Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PineBark 07-18-07, 05:10 PM	Hello all My players, having no home of their own to return to in my campaign, decided to either build a house themselves or buy one. Either way they want to highly customize it by buying beds, tables, chairs, bookcases and etc themselves. Now I got interested in this little "project" myself, so I don't really mind the time we'll waste on this, but I have no idea where should I look for prices on all of those things. If we'd be building just the default house I guess I could look at the Stronghold Builders Guidebook for something like a bedroom and how much that costs to build, but it already comes with things like beds and tables, so the price shouldn't be as high for an empty house. And what if they'll decide to buy a house instead of building it, what would the price be then? So basicly I'm asking for three things - where can I find prices for common household things, where can I find the price of building an empty house and how much would a prebuilt house cost? Any suggestions or references to books are welcome :)
Lazigothi 07-18-07, 05:40 PM	Cityscape offers price guidelines for a home, but it uses a random dice price range. It considers class of the home and location among reasons for range in price. You might also want to consider annual property taxes as well. Building versus buying a home should depend on if there's room to build, if there's plot restrictions/ permits required, if the homeowner would be considered independent or required to owe fealty or allegiance to a ruling, local government. Having independence would probably be cheaper, but buying a home in a city would offer the privileges of other homeowners: access to emergency services, law & order, and protection. I'd suggest as far as furnishings to just look at what they want to put in it and give them a flat price to get basic household furniture. Let's say for a 4 bedroom house, fully furnished with average stuff, I'd guess around 1,000gp to 2,000gp for everything. Then I'd say the party needs to deduct 100gp each month and an annual 500gp in living expenses and taxes. It would save me time on my bookkeeping. If it was a noble home or villa, I'd probably multiply everything by 3 to 5 times that amount.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-18-07, 05:49 PM	Stronghold Builder's Guide. IIRC, a simple 20x20 house will run you about 1000gp
Midrealm_DM 07-18-07, 05:58 PM	If we'd be building just the default house I guess I could look at the Stronghold Builders Guidebook for something like a bedroom and how much that costs to build, but it already comes with things like beds and tables, so the price shouldn't be as high for an empty house. And what if they'll decide to buy a house instead of building it, what would the price be then? So basicly I'm asking for three things - where can I find prices for common household things, where can I find the price of building an empty house and how much would a prebuilt house cost? Any suggestions or references to books are welcome :) Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog (or something like that) had quite a bit of day to day purchases (clothing, tools, etc) Lacking that - you could check the stronghold builder's guidebook and see how much the exterior walls alone would cost. See Tables 2-4 and 2-5 (pp 34-35) For example a party wanting a building of 40x40 (4 stronghold spaces) would cost ~3200 gp (modified by terrain and location considerations). For 6 inch thick wooden walls. Of course it aslo says there is no cost for wooden walls on the ground floor (I assume this means the price is included in the Stronghold component costs, but since you are doing this without components, the above number seems a good estimate). Now this would just be a big wooden room 40 feet by 40 feet. Not sure why the players would want that. Stronghold Builder's Guide. IIRC, a simple 20x20 house will run you about 1000gp So the exterior Wooden walls (including floor and ceiling) would be about 800 gp of that cost. So the furnishing are roughly 200 gp value. As far as buying v building, I'd use stronghold builders guide, then modify it based on desire and location. If houses are at a premium, go up. If the town is all but deserted, way down. Now if you didn't want ceiling or floor, you could use 'freestanding' walls on p 37 and the cost would only be 1600 gp. (for a 40 x 40) Hope that helps.
doomblade403x 07-18-07, 06:21 PM	The thing I would ask is are they wanting a house or a keep? In town or out in the country someplace? Are they wanting to built it themselves, or would they settle for something prebuilt? In the country which has no kingdom or barony, the land is more or less free, while if one exists it may cost. {I have on more than one occasion sent players on royal quests, and given then land and title as well as a little coin. A few acres at first, then maybe a later even more ajacent to their chosen spot.} As adventurers it would seem the simple home wouldn't be enough. Adventurers have gear, and loads more than your common town dweller or farmer. They will need security, as well as function. Hidden niches for items, perhaps a trophy room, and a training yard are all things they likely need in order to function. They also need people to help keep the place running while an adventure is afoot. Servant/caretaker types are cool plot builders, but they are also very importantn in running the home on a day to day basis. As far as your furniture and things of that nature go, is there a carpenter in your party? If they are gonna go all Bob Villa on this home project, one or two of the players might as well build a few of the homes furnishings themselves. It gives them a chance to really save in buying just the lumber and materials to build, and allows them a little bragging when showing it off. Elvish hero: "Hello! Welcome to the home of the elvish lord Ty Pennington! I built this house, and everything in it! Aint I just the coolest!"
LadyAlaria 07-18-07, 06:37 PM	Keep in mind in the days before mass production, items like furniture were highly variable in price. The craftsmanship and materials could change the price of a chair or desk by a factor of a hundred (or more!) And fine furniture is one of the most important status symbols there is. If your adventurers have any pretentions to the upper classes they should be investing in proper furnishings for their home. And by "investing", I mean "spending every last gold piece they have for the really good stuff". So role-play the haggling. While you are at it, invent a few species of hardwood. "You want genuine thimblewood? You know that has to be smuggled past the treants of the Razorthorn Forest. Very hard to get - but maybe there is a way a brave and enterprising party might be able to get some . . . " I've often found that players get bigger kicks for having something unique and interesting - and completely irrelevant to the game mechanics - than for having a +5 Holy Vorpal Blade of Fiery Disintegration. And at the very least, understand that the price is a function of the social station that the party aims to imitate. For your model, look at the Clothing table in the PHB, where an outfit can cost anywhere from 1 sp to 200 gp. And that is not the limit - that 200 gp royal outfit would be "ordinary" clothes. A king might have ceremonial robes costing a hundred times that. Furniture will be similarly variable.
doomblade403x 07-18-07, 07:15 PM	LadyAlaria made several good points in her post. I doubt you would need the high qaulity she is speaking of, but you would definately want to be on par with nobleman, and senators of your rank. You could also check out the Art Objects section to get a few ideas for inner and outer decor. On a side note..... Isn't Dungeons and dragons great? It allows you to be a mathematician, strategist, designer, writer, stylist, and architect all in one. If only I could get a paying job as a DM...
PineBark 07-19-07, 04:06 AM	The thing I would ask is are they wanting a house or a keep? In town or out in the country someplace? Are they wanting to built it themselves, or would they settle for something prebuilt? In the country which has no kingdom or barony, the land is more or less free, while if one exists it may cost. They want a simple house, something just a bit better than a commoner would have. And they want to build it in a city, besides, in my campaign, pretty much all land is owned by somebody, so I guess they'd have to buy the land first. The Stronghold Builders Guide takes care of building a house (thanks for pointing to the right table, guys. I thought those prebuilt rooms already come with walls included in the price). I'll check out Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog as soon as I can too. Right now the players are leaning towards buying a prebuilt house, which, in my guess, would include the wall price + the room price + the land price + happy mistery price mod?. Any ideas how much would land cost in a city (or out of the city for that matter, Stronghold Builders Guide assumes you already own the land I think)? And how much would buying a prebuilt house cost more than building one yourself?
Ace_of_Night 07-19-07, 06:50 AM	On a side note..... Isn't Dungeons and dragons great? It allows you to be a mathematician, strategist, designer, writer, stylist, and architect all in one. If only I could get a paying job as a DM... Amen. Maybe we should consider asking our players for money for all the work we do as a DM :P To get back to the house thing, I'd say land outside of the city is quite cheap to players, like 500gp per acre, considering the fact that farmers and the like will need to be able to buy the land too. In the center of the city this can be as much as 1000-2000 gold for enough land to put a nobleman's house on and have some space around it for the garden and such, dependant on how desired the space is. (150x150 feet or so.)
doomblade403x 07-19-07, 07:19 AM	Well it depends on where the city land you want to buy is located. If your wanting to buy a premade home in an area where there is alot of homes, then more or less you will be buying residential land. If you want to buy that old shop on the main drag and convert it into your parties base of operations, your looking at about 3 to 4 times the amount. Commercial land always inflates in price. Don't forget they will need space to lodge their horses too, and servant quarters.
PineBark 07-19-07, 07:23 AM	Amen. Maybe we should consider asking our players for money for all the work we do as a DM :P To get back to the house thing, I'd say land outside of the city is quite cheap to players, like 500gp per acre, considering the fact that farmers and the like will need to be able to buy the land too. In the center of the city this can be as much as 1000-2000 gold for enough land to put a nobleman's house on and have some space around it for the garden and such, dependant on how desired the space is. (150x150 feet or so.) Hmm... That seems a bit high. After all, farmers need much more than a few acres, and I can't imagine a commoner having tens of thousands of GPs. Ofcourse that's ignoring the fact that they were given the land by landlords and didn't need to buy it. I'm aiming to make this as realistic as possible - if the PCs can buy a house in the city, so should a random craftsman be able to buy a workshop, and I don't think an average craftsman can save that much money in DnD.
Ace_of_Night 07-19-07, 07:36 AM	Meh my bad there, I was thinking of hectare, the size used mostly where I live... In acres that would be 200 gold. Also, be careful not to confuse farmlands from now with medieval farmlands. Farmers now have a huge area they can work with a tractor, and they can live a good life and live in a big farm from what they earn off the land, but in the medieval times they lived in houses mostly inferior to even the stables, and they had to do everything by hand or with a plough with an ox in front of it if they're lucky. Thus they wouldn't need a big piece of land, as they wouldn't be able to work it all. And the 1000-2000 gold was for ground for a big nobleman's mansion in the absolute center of the city, close to the castle/temple. That's not where craftsmen usually are, they're mostly in a merchant square or the like, and they usually don't have 2250 square feet of property. Ground for a blacksmith's workshop would be.. 200-300 gold? As this isn't stated in any book to my knowledge I'm also just thinking about what it could be, sorry if there's some mistake.
PineBark 07-19-07, 08:13 AM	No worries, your guess is better than mine at least. Talking about medieval farmlands, any clue on how much land an average farmed would have in the middle ages? Google has failed me (or I'm too lazy to search properly) Right now I'm estimating this: about 500GP for something like the land in the "average" area of the town (40x40ft) + cost of walls (assuming a 2 "stronghold space" sized house which is about 30x30ft) 2000gp + 1000gp for the interior (2 ss bedroom or smithy or whatever). This amounts to 3500gp for a brand new house. Assuming the house is already used for a while the price may be 3000gp (for buying it, not building). That still sounds kinda high for a small-ish house. I'm not sure on the price of walls in the Stronghold Builders Guide, they seem too high, especialy since making stone walls instead of wood could bump the price up to 7000gp or so. Or maybe I'm just crazy and it's the way it should be. See anything weird with the calculations?
Andorxor 07-19-07, 08:27 AM	You could let them find a pot with Marvelous Pigments and they paint their house instead of buying or building it.
Midrealm_DM 07-19-07, 12:38 PM	No worries, your guess is better than mine at least. Talking about medieval farmlands, any clue on how much land an average farmed would have in the middle ages? Google has failed me (or I'm too lazy to search properly) Many times the land was given to a farmer they lived on it and tended the lands, a portion of the crops went to the local baron or whatever, the farmer kept the rest to do with as he pleased. In effect the farmer was living on the property for free in exchange for growing crops for the lord. Right now I'm estimating this: about 500GP for something like the land in the "average" area of the town (40x40ft) + cost of walls (assuming a 2 "stronghold space" sized house which is about 30x30ft) 2000gp + 1000gp for the interior (2 ss bedroom or smithy or whatever). This amounts to 3500gp for a brand new house. Assuming the house is already used for a while the price may be 3000gp (for buying it, not building). That still sounds kinda high for a small-ish house. I'm not sure on the price of walls in the Stronghold Builders Guide, they seem too high, especialy since making stone walls instead of wood could bump the price up to 7000gp or so. Or maybe I'm just crazy and it's the way it should be. See anything weird with the calculations? Yeah the stronghold guidebook is on the high end, but PCs tend to have more available cash. Look at it like this. A poor meal cost 1 sp. If we consider that a 'fast food' meal - call 1sp =~ $2.50 This makes 1 gp =~ $25.00 Depending on location and size houses cost vary, but in a suburban small city you might find a small one for close to $100,000. (Check out internet search listings for some prices in areas similar to what you are looking for) Divide by 25 and you get 4000 gp. So yeah I'd say 3000 seems good. Hope that helps some.
Heros_Backpack 07-19-07, 02:31 PM	As a rule of thumb, I'd say that 1 piece of basic wooden furniture would cost about 2gp (the same as a chest or barrel). A masterwork version of the same piece would be nearer 50gp and a cheap version (such as a trestle table instead of a solid one) would be half price at 1gp.
PineBark 07-19-07, 04:42 PM	Many times the land was given to a farmer they lived on it and tended the lands, a portion of the crops went to the local baron or whatever, the farmer kept the rest to do with as he pleased. In effect the farmer was living on the property for free in exchange for growing crops for the lord. Yeah, perhaps I should rephrase my question then. How much land was usualy given to a family by a landlord or how much land can a farmer work by hand? And the price comparison looks correct, maybe I am devaluing houses. I'll do some more calculations and reading on the Stronghold Builders Guide.
PineBark 07-20-07, 05:02 AM	Just a little bump for a new question, since it's not worth making a new thread for it: I'm still having problems understanding the Stronghold Builders Guide. You have to pay for the walls, which include the floor and the ceiling, let's take mortar for example - 2500gp, and then for some sort of component, take bedroom for example - 700gp. What I don't get is why am I paying for the component. Bedroom includes: 2 doors, 2 straw beds, 2 drawers, 2 mirrors and some cheap clothes. Wait what, I'm paying 700gp for THAT? This sounds kinda off. Of course if I choose wooden walls they don't cost anything for the ground floor, so paying 700gp for the bedroom does make some sense, but as soon as I build more floors or choose a different material the price suddenly jump sky high, which is weird. I'm just confused by the way this thing works. Any advice?
doomblade403x 07-20-07, 12:42 PM	One thing I thought of last night but didn' post was that there are all kinds of magazines out there with homeplans in them. They give dimensions, floorplans, and all types of descriptive information. If your players aren't that creative with home design I would lead them in that direction. I charge them space by the foot. A 20 x 20 room costs this much in wood, this much in lumber, this much in stone. Inner walls and such are bought at a flat rate. I don't have the stronghold builders guide, but I use a method for things of this nature that is accepted by my players and makes things pretty simple. I go with some modern rules on builing stuff. For instance you buy the materials. Logs are cheap. Sawed lumber is more expensive, while stone is even more expensive. Keep in min materials are priced by availablity. Mountains are the natural home of stone so it would be cheaper than wood, and vice versa. Then you pay a foreman or designer to put it all together. He comes at the price of 20 gp a month. His crew gets 4 gp a month. The more crew he has, the faster the building process takes. Material will be a big chunk of the budget. In the end your going to have a minor in accounting, however it makes the game a little more realistic.
Midrealm_DM 10-18-07, 12:16 PM	I'm still having problems understanding the Stronghold Builders Guide. You have to pay for the walls, which include the floor and the ceiling, let's take mortar for example - 2500gp, and then for some sort of component, take bedroom for example - 700gp. What I don't get is why am I paying for the component. Bedroom includes: 2 doors, 2 straw beds, 2 drawers, 2 mirrors and some cheap clothes. Wait what, I'm paying 700gp for THAT? This sounds kinda off. Of course if I choose wooden walls they don't cost anything for the ground floor, so paying 700gp for the bedroom does make some sense, but as soon as I build more floors or choose a different material the price suddenly jump sky high, which is weird. I'm just confused by the way this thing works. Any advice? It is generic at best, But keep in mind when it says 'no cost' for wooden walls it eliminates the additional cost for walls because each component has the cost of wooden walls factored into it. As far as added costs for walls, did you add the percentage modifier on p 34? For example the Masonry would be only 2000 gp (not 2500) because only 80% of the walls are masonry (exterior) the remaining 20% (interior) are wooden and free because it is ground floor wooden walls. In addition, (in your example) you are also paying laborers to bring the furniture in, level the ground, build the walls and floor, and ceiling, thatch the roof, put in windows (if any) etc. etc. Adding a second floor means reinforcing the lower walls to support weight, adding a staircase, bringing in a winch mechanism of some kind to lift the materials, so the cost goes up. Page 10 of the guidebook stats that 30% of the cost is labor, so only about 500 gp for the doors, windows, furniture, floor, walls and ceiling. Also if you are a spellcaster you can get discounts for casting certain spells (p 9). All in all its not a perfect system, but it suffices the need. You could look up the cost of individual furnishings, and then try to figure the cost of lumber and labor to assemble it. Or you could assume $50.00 ~ 1 gp and base it on real-world costs. (For example a bed and frame might cost $450 - so 9 gp - plus delivery)
Absynthe_minded21 10-18-07, 02:09 PM	Why not just give them a house and make a quest out of it? While they're inquiring about building costs and zoning permits someone mentions that their wife's mother's brother-in-law just passed away childless and the house he was living in sounds like it's right up their alley (let them decided on the floor plans, furnishings, and even the location in town) The hook: The deceased relative was renting. The house is the property of a local land owner. However, he's recently lost contact with a lumbering operation he also owns and no one he has sent to investigate has returned. The land owner is perfectly willing to lose the bit of income from rent in exchange for the return of income through his lumber buissness. (I would have the reason be an enraged forrest spirit that has been turning everyone who attempts to cut down a tree into wild animals and the only way to make peace with her is to sign a deal inwhich the millworkers agree to plant a new tree for everyone they cut down and only take so many trees per year or something. That's just me though.)
Thevail 10-18-07, 02:16 PM	Amen. Maybe we should consider asking our players for money for all the work we do as a DM :P To get back to the house thing, I'd say land outside of the city is quite cheap to players, like 500gp per acre, considering the fact that farmers and the like will need to be able to buy the land too. In the center of the city this can be as much as 1000-2000 gold for enough land to put a nobleman's house on and have some space around it for the garden and such, dependant on how desired the space is. (150x150 feet or so.) Oh awesome...a dungeon with a cover charge!
Fluid_Fires 10-19-07, 04:04 PM	real simple ..... pg 101 DMG... buildings