Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Guyver027 01-09-07, 03:32 PM	I have a player that makes these disgustingly broken half-dragon characters... and with the introduction of races of dragon, now can basically use this breathweapon as a dragon does... ans is pewing acid all over everything... in addition to buring just about every monster he goes at toe to toe... Now eveyone wants to be a half dragon..... I don't want to limit the class, but it is really too powerfull what I had intended for the camapign... It seem okay at 7th level, but now... at 12th things are getting a little out of hand... I dont knock the guy the character is legit... just powerful...
Aberlonian 01-09-07, 03:38 PM	I have a player who wants to play half-dragon when he rolls his next character. I'm really hesitant to allow this, but it doesn't feel right to just say "no". I might steer him towards the Red Dragon Disciple, which allows breath weapon and other draconic abilities, but over time and they must be earned.
Free1983 01-09-07, 03:40 PM	You can try to solve the problem the other way around. Why don't you pump up the other characters in your party. If they find some magic items (of course your halfdragon PC should get one too, but perhaps a little less powerful) you might rebalance the party and the only thing you'll have to do next is looking for bigger and nastier monsters. Good luck
Orchomenos 01-09-07, 03:53 PM	You do realise this is a Level Adjustment of +3, meaning they miss 3 class levels compared to another character? So an half-dragon barbarian 3 would be equivalent to a human barbarian 6. Yeah, they have better AC, but they have far less HP... And don't forget the HD increase only affect racial HD, not the class HD... As long as they are medium-size, they don't have wings... So a few kobold rogues on top of a 30' wall would have a great time raining arrows on the half-dragon. Or T-rex could decide to grab and swallow him whole for its next breakfeast. Or what about a creature with some fear effect, like a ghost or shadow mastiff? Half dragons have no bonus to Wisdom, and most warriors have bad will saves... And don't forget you can use monsters resistants to acid, or even use other dragons and half-dragons agaisnt them...
Guyver027 01-09-07, 04:07 PM	Far less HP? Yeah maybe at lower levels... but by 12 level with his con mod, and inproved toughness trust me... he's glass-jaw ahs long since transmutated to steel...He's close to 100HP... and with a good cleric in our party he's taken care of... He's using a lizardfolk character as his base, granting him 2 HD...and ecl of 2 he's only got like 3 lev of fighter... and he hit's just as hard, plus... he has a broken breath weapon... line of freaking acid.... ever deal with that? Acid all over the place... It blows... what do I tell him...? The character is great... I wish I was playing him....
Grand Theft Otto 01-09-07, 04:11 PM	You do realise this is a Level Adjustment of +3, meaning they miss 3 class levels compared to another character? So an half-dragon barbarian 3 would be equivalent to a human barbarian 6. Yeah, they have better AC, but they have far less HP... No kidding. Half dragons generally stink. They lose BAB, which translates into lost attacks, or lost damage through power attack. They were a joke with the 1/day breath weapon before. An average of 27 points of damage before the save for half isnt really worth the standard action at 12th level. Maybe if you posted the character I could see where the concern stems from.
Darth Sephiroth 01-09-07, 04:32 PM	And a Half-Dragon Lizardfolk would be even worse with 2 Racial HD and +4 LA, you end up with a character that is in serious trouble later on. Plus as medium sizethe character loses the flight ability unless he spent several feats to gain it. Remember also that Multiattack from the Lizardfolk is its 1st level feat from HD, meaning that with 3 levels, you only have 2 level based feats. Also the Lizardfolk lose the claw damage because its the same as their usual and only gain a slight boost to their bite attack. It also has lost 4 HD which means it'll be much easier to kill and even the HD size increase only bumps two of the die to d10's which isn't really that much. The character loses 4 HD which if he's at 3 character levels puts the game around level 9 and puts him back 2 level based feats and 6 other class abilities for a small handfull of stat boosts and a couple abilities (Basically Hold Breath, Breath Weapon, and Dragon type)
Derren S. 01-09-07, 04:40 PM	Far less HP? Yeah maybe at lower levels... but by 12 level with his con mod, and inproved toughness trust me... he's glass-jaw ahs long since transmutated to steel...He's close to 100HP... and with a good cleric in our party he's taken care of... He's using a lizardfolk character as his base, granting him 2 HD...and ecl of 2 he's only got like 3 lev of fighter... and he hit's just as hard, plus... he has a broken breath weapon... line of freaking acid.... ever deal with that? Acid all over the place... It blows... what do I tell him...? The character is great... I wish I was playing him.... Sorry but what you wrote is nonsense. Please take your time and explain clearly what the problem is. So he is a ECL 12 Lizardfolk half dragon with fighter levels. That means +4 LA, 2 Racial HD and 6 fighter levels. That means that he has only 8d10 HD and had to be very lucky to get 100 HP. His saves and BAB are abbysmal and no where near standard for a melee fighter of his level. And he lacks 6 levels of class abilities (but in the case of fighter that are "only" 4 feats). And the breath weapon is broken? rofl. Even if he can use it every 1d4 rounds that is only a 6d8 with a DC 11+Con Reflex Save for half. That are peanuts at 12th level. If that is the most powerfull character in your group then all other players must do something seriously wrong.
Merestil Haye 01-09-07, 04:46 PM	Far less HP? Yeah maybe at lower levels... but by 12 level with his con mod, and inproved toughness trust me... he's glass-jaw ahs long since transmutated to steel...He's close to 100HP... and with a good cleric in our party he's taken care of... He's using a lizardfolk character as his base, granting him 2 HD...and ecl of 2 he's only got like 3 lev of fighter... and he hit's just as hard, plus... he has a broken breath weapon... line of freaking acid.... ever deal with that? Acid all over the place... It blows... what do I tell him...? The character is great... I wish I was playing him....A frontline character with 100hp at 12th level? Is that all? A decently built Fighter or Barbarian should, by now, have of the order of 120 - 130hp. For the fighter, he could have rolled (on average) 70. Plus a Con of 16-18 (another 36 or 48) and Improved Toughness (+12 more). I think you have some problems in understanding ECL, anyway. A Lizardfolk has 2 racial HD - these being his first two HD. Then he gets a +1 LA from his race, and another +3 for the template. If he's ECL12 then he has at most six class levels. He can't claim maximum hp for his first Fighter level, because he's a lizardfolk. He's likely to have hp aroundabout 11 (Racial HD) + 33 (Fighter HD) + (8 * Con mod +1). We'll assume he has a Con of 20 including his two racial adjustments, thus that gives 48 bonus hp - 93 total. Not too far from the 100 or so you said, which might be good hp rolling. He'll have a good AB because of his huge Strength - 28 assuming 16 start and a +2 item. That should make up for his base attack of +7. By comparison, a human fighter would have a Str of 21 but a BAB of 12 - they have about the same attack bonus, but the pure fighter has one more attack which, over time, will add up. However, he still has poor saves (cf a 12th level character) - his base bonuses should be Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2 compared with the base bonuses of a 12th level fighter (F+8, R+4, W+4). He also has 5 less feats. He should be threatened or dying regularly when nasty spellcasters target that Will save of his. (Of course, he's immune to Hold Person, but not Hold Monster).
Templetroll 01-09-07, 04:50 PM	Far less HP? Yeah maybe at lower levels... but by 12 level with his con mod, and inproved toughness trust me... he's glass-jaw ahs long since transmutated to steel...He's close to 100HP... and with a good cleric in our party he's taken care of... He's using a lizardfolk character as his base, granting him 2 HD...and ecl of 2 he's only got like 3 lev of fighter... and he hit's just as hard, plus... he has a broken breath weapon... line of freaking acid.... ever deal with that? Acid all over the place... It blows... what do I tell him...? The character is great... I wish I was playing him.... You keep saying "...acid all over the place..." Doesn't the rest of the party complain about that? This character breathes and exactly how does he describe it so it is "... all over the place..."? Do the foes retreat so the rest of the party must walk through his acid and they no longer have to?
Animae_Draconum 01-09-07, 04:53 PM	Half Dragons should not ever overpower a +0 LA character in any aspect. From an optimization standpoint +3 LA is a horror no player would ever put up with and honestly 100 HP @ lvl 12 is rather sad anyhow. In my current party there is only one character with fewer than 150 HP @ lvl 10. The template is not the problem here, it's the ability of the other players in the party to optimize enough to compensate for the power differential. Introduce them to the CO boards where they will find an abundance of absurdly broken tricks that will probably send your game spiraling out of control.... Or you coudl do the responsible thing and kill off the guy's character (in combat), preferably a true dragon that has a deep seeded hatred for impurities in draconic bloodlines. The other party members will only be harmed if they get in the way. If I were given the option of a template or 3 levels I will NEVER take the template. The bonuses just arent good enough to make it worthwhile. A_D
Derren S. 01-09-07, 04:56 PM	Or just teach the other players to build real characters. Seriously, you don't even have to try to build a stronger character with LA +0 then this Half-Dragon. You basically have to screw yourself voluntary to end up weaker then him.
Animae_Draconum 01-09-07, 05:12 PM	Or just teach the other players to build real characters. Seriously, you don't even have to try to build a stronger character with LA +0 then this Half-Dragon. You basically have to screw yourself voluntary to end up weaker then him. Right on, What are your players playing? I'm thinking the other party members are as follows... Fighter 3, Paladin 1, Bard 1, Sor 3, Wiz 2, Ranger 1, Samurai 1 Commoner 12 Aristocrat 12 Expert 12
CharlieRock 01-09-07, 07:17 PM	Saves vs damage are the half-dragon's bane. It basically ignores the sky high AC they have (which ,with those low hp totals are desperately needed). They also lose out on the top-end powers of whatever class they are. They make some very interesting play options (armored monk?). But ,hardly overpowered imo.
ressurrector 01-09-07, 09:27 PM	Make sure he's taking the 6 level hit for being a lizardfolk half-dragon... Also make sure that everyone treats him as they would treat a half-dragon lizardfolk. He should never be let into any castle, and would probably not be welcome most places where PHB races are prevalent.
Cloaked_Paladin 01-09-07, 09:33 PM	Heh...after reading this, I think my helf-dragon Revised Paladin is a bit overpowered... :evillaugh
Cloaked_Paladin 01-09-07, 09:36 PM	My DM makes Half-Dragons ungodly, though we're probably overlooking something important
Vintar 01-09-07, 10:18 PM	Half-Dragons being good is limited - they are at high levels for a monk because the 3 LA matters less and he can use his claws/bite and unarmed attacks all at once (It would be kool if they did the TWF tree as well for a full 11 attacks a round - not all that effective - but kool none the less). This runs into the problem of it still being a monk. (very cool, but somewhat weak class) The other is when they are being the ultimate tripper (bull-rush and overrun could be effective too - but are more circumstantial), which is based just on strength as opposed to attack roll. Compounded with goliath - could be rather hard to overcome - but that would make it a full 4 LA. However, a half-dragon orc would be nearly as good. However, they both still suffer the low HP and are far from overpowering.
Potato Weasel 01-09-07, 11:04 PM	You realize that his severe lack of hit dice makes him an easy kill with spells based off hit die? Dictum. Anyone at that cr casts it and he's out of the fight. Heck, if he wasnt a dragon he'd be vulnerable to deep slumber. Just send out a monster/sorc with spells that are based off hd, a lot of them are automatic, no save. This will make him rethink la templates.
Yokomohoyo 01-10-07, 04:43 AM	Just three words for you... POWER WORD KILL The pc is too powerful for you campain and he is unbalancing the party? Well first just talk to him out of game and tell him to chill out, not to hog all the lime light and let everyone enjoy the game. Sure he is now a UBER character but why not have the party fight a young black dragon or some other acid immunes? Since he is a fighter I doubt he can change the elemental damage of his breath weapon anyways... Or have the party fight a flying target. A good 75' high and their goes his advantage... Anyways I hope you can resolve your problem... ^_^
Cord de'Beron 01-10-07, 05:03 AM	I have the same kind of problem in my campaign. The 16 level fighter almost die by a artifact that exploded because of a disjontion spell. The wizard character in the group had collected some a golem tome's. So they asked if they could make him into a Half Irongolem. The converting problem: His strenght is around 38 now; (16 from the start, +4 bonus, +6 belt +12 template). The manage to make his will save (he rolled a 20), and he uses the same original hitpoints (+ those from raised Con) and got ecl +3. It was hard to give him his damage reduction tho, because it hasnt been translated as it should in the 3.5 booklet for MMII. He is even more destructable than before, in a round he gives around (1d12 sword,+4enchant,+4 special, 19 strenght) 33 damage pr. hit. So its really hard to get up a good fight now, even tho he was also a bad before that. And with a cleric, 2 mages, 1 ranger, 1 bard in the party, its a very though combat group now. The fights take forever if they should be a challenge. How to solve?? live with it or reroll campaign :-D.
Epicweaver 01-10-07, 08:58 AM	I have the same kind of problem in my campaign. The fighter, almost die by a artifact that exploded because of a disjontion. He was level 16 ad that time. Now a mage in the group has had interested in golems in a long time, and collected a few good tome's. So the ask if they can make himinto a Half Irongolem. Now his strenght is around 38 (16 from the start, +4 bonus, +6 belt +12 template). He made is save, he rolled a 20, and he ofcource retaing his original hitpoints and got ecl +3. It was hard to give him his damage reduction, because it hasnt been translated as it should in the 3.5 booklet for MMII. He is even more destructable than before, he gives a round (1d12 sword,+4enchant,+4 special, 19 strenght) 33 damage pr. hit. So its really hard to get up a good fight now, even tho he was also a bad before that. And with a cleric, 2 mages, 1 ranger, 1 bard, its a very though combat group now. So i know how its fells a DM. How to solve, well the fights take forever if they should be a challange, so live with it or make reroll campaign :-D My brain exploded reading this at about the "MMII" mention.
Guyver027 01-10-07, 02:24 PM	To all of you thanks for the input, tonight I plan to solve this issue... For those of you that have a hard time believing this character is nasty... send me a message and I'll send you a copy of the character... I agree that a 12 level fighter with out a template can be equally as nasty with a good feat selection... It is not the stongest character in the campaign... but it unbalances the group because it is far different the other characters in the party... I was originally running a low magic campaign... but that may change soon... I have planned a series of NPC encounters, the first will be tonight, and I think I can bend this guys horns a little... My biggest problem with this campaign is my lack of preparation time... I don't want to make encounters seem like I am gunning to weaken or kill anyone character in general... so I just have to integrate this situation into the campaign... I think I have done so with the next major encounter... I have some Lycanthropes raiding a small village they are resting at...
Derren S. 01-10-07, 02:32 PM	Maybe the problem is not the Half-Dragon but all other characters?
calvinNhobbes 01-10-07, 04:01 PM	Maybe the problem is not the Half-Dragon but all other characters? I agree with Derren, especially since you mention that you were running a low magic campaign. The half-dragon lizard folk gets alot of racial bonuses and abilities. If the other characters are way below the DMG wealth by level due to the low magic, that may be accounting more for the difference than the half-dragon template.
Grand Theft Otto 01-10-07, 05:37 PM	I was originally running a low magic campaign... This migght be your balance problem. Gaining natural armor class when others lack easy means, breath weapons, higher stats, etc could cause issues.