Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bafaap 03-20-07, 03:49 PM	My PC's are on a mission to save a gnome village from some kobolds, but they're planning to burn down the entire place as soon as they've finished their mission. Just burning down the village is okay by me, but it totally messes up the story line: they are working for a good-allignent mercenary organisation and they should gain higher ranks and then win a world war form some sort of badguy morons who want to destroy all dragons. So what am I to do? Because I don't want to restrict their actions, but I don't want them messing up my campaign either.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-20-07, 03:52 PM	Wow... I'm not sure how you can get out of this one. If you want your campaign world to make sense, pretty much all the consequences of burning the village involve some kind of legal retribution. At the very least, their guild would give them a stern talking-to. Why do they want to burn it? Is it just random semi-IC craziness, or do their characters have a real reason to want to destroy what they want to protect?
Vharuck 03-20-07, 03:57 PM	Sadly, sometimes we plot and come up with brilliant storylines that would entertain every player. And they screw them up without ever knowing it. Roll with the punches, try to adapt it, but don't completely ignore the possibility of scrapping your current plan and making a new one.
Need_A_Life 03-20-07, 03:59 PM	Probably because they don't like gnomes, I'd wager... Had similar experiences with elves myself (except being a player *cough*) Really, a player will cause you to change your plans every once in a while, a group is just begging for anarchy in your storyline... So don't commit to a storyline more than your players already have. They don't know that you have an overarching plot... so while you're trying to adapt to their plans, they're trying to create some new plots by themselves.
lears_fool 03-20-07, 03:59 PM	I'm still stuck on 'what in the world are they thinking?' I mean, if there's a genuinely legitimate non-evil RP reason then you might have a good hook. But if their reason is 'because we can' or some other version of psychosis, I'd make sure they were prepared to roll up some less psycho characters.
Kensan_Oni 03-20-07, 04:03 PM	Ask the players what their alignment was again? If any of them were Good, knock them to neutral. Those that are Neutral, ask them to hand in their character sheets as they are now turned evil, and have them roll up new characters. Do not tolerate evil acts in your game.
Bafaap 03-20-07, 04:11 PM	Well, to get a good picture of their playing style, this is what they did in an other campaign: their objective: kill all enemy forces in the village their plan: maybe we kan burn them out of that house -damn this is a wooden village, it hasn't rained for a very long time and there's quite a stong wind... ah hell with it, let's do this this action resulted in burning down the entire village, including half their party and all their reinforcements and driving them straight into the arms of their enemy, who luckily fled for the fire, so three of them survived. and the fire also started an uncontrolable forestfire now they are wanted by the orcish forces and notorious criminals
Bafaap 03-20-07, 04:16 PM	their only reasons to burn the village down are the fun they get from it and their motto: XP and GP roleplaying only happens when there is no encounter or no way to start an encounter that (looks like it) can be won
lears_fool 03-20-07, 04:17 PM	So selfishly engaging acts that causes untold death and suffering to innocents? That's 'evil'. Perhaps you can come up with a mini-campaign in which they get wanted/captured and have a chance to redeem themselves. . but if you can't I'd really push the 'you're a GOOD guy' argument strongly. Immature players tend to play 'evil' very, very badly and unless you just like doing strings of combats they're not terribly fun to DM or storytell with.
Xexyz 03-20-07, 04:18 PM	Well, to get a good picture of their playing style, this is what they did in an other campaign: their objective: kill all enemy forces in the village their plan: maybe we kan burn them out of that house -damn this is a wooden village, it hasn't rained for a very long time and there's quite a stong wind... ah hell with it, let's do this this action resulted in burning down the entire village, including half their party and all their reinforcements and driving them straight into the arms of their enemy, who luckily fled for the fire, so three of them survived. and the fire also started an uncontrolable forestfire now they are wanted by the orcish forces and notorious criminals So in other words they're too lazy to come up with a better plan than to burn the entire village to the ground in order to take out a few select targets. Do not coddle them. They have to learn - the hard way it looks like - that actions have consequences. If you let them burn the village down and get away with it you'll just run into similar problems in the future. If this means the end of the characters, so be it. You need to put an end to this behavior. Stupidity is a curable disease, sometimes it just takes a few TPKs for the antidote to take effect.
Zorminster 03-20-07, 04:29 PM	hehe, sounds like a chance to develop a new really fun(ny) plot hook. Perhaps Moradin sees this as a hate crime against short people and suddenly all the gnome and dwarven forces of the world hate your party.
DrakePD 03-20-07, 04:35 PM	Oh the image of gnomes running around on fire! :evillaugh :evillaugh A bad rain storm moves into the area? DM Railroading or is this a sign from a greater power? Gnomes are good stone workers? Is the village all wood? A high level Druid sees them light the first house, puts out the fire and spanks the party pretty good? The gnome’s water supply has been tainted with a chemical that has infused itself within the gnomes, making them fire resistant? Or better yet, the gnomes become more flammable and "Explode". Some flaming fireballs running toward the party might make them ponder there actions a bit??
lears_fool 03-20-07, 04:41 PM	Honestly, I wouldn't reward them, I'm all for the TPK training program instead. As much fun from a DM's standpoint it may sound having them 'wanted' by some other group, or becoming outcasts or whatever, that very well may ENCOURAGE them. The fact is they're playing characters that wouldn't think twice about killing innocent gnome men, women, and children. . are those the sorts of characters you really want being the heroes in your campaigns?
DarkNick 03-20-07, 04:42 PM	Heck, just run with it. See if they will end up working for the other side in the war. Just an interesting idea you could use - a gnome rogue from the village bent on revenge. Wherever they stay, inn, barn, tent, forest - their lodgings mysteriously burn down causing damage to gear and mounts and the players.... see how they like it.
Kradlo 03-20-07, 04:54 PM	If you want only good characters in your campaign, you should state that in the beginning. As it is, you appear to have in mind a campaign for heroes, and have found yourself with kill-crazy pyromaniacs on a thrill ride. Talk to your players. With communication, both sides can spell out what they want from the campaign. If the two are not compatible, work out a solution, most likely a compromise. Good luck!
VanDeBeast 03-20-07, 05:50 PM	My PC's are on a mission to save a gnome village from some kobolds, but they're planning to burn down the entire place as soon as they've finished their mission. Just burning down the village is okay by me, but it totally messes up the story line: they are working for a good-allignent mercenary organisation and they should gain higher ranks and then win a world war form some sort of badguy morons who want to destroy all dragons. At some point the good-aligned mercenary would probably distance itself from the PCs, so you appear to have to adjust. Maybe you should have an out of character chat with your players about what they want. So what am I to do? Because I don't want to restrict their actions, but I don't want them messing up my campaign either. Your either going to have to rail-road them to keep campaign pure, or your going to have to release some degree of ownership of the campaign, because it sounds like the players have a different idea of how their campaign should go.
Voran 03-20-07, 06:31 PM	Hey I just realized something guys! What? The best way to protect everyone in the kingdom from the impending war is if we kill all of them first! Plus phat lewt! Heh, I like this kinda thinking. It reminds me of Fable, where you could blast your lightning bolt in town if you wanted to.
Downtym 03-20-07, 06:37 PM	their only reasons to burn the village down are the fun they get from it and their motto: XP and GP roleplaying only happens when there is no encounter or no way to start an encounter that (looks like it) can be won Suggestion: With a party like this, give them a dungeon full of bad guys and as few moral abiguities to deal with as possible. Because, honestly, staying above ground guarentees that they're never going to do anything you want them to.
Type2Demon 03-20-07, 07:02 PM	Its "Carrot & Stick" time. Give them the carrot but, when they set the carrot on fire, you must beat them with the flaming stick! Here's how: After they torch the village and leave, A powerful Paladin (Known only as the Armored Avenger), arrives at the village and swears a vow of JUSTICE!:fight!: The paladin is 8 levels higher than the party and his cohorts are 4 levels higher. The paladin trounces the adventurers down to their last hit points (which he causually removes with non-leathal damage). He then gives the captured miscreants a choice: 1) Face trial back at the gnome village (where gnomes are building an experimental mechanical gallows) or .... 2) Accept a GEAS or QUEST to atone for their evils by adventuring to find the means to Raise Dead any slain villagers and to rebuild the gnome village 3 times better than it was before. (A cleric friend will be happy to cast the Geas / atonement spell). BINGO--- now you have a good reason to go adventuring and huge opening for plot hooks!
Necrosis 03-20-07, 08:56 PM	I'd suggest you add a bunch of merceneriy organsiations competeing, with each other in various clean or not so clean ways. Than just play the mercs as you would NPC's wit hteir own agendas hates(which other mercs don't they like) and knowleagde. If the PC's current employer learns what has happened, jsut run it as an NPC encounter. Consider if tey have cost their boss's a payout and what the bos might do in reponse.
DyloniusFunk 03-20-07, 09:25 PM	Its "Carrot & Stick" time. Give them the carrot but, when they set the carrot on fire, you must beat them with the flaming stick! Here's how: After they torch the village and leave, A powerful Paladin (Known only as the Armored Avenger), arrives at the village and swears a vow of JUSTICE!:fight!: The paladin is 8 levels higher than the party and his cohorts are 4 levels higher. The paladin trounces the adventurers down to their last hit points (which he causually removes with non-leathal damage). He then gives the captured miscreants a choice: 1) Face trial back at the gnome village (where gnomes are building an experimental mechanical gallows) or .... 2) Accept a GEAS or QUEST to atone for their evils by adventuring to find the means to Raise Dead any slain villagers and to rebuild the gnome village 3 times better than it was before. (A cleric friend will be happy to cast the Geas / atonement spell). BINGO--- now you have a good reason to go adventuring and huge opening for plot hooks! Wow how convenient a high level NPC who just happened to appear out of think air.:rolleyes: . How origional I'm not saying that making the world react to your players actions is a bad idea, it's a great idea. It's simple physics, for each action thier is an equal and opposite reaction, but to have the reaction suddenly spawn on top of them like some MMO encounter is lame and puts you at thier level. Instead make it feel natural. Let them get away, maybe having them hear rumors of a group of vandals who destroyed a village. Continue with the campaign as best you can, if possible give them a mission in a dungeon somewhere. They will go hutning for XP and Gold. But make sure you are keepign track of how much time has passed since they burned down the village. The after a few days have gone by, have a party of law officials trakc them down, hopefully in the middle of a battle in the dungeon. Most likely they won't be covering thiere trail and if you give enough time to pass, the players will likely have forgotten about it and it gives you a way to get a party of cops after them. It's more natural and more surpriseing than the generic spawning paladin.
Bafaap 03-21-07, 03:22 AM	Its "Carrot & Stick" time. Give them the carrot but, when they set the carrot on fire, you must beat them with the flaming stick! Here's how: After they torch the village and leave, A powerful Paladin (Known only as the Armored Avenger), arrives at the village and swears a vow of JUSTICE!:fight!: The paladin is 8 levels higher than the party and his cohorts are 4 levels higher. The paladin trounces the adventurers down to their last hit points (which he causually removes with non-leathal damage). He then gives the captured miscreants a choice: 1) Face trial back at the gnome village (where gnomes are building an experimental mechanical gallows) or .... 2) Accept a GEAS or QUEST to atone for their evils by adventuring to find the means to Raise Dead any slain villagers and to rebuild the gnome village 3 times better than it was before. (A cleric friend will be happy to cast the Geas / atonement spell). BINGO--- now you have a good reason to go adventuring and huge opening for plot hooks! I like this idea and I think I have a way to place it into the story line, cause the leaders of their organisation are 2 lvl 40 characters who spend their time fighting balors, when a balor teleports itself, but it somehow goes wrong and he ends up in the village, the two überheroes teleport to the village to and suddenly see it is being burnt to the ground. Or is that to evil for a DM to do?
PoorHobo 03-21-07, 04:08 AM	I think vengence should be coming from the mercenary organization, not some out of nowehere paladin. Who the hell is goingto hire a mercenary organization that could go apepoop all over a town they want protecteced, not destroyed? If the PC's burn the village, the mercenary company is ruined thus they are going to want a measure of justice themselves. Burning down a village while blatantly working for an organization that doesn't work with the bad guys is bad ju ju. The playstyle of the campaing has just changed. There is a whole mercenary organization out after them, not only that there isn't a kingdom on the continent that will shelter them (barring some evil fortress). The mercenaries, will of course have their own high level NPCs (coupled with the hundreds of level 1 warriors). Every Gnome that hears of it will be gunning for them. They won't be safe, at this point its just how long can they run. Just be realistic with the response. If you and a bunch of friends burned a small town to the ground and slaughtered 100 men women and children for fun, do you really think that there is only going to be one lone cop out after you, or if just leave state it will be okay?
Comus 03-21-07, 10:27 AM	Honestly, I would not have paladins chasing them down, or their merc group hunting down the traitors, or anything like that at all. I would deprive them of even whatever enjoyment they'd gain from that. I'd just tell them to roll up new characters, as these are all evil and thus unplayable, and they would never hear about their old characters again. Repeat until lesson learned.
Type2Demon 03-21-07, 12:18 PM	Wow how convenient a high level NPC who just happened to appear out of think air.:rolleyes: . How origional. Sometimes cliche ideas work. :pbbbtt: It shows the players that there are other forces at work in the world. The paladin does not appear out of thin air, but is probably part of a religious order that patrols hot spots looking for evil or trouble. Burning the village made the party a valid target. I'm not saying that making the world react to your players actions is a bad idea, it's a great idea. It's simple physics, for each action thier is an equal and opposite reaction, but to have the reaction suddenly spawn on top of them like some MMO encounter is lame and puts you at thier level. Instead make it feel natural. Let them get away, maybe having them hear rumors of a group of vandals who destroyed a village. Continue with the campaign as best you can, if possible give them a mission in a dungeon somewhere. They will go hutning for XP and Gold. But make sure you are keepign track of how much time has passed since they burned down the village. The after a few days have gone by, have a party of law officials trakc them down, hopefully in the middle of a battle in the dungeon. Most likely they won't be covering thiere trail and if you give enough time to pass, the players will likely have forgotten about it and it gives you a way to get a party of cops after them. It's more natural and more surpriseing than the generic spawning paladin. The Paladin is a sort of "Cop". I don't remember stating that the paladin should magically appear among them. I was just giving an idea for the DM to flesh out if he likes it...Jeeze! Lighten up!
DyloniusFunk 03-21-07, 03:04 PM	Sometimes cliche ideas work. :pbbbtt: It shows the players that there are other forces at work in the world. The paladin does not appear out of thin air, but is probably part of a religious order that patrols hot spots looking for evil or trouble. Burning the village made the party a valid target. When a NPC who can smite the players with his pinky suddenly appears it's called a DM Beatdown. DM didn't like what you did, so here's something you have no shot in Hades of beating. The Paladin is a sort of "Cop". I don't remember stating that the paladin should magically appear among them. I was just giving an idea for the DM to flesh out if he likes it...Jeeze! Lighten up! Paladins are not cops. They are not under the same restrictions a cop is. A paladin can kill an evil person if he feels it is for the greater good, cops don't have that kind of power if they want to keep their badges. Maybe on TV but I'd like to think that TV is extreme and that most real world cops aren't as bad as say Vick Macky, who could never be a Paldin because his Smite Evil would be constantly dinging from his won aura.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-21-07, 03:12 PM	I think vengence should be coming from the mercenary organization, not some out of nowehere paladin. Who the hell is goingto hire a mercenary organization that could go apepoop all over a town they want protecteced, not destroyed? If the PC's burn the village, the mercenary company is ruined thus they are going to want a measure of justice themselves. Burning down a village while blatantly working for an organization that doesn't work with the bad guys is bad ju ju. The playstyle of the campaing has just changed. There is a whole mercenary organization out after them, not only that there isn't a kingdom on the continent that will shelter them (barring some evil fortress). The mercenaries, will of course have their own high level NPCs (coupled with the hundreds of level 1 warriors). Every Gnome that hears of it will be gunning for them. They won't be safe, at this point its just how long can they run. Just be realistic with the response. If you and a bunch of friends burned a small town to the ground and slaughtered 100 men women and children for fun, do you really think that there is only going to be one lone cop out after you, or if just leave state it will be okay? I sense much wisdom here. Rational (if overwhelming) reponses by existing NPCs is always better then GM summoned fiat. Though admittedly this might be the point where you sit down and ask if they really want to play a good aligned game. Or ask yourself if you really want to run an evil game. If the answer is no to both someone else needs to run.
lears_fool 03-21-07, 03:39 PM	When a NPC who can smite the players with his pinky suddenly appears it's called a DM Beatdown. DM didn't like what you did, so here's something you have no shot in Hades of beating. One thought, if the players are having their characters act so radically outside the campaign's structure that it approaches this level of horrific absurdity, then the unoriginal NPC Beatdown may not be a bad idea at all. Instead of the DM being forced to jump through hoops because the had their characters act in a way that was evil AND irrational (even evil people don't slaughter whole villages willy-nilly) the equally unlikely NPC reaction might jar them into at least playing their characters SANELY. Unless the players are very good role-players and this is a great twist, I'm very much against the idea of rewarding them for acting psychotic by giving them a campaign tailored around it, that's lazy DMing too IMHO. The best players are campaign-friendly, and these are not. .they CAN be trained, but it would take discussion, TPK, being placed on a geas to amend things, or something else to do that. Having the mercenaries go after them or something might make more sense 'in storyline', but that's forgetting the fact that THEY (as players running presumably good characters) jumped the shark here, and it's the DM's job to teach them that burning every village they see is probably bad for the game's overall fun-for-all quotient
Morits 03-21-07, 03:47 PM	Try talking. Read them the bit in DMG that NPCs act like real people with desires and agenda. If they don't believe that the Gnomes and Mercs will cry out for Justice, then play out the burning village, vengeful gnomes and mercs. Atonement mission looks so much like railroading that I recommend Total Pary Kill. Roll new characters. I understand the feeling. You've got a very sweet campaign planned and you yearn to play it properly. The PCs want to be evil. Either TPK them until they are willing to play Good, or let them be minions of BBEG and send Parties of Good NPCs to foil their evil plans.
ppirilla 03-21-07, 04:33 PM	It's been said, but if your players want to play hack-n-slash, it will be very difficult for you to introduce a major plotline like this. Make a dungeon, populate it, and let them have at it. If you don't want to run dungeon delves, talk to your players and try to work out a compromise, but you may be better off finding a new group.
Regular_K 03-21-07, 04:41 PM	you said until they reach higher ranks. Does this mean they are in a guild of sorts? Because if so, then don't give them pay, for killing those that they had to protect. Or, if they are a high rank, demote them. And, if you really must, put the next encounter in a huge thunderstorm with a tornado, and say it's from Garl Glittergold.
kelvinaw273 03-21-07, 04:56 PM	Well I would introduce them to the concept of consequences. 1) They want to burn down the village? Let them. 2) The gnomes will get a messenger to the mercenary company telling of what the PCs did. Gnome bards everywhere will be singing tales of their infamy. A price will be put on their heads, etc. 3) Let them enjoy being driven out by the good guys. Then they can be set on by the bad guys who don't trust them, too. 4) Run them raged. They have lots of people after them, who want justice. Crimes they don't do are blamed on them as well. They have no time to sleep and little to eat, they can't take any good loot with them or spend their gold because when they try they are recognised and local watch try to arrest them. When they are all finally dead, tell your players: "This wasn't the campaign I had planned. I spent a lot of time and trouble planning a great adventure arc for you, and you completely screwed it by behaving like pyromaniac asshats right at the start. I will be running a game again next week, to get back on track - new characters, new game. The requirements for characters are {insert here, but non-evil is a good start}. But if this happens again, I won't run any more games because it isn't worth the effort, quite frankly."
Bafaap 03-21-07, 05:03 PM	Well I would introduce them to the concept of consequences. 1) They want to burn down the village? Let them. 2) The gnomes will get a messenger to the mercenary company telling of what the PCs did. Gnome bards everywhere will be singing tales of their infamy. A price will be put on their heads, etc. 3) Let them enjoy being driven out by the good guys. Then they can be set on by the bad guys who don't trust them, too. 4) Run them raged. They have lots of people after them, who want justice. Crimes they don't do are blamed on them as well. They have no time to sleep and little to eat, they can't take any good loot with them or spend their gold because when they try they are recognised and local watch try to arrest them. When they are all finally dead, tell your players: "This wasn't the campaign I had planned. I spent a lot of time and trouble planning a great adventure arc for you, and you completely screwed it by behaving like pyromaniac asshats right at the start. I will be running a game again next week, to get back on track - new characters, new game. The requirements for characters are {insert here, but non-evil is a good start}. But if this happens again, I won't run any more games because it isn't worth the effort, quite frankly." I think your a little overreacting. How the hell can somebody recognise them if he has never seen them before?
Type2Demon 03-21-07, 08:08 PM	When a NPC who can smite the players with his pinky suddenly appears it's called a DM Beatdown. DM didn't like what you did, so here's something you have no shot in Hades of beating.. The DM beatdown only occurs when the DM goes for a TPK. This is just a DM "spanking" for players who need to realize that their actions do have consequences. There are always players who whine and cry when the world does not work like a video game and let then go on a killing spree through town without a suitable response from the NPCs. If you run your NPCs as nothing but paper targets for the players to cut down then you have a shallow campaign indeed. The players will rapidly become bored of trashing everything without respose or a suitable challenge and probably quit your campaign. Guiding the direction of the campaign by introducing a paladin, bounty hunters or whatever can help save it from collapsing into chaos. Paladins are not cops. They are not under the same restrictions a cop is. A paladin can kill an evil person if he feels it is for the greater good, cops don't have that kind of power if they want to keep their badges. Maybe on TV but I'd like to think that TV is extreme and that most real world cops aren't as bad as say Vick Macky, who could never be a Paldin because his Smite Evil would be constantly dinging from his won aura. Hmmm... An ENFORCER of law and good chosen by the Gods themselves is not a cop of sorts? Wait, I'll not turn this into a paladin behavior thread...there are enough of those already.
kelvinaw273 03-22-07, 12:00 AM	I think your a little overreacting. How the hell can somebody recognise them if he has never seen them before? Gnomes - favoured class, bard. Specialty of bard - spreading news and information via song and entertainment. Magic speciality of bard - charms and ILLUSIONS. That's how. Edit: Great lesson of bardic societies (such as the Celts or Greeks): Never annoy the Bard!
inthesto 03-22-07, 12:46 AM	I had some stuff to say, but I think PoorHobo covered it all pretty damn well. I mean, you tell us that this isn't new behavior from your players, so I'm slightly confused as to why you'd actually plan out a campaign in the style that you did. If you instead roll with the punches and turn the campaign into something where the party is a group of hunted criminals, hell, maybe the players will actually like it.
Bafaap 03-22-07, 03:09 AM	I mean, you tell us that this isn't new behavior from your players, so I'm slightly confused as to why you'd actually plan out a campaign in the style that you did. They usually only play like that when they're evil, but now they are good and neutral, so I thought this should work out just fine. But there's always one of who comes up with a stupid idea. And then you can say your storyline bye bye.
Amon_WinterfallIV 03-22-07, 04:42 AM	Another Vote for Immenent TPK. This is insane--the deaths of large numbers of innocents just for laughs? The real response leads to TPK, via campaign mechanics: 1. Gnome survivors (there will be some) appeal for help, tell the world of the atrocity committed against them. 2. Word Spreads (Perhaps not quickly, given the PCs a few days). Their Mercenary outfit, which is determined to be good-aligned (and not going to tolerate this kind of abuse) at a minimum fires all of them. More likely, they go for the capture-kill in its own right; 3. Assuming that their former employers aren't going to capture and execute them, or turn them over for justice, the world goes crazy looking for these characters. I would expect massive responses from all parties that care--Minimum CR 9s running around trying to fix this situation. 4. Survival. If the PCS can survive the onslaught of CR 9s (or maybe they are desperately trying to outrun word of mouth), they play on. Otherwise, the world is going to TPK them. It could be an interesting campaign, but its one where there is no help, nowhere to seek refuge, a game where the PCs might very well be chased into a distant dungeon.
Bafaap 03-22-07, 10:14 AM	Sounds like they better let their characters take a very long vacation and play some new ones instead. Thanks for all your help, this really helped me out.
Yakman 03-22-07, 11:35 AM	No. Have them play the hunted. Guys are coming out of the woodwork trying to get them--other adventuring parties for instance.