Post/Author/DateTime	Post
chuff80 10-29-06, 11:37 AM	Okay, so here's a story about the group that I DM from yesterday. For the past 3 years the town the party lives in has been besieged by a barbarian tribe. Now, it's not normal for a group of barbarians to be disciplined enough for a siege, so they figure there's someone else leading the tribe. They talk to one of their NPC informants/mentors and he suggests that perhaps they can find out what's going on. It's supposed to be a reconnaisance mission, perhaps with a roleplaying moment where they try to talk the guy into leaving. Now, the party is lvls 4,4,5,5,6, and 6. The NPC leader is a Wiz 8 and he sleeps in a tent with the two barbarian chieftains (lvls 5,6, respectively). He's an enchanter so he has them under his thrall. The main enemy camp is about a mile from the city wall. 3 members of the party sneak into the camp, getting around the sentries because they are super sneaks (2 whisper gnomes and a changeling), find out where the guy is sleeping, etc. The Changeling stays in the camp for a day and finds out guard changes, who this guy is, etc. He has all of the info that he needs to bring back to the leaders of the town....but no, the party decides that they've had enough intrigue (we haven't had a battle in two sessions) and they're going to take this guy out themselves...in the middle of the night surrounded by over 300 barbarians. Their plan: hustle out to where the sentries are, then use a combination of the party wizard's invisibility sphere and one of the whisper gnome's silence 15' radius spells to hustle strait past the sentry, into the center of the camp, slit two holes in the side of the tent where the guy is sleeping. This happens silently because of the silence spell, and the rest of the party readies an action to hack the guy to pieces after the hole is cut. The wizard had an alarm spell set, but he didn't get to go as the PC's readied actions did 49 damage to him, and he only had 38 hp...and they still made no sound. They became visible for one round until the wizard cast invisibility sphere again, and the party high-tailed it out of there...still silently. I was flabberghasted. So many things could've gone wrong. I rolled a chance for the chieftains and the wizard to be awake, but they got away with it. I have to hand it to the party...they totally screwed me, and it was awesome!!
MareltEkiran 10-29-06, 01:51 PM	There are a few little problems with the thought process here. First of all, you cannot ready actions outside of combat. The enemy wizard would have been aware of intrusion, the moment his alarm spell went off and therefore be aware of the encounter (even if he can't see his attackers). They should have rolled initiative as usual. The moment one of them attack, they become visible and the wizard is no longer denied his dexterity bonus. Depending on his initiative roll, he then has a decent chance of surviving until his turn, in which case he should run out of his tent (realizing that he's in a silenced area) and raise a ruckus. But assuming that they do knive up the guy in silence... by the way, silence only lasts 1 minute per level, so they should have completed the entire operation within 6 minutes... Anyway, in that case, they have to recast invisibility sphere. But how exactly was the wizard planning to do that? He's in silenced area and all his allies must be within 10 ft. of him for it to work, including the person who has the silence centered on him. So unless he has a rod of metamagic: silent, it's not going to work that way. The silence would have to be dropped and then the invisibility sphere cast, before the silence spell can be raised again. In that case, there's a very good chance that someone could hear the verbal component of the spell.
Derren S. 10-29-06, 02:05 PM	And that is why every respectable army has guard dogs with them.
chuff80 10-29-06, 02:10 PM	I knew someone was going to come along and point out the inconsistencies. First of all: logically, I don't see how you couldn't ready an action outside of combat. That may be what the rules say, but I don't see why not. At the very least, the party should get a surprise round. They all attacked at the same time with their readied action, the wizard was flat footed and prone, so his armor class was like 9. Silence lasted 5 minutes. Plenty of time for them to get from where the sentries were to where the tent was. Most PC's are more than capable of running a 1/4 mile in less than a couple minutes. After they killed the wizard, the silence spell was dropped so that the wizard could cast his spell. It's a standard action, so it takes less than 6 seconds to do it, and then the other whisper gnome cast silence, so even if someone heard the quietly cast vocal component, the party was silenced and invisible again in moments, then they had 5 more minutes of silence, 6 minutes of invisibility to run the 1/2 mile or so it would have taken to be out of the sentry's sight range.
Derren S. 10-29-06, 02:14 PM	quietly cast vocal component Spells have to be casted in a strong voice.
chuff80 10-29-06, 02:18 PM	Spells have to be casted in a strong voice. Where does it say that?
Lord_Varos 10-29-06, 02:28 PM	Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast. Right there.
FrostHammer 10-29-06, 02:29 PM	I believe you must speak a spell loudly enough for someone to be able use to use it to attempt to identify your spell with a spellcraft attemtp up to 30 feet away.
wolf_mage 10-29-06, 02:38 PM	In the SRD: Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast. Now it's still going to work. What, 8 seconds of loud talking? Followed by invisibility... followed by silence. The guards will be alert and will rush to the scene, but remember, they had only four seconds to hear and turn to look at the PCs, and then 4 more seconds to locate them by ear alone. It's perfectly plausible that the PCs were fine.
TheWerg 10-29-06, 02:40 PM	About readying an action outside combat, look at PHB page 160. Two of the examples they use is most likely outside combat (shooting anyone who comes through the door and readying an action to swing your sword at whatever comes near when you open a door.) It says nowhere that you can't ready outside combat, just that it requires a standard action and you have to keep doing it every round.
Evalis 10-29-06, 03:18 PM	Pg 151 of PhB states that verbal must be used in a strong voice. Of course, it doesn't really specify how loud it should be, but one could rule out whispering verbal components. Essentially it should be spoken loud enough for all to hear slightly outside normal conversation range. As far as readying actions outside of combat is concerned... you are correct in that there should cases where you should be capable of doing so. But these need to be very specific. For example: A guard is waiting outside of a door with the intention to "Attack anything that opens the door". Since it was not specified who or what that guard would be attacking, he should be entitled to a surprise round, as long as he attacks ANYTHING that opens that door. Even his friends. If he specified attack only enemies opening the door, he should be entitled to a +4 initiative roll for the suprise round, but it should not be automatic. The case where the players attacked the wizard should fall under category number two, as they knew the mage was in there, and sleeping, but did not know his 'exact' location, nor did they have line of sight prior to the alarm being set off. Assuming that they cast the silence and invisibility sphere the next round, they still could have gotten away, even if the guards heard it; especially since they would have been slightly dazed upon being freed from the wizards enchantment spell. Though that still would likely have caused a ruckus in the camp. If there was only one exit, perhaps some of the barbarians could have built up a line to blockade the area. All in all though.. what they did could have still conceivably happened, so kudos to them. I presume however that part of the reason you are posting this is to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.. One: Slitting open the walls of the tent only worked ... because it was a tent. Next time have the wizard cast Secure Shelter. Much more comfortable too! Rope trick would work as well and is handy as a magical item. Or if the character has important items in a bag of holding, an arcane locked chest formed as a bed would work. Though that creates it's own set of problems Two: Invisiblity and Silence worked because everything there detected by sight or sound. Set up some patrolling guard dogs (or blindsense creatures) to root out invisible intruders. Additionally, at least one or more guards (depending on resources of the army) should have a goggles of seeing (See invisilibilty 1/day Cost: 2160) and dust of appearance (1800) Three: Lack of fortification. If for some reason the wizard, or any other character type does not have a secure shelter spell or scroll or other means of escaping the insecurity of a tent, then set up spikes around the outside of the tent so it can be accessed only by one direction, unless the intruders can navigate the spikes or waste time removing them. For non-spellcaster commanders stones of alarm (2700) are precious items! The Endurance feat and an extra set of 'backup armor' are must haves for fighters, while rogues can add a deadly sand trap and soveriegn glue to the spikes around the tent. Don't forget that simple structures can be crafted from hardened stone or mud, and set up around the sleeping area to provide some cover and reduce movement. A neat little makeshift fort of tower sheilds dug into the ground will waste at least one round for the attackers attempting to remove them. Anyway. Hope some of that helps you for next time against your dastardly intelligent players!
FriendoftheDork 10-29-06, 03:50 PM	Pg 151 of PhB states that verbal must be used in a strong voice. Of course, it doesn't really specify how loud it should be, but one could rule out whispering verbal components. Essentially it should be spoken loud enough for all to hear slightly outside normal conversation range. As far as readying actions outside of combat is concerned... you are correct in that there should cases where you should be capable of doing so. But these need to be very specific. For example: A guard is waiting outside of a door with the intention to "Attack anything that opens the door". Since it was not specified who or what that guard would be attacking, he should be entitled to a surprise round, as long as he attacks ANYTHING that opens that door. Even his friends. If he specified attack only enemies opening the door, he should be entitled to a +4 initiative roll for the suprise round, but it should not be automatic. The case where the players attacked the wizard should fall under category number two, as they knew the mage was in there, and sleeping, but did not know his 'exact' location, nor did they have line of sight prior to the alarm being set off. Assuming that they cast the silence and invisibility sphere the next round, they still could have gotten away, even if the guards heard it; especially since they would have been slightly dazed upon being freed from the wizards enchantment spell. Though that still would likely have caused a ruckus in the camp. If there was only one exit, perhaps some of the barbarians could have built up a line to blockade the area. All in all though.. what they did could have still conceivably happened, so kudos to them. I presume however that part of the reason you are posting this is to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.. One: Slitting open the walls of the tent only worked ... because it was a tent. Next time have the wizard cast Secure Shelter. Much more comfortable too! Rope trick would work as well and is handy as a magical item. Or if the character has important items in a bag of holding, an arcane locked chest formed as a bed would work. Though that creates it's own set of problems Two: Invisiblity and Silence worked because everything there detected by sight or sound. Set up some patrolling guard dogs (or blindsense creatures) to root out invisible intruders. Additionally, at least one or more guards (depending on resources of the army) should have a goggles of seeing (See invisilibilty 1/day Cost: 2160) and dust of appearance (1800) Three: Lack of fortification. If for some reason the wizard, or any other character type does not have a secure shelter spell or scroll or other means of escaping the insecurity of a tent, then set up spikes around the outside of the tent so it can be accessed only by one direction, unless the intruders can navigate the spikes or waste time removing them. For non-spellcaster commanders stones of alarm (2700) are precious items! The Endurance feat and an extra set of 'backup armor' are must haves for fighters, while rogues can add a deadly sand trap and soveriegn glue to the spikes around the tent. Don't forget that simple structures can be crafted from hardened stone or mud, and set up around the sleeping area to provide some cover and reduce movement. A neat little makeshift fort of tower sheilds dug into the ground will waste at least one round for the attackers attempting to remove them. Anyway. Hope some of that helps you for next time against your dastardly intelligent players! Good point. Basically, you need to prepare well for your villains, because it would be unlikely that a genious would not take every precaution against be assassinated at night. Really, sneaking into a camp and taking out someone is piece of cake for a typical 5-6th party, unless there are some sort of magical/supernatural defense (even creatures with scent works). This is especially easy for wizards, who have every spell they could want at their level, but others needs to rely on traps and allies to protect them... dogs work well, but also demons or devils (lots of spot and sometimes true seeing). And every general would have guards stationed at least outside his tent, if not within.
Toran_A_Sunder 10-29-06, 03:59 PM	Well I think the PCs did a fine job, and short of fudging a couple rolls or tossing in a wrench just to give them a challenge, I think the DM did a fine job handling it. Under verbal components it says a silence spell or gag makes it unable to use a verbal component. It does NOT say "speaking quietly also disrupts the spell." Or some such thing. I would have ruled along with the DM that it was fine. Perhaps "readied action" was the wrong phrase to use. Dont give the guy a hard time over semantics. Thats just silly. His party out-thought him, and did a damn good job doing it. Dont take that away from the OP or his party. Geez, everyone is a critic.
chuff80 10-29-06, 04:15 PM	The party did out think me, no doubt. My reason for posting, however, was simply to tell a humorous story. That particular wizard was merely a pawn anyway, and I didn't really care that he died. The army outside the city is there to keep the people terrified while the Unseelie Fey Court wreaks other havoc inside the walls. (In my campaign, the human city is a battleground between the Seelie and the Unseelie court). The army wasn't terribly well organized or run, they just needed a wizard who could keep the chieftains in line. The next step, since the army is probably going to break up, is for the Wild Hunt to find out who killed this wizard...and when they find out the PC's were the culprits of this (among other) unfortunate incidents, they are going to have a field day hunting down the party...it wouldn't be that difficult for the Fey to use magic to find out who did it, it's just a matter of whether I want to send spellcasters of that power against a party with an average level of 5. I liked the ideas for fortifying enemy encampments. If I really want a difficult assassination mission next time, I'll use some of your ideas. Guard dogs, fortifications...brilliant!!