Bull rush into a wall. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull rush into a wall. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raumz
04-03-07, 08:22 PM Hi. Well I am running a small solo adventure for a friend. In the fight we are in right now he bull rushed a goblin (being a human fighter) and beat it by 19 points in the roll. He drove it back 15 into a wall. I was wondering wouldn't this cause damage of some kind? I mean being driven back into a barrel that can more or roll is one thing but being driven into a tree or a wall by a creature that just slam tackled you might hurt a bit. Is there any rule for this? Or does anyone have a balanced house rule? Thanks for your time.
Inigo Carmine
04-03-07, 08:48 PM Bullrush doesn't, nor should it, deal damage. You must differentiate between pain and damage. Damage is only dealt in situations that are usually lethal.

Being pushed into a sturdy wall may be painful, but is it liable to kill your average person? Not likely, unless it's a tremendous amount of force. Similarly being knocked to the ground on a solid stone floor might hurt, but you don't take damage from it.

Some people add house rules to bullrush for situations where you rediculously overpower the target of your bullrush. While I usually find they award too much damage (they usually make it so your average 10-year girl can shove Mr Universe into a wall with more force than a speeding semi would), the concept of being able to do a minute amount of damage with bullrush is feasible.

None of the reasonable ones, however, would have awarded damage in this case. They usually involve something like this:

1) Move creature back as far as possible, up to 5 ft per 5 you beat the check by, until you reach a barrier
2) For every 10 points left over, you do 1 point of damage to the creature and the barrier. If the barrier is destroyed, you continue moving the creature back 5ft for every 5 points left over until you reach another barrier, etc.
Forged_Fury
04-03-07, 08:49 PM There may be an optional rule somewhere, but it definitely isn't in the Core.

Anyway... some people treat it similarly to falling damage. For each 10' you bull rush someone into a solid object, they take 1d6 non-lethal damage. Some even add a Reflex save (DC = Distance in Feet Moved) to avoid falling prone. That may be a little overkill since you're basically getting the benefits of a Bull Rush and Trip attempt in one action.

As Inigo points out, a Bull Rush probably shouldn't do lethal damage, but you can certainly knock someone out if you slam them into a wall hard enough.

-Forged_Fury
Dei
04-03-07, 08:58 PM For something like this I'd definately rule that it does damage. At least 1d6/5ft since there's a actually something driving them into the wall with what could easily be lethal force. Something like this can easily break bones, if your head hits the wall it can easily kill you. I'd also probably give them the option of starting a grapple for free since he's basically already got the guy in a hold.

Alternatively you could say that he gets a free trip attempt or something similar. Basically, having slammed them into the wall he is able to throw them down before they can catch their wind.
Vharuck
04-03-07, 09:01 PM Instead of 1d6 per 5 or 10 feet being pushed, I'd say 1d6 for every 10 feet of difference between how far the bull rush would push and how far away the wall is (for example, if you would push them 10' normally but a wall is right behind them, they'd take 1d6 damage).
Dei
04-03-07, 09:05 PM Instead of 1d6 per 5 or 10 feet being pushed, I'd say 1d6 for every 10 feet of difference between how far the bull rush would push and how far away the wall is (for example, if you would push them 10' normally but a wall is right behind them, they'd take 1d6 damage).

Hmm, yeah, good idea. This is slightly more realistic. I would still offer the free grapple to the intiator.
Raumz
04-03-07, 09:19 PM Yea, thats what I was thinking. I have been tackled into a wall and a fence and I know while it didn't kill me it hurt alot and put me out of action for a while. I tried several scenarios and found that subdual damage might be better and a bit more realistic. I am assuming the creature had enough sense not to throw its head back and tried to lessen the impact. But I do like the idea of a free oppertunity to start a grapple.
I beleive this is more realistic. Think about it, if someone 2 1/2 + feet taller than you and around 150 pounds heavier than you slammed into you (possibly with a shield) and drove you back 15 feet into a wall, would you be able to bounce back and try to stab him with a dagger right away? Possibly if you are really really tough. Though the average person would most likely have the wind knocked out of the, possibly be knocked out and maybe even have a few broken bones and internal injuries.
So I was thinking a 1D8 roll for subdual damage + how ever many feet over 10' they were driven back. That is probably to over powered but I will test it out.
Yokomohoyo
04-04-07, 02:23 AM If you want treat it like the battering ram spell. 2d6 spell damage per every 20 feet driven back.
SmilinBandit
04-04-07, 04:13 AM Look into Dungeonscape for the Wallcrasher Fighter Variant. Bullrush CAN hurt badly!
CharlieRock
04-04-07, 04:26 AM We just use the "hit a solid object ,fall down" rule. Simply ,if you get Bull Rushed into an apple cart or the side of the building ,the last legal space you could occupy is where you fall into prone position.
We also made the "diving tacle a.k.a. Watch Out!" rule where you could purposely flub your contested check from being Bull Rushed ,but you end up prone.
Combat is rules-heavy already. We just wanted a simple, cinematic houserule for the "what if..."s.
Ziggaraut
04-04-07, 08:52 PM Getting bull rushed 15 feet into a wall 15 feet away shouldn't do damage. Getting bull rushed 20 feet into a wall 5 feet away SHOULD do damage. I'm tired, so I'll let y'all extrapolate from there.
mlund
04-04-07, 09:03 PM Usually you just wing those situations at the DM's discretion to keep the game fun. The last time I was in such a situation it was a barroom brawl. It wound up as a successful unarmed strike (1d3 non-lethal) and knocked the guy prone.

Generally, if it works the same way for everyone and people are all having fun you're headed in the right direction.

- Marty Lund
Vharuck
04-04-07, 09:25 PM I think subdual damage is a good idea. It's more of a spread-out hit. Of course, if a massively large creature pushes a kitty cat into the wall, I'd be ok just saying the creature died.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raumz 04-03-07, 08:22 PM	Hi. Well I am running a small solo adventure for a friend. In the fight we are in right now he bull rushed a goblin (being a human fighter) and beat it by 19 points in the roll. He drove it back 15 into a wall. I was wondering wouldn't this cause damage of some kind? I mean being driven back into a barrel that can more or roll is one thing but being driven into a tree or a wall by a creature that just slam tackled you might hurt a bit. Is there any rule for this? Or does anyone have a balanced house rule? Thanks for your time.
Inigo Carmine 04-03-07, 08:48 PM	Bullrush doesn't, nor should it, deal damage. You must differentiate between pain and damage. Damage is only dealt in situations that are usually lethal. Being pushed into a sturdy wall may be painful, but is it liable to kill your average person? Not likely, unless it's a tremendous amount of force. Similarly being knocked to the ground on a solid stone floor might hurt, but you don't take damage from it. Some people add house rules to bullrush for situations where you rediculously overpower the target of your bullrush. While I usually find they award too much damage (they usually make it so your average 10-year girl can shove Mr Universe into a wall with more force than a speeding semi would), the concept of being able to do a minute amount of damage with bullrush is feasible. None of the reasonable ones, however, would have awarded damage in this case. They usually involve something like this: 1) Move creature back as far as possible, up to 5 ft per 5 you beat the check by, until you reach a barrier 2) For every 10 points left over, you do 1 point of damage to the creature and the barrier. If the barrier is destroyed, you continue moving the creature back 5ft for every 5 points left over until you reach another barrier, etc.
Forged_Fury 04-03-07, 08:49 PM	There may be an optional rule somewhere, but it definitely isn't in the Core. Anyway... some people treat it similarly to falling damage. For each 10' you bull rush someone into a solid object, they take 1d6 non-lethal damage. Some even add a Reflex save (DC = Distance in Feet Moved) to avoid falling prone. That may be a little overkill since you're basically getting the benefits of a Bull Rush and Trip attempt in one action. As Inigo points out, a Bull Rush probably shouldn't do lethal damage, but you can certainly knock someone out if you slam them into a wall hard enough. -Forged_Fury
Dei 04-03-07, 08:58 PM	For something like this I'd definately rule that it does damage. At least 1d6/5ft since there's a actually something driving them into the wall with what could easily be lethal force. Something like this can easily break bones, if your head hits the wall it can easily kill you. I'd also probably give them the option of starting a grapple for free since he's basically already got the guy in a hold. Alternatively you could say that he gets a free trip attempt or something similar. Basically, having slammed them into the wall he is able to throw them down before they can catch their wind.
Vharuck 04-03-07, 09:01 PM	Instead of 1d6 per 5 or 10 feet being pushed, I'd say 1d6 for every 10 feet of difference between how far the bull rush would push and how far away the wall is (for example, if you would push them 10' normally but a wall is right behind them, they'd take 1d6 damage).
Dei 04-03-07, 09:05 PM	Instead of 1d6 per 5 or 10 feet being pushed, I'd say 1d6 for every 10 feet of difference between how far the bull rush would push and how far away the wall is (for example, if you would push them 10' normally but a wall is right behind them, they'd take 1d6 damage). Hmm, yeah, good idea. This is slightly more realistic. I would still offer the free grapple to the intiator.
Raumz 04-03-07, 09:19 PM	Yea, thats what I was thinking. I have been tackled into a wall and a fence and I know while it didn't kill me it hurt alot and put me out of action for a while. I tried several scenarios and found that subdual damage might be better and a bit more realistic. I am assuming the creature had enough sense not to throw its head back and tried to lessen the impact. But I do like the idea of a free oppertunity to start a grapple. I beleive this is more realistic. Think about it, if someone 2 1/2 + feet taller than you and around 150 pounds heavier than you slammed into you (possibly with a shield) and drove you back 15 feet into a wall, would you be able to bounce back and try to stab him with a dagger right away? Possibly if you are really really tough. Though the average person would most likely have the wind knocked out of the, possibly be knocked out and maybe even have a few broken bones and internal injuries. So I was thinking a 1D8 roll for subdual damage + how ever many feet over 10' they were driven back. That is probably to over powered but I will test it out.
Yokomohoyo 04-04-07, 02:23 AM	If you want treat it like the battering ram spell. 2d6 spell damage per every 20 feet driven back.
SmilinBandit 04-04-07, 04:13 AM	Look into Dungeonscape for the Wallcrasher Fighter Variant. Bullrush CAN hurt badly!
CharlieRock 04-04-07, 04:26 AM	We just use the "hit a solid object ,fall down" rule. Simply ,if you get Bull Rushed into an apple cart or the side of the building ,the last legal space you could occupy is where you fall into prone position. We also made the "diving tacle a.k.a. Watch Out!" rule where you could purposely flub your contested check from being Bull Rushed ,but you end up prone. Combat is rules-heavy already. We just wanted a simple, cinematic houserule for the "what if..."s.
Ziggaraut 04-04-07, 08:52 PM	Getting bull rushed 15 feet into a wall 15 feet away shouldn't do damage. Getting bull rushed 20 feet into a wall 5 feet away SHOULD do damage. I'm tired, so I'll let y'all extrapolate from there.
mlund 04-04-07, 09:03 PM	Usually you just wing those situations at the DM's discretion to keep the game fun. The last time I was in such a situation it was a barroom brawl. It wound up as a successful unarmed strike (1d3 non-lethal) and knocked the guy prone. Generally, if it works the same way for everyone and people are all having fun you're headed in the right direction. - Marty Lund
Vharuck 04-04-07, 09:25 PM	I think subdual damage is a good idea. It's more of a spread-out hit. Of course, if a massively large creature pushes a kitty cat into the wall, I'd be ok just saying the creature died.