Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Valk 03-16-07, 04:18 AM	The poor party rogue that oftens wastes a lot of table time doing useless solo-missions encountered some nasties on such missions and fled into a house and hid herself in the closet. The nasties were a ghoul, a babau and a quasit. The quasit managed to follow her and would like to: (The closet and the house are wooden.) 1. Alternate form into a human. 2. Get boards, nails, a hammer, firewood, oil, and alchemist fire. 3. Kill commoners in the house. 4. Board up the closet door. 5. Pile up wood in front of the door. 6. Apply oil. 7. Apply alchemist fire. 8. Humm the requiem from Mozart. (seriously) 9. Leave 10. Rogue burns to death, fire rules of stormwrack are used, smoke inhalation rules of DMG are used. - the chance the fire will spread thorugh the village is low, it's cold and wet outside. The wet part applies a +4 bonus to the resist fire check, the cold part a DM given +1 circumstance bonus. For the door I thought he'd first jam it, and then board it up. Break jammed door DC: 15 Break boarded door DC: 22 Now, provided the rogue does not break out of the closet before it's boarded up what escape options should be offered? Or is this scheme way too evil even for a quasit? Or should I just not do it because it could appear to be out of spite (it's not out of spite; and truth is, the rogue-player is too oblivious to notice probably), or should I not do it because the party was cheering at me for almost killing her because they need a healer? Ow, and the party is currently out looking for her using detect magic to scan through the wooden houses. And the rogue has 11 hp left and no healing potions left.
Wraithcat* 03-16-07, 04:51 AM	Generally, I think its bad form to put a player into a situation in which they are guaranteed to die, unless it involves an agreed roleplaying choice by the player. Normally these are situations such as the "Heroic Death", or the "Stupidly Hillarious Death". IF the player agrees to it beforehand and it will postively advance the game, then sure run it. But otherwise steer clear of certain death. If the character is being stupid, then they can meet an untimely end as a direct result of thier stupidity, rather than DM fiat. Also, the situation that you've described just seems so contrived that it screams "UNFAIR DM INTERVENTION!!" At the very least, you want to give the Player some generous listen checks (perhaps to hear the family being killed, begging for mercy, or simply stop breathing; a mid-high level rogue has ears like a stethescope), in order to figure out what is going on, and a chance to escape once the nailing of wood commences. Now, if this escape leads into the arms of the afformentioned ghoul, then so be it, but at least it wasn't you who did the evil deed!!
Valk 03-16-07, 06:51 AM	The list was what the quasit 'would like to do', with that I meant that he faced checks but I thought that went without saying. The planned checks and events are: 2. Hear the door to the house being opened and hear someone putting down some stuff. Rogue will probably ignore this 3. Roll to hear someone sneaking up stairs (closet door imposes -10 to listen). Both commoners roll listen (-10 because they are sleeping) against the quasit, quasit cdg commoner 1, commoner 2 rolls new listen check (DC 0) and then follows a combat encounter between npc's if the npc succeeds, to hear this rogue must succeed on listen check DC -10 (floor imposes -10 penalty to listen). Rogue will probably ignore walking, rogue will certainly react to combat 4. Jam the closet door (full round action) - rogue might see a wedge shaped piece of wood under the door jamming it - depends on lighting. The quasit then needs 3 move actions before first nail is hammered in with standard actions (30 points worth of strength check to hammer it in), move action for second nail and so on, each nail increases break DC by 1 up to DC 22. ~25% chance the rogue won't attempt to break free at this point 5. Rogue hears wood being piled up. - at this point it will be too late though, I think. I do not know what the rogue has on equipment list other than 2 empty healing potions 9. When the door reaches 50% hp the break DC drops by an amount (see DMG) and the rogue might still break free.
bob_the_great 03-16-07, 06:55 AM	if he got himself into the situation where he was being chased and he failed to lose them and he chose to hide in a small enclosed space and they found him i don't really see how it is unfair. my only concern is that their being able to follow him and find him were done fairly. if he loses them in an alley and they just happen to find the right house and just happen to locate him in the closet then it isn't fair. if he went ahead and hunkered down in the closet even though he hadn't lost them then let him burn. actions have consequences, and if his actions have left him hiding in a closet with a baddie outside aware of where he is then he should feel the consequences. games often go wrong when DMs remove consequences, not when they enforce them. I guess my other concern is how he ran into the baddies. if he was just doing a mundane mission and you threw them at him as a punishment then you weren't being fair. as long as him encountering them was fair, and their following/finding him was fair, then them killing him is fair. in that instance he only has himself to blame for leaving the party and bringing trouble upon himself.
Valk 03-16-07, 06:58 AM	The quasit was capable of keeping up with the rogue, quasit was invisible, rogue did not leave quasit's sight for a single round so no spot checks were required (you cannot hide while being observed right, at least, in that case the hide fails against this observer). Rogue was asked for 2 spot checks to spot invisible quasit but failed those. Ow, and the rogue was, on her own, in the evening, trying to find someone who they learned looked shady and was asking around for them. This creature noted that the rogue pursued them and then moved out of hiding to walk into an alley, the rogue was not hinted by not having to make a spot check to see this and followed him. There this creature, a ghoul, ambushed her with a babau. I don't deal in punishments, stupidity punishes itself such as here, 'my baddies' do deal in great opportunities. When baddies are already around and they observe one partymember walking around they see opportunity.
Thale 03-16-07, 01:50 PM	That's funny. People usually don't start flaming until they come out of the closet.
kelvinaw273 03-16-07, 03:09 PM	Escaping for the rogue is easy - notice smoke, open closet, climb out of window onto roof, jump or use rope to swing/climb to nearby roof. Hope for rest of party to find them before more nasties do. The quasit is being nasty, but really this is more likely to just flush the rogue from cover than kill them.
Gold Medal Jedi 03-16-07, 04:00 PM	oops double post sorry
Harrison_Bergeron 03-16-07, 04:03 PM	I'd assume that trapping your players in a closet and burning them is illegal in most places. Burning their characters... well that's a whole 'nother topic. :D
Gold Medal Jedi 03-16-07, 04:08 PM	Ow, and the rogue was, on her own, in the evening, trying to find someone who they learned looked shady and was asking around for them. This creature noted that the rogue pursued them and then moved out of hiding to walk into an alley, the rogue was not hinted by not having to make a spot check to see this and followed him. There this creature, a ghoul, ambushed her with a babau. I gotta ask... Is someone beating you while you are posting? Beacuse if you are making an exclamation of rememberance, then you are spelling it wrong its Oh, otherwise the image of someone standing over you and beating you with a yardstick is coming to mind and I almost pee'd myself while i was reading your posts. :D ;) Oh, and as for your post, make the checks as you planned and if everything works out for your quasit, then your rogue burns. Yeah it sucks for them but thats the chance you take when you associate with fiends and devils, and then earn thier collective ire, and then make the silly assumption that you are always safe in a closet. Just be fair in your checks and allow the rogue every opportunity to escape while the quasit is hammering those blocks into the door. If she escapes, well then its initiative time and start fighting. I doubt seriously that either of the characters in question would be flat-footed if the rogue managed to escape. So let them duke it out and let that be that. But if the rogue doesnt manage to escape there is a slight chance that they can escape easier through the burning door and maybe get some 2nd or 3rd degree burns on the way through it.
ravenshrike 03-16-07, 04:11 PM	Firstly, jamming the door would make A LOT of noise if you wanted to make it difficult to get out(the DC 15 check). At this point the rogue should go nuts trying to get out. Moreover, all of them will automatically make a listen check every 6 seconds since they are not in combat from the moment the quasit enters. Quasit will be moving at half speed unless he wants to impose move silently penalties. If the commoners are sleeping in the same bed, likely if husband and wife, then unless your quasit is very good with a stilleto, the 2nd commoner will wake up. At this point there will be much screaming.
Aeromus 03-16-07, 09:04 PM	The sound of hammer and nails may frighten the rogue causing her to cower just as easily as burst forth and run. She put herself in this spot. Burn her.
Valk 03-17-07, 06:59 AM	I gotta ask... Is someone beating you while you are posting? Beacuse if you are making an exclamation of rememberance, then you are spelling it wrong its Oh, otherwise the image of someone standing over you and beating you with a yardstick is coming to mind and I almost pee'd myself while i was reading your posts. :D ;) Well I made my post and then when I red it afterward I noted I forgot to answer the question of how the rogue got there... so at edit I typed ' Ow' :P. - I'll use 'Oh' next time. And about the jamming and hammering, the jamming I see as a full-round action - it has been doon before in the campaign and DC 15 jamming a door was full-round action. While the quasit is hammering the rogue will probably be making strength checks every turn so there is a chance she'll get out. There is also a, kinda delicious, chance she thinks it's better to stay quiet while that happens and is only alarmed when it burns. And yes, damaged door easier to break. But 11 hp easy to burn aswell.
geekling 03-17-07, 07:59 AM	2. Get boards, nails, a hammer, firewood, oil, and alchemist fire. Where does your Quasit plan to get these things? Al Kaziim's all night building supply and alchemist shop? Why on earth would the Quasit assume that the rogue would still be hiding in the closet when it returns? We're not talking nipping out for a couple of seconds leaving that closet unwatched. At the very least - should your village have an all night building and alchemist supply shop. We're talking half an hour, probably more like an hour. Sorry, I'll have to say that it really smacks of stupidly elaborate plan that only makes sense if you counter in the Quasit having metagame knowledge of your rogues normal MO. If you really want to do this. Let me suggest this turn of events. 1. The Quasit takes a few turns to find something in the house to use as a door jam. - With apropriate listen checks for both player and commoners, of course. 2. The Quasit jams the door. This action is pretty impossible for the rogue not to notice. And quite likely will wake up the commoners. 3. The Quasit leaves to visit Al Kaziim's all-night building and alchemist supply shop. 4a. If the commoners have woken up from the racket of jamming the door. They investigate and probably find the rogue. 4b. If they haven't... And the rogue have been stupid enough to hang around for some 40 mins or so knowing the door is jammed. By all means have the Quasit return and set fire to the place.
Valk 03-17-07, 08:09 AM	He has been sitting there waiting for 10 minutes already, rogue not moving. Nails and all available (= stealable for tiny switching to medium invisible creature) at the local woodworker. There is indeed a chance she moves away just at this time or the party finds quasit or rogue.
geekling 03-17-07, 08:28 AM	Oh and one more thing. The DC to listen checks through a closed door is +5. Not +10.
Gold Medal Jedi 03-17-07, 02:14 PM	He has been sitting there waiting for 10 minutes already, rogue not moving. Nails and all available (= stealable for tiny switching to medium invisible creature) at the local woodworker. There is indeed a chance she moves away just at this time or the party finds quasit or rogue. Sounds like you got a perfectly good handle on things... Just keep at what you're doing and let us know how it pans out.
AntiDjinn 03-17-07, 02:36 PM	Assuming a normal wooden house (or hut if it is a peasant village) built with medieval level tech, it should be relatively simple for the rogue to escape if she chooses to do so. As a rogue she probably has her tools on her, which should include a crowbar. She doesn't need to work on the door (which would lead into the fire if she waits that long) when she can pry a board out of the back or side wall and escape into an adjoining room. Or she can go through the ceiling of the closet, though the construction of the floor and ceiling are likely to be sturdier than the walls. Unless your villagers are building their homes out of armored ceramic or she has mistaken a vault for a closet, there should be no material surrounding her that she can't make a hole through. Just because something appears as a wall on your map of the house does not make it indestructible. Interior walls are not generally built to the same specifications as exterior ones and the walls of a closet or vestibule are relatively unlikely to be load-bearing walls. As far as time: She is racing against smoke inhalation so stuffing clothing under the door should buy a few rounds. Structure fires burn for hours not seconds (if buildings burned in the course of rounds then fire departments would not even exist).
High Octane 03-17-07, 04:33 PM	Is the rogue named "Tom Cruise"?
celtredleg 03-17-07, 04:53 PM	Burn baby burn. Going solo is often a bad idea. It helps a lot to have frineds. If the Rogue wanted to boldly go on her own, she can barbeque on her own. No reason the monsters cant have a little fun on the way. They are evil for a reason.
Amon_WinterfallIV 03-17-07, 06:47 PM	Well, the house is wood-hardness 5. The rogue can probably bash a hole out of the wall of the house and escape. It would take minutes for the closet to completely catch fire, and the rogue is going to be aware of fire well beforehand. It doesn't seem terribly unfair, except that the town guard would probably react quickly to a fire as well. There is a chance that the closet never burns, that the fire is spotted quickly enough that it can be averted. Not likely though. Anyway, the rogue has minutes to go through the wall. With a d6 weapon (Wield it in both hands and use the CdG rules against the walls for max damage), it can be done.
Valk 03-18-07, 08:20 AM	She is not carrying a crowbar, just happen to know that. The closet is built under the stairs going up and the commoners are level 3 and somewhat wealthy so the house isn't to frail. I doubt if she can break the walls, she uses daggers and oh, I just remember, one dagger is adamantine. - k, she might break through the wall yes, but this isn't something I need to know or prepare for. I simply serve the situation and respond to her escape ideas, she could say 'I grab my scroll of passwall and make an exit' for all I know. If I hadn't considered breaking the wall and she asks if she can then I think and say 'try' and know for myself that with adamantine it's surely possible. If I know she can break the wall and she doesn't think of it then she is not going through the wall. I don't think it's legal for me to post the stormwrack fire rules, but it comes down to roughly a 3% chance of the fire spreading into the closet each round. The house is at the east edge of town and if I recall correctly the wind is coming from the west (we have sea-based campaign so we keep track of wind direction), so unless for that day the wind is slightly different the town guard will only notice when passing by the house.
Valk 03-18-07, 10:19 AM	Uhoh, I just remembered a babau is telepathic 100 ft. I checked telepathy up but couldn't be sure whether it was possible for the quasit to send a telepathic tell to the quasit (if some kind of connection needs to be maintained the babau certainly would). Also, what are the rules regarding telepathy and (wooden) walls?