Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elrabin 01-28-08, 08:06 AM	I'm designing a stronghold out in the wilderness frontier of my world, with a keep as its most prominent feature. I'm wondering how large a keep generally was in the real world. Also, if anyone has any information on how large family dwellings and inns and things were back in the middle ages/renaissance.
Simonides 01-28-08, 10:16 AM	Is this a settlement for people to live in or is it a military fortress for defensive purposes. The earliest castles, keeps, and manners were actually common living/working areas. The peasants all lived huddled together in the great hall. They would go out in the morning and work the fields and the forges and then come back at night. They did this primarily for safety and warmth. Developments in architecture (particularly improvements in chimneys and fireplaces) allowed people to spread out a little. People could now live in individual houses in small, independant family units. The castle still served as a gathering place, but it wasn't a living space any more. However, when danger came, the people would withdraw into the castle walls so that the ruler could defend them. This generally holds for small, farming settlements. For larger settlements, the castle or keep plays a smaller role. The settlement was usually surrounded by walls. Within the walls were markets, common houses (inns), and the like. Outside, the farms sprawled for miles. When danger came, the farmers would retreat behind the town walls. Cities and towns grew as the gathering place for farmers and traders to barter. As a small settlement with a large fortress expanded, the focus on the castle/keep/manor as the center of town life diminished. However, they didn't tear down the castles and keeps. So the keeps and castles in larger towns are a lot a bigger than they need to be if the ton is fairly old. Newer towns and cities had small keeps that were actually just fancy manors for the well-to-do. The town/city walls protected the populace so no one had to cram into the castle. Thus a castle or keep should be large enough to fit a village worth of people in very cramped quarters. Historically speaking, anyway. As noted above, family dwellings were an outgrowth of a change in technology. The whole village didn't need to huddle together for warmth, so family units started to live on their own. Family dwellings were not very large, but they did house a lot of a people because the units needed to be fairly self-sufficient. They needed to produce enough food for themselves and for the local lord, make clothing, and produce anything else they wanted for themselves. You generally had several generations living under one roof. Inns were as big or small as they needed to be. Many small settlements didn't have inns at all. The rare traveller would be on his own or spend time with a family, doing chores in return for a bed and a meal. Taverns grew out of the idea of a common room or hall as a place for peasants to gether in the evenings and after church. Again, they were as big or small as they needed to be to accomodate the townsfolk. If this is really a small, fronteir outpost, it probably won't have an inn and the tavern will likely be small. People will live in large family units fairly close to the castle/town center for protection. I hope this helps.
Another_Poet 01-28-08, 12:04 PM	Medieval keeps that I have seen in real life are mostly the height of modern 4 or 5 story buildings (though there may only be three floors inside). They're seldom much taller than that except for some of the famous uber-castles. The size of the keeps varies a lot, from maybde only 30x30' squares to much larger buldings, maybe 150 x 80' feet. The ground floor has small rooms with very thick walls (to support the upper stories) so the great feasting hall is usually ont he 2nd or 3rd story. At least in Irish castles, it was common for warriors to sleep both in the great hall itself and in the attic above it (where the warm air goes). Of course, that is just the keep itself. The wall courtyard and the wall surrounding it could be all different sizes. You could have a small keep with a huge area enclosed by a wooden palisade or a mighty fortress with only enough of an enclosure for getting on the horses. The keep is the architecturally difficult part to build; defensive walls were somewhat easier and may be out of proportion to the keep itself. But generally, I would say there is enough room for a stables and several other out-buildings as well as an open area inside the wall. ap