Buffing help. m15a stay out!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buffing help. m15a stay out!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
biophy6
07-18-05, 03:02 PM Okay,

This must have been dealt with previously but here it is again... My group (3rd and 4th level characters) has settled into a strategy. They figure out who they are about to fight and then they go to the fighter2/barb2 and they:

enlarge person
shield of faith
bardic music
augment his greatsword (with bane *insert bad guy here*)
invisibility
etc.

Then he power attacks/powerful charges, while everyone else hides. You know the rest.

Now, I'm not completely unhappy with this. I've played with this group many times before and I'd rather some strat than no strat. But as fellow DMs you know the heartache of creating a BBEG with background and motivations and hopes and dreams, just to lose him in the first 6 seconds. Last night, I had my BBEG, a 6th level kick ass monk, die before uttering a maniacal laugh, while I had to smile and say, "Good work guys".

Okay. This is what I don't want to do. I don't want to put them up against a CR bad guy too high for them just so he would have enough hp. I don't want to put them against a magic user with dispel magic every time. And I don't want to punish them. Any ideas?

Biophy6
Moonflyer
07-18-05, 03:09 PM Surprise, surprise, surprise... if they know where the BBEG is then they are on to your dungeon layouts or your giving them too much of a hint of what is to come. Have minions attack them, have the BBEG sneak up on them when engaged with the minions... mix it up.
celtredleg
07-18-05, 03:19 PM Layered defense. Set up the situation so that they have to chop through a few groups of minions first, which should bleed off some of the buffs.

Also, your BBG should have a spell caster minion or two himself. Let them buff him, then have clash of the titans.

My party found a wand of enlarge, no every combat is land of the giants.
crazysamaritan
07-18-05, 03:19 PM Power behind the throne.

To use OotS as an analogy, make everyone focus on Xykon, but the real enemy is Redcloak.
MT-296 "Dagger"
07-18-05, 03:19 PM Minions=Good. If they have to waste their spells on minions. They can't buff the fighter can they?

Sunder. Now this can be risky. but if you take out the fighters weapon he is as good as dead.

Reputation. The party gets a reputation for sticking with one tactic and the enemies prepare accordingly.

Bodyguards to the BBEG. His elite troops and not just cannon fodder like minions. I hear a spiked chain wielding fighter is rather effective.

Used sparingly. BBEGs or minions with Dispel magic

Magic Items to make your guys tougher. NPC"s need'em to

Suprise. Don't just meet them head on Ambush them! Take out the casters first.

or you could just use the Hurler and smash them to itty bitty bits with one blow. :D
HorizonWalker
07-18-05, 03:39 PM ~chuckles~

You know, strangely, I wish my players would employ such strategies more often. Still, it's easy to beat, and to figure this out, you just have to understand what 'buffing' does.

In almost all instances, a classic 'buff' spell, such as Bull's Strength does not grant the character new abilities, it simply raises their modifiers. They hit more often, do more damage, and are more likely to succeed at the tasks they are already capable of.

I vastly prefer Enlarge Person myself, as it gives medium characters this wonderful thing called reach. Reach can be used in a variety of evil ways.

The problem here is that they are dumping all of their eggs into one basket. They made one character more powerful, then expected him to do the job.

Bad idea.

There are going to be situations where being able to charge in and deliver massive melee damage aren't going to win the day. And there's no need to use dispel magic. The idea is that you must fight fire with fire. If your party is buffing their combat machine, why doesn't the BBEG have similar backup? And why is he fighting alone anyways? If you have four PCs vs. one opponent, well, that one opponent generally loses, simply because the PCs have four actions. The opponent has one ~unless he can full attack, and even then, that's an inferior stance~.

Only a VERY powerful opponent can take that kind of abuse. If you really want to challenge your PCs, stop using BBEG's, and spread the wealth. My favorite kind of encounter is something I call the 'battle group'.

This is a mixed encounter involving a clear leader, who is probably the highest level, and smartest opponent. If they are a spellcaster, they use spells like Haste and Bless in the most effective manner; on their allies.

You'll have one or two "lieutenants", and as many "grunts" as you feel you can work with. A grunt can be taken out in one or two attacks; individually, he's not a challenge, as part of the battle group, he's another attack, another target to be buffed or killed, and a potential source for a flanking bonus.

The Super-Barbarian has weaknesses, the most obvious is that his enemies KNOW HE IS COMING.

(BBEG): "What is this strange music I hear from down the hall?"

(Minion): "I think it's a Bard, Sir."

(BBEG): "Oho! It's party time!"

This means that both groups can have equal prep time. Smart people know that the only way to win a fight is to have intel; so they will have early warning systems and recon. A simple Alarm spell cast by a 2nd-level Sorcerer can trash any attempt at suprise.

One of the most challenging encounters I ever ran involved a group of Drow performing a ritual in an ancient temple. The Drow Priestess (level 9) was flanked by her Acolytes (8 cleric 2's). A mixed group of Drow warriors and Rogues, backed up by four Drow archers and a Drider slowed the group down, while the Acoyltes fired off a few spells to aid the High Priestess and the grunts. The Priestess herself cast a few spells, then used Righteous Might as the party got near, and used her 20' reach (think I had her set up with a longspear or glaive) to attack over her acolytes and smack the PC's.

Each turn, the acoyltes would use their healing spells on the priestess (or just use Aid Another actions to boost her attack and AC); this went on until the PCs realized the low-level Clerics had to go!

Once they started killing off the 2nd-level Clerics, the tide seriously turned, but they were well and truly challenged (of course, it didn't help that they lacked anyone who could use a 'fireball-solution'; that would have changed things up a bit).

So rule #1: What's good for the PCs is good for the NPCs. Not only in "buff" spells, but what stops the BBEG from using a Charm spell and sending the Barbarian right back at the PCs?

Rule #2: It is much easier to defeat one enemy than four. Hence, do not put all your resources in one spot; if it does get defeated, you're in trouble.

Rule #3: Smarter, not stronger. Don't feel you need to answer power with power; in a lot of cases, wise application of a little power can do more than a lot. Don't feel you need to use Power Word, Stun when Spike Stones or Grease will do just fine.

Rule #4: Change the rules. The most powerful magic in the DnD game, IMO, are the spells that apply different rules to encounters. Obscuring Mist, Solid Fog, Soften Earth and Stone, Darkness, Spike Stones, Illusionary Wall; the sky is the limit here. It's the ultimate "home court advantage", the heck with letting the party play their game in your house! Make 'em play by your rules, and if nothing else, the encounter will become very interesting.

I used Transmute Rock to Mud in an encounter once, turning a normal section of stone floor into a mudpit right under the PC's. The Gnome almost drowned in mud, and it slowed the PC's advance down considerably.

Same thing applies to your Barbarian; ok, he goes charging in to find....a high-ceilinged chamber and a flying Wizard!? How does he deal with Blink, Displacement, or Mirror Image?

Or maybe a cleverly concealed bear trap (if you've played Resident Evil 4, you know what I mean)?

Your players have found the advantages of teamwork. Bravo for them, now it's time to up the ante. But before I forget, let me present

Rule #5: Let the Wookie Win. The idea is to "challenge" the PC's, not obliterate them. If they die heinously, and the only thing you can say is that they should have employed better tactics, it doesn't take the sting away. Do more with less as much as you have to; every encounter is meant to drain away precious resources. The more you have to use in each battle, the harder the next battle will be. Don't be afraid to make an encounter with a bunch of 2 HD zombies, for example. If the party tries to wade through them, you'll have a chance to do a little damage (if there's one thing I've learned about zombies in movies and Resident Evil; they grapple!), and if they burn a few Turn Undead attempts or a Fireball, you've "won" the encounter, because that's a resource they won't have in the next encounter.

I'm not saying not to let PCs die, but try to make sure that they have a good chance to succeed. Don't let the battle hinge on a tactic they've never used before; you must educate your players! If nothing else, use the sort of tactics you want them to use in the big encounters AGAINST THEM in previous, smaller encounters. If they can't adapt, it doesn't matter what defeats them.

In closing, I present HorizonWalker's rules of combat, stated clearly to my players at the beginning of every game.

"Life isn't about fair. Not every encounter is one you can win. If you see an ogre up on a hill, and you attack it, don't blame me if it kills you. You have the ability to choose your encounters by scouting ahead. You have the ability to escape most encounters with Obscuring Mist. When the going gets tough, the tough survive...and if that means "run like heck", then that's what you do."
biophy6
07-19-05, 09:38 AM Thanks a lot everyone.

I'm going to print out some of these responses. Grease! I love it.

Biophy6
ajmastrean
07-19-05, 10:06 AM @biophy6

Another simple thing is... where are these buffs taking place? Spells with Verbal components must be spoken in a strong tone... not whispered.

Make those listen checks and interrupt the casters!
Callista
07-19-05, 10:08 AM Surprise them: They won't have time to buff.

Dispel Magic. Even a Rogue with UMD can use a scroll of it.

Antimagic zones.

Buff your BBEG.

Do NOT have them fight just the BBEG. Give him a lot of minions. They soak up time and damage while the buffs run out. A Cleric-Necromancer with a lot of skellies is a good idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
biophy6 07-18-05, 03:02 PM	Okay, This must have been dealt with previously but here it is again... My group (3rd and 4th level characters) has settled into a strategy. They figure out who they are about to fight and then they go to the fighter2/barb2 and they: enlarge person shield of faith bardic music augment his greatsword (with bane insert bad guy here) invisibility etc. Then he power attacks/powerful charges, while everyone else hides. You know the rest. Now, I'm not completely unhappy with this. I've played with this group many times before and I'd rather some strat than no strat. But as fellow DMs you know the heartache of creating a BBEG with background and motivations and hopes and dreams, just to lose him in the first 6 seconds. Last night, I had my BBEG, a 6th level kick ass monk, die before uttering a maniacal laugh, while I had to smile and say, "Good work guys". Okay. This is what I don't want to do. I don't want to put them up against a CR bad guy too high for them just so he would have enough hp. I don't want to put them against a magic user with dispel magic every time. And I don't want to punish them. Any ideas? Biophy6
Moonflyer 07-18-05, 03:09 PM	Surprise, surprise, surprise... if they know where the BBEG is then they are on to your dungeon layouts or your giving them too much of a hint of what is to come. Have minions attack them, have the BBEG sneak up on them when engaged with the minions... mix it up.
celtredleg 07-18-05, 03:19 PM	Layered defense. Set up the situation so that they have to chop through a few groups of minions first, which should bleed off some of the buffs. Also, your BBG should have a spell caster minion or two himself. Let them buff him, then have clash of the titans. My party found a wand of enlarge, no every combat is land of the giants.
crazysamaritan 07-18-05, 03:19 PM	Power behind the throne. To use OotS as an analogy, make everyone focus on Xykon, but the real enemy is Redcloak.
MT-296 "Dagger" 07-18-05, 03:19 PM	Minions=Good. If they have to waste their spells on minions. They can't buff the fighter can they? Sunder. Now this can be risky. but if you take out the fighters weapon he is as good as dead. Reputation. The party gets a reputation for sticking with one tactic and the enemies prepare accordingly. Bodyguards to the BBEG. His elite troops and not just cannon fodder like minions. I hear a spiked chain wielding fighter is rather effective. Used sparingly. BBEGs or minions with Dispel magic Magic Items to make your guys tougher. NPC"s need'em to Suprise. Don't just meet them head on Ambush them! Take out the casters first. or you could just use the Hurler and smash them to itty bitty bits with one blow. :D
HorizonWalker 07-18-05, 03:39 PM	~chuckles~ You know, strangely, I wish my players would employ such strategies more often. Still, it's easy to beat, and to figure this out, you just have to understand what 'buffing' does. In almost all instances, a classic 'buff' spell, such as Bull's Strength does not grant the character new abilities, it simply raises their modifiers. They hit more often, do more damage, and are more likely to succeed at the tasks they are already capable of. I vastly prefer Enlarge Person myself, as it gives medium characters this wonderful thing called reach. Reach can be used in a variety of evil ways. The problem here is that they are dumping all of their eggs into one basket. They made one character more powerful, then expected him to do the job. Bad idea. There are going to be situations where being able to charge in and deliver massive melee damage aren't going to win the day. And there's no need to use dispel magic. The idea is that you must fight fire with fire. If your party is buffing their combat machine, why doesn't the BBEG have similar backup? And why is he fighting alone anyways? If you have four PCs vs. one opponent, well, that one opponent generally loses, simply because the PCs have four actions. The opponent has one ~unless he can full attack, and even then, that's an inferior stance~. Only a VERY powerful opponent can take that kind of abuse. If you really want to challenge your PCs, stop using BBEG's, and spread the wealth. My favorite kind of encounter is something I call the 'battle group'. This is a mixed encounter involving a clear leader, who is probably the highest level, and smartest opponent. If they are a spellcaster, they use spells like Haste and Bless in the most effective manner; on their allies. You'll have one or two "lieutenants", and as many "grunts" as you feel you can work with. A grunt can be taken out in one or two attacks; individually, he's not a challenge, as part of the battle group, he's another attack, another target to be buffed or killed, and a potential source for a flanking bonus. The Super-Barbarian has weaknesses, the most obvious is that his enemies KNOW HE IS COMING. (BBEG): "What is this strange music I hear from down the hall?" (Minion): "I think it's a Bard, Sir." (BBEG): "Oho! It's party time!" This means that both groups can have equal prep time. Smart people know that the only way to win a fight is to have intel; so they will have early warning systems and recon. A simple Alarm spell cast by a 2nd-level Sorcerer can trash any attempt at suprise. One of the most challenging encounters I ever ran involved a group of Drow performing a ritual in an ancient temple. The Drow Priestess (level 9) was flanked by her Acolytes (8 cleric 2's). A mixed group of Drow warriors and Rogues, backed up by four Drow archers and a Drider slowed the group down, while the Acoyltes fired off a few spells to aid the High Priestess and the grunts. The Priestess herself cast a few spells, then used Righteous Might as the party got near, and used her 20' reach (think I had her set up with a longspear or glaive) to attack over her acolytes and smack the PC's. Each turn, the acoyltes would use their healing spells on the priestess (or just use Aid Another actions to boost her attack and AC); this went on until the PCs realized the low-level Clerics had to go! Once they started killing off the 2nd-level Clerics, the tide seriously turned, but they were well and truly challenged (of course, it didn't help that they lacked anyone who could use a 'fireball-solution'; that would have changed things up a bit). So rule #1: What's good for the PCs is good for the NPCs. Not only in "buff" spells, but what stops the BBEG from using a Charm spell and sending the Barbarian right back at the PCs? Rule #2: It is much easier to defeat one enemy than four. Hence, do not put all your resources in one spot; if it does get defeated, you're in trouble. Rule #3: Smarter, not stronger. Don't feel you need to answer power with power; in a lot of cases, wise application of a little power can do more than a lot. Don't feel you need to use Power Word, Stun when Spike Stones or Grease will do just fine. Rule #4: Change the rules. The most powerful magic in the DnD game, IMO, are the spells that apply different rules to encounters. Obscuring Mist, Solid Fog, Soften Earth and Stone, Darkness, Spike Stones, Illusionary Wall; the sky is the limit here. It's the ultimate "home court advantage", the heck with letting the party play their game in your house! Make 'em play by your rules, and if nothing else, the encounter will become very interesting. I used Transmute Rock to Mud in an encounter once, turning a normal section of stone floor into a mudpit right under the PC's. The Gnome almost drowned in mud, and it slowed the PC's advance down considerably. Same thing applies to your Barbarian; ok, he goes charging in to find....a high-ceilinged chamber and a flying Wizard!? How does he deal with Blink, Displacement, or Mirror Image? Or maybe a cleverly concealed bear trap (if you've played Resident Evil 4, you know what I mean)? Your players have found the advantages of teamwork. Bravo for them, now it's time to up the ante. But before I forget, let me present Rule #5: Let the Wookie Win. The idea is to "challenge" the PC's, not obliterate them. If they die heinously, and the only thing you can say is that they should have employed better tactics, it doesn't take the sting away. Do more with less as much as you have to; every encounter is meant to drain away precious resources. The more you have to use in each battle, the harder the next battle will be. Don't be afraid to make an encounter with a bunch of 2 HD zombies, for example. If the party tries to wade through them, you'll have a chance to do a little damage (if there's one thing I've learned about zombies in movies and Resident Evil; they grapple!), and if they burn a few Turn Undead attempts or a Fireball, you've "won" the encounter, because that's a resource they won't have in the next encounter. I'm not saying not to let PCs die, but try to make sure that they have a good chance to succeed. Don't let the battle hinge on a tactic they've never used before; you must educate your players! If nothing else, use the sort of tactics you want them to use in the big encounters AGAINST THEM in previous, smaller encounters. If they can't adapt, it doesn't matter what defeats them. In closing, I present HorizonWalker's rules of combat, stated clearly to my players at the beginning of every game. "Life isn't about fair. Not every encounter is one you can win. If you see an ogre up on a hill, and you attack it, don't blame me if it kills you. You have the ability to choose your encounters by scouting ahead. You have the ability to escape most encounters with Obscuring Mist. When the going gets tough, the tough survive...and if that means "run like heck", then that's what you do."
biophy6 07-19-05, 09:38 AM	Thanks a lot everyone. I'm going to print out some of these responses. Grease! I love it. Biophy6
ajmastrean 07-19-05, 10:06 AM	@biophy6 Another simple thing is... where are these buffs taking place? Spells with Verbal components must be spoken in a strong tone... not whispered. Make those listen checks and interrupt the casters!
Callista 07-19-05, 10:08 AM	Surprise them: They won't have time to buff. Dispel Magic. Even a Rogue with UMD can use a scroll of it. Antimagic zones. Buff your BBEG. Do NOT have them fight just the BBEG. Give him a lot of minions. They soak up time and damage while the buffs run out. A Cleric-Necromancer with a lot of skellies is a good idea.