Broken Bones and Healing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Broken Bones and Healing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dichotomy
01-13-05, 03:04 AM Greetings all,

I was wondering how any of you handle broken bones in a fantasy setting with healing. Here is the "problem" I am having:

My players (three 1st-level characters) are going to be tracking some kobolds as part of a "hunting party" trying to save some kidnapped children. Since they are just normal people in the village, they aren't going out alone. Of course, they need to end up alone to start them on their paths as budding heroes. With them will be a slightly higher-level fighter and two non-combatants (the fighter's son and his friend, that both end up balking at combat).
The idea is that at some time in a combat the fighter is going to break a leg or something and no longer be able to continue. He will scold his wimpy son and friend (the guy is not really nice), make them build a litter to carry him home, and beg the PCs to continue (how heroic ;)).

I think this makes for a good story, but it "goes to pot" if simple healing would fix the fighter's leg. How would you guys/gals handle the situation?

Thanks.
Derren S.
01-13-05, 03:16 AM Imc healing would take care of that, so the obvious solution is that in your game you rule that a simple cure spell is not enough to heal broken bones.
Vharuck
01-13-05, 03:26 AM The SRD never states that cure doesn't mend broken bones, but that Regeneration can do this. Unless one of your PCs can cast Regeneration, you're fine.
ThePo
01-13-05, 03:28 AM IMC broken bones are healed by simple healing but in your game if it's low level you can rule that the healing available to the PC's is not sufficient to mend a truly mangled leg in the time they have. Easy.

Only time broken bones came up was when the wizard was captured by werewolves in one of my games. He broke free once and cast a few spells cuz he had ranks in escape artist. So my werewolf lord broke his arms, legs and jaw and burnt his tounge with a red hot ember to cause it to swell everyday.

Needless to say when i asked the wizard what he did he just looked at me and said. "I wait for my group to rescue me I guess."
Aeromus
01-13-05, 04:24 AM People don't get broken bones in D&D....

I mean the HP system is arbitrary (spelling) meaning the HP represents not only health but, stamina, willingness to keep fighting ect.

So Cure spells DO NOT heal bones that are broken...as said regeneration does. However a heal check then a healing spell will fix it.

You'll be fine.
Morka
01-13-05, 10:31 AM Have him be severly poisoned. Ability score damaged return at the rate of 1 per day, so if the fighter's strength or dexterity suddenly become 4 instead of 17, then he's no longer a fighter!
Have them meet a huge spider. The fighter can manage to make it flee, but in the process he is poisonned. The spider could later be useful (against kobolds) or dangerous.
PaladinSix
01-13-05, 11:28 AM Something I use in my game is the idea that critical hits cause some type of semi-permanent injury (like a broken bone) which incurs negative modifiers until healed, either through normal or magical means. For instance, to use your example, a critical hit to the thigh might not cause enough damage to kill but could break the leg, preventing someone from walking for a while.

Of course, this can make combat more deadly and more realistic, so that may not be what you are going for. However, if you use a rule like this, I would also suggest making such wounds curable only by a Cure Critical Wounds spell or better. That is, since hit points are abstract and to a certain extent reflect stamina, combat ability, etc., a Cure Light or Moderate Wounds might be enough to restore normal losses. Serious, debilitating injuries like broken bones, however, would require something of greater power. After all, the spell is called Cure Critical Wounds. Normal healing, over time, should also accomplish this as well, but it might require the care of a qualified physician.
Dichotomy
01-13-05, 11:48 AM Thanks all,

I had not realized that Regeneration specifically says that it mends broken bones. That does seem to imply, through omission, that Cure spells do not. In the alternative, though, poisoning him may work well too. I will have to think on that.

Thanks again.
Thoronmir
01-13-05, 11:54 AM Something I use in my game is the idea that critical hits cause some type of semi-permanent injury (like a broken bone) which incurs negative modifiers until healed, either through normal or magical means. For instance, to use your example, a critical hit to the thigh might not cause enough damage to kill but could break the leg, preventing someone from walking for a while.About two years ago, I played in a campaign with a DM who used a similar rule. He created a Feat that allowed a PC to convert Critical damage to “Status Effect” damage. Anyone with that Feat had the option whenever they rolled a successful Critical Hit … inflict extra HP damage according to the RAW or forego the extra HP damage and instead select a Status Effect. The available Status Effects varied and the player was free to chose any Effect he wanted (his choice of Effect determined the location of the blow). For example, you could Stun your opponent with a head shot. If you shot an arrow into someone’s leg, they would suffer reduced Movement for a while. You could reduce your foe’s Attack rolls by 1 with a strike to his arm. Most of the Effects lasted for 1 or 2 Rounds (only reduced Movement lasted longer).

I can say that this Feat came in handy several times during the campaign, without seeming overpowering. I recall one instance when I was trying to stop an NPC from fleeing. I happened to Crit him with an arrow, so I chose to make it a leg shot and slowed him down enough that I could overtake him. In that case, even the x3 damage for an arrow was unlikely to kill him. I remember our Fighter opting to Stun an opponent in order to give our casters time to cast buffs.

Since the Feat only comes into play upon a successful Critical Hit, you might never actually use it (I suppose it’s possible to never Crit). But I’d probably take the Feat again if I ever played in another campaign with that DM.
alecthemad
01-13-05, 11:58 AM For the purposes of the story I think a broken leg is good enough. To prevent player protests let them know that in this and future adventures you may bend rules sometimes for dramatic effect.

If they protest you have a simple answer "dramatic effect" which should silence them (as long as you are not too unfair about it.) In the star wars RPG energy weapons have enough energy to shoot an unlimited amount of times until the game master believes it is dramatically appropriate.

If you want rules as written, I like the poison ideas state above.
Thoronmir
01-13-05, 12:05 PM I agree Alec. I’ve certainly taken such artistic license in describing decapitating or eviscerating death blows when the RAW don’t recognize such effects. I don’t think the OP’s problem is having the NPC break his leg. I thought his concern was how to make sure the PC healer doesn’t just drop a Cure to knit that tibia back into one piece. I have no problem telling the players that an NPC suffered some malady that the players can’t suffer under the RAW. I have a problem telling the PCs they can’t use their abilities to correct the malady. But it sounds like the OP has found his answer.
Derren S.
01-13-05, 12:11 PM For the purposes of the story I think a broken leg is good enough. To prevent player protests let them know that in this and future adventures you may bend rules sometimes for dramatic effect.

If they protest you have a simple answer "dramatic effect" which should silence them (as long as you are not too unfair about it.)

Very bad idea imo. A DM has to learn to create dramatic effects without ignoring rules.
Even a DM can't simply turn rules on and off when he thinks it is cool.
Thoronmir
01-13-05, 01:13 PM Very bad idea imo. A DM has to learn to create dramatic effects without ignoring rules.
Even a DM can't simply turn rules on and off when he thinks it is cool.Context is important. I try to adhere to the rule that NPCs can’t do anything the PC’s can’t do (the rest of the “world” has to follow the same rules as the PCs). But there’s nothing wrong with letting the players know that the DM will, on occasion, take such liberties for roleplaying purposes (as long as the DM’s penchant for descriptive narrative does not impede the PCs).

In this case, the DM has decided that the Fighter will not accompany the party into the Kobolds’ lair. Why the Fighter (and his litter bearers) stays behind is a roleplaying issue, not a game mechanics issue. I can accept a system of combat rules that does not allow for bones to break. I cannot accept an entire world in which no one ever breaks a bone.

In this context, I see no harm with the DM’s plan. However, like all other spices, such “flavor” becomes unsavory when used to excess.
alecthemad
01-13-05, 01:31 PM Very bad idea imo. A DM has to learn to create dramatic effects without ignoring rules.
Even a DM can't simply turn rules on and off when he thinks it is cool.

Every DM has to feel out his group. I am giving suggestions based upon my experience. My experience has been that players will let you get away with a lot to advance a good story and to increase dramatic tension.

Many dramatic effects can easily be created within the rules. Many are not even touched upon by the rules, but sometimes the rules can be bent or broken if your group is willing to play along.

Besides all he is doing is ruling that a broken leg requires a much higher level spell than the PC's can cast. He has broken the rules regarding the very basis of damage in this game which is that it is non-specific. This is not MERPS, GURP, Role Master, ICE or any of a number of stupid overly complex combat/damage rule systems. By the very nature of his request he has already turned the rules off for effect.
Didge
01-13-05, 01:59 PM Ok, first off...

Are any of your PC's clerics? Because if they aren't the whole issue of cure spells isn't relevant.

However, if one of the PC's is playing a cleric then I'd suggest the following:

As the group is getting ready to leave...

NPC (Fighter): "Ok everyone, there is a series of caves in the low hills a day or two from here. That's as good a place as any to start looking. Be careful, the ground is loose in this area and the brush can hide all sorts of nasty surprises."

Later...ask for listen checks from the group. Whoever rolled highest (If the PC's rolled pathetically low, have the fighter hear this and pass on the passage below.

DM: You hear faint screaming from the distance. The sound is extremely muffled and you're unsure you even heard it in the first place.

NPC (Fighter): "Those screams sound like Johanson's little girl, they're coming from the caves which are just a little ways away, we'll follow along this ridge which will lead us straight to them and...AHHHH!"

At this point introduce either the poisonous creature (which targets the fighter as he's the point man and has disturbed the creatures nest, hidden beneath the loose brush) or he steps wrong and the brush gives way as he slides down a steep embankment (at least 50' or so) and lands poorly on his leg, breaking it.

Now, if you go the poisonous creature route, have the NPC fighter say something like;

NPC (Fighter): "I'll handle this creature, go...find out what's making that scream. Hurry!" Of course his son will stay to help out ol' Dad, as will his friend.

If you decide he fell down the steep embankment have him say something like;

NPC (Fighter): "I'm hurt, I think my leg may be broken. Go, I'll be fine...<insert name of son and friend here> will help me back up this embankment, won't you? (glares at them until they mutter assurances of their assistance) Find out if that scream really is Dalieth, Johanson's little girl. Hurry!"

Either way you go, you force the PC's to choose the scream or to help the NPC.

Any good PC will naturally run towards the scream of a little girl. It's in their contract as adventurers. ;)

If they try to help the Fighter have him insist/plead that they go help Dalieth.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dichotomy 01-13-05, 03:04 AM	Greetings all, I was wondering how any of you handle broken bones in a fantasy setting with healing. Here is the "problem" I am having: My players (three 1st-level characters) are going to be tracking some kobolds as part of a "hunting party" trying to save some kidnapped children. Since they are just normal people in the village, they aren't going out alone. Of course, they need to end up alone to start them on their paths as budding heroes. With them will be a slightly higher-level fighter and two non-combatants (the fighter's son and his friend, that both end up balking at combat). The idea is that at some time in a combat the fighter is going to break a leg or something and no longer be able to continue. He will scold his wimpy son and friend (the guy is not really nice), make them build a litter to carry him home, and beg the PCs to continue (how heroic ;)). I think this makes for a good story, but it "goes to pot" if simple healing would fix the fighter's leg. How would you guys/gals handle the situation? Thanks.
Derren S. 01-13-05, 03:16 AM	Imc healing would take care of that, so the obvious solution is that in your game you rule that a simple cure spell is not enough to heal broken bones.
Vharuck 01-13-05, 03:26 AM	The SRD never states that cure doesn't mend broken bones, but that Regeneration can do this. Unless one of your PCs can cast Regeneration, you're fine.
ThePo 01-13-05, 03:28 AM	IMC broken bones are healed by simple healing but in your game if it's low level you can rule that the healing available to the PC's is not sufficient to mend a truly mangled leg in the time they have. Easy. Only time broken bones came up was when the wizard was captured by werewolves in one of my games. He broke free once and cast a few spells cuz he had ranks in escape artist. So my werewolf lord broke his arms, legs and jaw and burnt his tounge with a red hot ember to cause it to swell everyday. Needless to say when i asked the wizard what he did he just looked at me and said. "I wait for my group to rescue me I guess."
Aeromus 01-13-05, 04:24 AM	People don't get broken bones in D&D.... I mean the HP system is arbitrary (spelling) meaning the HP represents not only health but, stamina, willingness to keep fighting ect. So Cure spells DO NOT heal bones that are broken...as said regeneration does. However a heal check then a healing spell will fix it. You'll be fine.
Morka 01-13-05, 10:31 AM	Have him be severly poisoned. Ability score damaged return at the rate of 1 per day, so if the fighter's strength or dexterity suddenly become 4 instead of 17, then he's no longer a fighter! Have them meet a huge spider. The fighter can manage to make it flee, but in the process he is poisonned. The spider could later be useful (against kobolds) or dangerous.
PaladinSix 01-13-05, 11:28 AM	Something I use in my game is the idea that critical hits cause some type of semi-permanent injury (like a broken bone) which incurs negative modifiers until healed, either through normal or magical means. For instance, to use your example, a critical hit to the thigh might not cause enough damage to kill but could break the leg, preventing someone from walking for a while. Of course, this can make combat more deadly and more realistic, so that may not be what you are going for. However, if you use a rule like this, I would also suggest making such wounds curable only by a Cure Critical Wounds spell or better. That is, since hit points are abstract and to a certain extent reflect stamina, combat ability, etc., a Cure Light or Moderate Wounds might be enough to restore normal losses. Serious, debilitating injuries like broken bones, however, would require something of greater power. After all, the spell is called Cure Critical Wounds. Normal healing, over time, should also accomplish this as well, but it might require the care of a qualified physician.
Dichotomy 01-13-05, 11:48 AM	Thanks all, I had not realized that Regeneration specifically says that it mends broken bones. That does seem to imply, through omission, that Cure spells do not. In the alternative, though, poisoning him may work well too. I will have to think on that. Thanks again.
Thoronmir 01-13-05, 11:54 AM	Something I use in my game is the idea that critical hits cause some type of semi-permanent injury (like a broken bone) which incurs negative modifiers until healed, either through normal or magical means. For instance, to use your example, a critical hit to the thigh might not cause enough damage to kill but could break the leg, preventing someone from walking for a while.About two years ago, I played in a campaign with a DM who used a similar rule. He created a Feat that allowed a PC to convert Critical damage to “Status Effect” damage. Anyone with that Feat had the option whenever they rolled a successful Critical Hit … inflict extra HP damage according to the RAW or forego the extra HP damage and instead select a Status Effect. The available Status Effects varied and the player was free to chose any Effect he wanted (his choice of Effect determined the location of the blow). For example, you could Stun your opponent with a head shot. If you shot an arrow into someone’s leg, they would suffer reduced Movement for a while. You could reduce your foe’s Attack rolls by 1 with a strike to his arm. Most of the Effects lasted for 1 or 2 Rounds (only reduced Movement lasted longer). I can say that this Feat came in handy several times during the campaign, without seeming overpowering. I recall one instance when I was trying to stop an NPC from fleeing. I happened to Crit him with an arrow, so I chose to make it a leg shot and slowed him down enough that I could overtake him. In that case, even the x3 damage for an arrow was unlikely to kill him. I remember our Fighter opting to Stun an opponent in order to give our casters time to cast buffs. Since the Feat only comes into play upon a successful Critical Hit, you might never actually use it (I suppose it’s possible to never Crit). But I’d probably take the Feat again if I ever played in another campaign with that DM.
alecthemad 01-13-05, 11:58 AM	For the purposes of the story I think a broken leg is good enough. To prevent player protests let them know that in this and future adventures you may bend rules sometimes for dramatic effect. If they protest you have a simple answer "dramatic effect" which should silence them (as long as you are not too unfair about it.) In the star wars RPG energy weapons have enough energy to shoot an unlimited amount of times until the game master believes it is dramatically appropriate. If you want rules as written, I like the poison ideas state above.
Thoronmir 01-13-05, 12:05 PM	I agree Alec. I’ve certainly taken such artistic license in describing decapitating or eviscerating death blows when the RAW don’t recognize such effects. I don’t think the OP’s problem is having the NPC break his leg. I thought his concern was how to make sure the PC healer doesn’t just drop a Cure to knit that tibia back into one piece. I have no problem telling the players that an NPC suffered some malady that the players can’t suffer under the RAW. I have a problem telling the PCs they can’t use their abilities to correct the malady. But it sounds like the OP has found his answer.
Derren S. 01-13-05, 12:11 PM	For the purposes of the story I think a broken leg is good enough. To prevent player protests let them know that in this and future adventures you may bend rules sometimes for dramatic effect. If they protest you have a simple answer "dramatic effect" which should silence them (as long as you are not too unfair about it.) Very bad idea imo. A DM has to learn to create dramatic effects without ignoring rules. Even a DM can't simply turn rules on and off when he thinks it is cool.
Thoronmir 01-13-05, 01:13 PM	Very bad idea imo. A DM has to learn to create dramatic effects without ignoring rules. Even a DM can't simply turn rules on and off when he thinks it is cool.Context is important. I try to adhere to the rule that NPCs can’t do anything the PC’s can’t do (the rest of the “world” has to follow the same rules as the PCs). But there’s nothing wrong with letting the players know that the DM will, on occasion, take such liberties for roleplaying purposes (as long as the DM’s penchant for descriptive narrative does not impede the PCs). In this case, the DM has decided that the Fighter will not accompany the party into the Kobolds’ lair. Why the Fighter (and his litter bearers) stays behind is a roleplaying issue, not a game mechanics issue. I can accept a system of combat rules that does not allow for bones to break. I cannot accept an entire world in which no one ever breaks a bone. In this context, I see no harm with the DM’s plan. However, like all other spices, such “flavor” becomes unsavory when used to excess.
alecthemad 01-13-05, 01:31 PM	Very bad idea imo. A DM has to learn to create dramatic effects without ignoring rules. Even a DM can't simply turn rules on and off when he thinks it is cool. Every DM has to feel out his group. I am giving suggestions based upon my experience. My experience has been that players will let you get away with a lot to advance a good story and to increase dramatic tension. Many dramatic effects can easily be created within the rules. Many are not even touched upon by the rules, but sometimes the rules can be bent or broken if your group is willing to play along. Besides all he is doing is ruling that a broken leg requires a much higher level spell than the PC's can cast. He has broken the rules regarding the very basis of damage in this game which is that it is non-specific. This is not MERPS, GURP, Role Master, ICE or any of a number of stupid overly complex combat/damage rule systems. By the very nature of his request he has already turned the rules off for effect.
Didge 01-13-05, 01:59 PM	Ok, first off... Are any of your PC's clerics? Because if they aren't the whole issue of cure spells isn't relevant. However, if one of the PC's is playing a cleric then I'd suggest the following: As the group is getting ready to leave... NPC (Fighter): "Ok everyone, there is a series of caves in the low hills a day or two from here. That's as good a place as any to start looking. Be careful, the ground is loose in this area and the brush can hide all sorts of nasty surprises." Later...ask for listen checks from the group. Whoever rolled highest (If the PC's rolled pathetically low, have the fighter hear this and pass on the passage below. DM: You hear faint screaming from the distance. The sound is extremely muffled and you're unsure you even heard it in the first place. NPC (Fighter): "Those screams sound like Johanson's little girl, they're coming from the caves which are just a little ways away, we'll follow along this ridge which will lead us straight to them and...AHHHH!" At this point introduce either the poisonous creature (which targets the fighter as he's the point man and has disturbed the creatures nest, hidden beneath the loose brush) or he steps wrong and the brush gives way as he slides down a steep embankment (at least 50' or so) and lands poorly on his leg, breaking it. Now, if you go the poisonous creature route, have the NPC fighter say something like; NPC (Fighter): "I'll handle this creature, go...find out what's making that scream. Hurry!" Of course his son will stay to help out ol' Dad, as will his friend. If you decide he fell down the steep embankment have him say something like; NPC (Fighter): "I'm hurt, I think my leg may be broken. Go, I'll be fine...<insert name of son and friend here> will help me back up this embankment, won't you? (glares at them until they mutter assurances of their assistance) Find out if that scream really is Dalieth, Johanson's little girl. Hurry!" Either way you go, you force the PC's to choose the scream or to help the NPC. Any good PC will naturally run towards the scream of a little girl. It's in their contract as adventurers. ;) If they try to help the Fighter have him insist/plead that they go help Dalieth.