Bull Rush Through A Wall [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull Rush Through A Wall [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
redless
07-10-07, 12:53 AM I'm running a game right now where the main villain is a ex-paladin blackguard berserker who wants to be redeemed but can't escape his guilt of killing his wife (Berserk for the win). The PC's tried to redeem Doogan (the villain) by bringing his wifes remains to him and getting her to forgive him.

It was my idea to get them to do that even though they thought it was theirs:D What happened was she did not forgive him. In fact she scorned him and cursed him. Well, needless to say Doogan was ****** Berseked and accidentally derailed my game.

My questions are this

What are the rules for bull rushing someone through a wall? I think that if the wall is weak (dilapidated castle weak) It should be possible.

Can you grapple someone in mid-air

If you're falling and casting a spell do provoke attacks of oppertunity to anyone within striking distance if there falling too?

Thanks D&D boards!
Androcus Divinicus
07-10-07, 01:36 AM What are the rules for bull rushing someone through a wall? I think that if the wall is weak (dilapidated castle weak) It should be possible.
There aren't really rules for this (so far as I know), but I would do something like this: Set the "Break DC" for the wall (which you should be able to derive from DMG p. 60). Then have the bull-rusher make a strength check (possibly with penalties for having to drive someone through the wall, or possibly with bonuses if he still has distance left on his bull-rush attempt, whichever feels best to you). I'd assign damage to the guy who got knocked through the wall ... probably on the order of falling damage halved (e.g. if he was bullrushed 10ft into the wall, I'd do a 1d6/2). If the strength check is successful, they both go tumbling through the wall (though possibly allow a reflex save or climb check to catch part of the wall and stop the fall).

Can you grapple someone in mid-airYou can. But unless the creature involved has a fly speed (or some kind of homebrew feat), I would say it'd be difficult to close with the person while you're falling. If the two characters in question were both already together (as would be the case if they had both tumbled through a wall) then, yes I'd say it could resolve as a standard grapple check.

If you're falling and casting a spell do provoke attacks of oppertunity to anyone within striking distance if there falling too? I'd say, not unless the person making the AoO had a fly speed. But if you don't have a fly speed and you're falling, I'd say that you need to make a concentration check to cast (extrapolate from PHB p. 70, but I'd say a DC 15 or 20 is appropriate). Also, if you're already grappled (assuming that all three of these questions are directly related) then normal rules apply for casting a spell while grappled.

Regards,
Justin.
Thubby
07-10-07, 01:59 AM in order:
dunno
yes
i would say yes

sorry for the short answers, rushed, will elaborate later.
_Jayne_Cobb_
07-10-07, 12:31 PM I'm running a game right now where the main villain is a ex-paladin blackguard berserker who wants to be redeemed but can't escape his guilt of killing his wife (Berserk for the win). The PC's tried to redeem Doogan (the villain) by bringing his wifes remains to him and getting her to forgive him.

It was my idea to get them to do that even though they thought it was theirs:D What happened was she did not forgive him. In fact she scorned him and cursed him. Well, needless to say Doogan was ****** Berseked and accidentally derailed my game.

How is this "accidental?" You lead the PCs to this action and you determined the results of it. The situation was all entirely of your design, and the consequences are entirely your fault. This is the precise opposite of "accidental."
kentonblack
07-10-07, 12:33 PM ZING
Androcus Divinicus
07-10-07, 01:31 PM This is the precise opposite of "accidental."

You know I was thinking the exact same thing ...
redless
07-10-07, 01:32 PM How is this "accidental?" You lead the PCs to this action and you determined the results of it. The situation was all entirely of your design, and the consequences are entirely your fault. This is the precise opposite of "accidental."

or....

is it
Androcus Divinicus
07-10-07, 01:35 PM or....

is it

:facepalm:

... you know I was taking this thread seriously ... until now.
megeddo
07-10-07, 02:10 PM :weep:

I am crying because I am laughing so much. Derailing a game is much more different than derailing someone's destiny, to which I think you implied. Or... you're trying to save face and doing a **** poor job at it.
trapspringer
07-10-07, 02:23 PM So wait, do you derail your own game? Awesome.

Erm, to answer your questions:

Androcus Divinicus has a good answer for you on the wall break DC.

He is also right about grappling while falling.

He is mistaken about falling and AoO. If you threaten the square, you can make an AoO (and in fact you'd be doing that a lot because your leaving a threatened square at the rate of, like a hundred times a second).

That brings me to my final point. Do you know how fast things fall? I don't think you fully appreciate the brevity of a long drop out a tower. At most you'll be dealing with two or three rounds.
Androcus Divinicus
07-10-07, 02:35 PM That brings me to my final point. Do you know how fast things fall? I don't think you fully appreciate the brevity of a long drop out a tower. At most you'll be dealing with two or three rounds.

Indeed. I don't know how tall the towers in your campaign world are, but I think two or three rounds is a very liberal estimate. I did some number crunching on this a while back, and the archived thread is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-634594.html).

Also, while I realize that my ruling on AoO for falling creatures is technically not in line with a literal reading of the rules, I would use it (and suggest it to fellow DMs) because I think it makes sense.

J.
Apocolypse_77
07-10-07, 02:39 PM He is mistaken about falling and AoO. If you threaten the square, you can make an AoO (and in fact you'd be doing that a lot because your leaving a threatened square at the rate of, like a hundred times a second).

Um with respect to each other neither character would be moving, so there would be no leaving threatend squares. They won't individually fall on their own turns, it would be more along the lines of both characters drop so many feat at the begining of the round, and not, round begins, player 1 drop, then takes his action, player 2 drops then takes his action.

One other comment i would like to make is that if your NPC is breaking through walls in a dilapidated castle, then the structural integrity (which i assume would already be low) will drop, and your character may be dealing with some kind of roof collapse. I would roll d% for it if i were you.
Alltat
07-10-07, 03:17 PM As has been pointed out, the "two or three" rounds answer is way off unless we're talking falls of 500+ feet. Unless you're falling off an extremely high tower or cliff, or falling off something that was flying, you'll hit the ground more or less instantly. AoOs would probably be the last thing on your mind, as during free fall, things (and people) fall very very fast.
_Jayne_Cobb_
07-10-07, 03:49 PM As has been pointed out, the "two or three" rounds answer is way off unless we're talking falls of 500+ feet.

Way more than that. A falling person will fall hit terminal velocity after about 3 seconds and will have fallen about 700 feet in a single round. After that, they will be falling an additional 1062 fps per round. After just 2 rounds they will have fallen 1/3 of a mile.

Unless one has some very tall towers this isn't going to happen, and any tower that tall with walls you can knock someone through isn't going to be around long enough for you to knock someone though the wall.
trapspringer
07-10-07, 05:54 PM Um with respect to each other neither character would be moving, so there would be no leaving threatend squares. They won't individually fall on their own turns, it would be more along the lines of both characters drop so many feat at the begining of the round, and not, round begins, player 1 drop, then takes his action, player 2 drops then takes his action.

The RAW doesn't mention anything about relative movement, only that leaving a threatened square provokes an AoO.

Way more than that. A falling person will fall hit terminal velocity after about 3 seconds and will have fallen about 700 feet in a single round. After that, they will be falling an additional 1062 fps per round. After just 2 rounds they will have fallen 1/3 of a mile.

Unless one has some very tall towers this isn't going to happen, and any tower that tall with walls you can knock someone through isn't going to be around long enough for you to knock someone though the wall.

Agree, but remember this is D&D. It might a one hundred foot bell tower on top of an island flying a thousand feet above the ocean. Like I said, at most, we're talkin' about a few rounds. My point was that it won't exactly be an airborne combat like in LotR (which, as someone pointed out, actually covered some absurdly implausible distance that would best be measured in thousands of miles.)
Jagyr Ebonwood
07-10-07, 05:59 PM My questions are this

What are the rules for bull rushing someone through a wall?
Can you grapple someone in mid-air

I want to be in this game. I don't care if it's railroaded, that fight scene is just plain cool.
redless
07-10-07, 06:46 PM Thanks for all the post.

I left alot of information out of my OP.

The castle is flying.

The only reason it was derailed was I have a player (he got bull-rushed) who wouldn't accept my ruling on it. I said that Doogan strength check was high enough to break the wall. He was so mad that I did he effectively stopped the game through a combination of challenging my ruling and not letting anything happen by whining to other characters.

He's a lvl 13 wizard and he doesn't have a wand of feather fall, or anything else that would have prevented his death. I told them all you might want to prepare for falling since there all half a mile up. They all bought flying broom sticks which they gave to a cohort who they had stand outside in case they died he was going to get their allies (I let my players make two characters so they can keep playing even if they die) But I digress.

So the wizard falls to death because he wasn't prepared which in combination to my ruling on the bull rush caused my game to become derailed.

PS
If your wondering why I had the Blackguard bull rush the wizard and not the fighter or cleric or anyone else that probably would have had a fighting chance is because the player decided his Chaotic Neutral wizard would laugh at the Blackguard after his dead wife cursed him.
Ack
07-10-07, 08:17 PM Chaotic Stupid ftw.
trapspringer
07-10-07, 11:10 PM The castle is flying.

See? Now quite tryin' to nit-pick my posts (if there were some way to condense situations like these into something sig-able I would so that I would no longer have to put up with people being all like "ooh, but your wrong by some tiny amount, trapspringer, let me devote a page to it" only to later learn there was an insight in my post they didn't consider).

And nothing personal, "ooh but your wrong" guy, its just that this happens all the time.

Also, I agree that is a cool fight scene. And flying towers are generally cool places to have a fight. So props on that.
Andrew
07-11-07, 08:44 AM Your third question sounds like it could be missing important info. Is the circumstance you're wondering about two people falling together, and one is hoping to grapple another that casts feather fall? Quickened spells / immediate action spells (like feather fall) don't provoke AoO's.
redless
07-18-07, 03:53 PM I was considering fudging and letting the wizard have a wand that would prevent his death. He refused it on the grounds that it wasn't true role playing. He quit my game right after that. :D but with him we all decided to wrap up the campaign. that was sadly the longest campaign I'd been in and now its done. still now that I get to be a pc thats probably the first thing I'm going to try to do.
Ace_of_Night
07-18-07, 04:25 PM Your entire D&D campaign fell apart because a player with a wizard was upset about falling to death, after provoking a pretty damn strong black guard in a tower that's floating half a mile from the ground?... Bloody hell, prepare feather fall, which only costs you one low level spell slot, and you can prevent this pretty obvious hazard.
If a character starts dancing in front of a chromatic dragon while shouting obscenities at it, and then instantly gets killed by it, that's just plain dumb, but at least let it end there, admit you made a mistake, and reroll a new character/get the old one resurrected. Don't get angry at the DM and leave.
Oh well, too bad of a good campaign, hope you enjoy the new one as a PC at least ^^
Though, is the wizard guy in that new adventure too?
sensestaker
07-18-07, 04:30 PM If your wondering why I had the Blackguard bull rush the wizard and not the fighter or cleric or anyone else that probably would have had a fighting chance is because the player decided his Chaotic Neutral wizard would laugh at the Blackguard after his dead wife cursed him.

Sounds like his character got what was coming to him. Certain people in certain situations should NOT be laughed at, and Doogan was clearly one of those people in one of those situations. He should have known better.

Besides, that's an AWESOME death. I'd be okay with having one of my char's die like that. I'd roleplay the whole fall down. It would be epic. :cool:
Ace_of_Night
07-18-07, 04:35 PM Besides, that's an AWESOME death. I'd be okay with having one of my char's die like that. I'd roleplay the whole fall down. It would be epic. :cool:
The whole 1 round of falling if I read up on what the previous posters wrote? :P
sensestaker
07-18-07, 05:03 PM The whole 1 round of falling if I read up on what the previous posters wrote? :P

I can do a whole lot of swearing in six seconds. :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
redless 07-10-07, 12:53 AM	I'm running a game right now where the main villain is a ex-paladin blackguard berserker who wants to be redeemed but can't escape his guilt of killing his wife (Berserk for the win). The PC's tried to redeem Doogan (the villain) by bringing his wifes remains to him and getting her to forgive him. It was my idea to get them to do that even though they thought it was theirs:D What happened was she did not forgive him. In fact she scorned him and cursed him. Well, needless to say Doogan was ****** Berseked and accidentally derailed my game. My questions are this What are the rules for bull rushing someone through a wall? I think that if the wall is weak (dilapidated castle weak) It should be possible. Can you grapple someone in mid-air If you're falling and casting a spell do provoke attacks of oppertunity to anyone within striking distance if there falling too? Thanks D&D boards!
Androcus Divinicus 07-10-07, 01:36 AM	What are the rules for bull rushing someone through a wall? I think that if the wall is weak (dilapidated castle weak) It should be possible. There aren't really rules for this (so far as I know), but I would do something like this: Set the "Break DC" for the wall (which you should be able to derive from DMG p. 60). Then have the bull-rusher make a strength check (possibly with penalties for having to drive someone through the wall, or possibly with bonuses if he still has distance left on his bull-rush attempt, whichever feels best to you). I'd assign damage to the guy who got knocked through the wall ... probably on the order of falling damage halved (e.g. if he was bullrushed 10ft into the wall, I'd do a 1d6/2). If the strength check is successful, they both go tumbling through the wall (though possibly allow a reflex save or climb check to catch part of the wall and stop the fall). Can you grapple someone in mid-airYou can. But unless the creature involved has a fly speed (or some kind of homebrew feat), I would say it'd be difficult to close with the person while you're falling. If the two characters in question were both already together (as would be the case if they had both tumbled through a wall) then, yes I'd say it could resolve as a standard grapple check. If you're falling and casting a spell do provoke attacks of oppertunity to anyone within striking distance if there falling too? I'd say, not unless the person making the AoO had a fly speed. But if you don't have a fly speed and you're falling, I'd say that you need to make a concentration check to cast (extrapolate from PHB p. 70, but I'd say a DC 15 or 20 is appropriate). Also, if you're already grappled (assuming that all three of these questions are directly related) then normal rules apply for casting a spell while grappled. Regards, Justin.
Thubby 07-10-07, 01:59 AM	in order: dunno yes i would say yes sorry for the short answers, rushed, will elaborate later.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-10-07, 12:31 PM	I'm running a game right now where the main villain is a ex-paladin blackguard berserker who wants to be redeemed but can't escape his guilt of killing his wife (Berserk for the win). The PC's tried to redeem Doogan (the villain) by bringing his wifes remains to him and getting her to forgive him. It was my idea to get them to do that even though they thought it was theirs:D What happened was she did not forgive him. In fact she scorned him and cursed him. Well, needless to say Doogan was ****** Berseked and accidentally derailed my game. How is this "accidental?" You lead the PCs to this action and you determined the results of it. The situation was all entirely of your design, and the consequences are entirely your fault. This is the precise opposite of "accidental."
kentonblack 07-10-07, 12:33 PM	ZING
Androcus Divinicus 07-10-07, 01:31 PM	This is the precise opposite of "accidental." You know I was thinking the exact same thing ...
redless 07-10-07, 01:32 PM	How is this "accidental?" You lead the PCs to this action and you determined the results of it. The situation was all entirely of your design, and the consequences are entirely your fault. This is the precise opposite of "accidental." or.... is it
Androcus Divinicus 07-10-07, 01:35 PM	or.... is it :facepalm: ... you know I was taking this thread seriously ... until now.
megeddo 07-10-07, 02:10 PM	:weep: I am crying because I am laughing so much. Derailing a game is much more different than derailing someone's destiny, to which I think you implied. Or... you're trying to save face and doing a **** poor job at it.
trapspringer 07-10-07, 02:23 PM	So wait, do you derail your own game? Awesome. Erm, to answer your questions: Androcus Divinicus has a good answer for you on the wall break DC. He is also right about grappling while falling. He is mistaken about falling and AoO. If you threaten the square, you can make an AoO (and in fact you'd be doing that a lot because your leaving a threatened square at the rate of, like a hundred times a second). That brings me to my final point. Do you know how fast things fall? I don't think you fully appreciate the brevity of a long drop out a tower. At most you'll be dealing with two or three rounds.
Androcus Divinicus 07-10-07, 02:35 PM	That brings me to my final point. Do you know how fast things fall? I don't think you fully appreciate the brevity of a long drop out a tower. At most you'll be dealing with two or three rounds. Indeed. I don't know how tall the towers in your campaign world are, but I think two or three rounds is a very liberal estimate. I did some number crunching on this a while back, and the archived thread is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-634594.html). Also, while I realize that my ruling on AoO for falling creatures is technically not in line with a literal reading of the rules, I would use it (and suggest it to fellow DMs) because I think it makes sense. J.
Apocolypse_77 07-10-07, 02:39 PM	He is mistaken about falling and AoO. If you threaten the square, you can make an AoO (and in fact you'd be doing that a lot because your leaving a threatened square at the rate of, like a hundred times a second). Um with respect to each other neither character would be moving, so there would be no leaving threatend squares. They won't individually fall on their own turns, it would be more along the lines of both characters drop so many feat at the begining of the round, and not, round begins, player 1 drop, then takes his action, player 2 drops then takes his action. One other comment i would like to make is that if your NPC is breaking through walls in a dilapidated castle, then the structural integrity (which i assume would already be low) will drop, and your character may be dealing with some kind of roof collapse. I would roll d% for it if i were you.
Alltat 07-10-07, 03:17 PM	As has been pointed out, the "two or three" rounds answer is way off unless we're talking falls of 500+ feet. Unless you're falling off an extremely high tower or cliff, or falling off something that was flying, you'll hit the ground more or less instantly. AoOs would probably be the last thing on your mind, as during free fall, things (and people) fall very very fast.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-10-07, 03:49 PM	As has been pointed out, the "two or three" rounds answer is way off unless we're talking falls of 500+ feet. Way more than that. A falling person will fall hit terminal velocity after about 3 seconds and will have fallen about 700 feet in a single round. After that, they will be falling an additional 1062 fps per round. After just 2 rounds they will have fallen 1/3 of a mile. Unless one has some very tall towers this isn't going to happen, and any tower that tall with walls you can knock someone through isn't going to be around long enough for you to knock someone though the wall.
trapspringer 07-10-07, 05:54 PM	Um with respect to each other neither character would be moving, so there would be no leaving threatend squares. They won't individually fall on their own turns, it would be more along the lines of both characters drop so many feat at the begining of the round, and not, round begins, player 1 drop, then takes his action, player 2 drops then takes his action. The RAW doesn't mention anything about relative movement, only that leaving a threatened square provokes an AoO. Way more than that. A falling person will fall hit terminal velocity after about 3 seconds and will have fallen about 700 feet in a single round. After that, they will be falling an additional 1062 fps per round. After just 2 rounds they will have fallen 1/3 of a mile. Unless one has some very tall towers this isn't going to happen, and any tower that tall with walls you can knock someone through isn't going to be around long enough for you to knock someone though the wall. Agree, but remember this is D&D. It might a one hundred foot bell tower on top of an island flying a thousand feet above the ocean. Like I said, at most, we're talkin' about a few rounds. My point was that it won't exactly be an airborne combat like in LotR (which, as someone pointed out, actually covered some absurdly implausible distance that would best be measured in thousands of miles.)
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-10-07, 05:59 PM	My questions are this What are the rules for bull rushing someone through a wall? Can you grapple someone in mid-air I want to be in this game. I don't care if it's railroaded, that fight scene is just plain cool.
redless 07-10-07, 06:46 PM	Thanks for all the post. I left alot of information out of my OP. The castle is flying. The only reason it was derailed was I have a player (he got bull-rushed) who wouldn't accept my ruling on it. I said that Doogan strength check was high enough to break the wall. He was so mad that I did he effectively stopped the game through a combination of challenging my ruling and not letting anything happen by whining to other characters. He's a lvl 13 wizard and he doesn't have a wand of feather fall, or anything else that would have prevented his death. I told them all you might want to prepare for falling since there all half a mile up. They all bought flying broom sticks which they gave to a cohort who they had stand outside in case they died he was going to get their allies (I let my players make two characters so they can keep playing even if they die) But I digress. So the wizard falls to death because he wasn't prepared which in combination to my ruling on the bull rush caused my game to become derailed. PS If your wondering why I had the Blackguard bull rush the wizard and not the fighter or cleric or anyone else that probably would have had a fighting chance is because the player decided his Chaotic Neutral wizard would laugh at the Blackguard after his dead wife cursed him.
Ack 07-10-07, 08:17 PM	Chaotic Stupid ftw.
trapspringer 07-10-07, 11:10 PM	The castle is flying. See? Now quite tryin' to nit-pick my posts (if there were some way to condense situations like these into something sig-able I would so that I would no longer have to put up with people being all like "ooh, but your wrong by some tiny amount, trapspringer, let me devote a page to it" only to later learn there was an insight in my post they didn't consider). And nothing personal, "ooh but your wrong" guy, its just that this happens all the time. Also, I agree that is a cool fight scene. And flying towers are generally cool places to have a fight. So props on that.
Andrew 07-11-07, 08:44 AM	Your third question sounds like it could be missing important info. Is the circumstance you're wondering about two people falling together, and one is hoping to grapple another that casts feather fall? Quickened spells / immediate action spells (like feather fall) don't provoke AoO's.
redless 07-18-07, 03:53 PM	I was considering fudging and letting the wizard have a wand that would prevent his death. He refused it on the grounds that it wasn't true role playing. He quit my game right after that. :D but with him we all decided to wrap up the campaign. that was sadly the longest campaign I'd been in and now its done. still now that I get to be a pc thats probably the first thing I'm going to try to do.
Ace_of_Night 07-18-07, 04:25 PM	Your entire D&D campaign fell apart because a player with a wizard was upset about falling to death, after provoking a pretty damn strong black guard in a tower that's floating half a mile from the ground?... Bloody hell, prepare feather fall, which only costs you one low level spell slot, and you can prevent this pretty obvious hazard. If a character starts dancing in front of a chromatic dragon while shouting obscenities at it, and then instantly gets killed by it, that's just plain dumb, but at least let it end there, admit you made a mistake, and reroll a new character/get the old one resurrected. Don't get angry at the DM and leave. Oh well, too bad of a good campaign, hope you enjoy the new one as a PC at least ^^ Though, is the wizard guy in that new adventure too?
sensestaker 07-18-07, 04:30 PM	If your wondering why I had the Blackguard bull rush the wizard and not the fighter or cleric or anyone else that probably would have had a fighting chance is because the player decided his Chaotic Neutral wizard would laugh at the Blackguard after his dead wife cursed him. Sounds like his character got what was coming to him. Certain people in certain situations should NOT be laughed at, and Doogan was clearly one of those people in one of those situations. He should have known better. Besides, that's an AWESOME death. I'd be okay with having one of my char's die like that. I'd roleplay the whole fall down. It would be epic. :cool:
Ace_of_Night 07-18-07, 04:35 PM	Besides, that's an AWESOME death. I'd be okay with having one of my char's die like that. I'd roleplay the whole fall down. It would be epic. :cool: The whole 1 round of falling if I read up on what the previous posters wrote? :P
sensestaker 07-18-07, 05:03 PM	The whole 1 round of falling if I read up on what the previous posters wrote? :P I can do a whole lot of swearing in six seconds. :P