Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PoweredBySoy 01-14-08, 11:07 AM	So we'll be starting an evil campaign shortly in where I'm allowing my PC's to play certain monster classes. Goblins, Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Kobolds, Orcs, Bugbears, and the like.... All characters start at 5th level with a 24 point-buy. One of my players wants to make a Bugbear (+1 level adjustment) that has been afflicted with lycanthrope (+2/werewolf). Which means he has two class levels left over, making him a 2nd level Cleric. Now, I try to run a fairly average to low power campaign. The problem is, I think these monster races are insanely powerful - especially when it comes to abilities. This Bugbear/werewolf character has amazing stats, even with a seemingly mediocre 24 point-buy. He has 16/16/12/12/16/8. And then once he transforms into hybrid wolf form, his stats easily approach epic levels, in addition to the +5 natural AC, 5/silver DR, and 7 feats. And this is all at level 5. I have another character that will be playing a Goblin Scout, who seems much more in line with a 5th level party. So I don't want certain races making the party unbalanced, or turning the campaign into a one-man show. I currently plan on trying to restrict this characters ability to transform into a werewolf. Meaning, I don't want him to be able to do this at the drop of a hat. Certain conditions will have to be met, and he will need to make the appropriate Change Shape roll. So that should help curb his power somewhat. But I think the real problem lies with the Bugbear. At a mere +1 level adjustment, the Bugbear seems very broken. Very powerful. Another character in the party will be a Gnoll Barbarian, with a base strength of 20. Again, epic level. And while a Gnoll too is a +1, I don't have so much of a problem with that. It's certainly a powerful +1, but the character is very one dimensional - a brutal melee machine. So I don't have quite as many reservations about this character as I do the Bugbear. Does anybody have any thoughts as to how I could help balance the party out a little more? The discrepancy between a +0 Goblin and a +1 Bugbear is just too large in my opinion. I guess the easy answer is just make the Bugbear a +2. But the character would still have all those abilities. Would being limited to a 1st level Cleric really balance that out? Then I thought about lowering the point-buy even further. But that would only end up hurting the (normal) Goblin character too - who really doesn't deserve it. Also, as a DM, I will really try to put the party in situations where their low INT's and CHA's will have a negative affect. These are typically their "junk" abilities that they don't pour very many (if any) points into. So, if they want their characters to be uber strong, mindless melee machines, I will try to make them pay for it somehow. I'll have to get creative. Anyways, anybody have experience running a monster race campaign? Any words of wisdom in terms of party balance? Thanks.
LeeAlucard 01-14-08, 11:19 AM	A fifth-level Human Fighter has seven feats. I'd hardly call that epic-level. Unless his alternate form is a dire wolf, a werewolf transformation would only add 2 Str and 2 Con. Keep in mind, he doesn't have the DR and ability increases unless he transforms. However, if he transforms into a werewolf for every battle, he's gonna get a reputation for it.
PoweredBySoy 01-14-08, 12:38 PM	I read this from the SRD on Lycanthrope: Werewolf Wolf Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4 Chaotic evil .. which would bring this characters stats to 18/20/16/12/16/8. That's absurd at 5th level. But you're right, it's only while Shape Changed. My main concern isn't how powerful or "epic" the party is as a whole, it's how out of whack this individual PC is to some of the other PC's at this level. So I was looking for ways to help balance him out. I don't think him developing a "reputation" as being a werewolf and killing humans is going to provide much of a deterrent. If fact, it might just have the opposite effect.
LeeAlucard 01-14-08, 12:56 PM	Oops, you're right about the numbers. My mistake. That is a bit excessive, but I still wouldn't try and penalize him for it. You see, what I meant earlier is that if he develops a reputation as a werewolf, then people will know his weakness. Enemies who know of him beforehand will take care to use silvered weapons against him. In addition, thanks to him being a lycanthrope and a bugbear to boot, this means he's only got two class levels, where the goblin would have five.
BENEVOLENT_DM 01-14-08, 01:01 PM	Epic is probably the wrong word to use since it refers to levels above 20. I actually think the Bugbear/Werewolf Cleric is not the best combo. He is very strong at 5th level, but he would lag behind a cleric with no LA at higher levels. So he is trading of good at the begining of the campaign to weak later in the campaign.
PoweredBySoy 01-14-08, 01:08 PM	In addition, thanks to him being a lycanthrope and a bugbear to boot, this means he's only got two class levels, where the goblin would have five. Yeah, and that was one of my main questions: is the level penalty alone enough to balance out the character? I guess I'm not an experienced enough DM to answer that on my own. My initial reaction is that it is not. Even with the lower saving throws and a weaker spell list, this character still seems very powerful for a 5th level... anything. I think I've decided to make the Bugbear a +2 level adjustment, and the rest of the party seems to agree that's fair. Bugbears just seem out of line with the other +1 monster races. So now the PC is a 1st level Cleric. It's a crude fix, and I'm not sure it will be enough, but it's a step in the right direction. After a few play sessions I can reevaluate. Any other ideas are welcome though.
Millet 01-14-08, 01:36 PM	If I understand the rules correctly, the Bugbear's ECL is 4 (3 racial hit-dice, LA+1), without any class levels. Add the two cleric levels, and you're at 6, which is already higher than the party level. Lycanthropy has a base LA of +3, bringing the total ECL to 9. But wait! We have to add the werewolf hit-die, which brings the total ECL to 11. This means that you're goblin scout has an ECL of 5, but your bugbear has an ECL of 11, which makes the bugbear severly over-powered. I would recommend removing the werewolf aspect, as it is a total LA of +5. However, if the player wishes to keep the were- aspect, consider letting him play a shifter, an eberron race without a LA, but that has a minor werecreature ability. The race can be found in the Eberron Campaign setting, or in the Monster Manual III.
Count Arioch the 28th 01-14-08, 02:05 PM	You're actually are off by one, werewolf template has 2 hit dice. That error doesn't affect your argument in any large way though, the bugbear werewolf cleric can't play in a 5th level group.
PoweredBySoy 01-14-08, 02:13 PM	If I understand the rules correctly..... Sweet Jesus....... you're absolutely right. I just read into it. Well this makes total sense now. Although, I don't believe you'd add in the Werewolf's HD into the ECL, as a lycanthrope keeps it's current HD no matter what form it's in, even despite changes to CON. Wow. This is going to come as a bit of a shock to the players I'm sure. lol. Oh well, rolling characters is half the fun. :P Thank you much for opening my eyes.
Empirate 01-14-08, 03:03 PM	Remember that Gnolls have 2 racial Hit Dice, too. Making a Gnoll Fighter2 ECL 5, just right for your group: 2 Gnoll racial Hit Dice, +1 Gnoll Level Adjustment, 2 Fighter levels. Just about any monster with racial Hit Dice is underpowered rather than overpowered as a player character race, believe me. Those Gnoll Hit Dice are crappy as hell, way worse than class levels in any possible way. The +1 LA is for NA and ability modifiers (which aren't even all positive), as well as his special abilities (i.e., darkvision). All together, a simple no-class-level Gnoll at ECL 3 is worse than most third-level characters, IMHO! The Bugbear is even worse: He has 3 racial HD and a +1 LA, making him ECL 4 from the outset, without character levels. Add a level of Cleric, and he's already 5th level, but only able to cast 1st level spells. This sucks big-time. Those 3 racial HD are Humanoid HD, about the worst in the game. So instead of four juicy character levels, you get three crappy levels and a bunch of ability bonuses. Your saves and BAB suck, plus you only get ability modifiers, darkvision and scent as "class features" instead of, say, spellcasting. I'd reconsider that character, if I were the player, and settle for standard races. If you want something monstrous, go Orc, Goblin or Kobold - all viable and well-balanced races.
Ecalsneerg 01-14-08, 03:08 PM	There's always a savage progression?
metalmayhem80110 01-14-08, 03:13 PM	I feel kind of sad that I said "Only a 20 in the main stat by level 5? Ha!" But anyways... Don't worry about his character at all. He's going cleric you said... Well his casting will be 5 levels behind what they should be.... He is going to be weak, at best.
Count Arioch the 28th 01-14-08, 03:14 PM	Although, I don't believe you'd add in the Werewolf's HD into the ECL, as a lycanthrope keeps it's current HD no matter what form it's in, even despite changes to CON. Actually, if you check the sample lycanthropes in the monster manual, you'll see that they all have the hit dice of whatever animal they turn into added on to their normal levels.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-14-08, 03:19 PM	> Although, I don't believe you'd add in the Werewolf's HD into the ECL, as a > lycanthrope keeps it's current HD no matter what form it's in, even despite > changes to CON. "Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as the base creature, plus those of the base animal." A lycanthrope keeps its current HD, and those don't change size (unlike some template), but it adds the animal form hit dice as racial hit dice in addition to those. It doesn't undergo further HD changes when it changes form, which is probably what you're thinking of. Those extra hit dice from its animal type apply at all times. (So a Commoner 1 human werewolf is a lot tougher than a Commoner 1 human without the template even when it's in human form.) You can see this in the lycanthrope stat blocks: They're all Warrior 1 humans with appropriate animal type hit dice added on. As such, a bugbear werewolf with no class levels at all will have 3 humanoid hit dice, 2 animal hit dice, and a total of +4 LA between the race and the template, making it a 9th level character before classes get added.
Suspect_Unusual 01-14-08, 03:50 PM	Neutronium_dragon:As such, a bugbear werewolf with no class levels at all will have 3 humanoid hit dice, 2 animal hit dice, and a total of +4 LA between the race and the template, making it a 9th level character before classes get added. While I agree with everything you've said, the OP seems to indicate the Bugbear is an afflicted lycanthrope - that is, he's the LA +2 variety. This means, between the 3 racial HD, the 2 animal HD, and the two LAs, the ECL for an afflicted werewolf bugbear is 8 before class levels.