Bullrushing someone into someone else's square [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bullrushing someone into someone else's square [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talon Stormwarden
06-26-05, 01:05 PM Can't find anything about this in the rules or FAQ. When you succeed in a bullrush, you push the opponent back 5 feet plus another 5 feet for every 5 by which you won the strength check, if you choose. What happens if you end the push in an ally's or opponent's square. I'd think he would fall prone just as you would if you'd lost the strength check and your original square is occupied. As far as pushing them beyond that, I think I'd rule the bullrush ends once you push the opponent into another occupied square.
TmDurn7
06-28-05, 08:21 AM Well, prone or not, i would think being pushed into one of the PCs squares would result in an attack of opportunity. Could be helpful for them, aka, pushing them within 5ft of a rogue who sees this and sneak attacks them as the other PC rushes them. Other than that, i'd agree that the moving would stop when you hit that occupied square, otherwise, the occupying character may make a Ref save or the rushing character might accidentally slam the enemy into them

Anyone else know anything more official? Highly likely i've missed some errata or related rule, so this is just off the top of my head
alecthemad
06-28-05, 10:10 AM I agree with the idea that they should fall prone into the square of the new character. Bullrush is a funny animal though. What if the rusher rolled enough that he would push through the new character's square. I believe that would initiate a new bull rush. Does the new rushee get a bonus since he is already rushing someone?

Probably won't matter much for my group, they rarely rush anyone.
Zym
06-28-05, 10:49 AM From the SRD:

Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can't, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)
If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

Trample and Overrun state the above (ending movement - illegal space) as well.

So it seems to come down to either fall prone or forced to a legal position. I would probably go with the latter, as it is reiterated a few times in similar situations of illegal movement. The above do however seem to be discussed in a willing movement and not a forced movement fashion.

Interesting question either way.
Chobemaster
06-28-05, 11:18 AM I agree with the idea that they should fall prone into the square of the new character. Bullrush is a funny animal though. What if the rusher rolled enough that he would push through the new character's square. I believe that would initiate a new bull rush. Does the new rushee get a bonus since he is already rushing someone?

Probably won't matter much for my group, they rarely rush anyone.

Inhabitant of the new square should probably be allowed to either allow the pass or resist, just as with normal movement through occupied squares.
Aurum
06-28-05, 12:46 PM I'd treat the action as an overrun that did not use the bullrushed's standard action. If the bullrushed is pushed back through multiple targets, each has this option.

If the bullrushed ends its movement in an occupied square, then either you fall prone or they do, unless the AoO ends with the two grappling. The rules for Overrun spells out who falls prone.

OVERRUN
You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.) With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round.
If you’re attempting to overrun an opponent, follow these steps.
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.
Step 2: Opponent Avoids? The defender has the option to simply avoid you. If he avoids you, he doesn’t suffer any ill effect and you may keep moving (You can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by.) The overrun attempt doesn’t count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent’s square). If your opponent doesn’t avoid you, move to Step 3.
Step 3: Opponent Blocks? If your opponent blocks you, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus on the check for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you knock the defender prone. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check (including the size modifiers noted above, but no other modifiers) to try to knock you prone.
Step 4: Consequences. If you succeed in knocking your opponent prone, you can continue your movement as normal. If you fail and are knocked prone in turn, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came and fall prone, ending your movement there. If you fail but are not knocked prone, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came, ending your movement there. If that square is occupied, you fall prone in that square.
Improved Overrun: If you have the Improved Overrun feat, your target may not choose to avoid you.
Mounted Overrun (Trample): If you attempt an overrun while mounted, your mount makes the Strength check to determine the success or failure of the overrun attack (and applies its size modifier, rather than yours). If you have the Trample feat and attempt an overrun while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you, and if you knock your opponent prone with the overrun, your mount may make one hoof attack against your opponent.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talon Stormwarden 06-26-05, 01:05 PM	Can't find anything about this in the rules or FAQ. When you succeed in a bullrush, you push the opponent back 5 feet plus another 5 feet for every 5 by which you won the strength check, if you choose. What happens if you end the push in an ally's or opponent's square. I'd think he would fall prone just as you would if you'd lost the strength check and your original square is occupied. As far as pushing them beyond that, I think I'd rule the bullrush ends once you push the opponent into another occupied square.
TmDurn7 06-28-05, 08:21 AM	Well, prone or not, i would think being pushed into one of the PCs squares would result in an attack of opportunity. Could be helpful for them, aka, pushing them within 5ft of a rogue who sees this and sneak attacks them as the other PC rushes them. Other than that, i'd agree that the moving would stop when you hit that occupied square, otherwise, the occupying character may make a Ref save or the rushing character might accidentally slam the enemy into them Anyone else know anything more official? Highly likely i've missed some errata or related rule, so this is just off the top of my head
alecthemad 06-28-05, 10:10 AM	I agree with the idea that they should fall prone into the square of the new character. Bullrush is a funny animal though. What if the rusher rolled enough that he would push through the new character's square. I believe that would initiate a new bull rush. Does the new rushee get a bonus since he is already rushing someone? Probably won't matter much for my group, they rarely rush anyone.
Zym 06-28-05, 10:49 AM	From the SRD: Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can't, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.) If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space. Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. Trample and Overrun state the above (ending movement - illegal space) as well. So it seems to come down to either fall prone or forced to a legal position. I would probably go with the latter, as it is reiterated a few times in similar situations of illegal movement. The above do however seem to be discussed in a willing movement and not a forced movement fashion. Interesting question either way.
Chobemaster 06-28-05, 11:18 AM	I agree with the idea that they should fall prone into the square of the new character. Bullrush is a funny animal though. What if the rusher rolled enough that he would push through the new character's square. I believe that would initiate a new bull rush. Does the new rushee get a bonus since he is already rushing someone? Probably won't matter much for my group, they rarely rush anyone. Inhabitant of the new square should probably be allowed to either allow the pass or resist, just as with normal movement through occupied squares.
Aurum 06-28-05, 12:46 PM	I'd treat the action as an overrun that did not use the bullrushed's standard action. If the bullrushed is pushed back through multiple targets, each has this option. If the bullrushed ends its movement in an occupied square, then either you fall prone or they do, unless the AoO ends with the two grappling. The rules for Overrun spells out who falls prone. OVERRUN You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.) With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round. If you’re attempting to overrun an opponent, follow these steps. Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender. Step 2: Opponent Avoids? The defender has the option to simply avoid you. If he avoids you, he doesn’t suffer any ill effect and you may keep moving (You can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by.) The overrun attempt doesn’t count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent’s square). If your opponent doesn’t avoid you, move to Step 3. Step 3: Opponent Blocks? If your opponent blocks you, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus on the check for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you knock the defender prone. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check (including the size modifiers noted above, but no other modifiers) to try to knock you prone. Step 4: Consequences. If you succeed in knocking your opponent prone, you can continue your movement as normal. If you fail and are knocked prone in turn, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came and fall prone, ending your movement there. If you fail but are not knocked prone, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came, ending your movement there. If that square is occupied, you fall prone in that square. Improved Overrun: If you have the Improved Overrun feat, your target may not choose to avoid you. Mounted Overrun (Trample): If you attempt an overrun while mounted, your mount makes the Strength check to determine the success or failure of the overrun attack (and applies its size modifier, rather than yours). If you have the Trample feat and attempt an overrun while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you, and if you knock your opponent prone with the overrun, your mount may make one hoof attack against your opponent.