Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Samariah 07-24-07, 09:00 PM	Okay, need some help guys. Here is the set up. I have been asked to DM for a group. Recently I introduced my son to D&D and he is part of the new group. Surprisingly his first charcter is a druid with a wolf companion, no biggie there. However, one of the other players in the group is a DM in his own right and I played in one of his games. His wife was the druid with the wolf companion in this case, and was the 'it' character. Her 'wolf' eventually got upgraded into a dire wolf, who had a girdle of giant strength around his neck. Not only that but she absolutely insisted on taking said wolf wherever, and I do mean wherever we went. We kept waiting for this fellow to rein her in and fix the problem but it never happened. All I'm saying is that no animal companion should have more hit points and attacks than the main tank! I wasn't the only person upset with the situation either. In the end after I had to wait for his wife, her cohort, her wolf, and a whole swarm of elementals to attack (elemental swarm) before I could get a chance to act, got to do something about once an hour. Finally decided it wasn't worth it anymore and left the group. Also swore if I ran a group with the druid/wolf thing wouldn't let it get out of hand. Enough backstory! New party, new campaign, no wife. Party comes to their first dungeon, and when I tell my son the wolf stays outside. Old DM pipes up and interjects until wolf gets to come :mad: :mad: :mad: what does a girl have to do, guys? Should I just outright nerf the wolf? Take DM aside and kindly remind him who is running the game? Tell him why I left the old one and why I have such a beef with the idea. I'm trying to be diplomatic here. Also trying to be just a little realistic. Having a hard time believing a 'wild' animal is going to something so totally against it's nature. Also will not bat an eye if I have to gank said wolf. Any ideas folks?
CeilingNinja 07-24-07, 09:08 PM	Wolves only get one attack a round... And no, don't nerf the wolf and don't make the druid keep him outside. The wolf is not a wild animal, he agrees to join the druid and go along with him, so going into dungeons is not a big problem. Putting unfair limitations on your players' characters is a good way to be seen as a jerk DM. It makes for hurt feelings and 'you're picking on me' a lot more than you'd want it.
Lawlicron 07-24-07, 09:09 PM	No, actually your wrong. Kind of funny huh? But not to you. Its a class feature. The old DM's wife might have not been calculating the bonus hit points right. Make sure you understand how those work before he gets there. But you shouldn't randomly deny him a class feature. Its like telling the fighter "No you can't use your first level feat, weapon focus in the dungeon!".
mtbOgre 07-24-07, 09:28 PM	However, one of the other players in the group is a DM in his own right and I played in one of his games. His wife was the druid with the wolf companion in this case, and was the 'it' character. Her 'wolf' eventually got upgraded into a dire wolf, who had a girdle of giant strength around his neck. Not only that but she absolutely insisted on taking said wolf wherever, and I do mean wherever we went. You need to decide what the rules in your campaign world are and stick to your guns. That said, any time you are going to deviate from the Rules as Written you need to inform the players clearly In Advance. The more in advance the better, in this case the time to bring it up was when the player was rolling the character up. You are trying to change a core class feature of the Druid and to drop that on the player mid game is simply unfair. I suggest that if this issue is so important to you that you sit down with the player and come up with a compromise. One possibility is to allow her to have an alternate class ability if she agrees to this then be generous because the AC is a great class feature.
Samariah 07-24-07, 09:32 PM	Just to clarify, I don't want to do away with AC, just don't want to see players get abusive with them.
Vharuck 07-24-07, 10:01 PM	You do know that a druid's animal companion can't become a dire wolf? You have to replace it with a dire wolf, and then it only gets abilities as a lower-level druid's companion. The wolf is nice, but not really game-breaking. Allow it, but follow the rules, and you'll be fine.
TheWerg 07-24-07, 10:18 PM	Yeah, well telling him his animal companion can't go into one of the cornerstones of D&D basically IS doing away with it. Honestly, the only time when it's not reasonable to have an animal companion along is when the party is involved in a social situation, like going to a tavern or party. Even then, it may be acceptable, depending on the situation (like a really cheap or strange tavern). Really, the animal companion is a crucial and fun part of playing a druid. Taking it away is making a class that's not especially fun to play (regardless of how powerful it is) and making it significantly less fun. No, I'm not saying that druids aren't fun, just that there are quite a few classes which are more fun. Still, you ARE the DM, and what you say goes; the other DM is out of line if he's bullying you around. However, there is truth in his words, and you should consider it. Also, both the dire wolf and many attacks are wrong. If you don't do the same thing, and read the rules instead, the wolf shouldn't get out of hand. Don't mean to be rude, but you need to hear the truth. As people have said, you're out of line as well.
Samariah 07-24-07, 10:56 PM	I don't think you're rude, I need the good and the bad. I'm still wet behind the ears as a DM and critism is as vital as praise. Just trying to get my facts straight so I can get a handle on the situation. Truly do want my son to come away from the game with a positive impression. Do not want to see him get coached along by munchkins trying to get him to use his wolf for stupid things like setting off traps, or conjure up celestial monkeys for the same reason. I think the best story I've heard about a similar situation, I heard from a player at a Con. In a game she was in her friend played a paladin who had a pony as a mount. Also a class feature. Everywhere they went she said, the paladin had to take that damn pony. Yes, even into dungeons. Eventually, she told me she had decided that the pony must die, and spent most of her time trying to figure out how to kill it.
TheWerg 07-24-07, 11:14 PM	I don't think you're rude, I need the good and the bad. I'm still wet behind the ears as a DM and critism is as vital as praise. Just trying to get my facts straight so I can get a handle on the situation. Truly do want my son to come away from the game with a positive impression. Do not want to see him get coached along by munchkins trying to get him to use his wolf for stupid things like setting off traps, or conjure up celestial monkeys for the same reason. Yeah, that's a valid concern. However, I would just stress to him that his animal companion is a very loyal creature with which his character has an intensely personal relationship. Explain to him that that wolf is likely his best friend in the world, and, if you think it'll help, you should consider having him write a specific backstory about how he met his animal companion. That should help prevent him from using it as a tool while allowing him to reap the benefits of having it. I hope both of you find a good way to enjoy the game.
nightside_samurai 07-24-07, 11:38 PM	Animal companions can also add a lot to the party in regards to humor as well. I remember the first time I played a Druid in a tabletop game, he was a Halfing with a Camel animal companion. We named him Imhotep because Bilbobob (the character) had gotten him in Egypt. I will admit, I abused that damn camel so bad but it great fun. He even took down a giant stone dinosaur on his own and saved the party. Eventually I had to resummon so many of them that they no longer sent the good ones. I started getting camels with obscene words painted on them that had either no hump at all or 3 + It was a lot of fun :D
Bloodbat 07-24-07, 11:38 PM	A druid's animal companion is likely to follow him into a dungeon and it can be a lot of fun for everyone. More importantly, you do not need to worry about it becoming overpowered. You are the DM and you can limit its powers if it suddenly seems to be dominating the game (which, if you are aware of the rules and stick to them will not happen). I suggest reading the rules and jotting some notes for yourself to cite if the other DM starts his meddling. You might want to speak with the other DM if he continues to interfere with your game. Although it is nice to have someone help out when you are new at DMing, make sure it is still your game and not the other DM's. Back to the wolf: consider how the wolf will function in your game; it can actually be a lot of fun without exaggerating its powers or restricting it. With a wolf, you can incorporate smells into your game (wolf acts funny near a door/room/hallway due to some smell inside; wolf acts funny outside due to some scent; wolf will not enter a specific room with a certain monster type; etc.) or wolf tips off group to approaching danger due to good hearing (but maybe also tips off enemies because it growls too loudly) or it flees from fire attacks (like most animals), etc. Think of the complex interactions if and when the group meets werewolves (werewolves like the group because of the wolf or hate the group because of the wolf). The key is to allow the wolf a role in the game but a minor one. You can assure that role if you plan ahead.
Gaverson 07-24-07, 11:54 PM	Plus, leaving an animal companion outside of a dungeon is a quick way to have a dead animal companion. You think its safe to leave the horses tied up to a tree outside the dungeon while you explore inside? Several things could happen, monsters wander by and eat them... Someone comes along and steals them, or both. A wolf is by no means a game breaker. Make the druid spend the time teaching the wolfs tricks and such when the group camps and goes into town. A good thing about wolves are the trip...and anyone that owns a huskie knows that its instinctual. I would help the druid build a relationship to the animal, as suggested before, with a background story so it doesn't become a "Chicken trap detector." Its a loyal friend to the druid and be treated as such. If the druid treats it poorly, the would could up and leave, perhaps seeking a better druid... Gaverson
Kouk 07-25-07, 03:33 AM	There is no real reason that an animal companion should have to wait outside a dungeon, what exactly is the point of having it if it is afraid of the dark? Animals with a single natural attack don't get iterative attacks even if their BAB would otherwise allow it. Read about the monster rules and such in the Monster Manual, and be sure you understand what exactly an animal companion gets and does not get. Animal Companions do eventually get iterative attacks, though a wolf would still be limited to 2 (natural) attacks for the rest of its life. Animal Companions gain most benefits of leveling up, but they do not get bonus ability score points at every 4th HD, their stat boosts are provided by being an animal companion. It's up to you to allow equipment, but generally most animals can wear amulets/collars at the least. You might also consider how strictly you want to consider the Handle Animal skill as relating to animal companions. I believe strictly speaking you must order the companions to do things using their tricks, though it is a free action as long as you are not "pushing" them. You might consider requiring the companions to be taught to attack all creatures with 2 tricks, otherwise aberrations and elementals and such will be avoided. You can have the player roll for animal companion HP, or just assign that it has average HP to help ensure it doesn't have more HP than the main tank. Generally, animal companions are as much a part of the druid class as are the spells, and you should not attempt to remove it. An animal companion is practically a cohort though, and any additional characters will slow down combat. You can disallow the Druid class, or else find some kind of replacement for the companion if it gets in the way of your game enjoyment.
Asmodeur 07-25-07, 03:55 AM	Animal Companions do eventually get iterative attacks, though a wolf would still be limited to 2 (natural) attacks for the rest of its life. Where do you see this?
Max Octavious Xavier 07-25-07, 10:57 AM	Animal Companion (Ex): A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures are also available: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind. A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished. A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals (see below). Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.) I have always played that an animal companion is still, for the most part, a wild animal. A wild animal that considers the druid to be the packs (for a wolf) alpha male/female. This means it won't typically go into towns with the druid and still acts like a wild animal. They are not pets/domesticated. That is why I typically choose a usually domesticated animal (dog, horse, etc...) as a companion. Just my :twocents:. I heard this somewhere and thought it was appropriate. On the difference between a dog and a "domesticated" wolf. If a dog chews up your couch and you scold him, he is truly sorry. If a "domesticated" wolf chews up your couch and you scold him, he is truly sorry...about your unhealthy attachment to the couch.
olshanski_home 07-25-07, 11:08 AM	Probably already been said: When a companion animal gains hit dice, it doesn't grow in size as do normally advancing monsters. A wolf companion stays medium size no matter how many HD it has. A dire wolf stays large, but it can only be acquired by an advanced druid.
vonklaude 07-25-07, 11:23 AM	Just to clarify, I don't want to do away with AC, just don't want to see players get abusive with them. By RAW you can use Handle Animal to define what the Wolf can do. The animal gets X tricks (plus some bonus tricks per level), and anything else requires a 'push' check (+4 circumstantial). The reason this is useful is that it makes it clear what the wolf can and cannot do. Your son must stipulate in advance, and the definitions of the tricks give you considerable ability to regulate without railroading. For example, I insist on Heel, if they want the animal to follow them into a Dungeon, Down, if they want the animal to not attack as it sees fit, Track, if they want the animal to use its Scent to their advantage, Attack if they want the animal to attack targets of their choosing. Note that enacting a trick takes a skill check and that the DC goes up if the animal is hurt. Pushing the animal is doing anything it isn't trained for, like going into a Dungeon if it hasn't learned to Heel. I apply circumstantials to push checks, countering the Druid +4, as I feel wise. This really controls very well the issue you have. -vk
StSteven 07-25-07, 11:48 AM	I have a 7th level Druid with a brown bear AC. She has taught it the tricks needed to get it to do what she wants. 2 attack tricks, heel, guard, etc. That bear has more HP than anyone else in the party, but this really isn't a problem, as the armor class isn't that great. When you take that into consideration, the bear can't take as much punishment as the tank.
Kensan_Oni 07-25-07, 11:57 AM	animal companions are not all that, trust me. However, the problem you had was you were seeing a druid at the end game level (17th level+). Yes, they have a marvelous ability to have huge amounts of swarms, and if the NPC's don't have banish, well... it's their own problem. However, really, they're not that bad. Just remember to reinforce the animal compainon rules (They don't like abberations/undead, several other up to interpitation things), and you'll be fine.
nlentz88 07-25-07, 12:11 PM	A couple of notes: 1. Standard Action. Using the handle animal skill to tell an animal companion to perform a trick is a standard action. If the druid wants his animal companion to attack in a battle, that means the druid can't attack that turn. 2. Magical Items. I believe the DMG says most magical items shrink or grow to fit their new owner. However, I think this is silly and don't allow it in my games. A belt of giant strength made to fit a human shouldn't be able to shrink down to the size of a Pseudodragon. Even if you allow the shrink/grow ability of magic items, you should make sure the item is worn in the correct slot. A belt of giant strength should not work when put around the neck of a dire wolf. Would you allow the belt to work if a PC (an elf, say) put a belt of giant strength around his neck? Keeping these things in mind may help you keep the animal companion from taking over the game.
Lawlicron 07-25-07, 12:19 PM	Even if you allow the shrink/grow ability of magic items, you should make sure the item is worn in the correct slot. A belt of giant strength should not work when put around the neck of a dire wolf. Would you allow the belt to work if a PC (an elf, say) put a belt of giant strength around his neck? I think the belt around the neck was just a flavor thing. The Dire Wolf could have worn it around its waist, but it would look awkward. Its not like it was going to matter.
StSteven 07-25-07, 12:19 PM	A couple of notes: 1. Standard Action. Using the handle animal skill to tell an animal companion to perform a trick is a standard action. If the druid wants his animal companion to attack in a battle, that means the druid can't attack that turn. I didn't think that you needed to use a trick to get the AC to attack, but you do need to use it to get the AC to attack what you want. Edit: I can see that this probably isn't the case after reviewing the handle animal skill again, but the AC isn't going to stand there and watch the druid be attacked and not do anything IMO. Also, for a druid to handle their AC it is a free action. From the SRD: Action Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while pushing an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.) For tasks with specific time frames noted above, you must spend half this time (at the rate of 3 hours per day per animal being handled) working toward completion of the task before you attempt the Handle Animal check. If the check fails, your attempt to teach, rear, or train the animal fails and you need not complete the teaching, rearing, or training time. If the check succeeds, you must invest the remainder of the time to complete the teaching, rearing, or training. If the time is interrupted or the task is not followed through to completion, the attempt to teach, rear, or train the animal automatically fails.
Lazigothi 07-25-07, 12:20 PM	I have always played that an animal companion is still, for the most part, a wild animal. A wild animal that considers the druid to be the packs (for a wolf) alpha male/female. This means it won't typically go into towns with the druid and still acts like a wild animal. They are not pets/domesticated. That is why I typically choose a usually domesticated animal (dog, horse, etc...) as a companion. Just my :twocents:. I heard this somewhere and thought it was appropriate. On the difference between a dog and a "domesticated" wolf. If a dog chews up your couch and you scold him, he is truly sorry. If a "domesticated" wolf chews up your couch and you scold him, he is truly sorry...about your unhealthy attachment to the couch. Under this scenario, it seems to conflict with the "wild" nature of wolves, which are not to travel solo. In wolf packs the only reason why wolves separate from the pack are to rear pups (waiting for the pups to be old enough to join the pack), or when wolves reach an old enough age to leave and form their own packs. If there are no pups, the wolf animal companion wouldn't otherwise abandon their alpha. They are pack animals and stay with the pack. If there's a situation you wouldn't see reason for the wolf to enter somewhere, I'd think the Druid wouldn't want to go either. Ergo, if you assume the wolf would dislike the Dungeon or going in a tavern, the Druid should stay outside as well. Keep in mind that Druids just don't enter dungeons without a good reason. If there's a good reason to interest a Druid to enter a Dungeon or a town/ tavern, the wolf will always accompany the alpha.
Skrylarin 07-25-07, 12:24 PM	I hate to tell you Your wrong with the hole standerd action thing but you our. It is a Free action for a druid or a ranger to command there AC. Anyways AC's suck without Ethier A: A Druid Spending most there money on them to get them special made items. Or B: Spending all there spells to buff them. I think you just ran into a DM That broke the rules to keep his wife happy........ I'm betting 90% of the charcter sheet was bogus !!! HE HE well hope you come to learn Wild Shape is wayyyyyyyyy worse then and AC will ever be. Thank you and good luck.
StSteven 07-25-07, 12:26 PM	Keep in mind that Druids just don't enter dungeons without a good reason. I always thought that the player wanting their druid to enter a dungeon was a good reason for the druid to enter the dungeon.
Lazigothi 07-25-07, 12:27 PM	A couple of notes: 1. Standard Action. Using the handle animal skill to tell an animal companion to perform a trick is a standard action. If the druid wants his animal companion to attack in a battle, that means the druid can't attack that turn. <snip> This is wrong: Action Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while pushing an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.) Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks. SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Handle_Animal_%28SRD_Skill%29)
Lazigothi 07-25-07, 12:36 PM	I always thought that the player wanting their druid to enter a dungeon was a good reason for the druid to enter the dungeon. This is an assumption. Unless the OP can clarify the story and motivations, I have personally come upon players who have no clue how to play Druids, playing them just as bloodthirsty-greedy mercs as Thieves and Fighters hell bent on plunder and fame. (Something I would not allow in my game) A druid would be concerned about balance and not personal materialism and selfishness: halting the encroachment of unnatural things, or spreading the influence of natural things.
Onikani 07-25-07, 12:42 PM	By RAW you can use Handle Animal to define what the Wolf can do. The animal gets X tricks (plus some bonus tricks per level), and anything else requires a 'push' check (+4 circumstantial). The reason this is useful is that it makes it clear what the wolf can and cannot do. Your son must stipulate in advance, and the definitions of the tricks give you considerable ability to regulate without railroading. For example, I insist on Heel, if they want the animal to follow them into a Dungeon, Down, if they want the animal to not attack as it sees fit, Track, if they want the animal to use its Scent to their advantage, Attack if they want the animal to attack targets of their choosing. Note that enacting a trick takes a skill check and that the DC goes up if the animal is hurt. Pushing the animal is doing anything it isn't trained for, like going into a Dungeon if it hasn't learned to Heel. I apply circumstantials to push checks, countering the Druid +4, as I feel wise. This really controls very well the issue you have. QFT. This is really, truley, awesome advice. Listen to this man. And give him cookies. :cookie:
DaidojiTaidoru 07-25-07, 02:27 PM	This is an assumption. Unless the OP can clarify the story and motivations, I have personally come upon players who have no clue how to play Druids, playing them just as bloodthirsty-greedy mercs as Thieves and Fighters hell bent on plunder and fame. (Something I would not allow in my game) A druid would be concerned about balance and not personal materialism and selfishness: halting the encroachment of unnatural things, or spreading the influence of natural things. :confused: The requirements for the Druid are to revere nature. What they do in their free time is largely irrelevant. And looting everything not nailed down, on fire, and in another dimension is a requirement for a successful organization/character. Druid orders who don't do that rapidly become food for team monster. As for the AC (and the OP), the rules for animal companions are well written out. They have a mass of tricks and the druid pretty much can tell them what to do as a free action. Druids are just powerful. Comes with being a divine caster. Let them waste their time focusing on the puppy. It keeps them from learning the true power of the class.
Karui_Kage 07-25-07, 02:56 PM	You do know that a druid's animal companion can't become a dire wolf? You have to replace it with a dire wolf, and then it only gets abilities as a lower-level druid's companion. The wolf is nice, but not really game-breaking. Allow it, but follow the rules, and you'll be fine. The issues of a wolf advancing in size, and the handle animal rules have already been covered, but I wanted to address this. By RAW, there is no way for a wolf to 'become' a dire wolf, this is correct. However, without changing any mechanics, a DM could still allow a player's wolf to 'grow' into a dire wolf. Let's take a Druid, who can have a Wolf at level 1, and a Dire Wolf at level 7. Druid level 1-6: Character has Wolf, that advances by the table in terms of Druid level. Druid level 7+: Character has a Dire Wolf, that now advances by the table in terms of Druid level -6. So the transition comes that, at level 6, we have a Wolf who has Hit Dice, Str/Dex, etc. for a level 6 Druid. Then at level 7, we have a Dire Wolf who has Hit Dice, Str/Dex, etc. for a level 1 Druid. Nothing really broken mechanically, and it allows a Druid to keep his/her animal companion for a lot longer than usual. As for the whole 'suddenly its large' issue? Just say its been growing the entire time, and only now hit the Large size category. The only other issue are Tricks. A wolf of a level 6 druid has bonus tricks, a dire wolf of a level 1 does not. Not a big deal, in my opinion, it's only a few tricks. So yes, by RAW, it's not really possible. It isn't very hard, or stressful on the system, to houserule a minor 'advancing' thing though.
Lazigothi 07-25-07, 03:00 PM	:confused: The requirements for the Druid are to revere nature. What they do in their free time is largely irrelevant. And looting everything not nailed down, on fire, and in another dimension is a requirement for a successful organization/character. Druid orders who don't do that rapidly become food for team monster. <snip> I disagree. I envision Druids as the embodiment of Nature, where they do more than simply revere it. Anyone can revere nature, but Druids become the personification of it, they become the force of Nature as it should be and desires to be. Druids receive their powers based on the assistance Druids give to nature. I also think a Druid can handle anything in my game while remaining in character.
Samariah 07-25-07, 07:54 PM	Awesome advice guys! I am planning on copying the AC rules and keeping them with me, (along with the page no. and the book they came from) so there isn't anymore griping. Or if there is they can always look them up. :D