Building a Fair Fight [Final Battle, Talons Campaign] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a Fair Fight [Final Battle, Talons Campaign] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ck2001wendt
04-25-05, 04:08 PM This will probably sound like a mess, but I'll throw out some parameters anyway and see what people think so I can calibrate this correctly and keep it challenging and enjoyable for all sides:

The Players:
-1 20th level Archer (Triple Agent...may be killed by Party before the final battle). Wounding Bow.
-1 18th level Arcane (8th lvl spells). Has a fully-charged Staff of Power.
-2 17th level PCs, 1 PsyWarrior/1 Battle Cleric. Have Dragonlance Analogs (with Wounding and Dragonbane) capable of doing their level in Con damage (Temporary) on a Crit.
-1 16th level Favored Soul. VoP/VoNV Heal Monkey.
-1 17th level Dwarven Gish
-2 16th level Monks, with Dragonlance Analogs.
-4 16th level support charcters...1 Samurai, 1 Archer, 1 Cleric or Paladin, 1 Battlecaster.
-3 Blade Golems (from Lord of the Iron Fortress). Slightly more powerful than Iron Golems; have Wounding blades for Hands.

=15 Total, though only 13 will make it for the final battle (I expect some of the lower level NPCs or Blade Golems to get killed).

-I'm being basic on the builds...each character is at least moderately optimized.
-They have about 1.5-x2 the GP in equip for their level, and rolled stats w. good bonuses.

The Enemy:
-1 15th level Cleric/Hierophant (Healing and Buffing only; does touch Healing from a concealed position). Standard NPC equip.
-1 Great Wyrm Red Dragon, with additional 6 Fighter levels; (equiv 19th level Sorcerer; Final CR 32). Standard NPC equip, with an eye towards covering weak spots. Final AC and Att will be somewhere around 60. Epic Combat Feats (Dire Charge, Devesating Crit) but not casting. His attacks are capapble of killing any party member, but only on a Critical Hit with his claws.

Background Conditions:
-Battle map and conditions will be the end of Bastion of Broken Souls.
-An Artifact will be in operation that negates all flight, teleportation, ethereal or extradimensional movement, and prevents Conjuration magic (but force effects are okay). This battle is to the death.
-Both sides know a great deal about the other. The Dragon knows the preferred tactics of the original members of the party (the four highest level and the two 15th level Monks). The main party members have been preparing for this compat the entire campaign, and have full access to information on standard Red Dragon tactics and capabilities, so they know how bad this could be.
-Both sides will be completely rested, though the party might expend resources in getting through the Dragon's minions in early encounters. They will not have a chance to go back to a Town after entering the final complex.

The Story Objective:
-The party has been aware this battle was coming since the beginning of the campaign, 18 months ago; it is their mission since birth. They know that they should expect heavy casualties (up to 100%).

My Objective:
-To build an epic, end of the campaign battle. We're going to take 4 to 8 hours in the final session to finish this fight.

How I think it will go (Tactics):
-The Dragon will open with a series of Time Stops, interspersed with Walls of Force and Cloudkills, trying to box the party in and kill as many as he can (when the time stop ends, they'll find themselves in the middle of 2 or 3 overlapping Cloudkills, and probably partitioned by Walls).

-When he runs out of Time Stops, he'll do a Quickened, Maximized Breath and follow it with a Dire Charge Full Attack, in an attempt to gauge the party's Fire resistance, take out the Golems, then any Archers, then any characters who are effectively hurting him.

-If things look bad for the Dragon, the Cleric can hit him with Ranged Heals. The Dragon will try and stay close to the Cleric's position, which will be elevated.

-The party will try to wear the Dragon down through Con damage from Wounding weapons and the "Dragonlances" (which do additional wounding against dragons...so 2 con a hit each hit, with a potential 10 or 15 extra). He will be sufficiently armored that it will take MDJs to strip enough magical protections (a couple...he'll have a Ring of Greater Counterspells...maybe two), then Natural 19s-20s to get a reliable hit.

-I don't think the Dragon will have too easy a time of it, in that the party will be getting 13 actions to his 1, or 30 attacks to his 4-6. I don't think the Party will have too easy a time of it, in that they don't have a lot of healing, the Dragon will be buffed to the Max (Sorc buffs and Healer Buffs) and will be capable of 1-shot kills.

-I expect the Dragon to kill about half the party and all the Golems, end up at 200 HP, and the Wizard will break the Staff. It will be a short battle (under 10 rounds) that should take the entire session. The image I want to evoke is two sides hitting one another with all their strength, going for a death blow on each strike, and the survivors (if there are any) really having something to talk about after the campaign ends.

Thoughts? Tactical suggestions for the Party or the Dragon?
Lord Ian Stark
04-25-05, 04:15 PM So basically it's going to be thirteen against two? No it's not even. the enemies will be slaughtered after 2 or 3 rounds IMO.
ck2001wendt
04-25-05, 04:27 PM Short I can live with, so long as the party feels as though they were appropriately challenged and there was a real possibility of death.

It's possible that it could go down as low as 7 or 8 (particularly the Golems, which can't be rebuilt), if the minions get some lucky kills in before the final confrontation.

Some other things to consider:

-CR rating for the sides: Enemy 32, Party Low 20s.

-The Enemy's side will have enough protection to weather the first MDJ, enough Armor to soak all but the luckiest shots (un-MDJ'd Armor...somewhere in the mid-high 40s), and enough battlefield control (Walls of Force+ Large and In Charge) to slow down melee attacks. Force of numbers will probably wear him down, though, with the Golems going in, taking the LaiC AoOs, then the Party tumbling to position. and opening w. melee attacks. I'm also going the Pushback/Knockback route, to get melee attackers out of position if they are lucky enough to get close.

If that's still not very even, how can I bulk up the Dragon without making him impossible to kill?

Honestly, my goal is a 75% party kill rate (all the Golems, all the NPCs, and a 1/3rd of the original party). I want them to win, but I don't want it to be pretty.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ck2001wendt 04-25-05, 04:08 PM	This will probably sound like a mess, but I'll throw out some parameters anyway and see what people think so I can calibrate this correctly and keep it challenging and enjoyable for all sides: The Players: -1 20th level Archer (Triple Agent...may be killed by Party before the final battle). Wounding Bow. -1 18th level Arcane (8th lvl spells). Has a fully-charged Staff of Power. -2 17th level PCs, 1 PsyWarrior/1 Battle Cleric. Have Dragonlance Analogs (with Wounding and Dragonbane) capable of doing their level in Con damage (Temporary) on a Crit. -1 16th level Favored Soul. VoP/VoNV Heal Monkey. -1 17th level Dwarven Gish -2 16th level Monks, with Dragonlance Analogs. -4 16th level support charcters...1 Samurai, 1 Archer, 1 Cleric or Paladin, 1 Battlecaster. -3 Blade Golems (from Lord of the Iron Fortress). Slightly more powerful than Iron Golems; have Wounding blades for Hands. =15 Total, though only 13 will make it for the final battle (I expect some of the lower level NPCs or Blade Golems to get killed). -I'm being basic on the builds...each character is at least moderately optimized. -They have about 1.5-x2 the GP in equip for their level, and rolled stats w. good bonuses. The Enemy: -1 15th level Cleric/Hierophant (Healing and Buffing only; does touch Healing from a concealed position). Standard NPC equip. -1 Great Wyrm Red Dragon, with additional 6 Fighter levels; (equiv 19th level Sorcerer; Final CR 32). Standard NPC equip, with an eye towards covering weak spots. Final AC and Att will be somewhere around 60. Epic Combat Feats (Dire Charge, Devesating Crit) but not casting. His attacks are capapble of killing any party member, but only on a Critical Hit with his claws. Background Conditions: -Battle map and conditions will be the end of Bastion of Broken Souls. -An Artifact will be in operation that negates all flight, teleportation, ethereal or extradimensional movement, and prevents Conjuration magic (but force effects are okay). This battle is to the death. -Both sides know a great deal about the other. The Dragon knows the preferred tactics of the original members of the party (the four highest level and the two 15th level Monks). The main party members have been preparing for this compat the entire campaign, and have full access to information on standard Red Dragon tactics and capabilities, so they know how bad this could be. -Both sides will be completely rested, though the party might expend resources in getting through the Dragon's minions in early encounters. They will not have a chance to go back to a Town after entering the final complex. The Story Objective: -The party has been aware this battle was coming since the beginning of the campaign, 18 months ago; it is their mission since birth. They know that they should expect heavy casualties (up to 100%). My Objective: -To build an epic, end of the campaign battle. We're going to take 4 to 8 hours in the final session to finish this fight. How I think it will go (Tactics): -The Dragon will open with a series of Time Stops, interspersed with Walls of Force and Cloudkills, trying to box the party in and kill as many as he can (when the time stop ends, they'll find themselves in the middle of 2 or 3 overlapping Cloudkills, and probably partitioned by Walls). -When he runs out of Time Stops, he'll do a Quickened, Maximized Breath and follow it with a Dire Charge Full Attack, in an attempt to gauge the party's Fire resistance, take out the Golems, then any Archers, then any characters who are effectively hurting him. -If things look bad for the Dragon, the Cleric can hit him with Ranged Heals. The Dragon will try and stay close to the Cleric's position, which will be elevated. -The party will try to wear the Dragon down through Con damage from Wounding weapons and the "Dragonlances" (which do additional wounding against dragons...so 2 con a hit each hit, with a potential 10 or 15 extra). He will be sufficiently armored that it will take MDJs to strip enough magical protections (a couple...he'll have a Ring of Greater Counterspells...maybe two), then Natural 19s-20s to get a reliable hit. -I don't think the Dragon will have too easy a time of it, in that the party will be getting 13 actions to his 1, or 30 attacks to his 4-6. I don't think the Party will have too easy a time of it, in that they don't have a lot of healing, the Dragon will be buffed to the Max (Sorc buffs and Healer Buffs) and will be capable of 1-shot kills. -I expect the Dragon to kill about half the party and all the Golems, end up at 200 HP, and the Wizard will break the Staff. It will be a short battle (under 10 rounds) that should take the entire session. The image I want to evoke is two sides hitting one another with all their strength, going for a death blow on each strike, and the survivors (if there are any) really having something to talk about after the campaign ends. Thoughts? Tactical suggestions for the Party or the Dragon?
Lord Ian Stark 04-25-05, 04:15 PM	So basically it's going to be thirteen against two? No it's not even. the enemies will be slaughtered after 2 or 3 rounds IMO.
ck2001wendt 04-25-05, 04:27 PM	Short I can live with, so long as the party feels as though they were appropriately challenged and there was a real possibility of death. It's possible that it could go down as low as 7 or 8 (particularly the Golems, which can't be rebuilt), if the minions get some lucky kills in before the final confrontation. Some other things to consider: -CR rating for the sides: Enemy 32, Party Low 20s. -The Enemy's side will have enough protection to weather the first MDJ, enough Armor to soak all but the luckiest shots (un-MDJ'd Armor...somewhere in the mid-high 40s), and enough battlefield control (Walls of Force+ Large and In Charge) to slow down melee attacks. Force of numbers will probably wear him down, though, with the Golems going in, taking the LaiC AoOs, then the Party tumbling to position. and opening w. melee attacks. I'm also going the Pushback/Knockback route, to get melee attackers out of position if they are lucky enough to get close. If that's still not very even, how can I bulk up the Dragon without making him impossible to kill? Honestly, my goal is a 75% party kill rate (all the Golems, all the NPCs, and a 1/3rd of the original party). I want them to win, but I don't want it to be pretty.