Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paradisio 03-26-05, 03:14 AM	No one in my campaign is using tactics, me included. I'm new, I admit it, and my players are pretty overpowered for their level. But I am wondering, how cunning should the NPCs be? Should they use every possible means at their disposal? Sounds dumb, I know. It just seems pretty easy to make the NPC wizard teleport out at the last second and have some angry players or have the main room have a teleportation circle on the floot ;p Perhaps I'm too nice to be a DM, but I just find it hard to kill off my players when the monsters/NPCs are playing intelligently, perhaps its because they always whine and threaten to quit too.
wingGodzilla 03-26-05, 03:33 AM	Well, it is good that you reward good, smart play. But remember that as the DM you control the world around them. They are playing in YOUR story and sometimes bad things happen to good players. It is good that the players know that they CAN die and kill off one of them to prove it. That way they will really work hard to advoid that fate. Now if you are afraid that they will stop playing because you want to take control over your own game. That is something you have to work out for your-self. Good luck!
Darkhallow 03-26-05, 03:36 AM	2 things about the NPC's to consider, int/wis and level. NPC's with either low int/wis and/or level would be less likely to use all available means to kill the PC's. However if the NPC's int/wis and/or level is high, then have them throw every tactic u can think of against the PCs', doing this also will probably also force your players to use their own tactics or die against far weaker foes...regularly
Razoreface 03-26-05, 04:25 AM	Your players whine and threaten to quit if they die because they're dumb? :rolleyes: I guess it's sad that it's not that uncommon... players don't think they just stand and deliver, and get ****** off when that doesn't work. You'll just have to train them to act differently.
Nom 03-26-05, 08:05 AM	I find that one of the trickiest things as a DM is playing - and being seen to be playing - opponents as individuals. From the DM's meta-view, it's easy to move the opponents as a single unified team with pre-existing knowledge of the PCs. Don't. It's unrealistic, it spoils immersion, and it's unfair to the players. Ways to avoid it: * have the opponents communicate IC, yelling out to each other (just like the PCs should do). * on each opponent's turn, play that opponent as an individual. Only consider as much of the big picture as that opponent has access to (based on Int/Wis and any forethought / planning in the situation). This is a problem in my games, and these are the ideas I have come up with. I'd be interested to hear others.
FriendoftheDork 03-26-05, 10:11 AM	I agree Nom. About having an NPC wizard teleporting away, of course he should if he feels they're gonna lose! So would any smart PC wizard as well. But that's not always easy, a dimmensional anchor is a smart weapon fort PCs to use if they suspect a wizard trying to flee. In addition, grapples and such makes it more difficult to teleport (concentration DC 25). Yoy can even grapple in such a way to gag the wizard, check out the Skip's rules on grappling, on the main page.
Chosen of Bane 03-26-05, 10:35 AM	I was actually just talking about this with one of my players. I believe that you should absolutely play an NPC as intelligently as they are according to the INT score. I DM a game and play in another game with pretty much the same group. In the game I DM, the plays rag on me (in fun) about being brutal and killing of their PC's. This is definitely preventable with the use of tactics though, I don't "Cheat" and I only put them up to challenges that they can win or escape from unless they foolishly blunder into a death trap. I think the reason they bust on me about killing characters is because of the guy who DM's the other game... Although I enjoy the games he runs, I often feel he doesn't play the villains to the best of their ability. It kind of makes it feel like we can't lose and I for one enjoy the "oh crap, how are we going to make it out of this one" feeling. That feeling doesn't happen often in his games. Here's an example... Last session we fought a Glabrezu and our party is made up of 5 PC's, 3 level 8 PC's and 2 level 9 PC's. (warning bells should be going off already). So, we have a Paladin with a Holy Long Sword and another character with an evil outsider bane staff that also carries the good descriptor (like align weapon, no damage, just descriptor). Anyways... The Glabrezu charges into melee and starts hammering us. Then, we start hammering it back with buffed up characters using the above mentioned melee weapons. The Glabrezu has a INT of 16, not once did it teleport out of melee and blast us with Unholy Blight or Chaos Hammer. It stayed in melee the whole time. It utilized its power word stun on a character with a Whip instead of the PC's with the Holy/Good weapons. And, we were outside in a wide open field where it could easily have gotten out of melee and still hammered us with spells. Eventually we pounded the Glabrezu pretty badly and he fled with his teleportation. So, we ended up beating a CR 13 Demon when we were a level 8/9 party. It didn't utilize our lack of ranged weaponry (we have a halfing with a sling, no archer, and no wizard), it didn't utilize its chaos hammer or unholy blight, and it utilized its once aday uber-ability on a character that wasn't hurting it anyway. I know as a player, it makes me feel like "big deal", we just beat something that we shouldn't have because the DM wore the kid gloves for us. A 16 INT is like a 160 IQ, he should have been smart enough to avoid the holy weapons. I guess this is turning into a long post to say one thing. Play intelligent opponents intelligently, if not your PC's will get a feeling of invincibility and it takes a little away from the fun.
FreeTheSlaves 03-26-05, 11:48 AM	I have found that coupling open dice rolls with "by the book" PC generation makes for much more tactical combat. Delaying, readying, and information gathering (scout/social skill/knowledge) are essential for victory. Oh, and escape plans. Make double sure before commiting to a fight to the death, otherwise it's TPK time. Btw, a TPK should always be avoidable and as such should only occur after extremely bad decision making. When players don't have an over-abundance of HPs/stats, they tend to play smarter. When we used to go 'Uber' we had a lot more deaths and I think that was players just throwing their PC's about and expecting them to survive. As a DM, just play the NPC's as smart as they are and with an eye for self preservation, don't feel 'afraid' to negotiate/surrender/flee if appropriate. This adds a lot to the roleplaying of a session and is a great opportunity to highlight differences in alignment. So long as you eyeball the EL, the players should have the means to overcome/avoid the encounters. This approach only works if you adhere to the wealth guidelines.
Alynn 03-26-05, 12:10 PM	Always, and I mean ALWAYS play them according to their abilities, and use tactics... I don't mean just smart NPC's, I'm talking pack animals like wolves as well, wolves will concentrate the entire pack on one character to take it down, then move on... Ghouls, while not exactly bright, are still cunning enough to lure players in for a crude ambush. Here is a forinstance I currently use. This is a group (a frightenly large one) of goblinoid merceneries. Hobs the leaders, bugbears the muscle, and goblins the fodder... Goblins with no leadership, they attack helterskelter, and as soon as the battle seems to go badly for them, they take off... Goblins with Goblin leadership, won't run as long as the leader is alive, tactics are better, but usually involve flanking and surrounding the enemy. Goblins under hobgoblin leadership. Hobgoblins are the smart ones, complex tactics can and will be laid out, the hobgoblin uses ranged attacks or spells from behind his bugbear, orc, and goblin protectors, and depending on his orders, flees. Example of the latter, after setting up an ambush outside the door where he was staying the hobgoblin had the goblin squad just outside his door knock when they sighted the PC's. He then had his goblins flip over the tables an place them in front of the door and with a pile of javilins behind each table (10) they readied to throw them as the first person they see open the door. The orcs on either side of the door was there for 2 reasons, AoO if they charged in, if not, tanglefoot bags through the door at who they could see... The hobgoblin (level 1 rogue) had sleep arrows at the ready to take out whoever came through... Basically, if it wasn't for some lucky rolls on the PC's part (cleric missed by 3 of the four javelins, made his will save, next through was an elf so the sleep arrow had no affect), it could have really messed the PC's up... I have to be tactical with my group though, I'm current military, and I have 1 current, and 1 ex military in my group... if I don't use tactics, it doesn't have a chance...
Mirikon 03-26-05, 03:49 PM	No one in my campaign is using tactics, me included. I'm new, I admit it, and my players are pretty overpowered for their level. But I am wondering, how cunning should the NPCs be? Should they use every possible means at their disposal? Sounds dumb, I know. It just seems pretty easy to make the NPC wizard teleport out at the last second and have some angry players or have the main room have a teleportation circle on the floot ;p Perhaps I'm too nice to be a DM, but I just find it hard to kill off my players when the monsters/NPCs are playing intelligently, perhaps its because they always whine and threaten to quit too. Intelligent monsters should be played intelligently. An orc barbarian is just fine for the standard charge and chop system. Kobolds need to be ambushing people, and setting traps. Any mage who is high enough level to have it and doesn't have at least a Dimension Door scroll to get out of tense situations is a fool. As for the players whining if they die, that means your players need to be more careful and/or grow up, or you need to get new players. Yes, it sucks when your character dies. No, it isn't the end of the world. One way to deal with a PC death (if they can't afford Raise Dead, or they don't have anyone who owes them a favor that can afford it) is to take the player aside, and privately do the following scene. If they are nongood, this works well. If they are good, you can consider doing the second scene. DM: You awake in a strange place, lying naked on the floor of a high stone cave, lit by the glows of fire and molten rock coming through cracks in the stone floor. Before you is a throne made out of black stone. Upon it sits a creature of unspeakable evil, clearly an archfiend. In a deep, menacing voice, he says, "Come here, <Name>. I have been watching your pitiful band of adventurers for some time. I will give you this one chance to live, but from now on you will serve me." Add in some more dialog, basically to the effect of the PC now secretly working for the archfiend. Make it abundantly clear that this is a one time only offer. If the PC accepts, have the archfiend give the PC a mark of some kind, like a tatoo, in a place that would be normally out of sight. The mark will allow the fiend to keep track of his servant. Change the moral component of the PCs alignment to Evil. Make it clear that both PC and player are forbidden to reveal what has happened to the group. Return the PC to life at the start of his last level, with no other penalty. (So a level 2 PC would be reset to 1000 XP) For good, or good-leaning characters, you can use this alternate: DM: You awake in a strange place, lying naked on what appears to be a cloud. All around you there are clouds, and a bright white light. Before you is a throne, made out of solid gold, and glistening like the sun. Upon it sits a creature of incredible good, clearly an angel. In a soft, soothing voice, he says, "Come here, <Name>. I have been watching your noble band of adventurers for some time. I will give you this one chance to live, but from now on you will serve me." Add in some more dialog, basically to the effect of the PC now secretly working for the angel. Make it abundantly clear that this is a one time only offer. If the PC accepts, have the angel give the PC a mark of some kind, like a tatoo, in a place that would be normally out of sight. The mark will allow the angel to keep track of his servant. Make it clear that both PC and player are forbidden to reveal what has happened to the group. Return the PC to life at the start of his last level, with no other penalty. (So a level 2 PC would be reset to 1000 XP) Besides making the player less upset that he died, this approach also has the benefit of giving you an instant plot hook to get the party to do something. From time to time the Archfiend or Angel gives their servant a gaes to go on some kind of quest. Makes the player feel important, and it gets you on your way to the next adventure. Now, if you're feeling really evil, you can have the Archfiend masquerading as the Angel to try and trap good creatures into his service. But to be fair, give the player a will save to resist the illusion. Sure he'll probably fail, but there you go.
Zepherdragon 03-26-05, 07:20 PM	If you want to challenge yourself, take under powered characters, and use them to their full ability. You deffinatly have the upper hand when having an "equal" match because you usually have the home field advantage. Set your regular ECL one or two lower and go at it with all you got. It's more of an ego fizz if you whipe the floor with them with an encounter that they are supposed to handle and you don't have to feel guilty for it. It should also cut down on the player complaints because it could have been worse and the ECL is of their ability.
weasel fierce 03-27-05, 12:16 AM	Your game will benefit tremendously from playing NPC's and monsters "fully" If your players know that you wont kill them, they wont care, and that can easily escalate into players doing dumb trhings, since they know, theres no consequence. Its also a question of suspension of disbelief. If the enemy acts like they are real, the game will seem deeper and more worthwhile. Nothing wrong with the orc warlord beating it, while his pet trolls cover his retreat