Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kalrin 03-17-04, 08:31 PM	As a curious question... Do any of you burn spellbooks? I was looking/thinking about the matter, and I figured that if spellbooks were considered "off-limits" then why have the Spell Mastery feat? or is that just considered to be screwing someone's character over or what?.. To put it simply, Do you have problems with burning spellbooks, if so why? and also, what's your opinion on the Spell Mastery feat in light of this?
Moblin 03-17-04, 09:01 PM	Taking away a wizards spellbook is to cripple the character for a short time until he recovers it. This is a great plot hook since you can be sure he’ll do anything to get it back but it shouldn’t be used to often as i leves the wizard player prety powerless. Destroying a wizard spellbook serves practically no purpose. The player gets frustrated since he’ll need a lot of gold and a lot of time to recreate it, and he has practically no spells to help him get the gold until he’s done (or if he finds another spellbook). If you really need to punish a player this hard there’s probably some larger problem inside your group The feat spellmastery is IMO best used on spells that’ll help you should you get capture or aide you in recovering your spell book (teleport and locate object springs to mind)
Kalrin 03-17-04, 09:28 PM	*Smile* the question was more academic.... but stealing the spellbooks... now that's something I hadn't thought of..... *Evil Idea forms in Mind*....
Burgundy Lotus 03-17-04, 09:36 PM	I might consider destroying a PCs spellbook. But only after they've done it to an NPC. THe NPC would do it as revenge.
MinusInnocence 03-17-04, 10:12 PM	This brings up an interesting point as to the dynamics of relationships between wizards, even rivals. Is destroying a competitor's spellbook considered to be the "last terrible threshold"? Is it taboo among wizards, who even if coming from different cultures spanning continents, planes and multiverses, all have that one thing in common? I would suspect that if a wizard developed the reputation as someone who left no holds barred and stopped at nothing to defeat a rival, up to and including crippling him magically, that person would probably be blacklisted among his other peers. Fellow wizards would cease to help him when he needed them most, and expulsion from academies, guilds or other arcane institutions may be in order. As to the original question, I would have to think long and hard before I actually destroyed a spellbook belonging to a PC. Capturing it, maybe... but only once as a really special plothook, and the person behind the theft would also have to be prepared to cross a threshold. I mean, a spellbook makes up a large part of what a wizard can consider to be his persona. If stealing a part of that person is something even other wizards dare not attempt, can you imagine how terrified a layperson would be?
FriendoftheDork 03-17-04, 10:46 PM	ehm... a wizard usually does his best to prevent harm to his spellbook. But spellbooks, although better protected than most books can indeed burn! But not from a fireball. So unless the wizard would lose his backpack into a pit of lava... Very few NPCs would ever burn a spellbook. It's like robbing a bank and then burning the bills. Of course, if some sort of primitive creature stumbled upon the book, and was cold... :smirk: doing this to punish a player is just lame.
simpkin 03-17-04, 10:47 PM	Just to kind of work with the previous posters ideas and comments. I once ran a high magic world with a large percent of the people as wizards. The idea of stealing or damaging another wizards spellbook was enough to get the offending wizard blacklisted forever by other wizards. However if you defeated a rival wizard in a wizard duel you were entitled to a spell of your chosing (from those he used in the fight) from his spellbook. The loser would literally rip them from the book and present them to the other player for scribing or whatever purposes he wanted. Was a lot of fun and helped to create a fun rivalry between some pc wizards and a group of npc wizards.
Fixxxer 03-17-04, 10:50 PM	I've noticed over the years that many DMs seem to have some sort of built-in moral dilemma about destroying a wizard's spellbook. Generally, this is due (according to them) to the idea that a wizard is completely useless without his book. To all of you who agree with this train of thought, let me ask you this.......do you have the same hangups about using Sunder to destroy a fighter's sword?
MinusInnocence 03-17-04, 10:53 PM	Well, of course an NPC who didn't already have the spells in the book would think twice before behaving in such a malicious and cruel manner. But I assumed we were talking about someone who was in a position to put the hurt on a PC, and all other things being equal, only had to decide if he was willing to take that step. Also, Friend, just to point something out: according to the DMG, when a "1" is rolled on a Reflex save for half damage, one of your items is randomly checked to see if it is either damaged or destroyed by the spell or effect. I would rule that if the Wizard doesn't have anything more prevalent on the hierarchy of items (I think it starts with primary weapon, then goes to armor, cloak, shield, etc... following the progression of things that would be less and less likely to be out in the open), his backpack/purse/scrolltubes/whatever could have to check for destruction. And a spellbook would probably go up like kindling, if it wasn't magically reinforced (something I can't imagine a wizard with the means to do so, NOT doing). Finally, out of game I agree that it would have to be a pretty severe offense to warrant this sort of "punishment". Though I assumed we were talking about the story itself, not a way for the DM to stick it to the player. simpkin, that setting sounds interesting... it kind of reminds me (god forbid) of the magocracy featured in the Dungeons & Dragons film. I always liked that city, even if the movie failed. EDIT: Fixxxer, that actually reminds me of a funny story... a character in my previous campaign was all about ranged combat, I suspect he was basing his elven fighter off Legolas from LOTR. Anyway, I ruled that because you can't threaten with a ranged weapon, when he was holding his bow he couldn't do anything about the Orc sergeant with the adamantine greataxe and Improved Sunder... his weapon was blown to pieces. The other archer in the party (yes, they were all ranged combatants, I'm surprised and impressed they survived to 7th level) lost his bow to the Shatter spell... gotta hate clerics of Gruumsh. Oh, and no, I didn't feel bad about it. I actually thought it was pretty funny, especially considering they each went out of their way to base their entire characters off their longbows. I'm not a big fan of one trick ponies.
Remnant 03-17-04, 10:57 PM	If the wizard used it to wail on a fire elemental with for some reason, I might be inclinded to destroy it- but I can't imagine even the most chaotic stupid player doing such a thing in a normal game. Destroying a spellbook is clearly an extreme action, in fact, most players above level 1 would probably rather be killed and raised rather than lose their book.
ehrin 03-17-04, 10:58 PM	Destroying a fighters sword would only be equivalent to destroying a spell book IF the fighter could not fight with ANY other weapon, and could not simply pick up another sword and fight. If the fighter had to remake his sword, from scratch, and at great expense, then it would be about the same. Is there any reason that a wizard would carry his ACTUAL, ONE AND ONLY copy of a spellbook with him on an adventure? wouldn't he carry and use a pretty well protected copy, and leave his good one in a safe place somewhere?
MinusInnocence 03-17-04, 11:03 PM	Lack of foresight seems to be the prevailing reason, as far as I've seen. PCs are spectacularly poor planners, especially when it comes to their own survival.
Remnant 03-17-04, 11:07 PM	Hmmm... Unless it is a very special sword, I would have fewer qualms about destroying a sword than a spellbook. My reasoning is that, while a sword may be valued, rare, and even personalized with the character to an extent, a spellbook is more likely to represent the accumulated experience of the wizard, and is thus harder to replace, unless the character had the forethought to make a backup copy. Without a backup, the wizard would need to start anew, ideally scribing all the spells still memorized immediately, and hopefully scribing any scrolls the party can part with. At any rate, the book would certainly lack some of the character of the original book.
MinusInnocence 03-17-04, 11:10 PM	Well, by that rationale, maybe the Wizard should have been more careful. I certainly wouldn't be so heavy handed as to snatch the book no matter how many precautions the PC went to... that's just bad taste. On the other hand, if the Wizard let some schmuck take the book and do god knows what to it, well... he made his non-spellbook-having bed, and now he can sleep in it.
residieu 03-17-04, 11:18 PM	Originally posted by ehrin Is there any reason that a wizard would carry his ACTUAL, ONE AND ONLY copy of a spellbook with him on an adventure? wouldn't he carry and use a pretty well protected copy, and leave his good one in a safe place somewhere? Two reasons I could think of are 1) Copying spellbooks is hellishly expensive (at least at low to mid levels) 2) You have to have somewhere safe to leave the books. I've played lot of characters without any real "home base" that was really a secure place to be storing spellbooks.
Nom 03-17-04, 11:51 PM	A spellbook is a magic treasure, neither more nor less. A DM should feel exactly the same way towards a wizard's spellbook as he would towards any other magic item the players possess. The only quirk is that a certain value of the item (namely 100gp * number of pages used for 'free' spells) is counted as a class feature rather than treasure. Anything beyond that is worth 100gp per spell level (treat cantrips as 1). For those wizards worried about their spellbooks, replacements can be crafted at 15 gp (for the book) plus 1 day per 2 spells and 50 gp per spell level (see PHB 3.5, "Magic", "Arcane Writings", "Replacing and copying spellbooks"). So, for example, a 5th level wizard may have 15 cantrips, 7 1st level spells (3 (std) + 2 (int bonus) + 2 (level 2)), 4 2nd level spells (levels 3 and 4) and 2 third level spells (level 5). This is 36 pages, so is worth 3615 gp, about the same as a +1 sword and +1 suit of armour. Since all the spells are "free", don't count it as wealth. If she'd added two additional 2nd and 1 additional 3rd level spell, then it adds 700gp to the value of the spellbook, and these spells should be considered 'treasure' (since they're in addition to class features). If your wizard is concerned about the sanctity of her spellbook, then she can spend the 1815gp (and 14 days) to make a backup. Otherwise, you should offer her spellbook as much meta-game protection as you'd offer to the fighter's +1 sword and +1 armour. Note, however, that attacking a spellbook is a long-term rather than short-term attack. Sunder a +1 sword and you immediately cripple the fighter. Destroy a spellbook and you only hamper the wizard when she next prepares spells, which probably won't help you in the next few rounds of combat.
MinusInnocence 03-18-04, 12:03 AM	Nom has many excellent points... it's not like destroying or even stealing a Wizard's book is the end of the world. Even if it crumbles to dust right in the middle of combat, the NPC responsible still has to contend with a furious and hellbent Wizard, fully equipped with all the spells, wands, scrolls and other arcana he/she hasn't used yet. I pity the would-be aggressor in that situation.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 03-18-04, 12:47 AM	I use domain wizards from UA, and rather than a +1 to caster level for their domain spells, I treat each domain spell as if they had spell mastery for it. Then I show no mercy if they take their spellbook somewhere dangerous. Monsters aren't going to try to sunder it even as much as they'll sunder other weapons and items (since it's not a short term solution) but water and elemental damage can easily ruin it. The result is that my players keep their spellbooks somewhere safe. They memorize their non-domain spells before setting out on an adventure, and they make scrolls of what they think they'll need a lot (I allow characters to create a certain amount of xp worth of magic per level before actually spending xp on it, so they won't fall behind for simply using a class feature). I think this actually makes wizards less powerful, in spite of the extra spell per day, but more fun and flavorful. I also give sorcerers bloodlines from an article in Dragon 311 that gives them a free spell known at every spell level, and a special feat at level 5, 10, 15, and 20.
Xyplex 03-18-04, 01:00 AM	Used to be, at least in 2nd Edition, that every Magic user had two spellbook sets ... a smaller, less durable, travelling spellbook, and a thicker, heavy duty, main spellbook. The former was like a looseleaf copy of the latter, and the latter I think was assumed to be stored with the local Magic user's guild (which reminds me of a time where an invading Dragonarmy made the mistake of not keeping an eye on the looting ... and someone broke down the wrong door, upsetting the otherwise indifferent Black, Red, and White mages). I really like Nom's breakdown ... in the regard that after a while a spellbook becomes relatively inexpensive for it's real value ... and also puts it in perspective for sundering ... and in any regard, many Wizards are like those highly specialized archers who had their bows sundered ... take away their spellbook and you take away their recuperative power ... an archer should be easily, and relatively cheaply, replace their weapon of choice, so the fallout is less in the end ... My wonder is what kind of effect, if any, would result from the destruction of a spellbook. I mean, it's magical writing, yes, but not inherantly magical ... right? So it's not going to make the fire burn brighter, blast into a fireball, send a collumn of light into the air ... all of which would be cool if there was a nation hell-bent on wiping out Wizards, so that you could see evidence of this going on from quite a distance.
Mock26 03-18-04, 02:00 AM	To paraphrase a wonderful line from Monty Python's Holy Grail, "Burn it! Burn it!" I have never had a problem burning a spell book or two that belonged to the group I was DM-ing. Why should they be off limits? If I were a BBEG and I captured a spell book that belonged to one of my main foes, I would either go through it myself (assuming I were a mage) or have my head mage go through it for any new spells, and then destroy it! Other than killing a mage, I can't think of a better way to put them out of action temporarily. A smart player, though, will have backup spell books stashed away somewhere (at home, at a local mage's guild, in the backpack of another member of the group). The two mages in my group are constantly creating new spell books and every time they visit a new city they join the local mages guild, pay their membership dues about 5 years in advance, and stash a spell book or two in the library! The way I look at it is that if you can capture a mage's spell book in the course of a normal adventure, then do with it as you please. You "beat" the group/player on that one. And, unless it was for a specific reason (such as a plot hook), I wouldn't go out of my way to steal the spell book(s) in the group. It would be unfair to the mage(s) in question. Now, I have no problems with stealing everything from a group, assuming of course my NPC's can pull it off! Remember, though, that just because you can destroy it doesn't mean you have to! I would suggest that you go through any NPC's you have who could somehow manage to acquire a spell book from the group and write a little note on what they would do with the book. Some fighters might simply destroy it because they see it as the source of power for a mage. A thief might sell it for the money. A mage might rummage through it for new spells and sell it off, destroy, keep it, whatever. Don't be afraid to destroy a spell book, just don't go out of your way to do it to be mean or to "punish" a player (punishing a character is another matter all together!). Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john. :b:
Wayward Son 03-18-04, 09:18 AM	I say it depends on the NPC doing the destruction, really. It's a personality thing more than a hard and fast rule in my game. For example, in a character background I wrote the charater's mother was severly injured and captured by orcs (who thought her dead, at the time). While lying there, she sees the orcs dividing the loot from the raid. The leader lifts something, sniffs it, then tosses it absently into the fire next to her. It's her spellbook, and she nearly kills herself trying to move her broken limbs to save it . . . which let the orcs know she was alive and good for more than dinner (and thus, my half-orc wizard came to be born). To the orc, it was just leather and parchment, good only for kindling. To her, it was the sum of her life's work and more valuable than her own safety. I'd figure out what a character would do regarding the spellbook, then do it. So, no, I have no qualms about burning a PC's spellbook if the NPC involved would do so, for whatever reason. If, however, the wizard who captured them was, say, a devout follower of Boccob, the captured spellbook would find a place of safety in his library, even if he had every spell within it. It is more knowledge about magic, and studying how another mage views a known spell can only benefit his research.
pjackson 03-18-04, 10:20 AM	Spell books should not be invulnerable. Wizards hould have a reason to take Spell Mastery. Opponents should rarely try to destroy spell books - it gains them nothing immediately and if they know what a spell books is they will know it is valuable. If a wizard is not taking precautions to protect his spellbook, it might be worth warning the player - wizards asre supposed to be intelligent.
MinusInnocence 03-18-04, 10:24 AM	On the topic of what happens when a spellbook is destroyed... It's a tough call. Spellbooks may not radiate magic when using Detect Magic... but another cantrip, Read Magic, is necessary to decipher their runes. So, yes I would say there is some element of magic in their pages and thus I guess anything could realistically happen. The first time I read R.A. Salvatore's Homeland, I was intrigued by his interpretation of what happens when a wizard's wand snaps. The charges of whichever spell was contained in the wand suddenly trigger all at once and typically, you have a pretty big blast radius. I would rule that if anything were to happen after the destruction of a wizard's book, it would depend largely on the amount and level of the wizard's most potent spells scribed. So if it's a 1st level Wizard's book with five or six first level spells, nothing spectacular happens... maybe a random effect like Prestidigitation for a few moments, then nothing. But if the guy had a few 9th level spells and almost all of the 7th and 8th level lists, a planar rift may be torn or something equally spectacular...
samoosa691 03-18-04, 10:30 AM	We just had an interesting session we stole a necromancers spell book and I (the wizard) copied the spells I could learn. Then we kept the book because i'm running out of page for my book to copy spells in. So we ripped all the necromancy spells out (forbidden school for me) and now I have a spare spell book :) But the general consensus is if it is for revenge (i.e. p.c destroyed spell book) then there would be a purpose in destroying pc's spellbook otherwise it's pointless.
lukelightning 03-18-04, 10:44 AM	Call me a softy, but I would never destroy a PC's spellbook, just as I would be majorly miffed if a DM destroyed my character's spellbook. A wizard without a spellbook is pretty much a smart commoner with a well-trained rat (if the wizard's got a familiar). Then again, I dislike the whole "spellbook" mechanic. When I run a campaign a spellbook is basically a virtual concept; it's a list of spells a wizard can prepare. Wizards use books to research new spells, etc. but don't have to dig out their notebooks every morning. The advantage to this is that the wizard doesn't have this dumb Achilles' heel, and the disadvantage (from a player's perspective) is that a PC wizard generally doesn't get to loot NPC wizards and get loads of spells. I'd put "spells-as-loot" in the form of a wizard's research library, scrolls, etc.
pawnman 03-18-04, 10:55 AM	Actually, we should refer all those "sorcerors are underpowered" folks to this thread. Taking a spellbook really highlights the reason a sorceror doesn't get all the other feats. On a side note, does anyone here impose all the time and GP constraints on spellbooks? Do you actually force the character to spend gold on spellbooks, ink, etc?
trentlanthier 03-18-04, 11:01 AM	I would only do something like this if the wizard was silly enough not to protect it. I make wizards follow the spell rules religously. You have to buy new spell books. On your spell book list you have to have a number beside each spell that represents which book its in. Spellbooks to a wizard are just as important as a magical sword to a fighter. I have no problems destroying a magical sword so I'd have no problems destroying a wizards spell book. But I'd never destroy all his spells books. And a good wizard should have backup books of important spells etc. And by time they are higher level they should have met up with a couiple of wizards who might be able to start them with some new spells to get them going, and of course they have also probably met some rivals who may take this time to exact some revenge as well.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-18-04, 11:03 AM	Using the "Wizards spellbook is no different from <combattants' weapon>" is a horrible comparison. Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook. Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level. Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages. Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. Even at low levels, this could mean weeks, if not months of downtime required to recover from the loss of a spellbook. If you Sunder a Fighter's +3 Weapon, it's simply a matter of pulling out his mundane weapon to fight, then buying a new one once they reach a town. A Wizard is effectively shut down for a long time without his spellbook. People claiming that Spell Mastery should be made more enticing are going about it in a faulty manner. If a Wizard does take this feat, it will more than likely be for spells that help him recover his lost spellbook. If you torch the book, he's left with nothing but Locate Objects, Teleports and Scrys. Unless the PC did something utterly stupid to warrant the eradication of his book, no DM should be so quick to snuff out a characters' usefulness for an indefinately period of time. (What if the Wizard has no money on hand? How will he get more?)
Juca 03-18-04, 11:22 AM	You probably never use Mordekainen Disjunction on your PCs either, do you? Because Mords will do, the vast marjority of the times, the same thing to the fighter and, I believe that it will be much more costly to the fighter to replace all it magic itens than the wizard to arranje another spellbook. In my campaing the Wizard already lost two spellbooks: one tha belonged to another wiz that was defeated, I always described the book as being eaten by fungus and the like. The wiz never care to ever clean the book so, about 3 months later, when he decided to take a look at the book, it was already ruined beyond reading capabilities. The other spellbook was the only spellbook of that wizards at that moment, and it lost it when the party was captured in a raid, the raiders (goblins), sold everything belonging to the players. (Later the players did managed to escape and take back most of theyr itens but the spellbook and anything made of paper/wood was burned to ashes)
kliate 03-18-04, 11:32 AM	Wizard - Spellbook = Commoner + Good Will Save + Scroll/Wand/Staff use If I were to plan on ruining a wizard's spellbook in any way at all, I would at least start hinting at the possibilities (so, where are you keeping your textbook as you sleep tonight?) that something could be wrong. After a few hints, I wouldn't have as much a problem with taking this harsh action - although I would still leave them with a chance to protect their book. A mundane aside... Wizard: Hah! Sorcerors are weak! They don't know half the spells as I have written here... <holds up spellbook> Sorceror: Disintegrate on spellbook... A clever wizard should try to come up with a few ideas to protect this small piece of his soul - be they decoys, backups, seven copies in seven Leomund's Secret Chests that they rotate through on a daily basis... A wizard should protect his spellbook as a Lich his phylactory, with the only difference being that the wizard needs to actually use his book every day.
Findail 03-18-04, 11:41 AM	It seems reasonable to allow players to make plenty of cheap copies, using normal paper and inks. A Wizard wouldn't be able to use such a book to prepare spells directly, but he could use it as a blueprint for a new "proper" spellbook (assume it contains notes such as "use squid ink for this paragraph, and gold leaf for the border..." etc). With this, the Wizard isn't committed to spending large amounts of money on a backup he might never need, but he could recreate his spellbook if he had to, given sufficient money and time.
Kolo 03-18-04, 11:59 AM	Last time I played a wizard as a PC, I had no less than 8 copies of every spell that I knew. First, I kept three travelling books on me at all times, and disguised one of them as a cookbook (to be used in an emergency- had mostly tracking spells for finding the originals.) The other two were divided into combat/utility. Then, every spell I knew was kept in 2 copies of Boccob's Blessed Book, and one more hidden deep underground beneath the stronghold we stayed in to be recalled using various spells. Then I had that elfstone thing from Magic of Faerun that can be used as a spellbook, and had Nystul's undetectable aura cast on it. The last copy was a massive tome with platinum pages and protected from pretty much every effect in existence, be it scrying, fire, acid or whatnot (but that was a late development in that campaign). Why? Because I DM quite a bit, and I know I would have targeted this wizard's spellbook as soon as I could for a cheap plothook had I been DMing. :D In fact, perhaps I can convince the DM for that game to take a seat behind the screen again... I miss playing that halfling lich. Anyway, the moral is; If the PC's are prepared for something like this, do it and see them astound the BBEG. If they haven't prepared... well, bad luck to them then.:angel:
trentlanthier 03-18-04, 12:06 PM	Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher Using the "Wizards spellbook is no different from <combattants' weapon>" is a horrible comparison. ...(SNIP) (What if the Wizard has no money on hand? How will he get more?) Any wizard that only carries 1 spell book, is just like a warrior who only carries his +3 sword. IE if you destroy either they're up the creak. Myself my wizards break up spells among many books so one book if lost or destroyed would not be the end of the world. And I always kept a spare book with the most importnat spells (wish, limited wish, teleport, etc) wherever my tower/study was. On top of that I always kept scrolls as well with various friends, especially the rogue/bards in the party. In 2ed when a dragon breathed on you in my party that meant EVERY ITEM you owned made a save, and I lost more than 1 spell book in my bag of holding. Did it cripple me the first time? No, because I had staves and wands that did most of the spells I would have to make up for memorizing spells. Did it hurt me? Oh holy heck it sure did. Especially before I learned to mix the spell levels in each book so you don't loose say your whole "level 5+" spells in 1 book. There is a reason that there is a thing called a "Travelling" spell book as apposted to the wizards "Normal SPell book" I think that people don't enforce how many pages etc spells take and how many books it actually takes to have a huge spell list of a wizard... they seem to think that EVERY wizard has a book of infinite spells that they can just flip the pages back and forth.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-18-04, 02:12 PM	Any wizard that only carries 1 spell book, is just like a warrior who only carries his +3 sword. A Fighter that carries a backup weapon pays change from his pocket to have it. (Or possibly 2000 gp for a magical weapon) A Wizard that keeps even one backup spellbook is looking to pay 100 gp per level of spell, and potentially months of downtime to scribe it all. (Either that, or the 6750 gp + 500 XP to make a Boccobs book. Expensive still, and doesn't eliminate the time factor) In 2ed when a dragon breathed on you in my party that meant EVERY ITEM you owned made a save, and I lost more than 1 spell book in my bag of holding. Did it cripple me the first time? No, because I had staves and wands that did most of the spells I would have to make up for memorizing spells. Did it hurt me? Oh holy heck it sure did. Especially before I learned to mix the spell levels in each book so you don't loose say your whole "level 5+" spells in 1 book. In 2ed I used to purchase and destroy bows as a Human Paladin, because it was a violation of my code to even consider attacking from range. Yes, I think I will apply this to 3rd Ed. as well. [/sarcasm] (3e and 2e vary too greatly to be compared) No sane Wizard is going to blow his entire cash allowance on multiple spellbooks, nor should anyone think that he should. A backup, with a few key spellbook-retrieving spells might be a good idea, but this leads me to one point: If you lost one spellbook, there's a good chance you lost all of them. Unless of course your spellbook is safely stashed in some town somewhere. In which case it's worthless to you at the moment, and you're still crippled until you can get it. (Not to mention slightly poorer for having made it)
lukelightning 03-18-04, 02:29 PM	I made a lich whose phylactery was his spellbook. His logic was that nobody would think to destroy this incredibly valuable resource (he had a huge selection of spells, many of them unique or very rare). This way he was sure to be reborn near his spellbook so he could regain his spells if he was destroyed (something which many DMs seem to forget about). This phylactery spellbook had a special mechanic; it had a powerful curse that would effect anyone studying it allowing the lich's soul to possess them if he had been destroyed. Of course he also had a jeweled headband with a sinister black gem on it that radiated powerful magic as a false phylactery. When destroyed it released a sophisticated programmed illusion of the lich's soul dispersing and a hefty burst of negative energy (to add a bit more realism to the "ding dong the lich is dead") Originally posted by kliate A wizard should protect his spellbook as a Lich his phylactory, with the only difference being that the wizard needs to actually use his book every day.
trentlanthier 03-18-04, 03:01 PM	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher In 2ed I used to purchase and destroy bows as a Human Paladin, because it was a violation of my code to even consider attacking from range. Yes, I think I will apply this to 3rd Ed. as well. [/sarcasm] (3e and 2e vary too greatly to be compared) Your reference is valid in 2ed, and even 3rd ed if you had that in your Code of Ethics that your personal Paladin Followed. I was simply stating Why I started backing up my spell book (After all it was time consuming in 2ed too, just no xp was attached to it) I never said "Do this because in 2ed this happened" Though sarcasm is noted, but not valid as far as I can see. Since a wizard is completely powerless without his spell books then said wizard would be a COMPLETE moron not to protect his books. To me right now, you are providing arguements WHY a wizard should have alternate books. Yes its time consuming, yes its expensive, yes it makes him weak with out it....Yes it would take months / years to replace his spell library....to me then the best way to beat a wizard is to go for the spell book. Kind of makes your BBEG pretty pathetic...if yoru PC's break in and manage to steal his/her spellbook. And every level he gets 2 spells... no way these are going to fit in 1 book, so he's bound to have more than 1 book anyways. Now him loosing 1 book will hamper him for sure, but the other books should keep him going much like a warrior buying a normal weapon would keep him going. <edited for context and spelling>
KAR 120 C 03-18-04, 03:25 PM	If you're doing something likely to get it burned, then it gets burned. If you don't, then it doesn't. Simple as that. As somebody has already said, the Spellbook is the big important reason that Sorcerers aren't as much worse than Wizards as everybody says. I wouldn't advocate burning a Wizard's spellbook completely at random any more than I would advocate siccing a Disenchanter Beast on the party - it'll just feel like GM spite. On the other hand I *do* think that the vulnerability of spellbooks should be played up - if only to give the Sorcerers a chance to be smug. If you treat spellbooks as indestructible then (a) you knacker suspension of disbelief (so the ship caught fire, the sank, but the spellbook is still fine) and (b) you turn Wizards into sorcerers-but-better
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-18-04, 03:44 PM	I personally don't support the act of making a Wizards spellbook invulnerable either. However, there are a few keys factors I'd really like to get across. While it's all well and good to have a spellbook stolen, (it can certainly be used as an interesting plot hook, one that any Wizard will pursue) it's not such a good idea to actually have the book destroyed. No other class is so dependent on one object, to the point that their powers are near-totally nullified without it. It would not be fun for the player, and it would serve nothing but to cause discontention within the game. Even if the player did get a replacement, he's out thousands of gp, not to mention wasted days he could've used for say, Item Creation. (Assuming the DM allows for downtime -- not doing so would just be adding insult to injury) As for the spellbook being subject to something that would require a stretch of the imagination to protect, (i.e. falling into a pit of lava), that's really the extreme case. Most of the time when this occurs, the player has some idea that the loss of his spellbook is a possibility. (At least, he should) If, due to bad luck or foolishness he somehow ends up in the lava, then he's pretty much out of luck. If say, he goes to sleep one night and a band of thieves comes and steals the party's equipment, who then proceed to destroy the book, well, I can't think of any way to make the Wizard player any more upset. I'd definately feel singled out, to say the least. A Fighter without his weapon is still a Fighter. He can grab a log and bounce back somewhat. A Wizard without his spellbook is, like someone mentioned before me, an intelligent commoner with a rat.
Nom 03-18-04, 06:30 PM	Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher Even at low levels, this could mean weeks, if not months of downtime required to recover from the loss of a spellbook.Then do the obvious thing. Make a copy of all spells as soon as you learn them. You can copy 2 spells per day, for a cost of 50gp / spell level (which is dirt cheap - compare cost of healing potions by level). The only "unfair" aspect is if the DM waits until 15th level to point out the vulnerability in the most effective way possible. As noted, though, spellbooks are not prime targets in combat. However, they are prime targets if you're wanting to cripple a wizard in the larger timescale.
FriendoftheDork 03-18-04, 07:31 PM	well, players SHOULD remember the copy/reinforce their spellbook at first copportinity, but I think a majority doesen't because they don't expect the DM to do such a thing. Yes, rolling 1s on saves could destroy it, but it's not likely, the clothes and stuff would probably go first. But it COULD happen. Today two of the PCs rolled 1s on a lightning bolt and one lost a mw armor, while the other got her intelligent +2 sword damaged, who complained horrbily (although with hardness 15 and 25 hp was barely scratched ;) But in this group we got a Sorc instead that wants to be more of a utility man than an artillery platform and has even taken craft wondrous item even though he won't be able to produce much.
Fixxxer 03-18-04, 08:47 PM	Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher Even at low levels, this could mean weeks, if not months of downtime required to recover from the loss of a spellbook. If you Sunder a Fighter's +3 Weapon, it's simply a matter of pulling out his mundane weapon to fight, then buying a new one once they reach a town. A Wizard is effectively shut down for a long time without his spellbook. So what you're basically saying here is that a fighter can walk into any old town and buy a shiny new +3 longsword, but that same town doesn't have a single used spellbook for sale at all?
Burgundy Lotus 03-18-04, 09:08 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer So what you're basically saying here is that a fighter can walk into any old town and buy a shiny new +3 longsword, but that same town doesn't have a single used spellbook for sale at all? That's an interesting point. I don't think I've ever had new or used spellbooks for sale, though now that you mention it I could see the odd one come on the market every so often.
The_Caitiff 03-18-04, 09:53 PM	Thats why all my wizards have craft engraver. My Spell books are steel sheets carefully engraved and lovingly bound. They weigh in at around 30-40lbs but thats not important. My old DM loved to cripple the wizards for days at a time then run "random" encounters all the way back to town. I wonder why the dungeons were always 3 days journey from town?:smirk:
Dan-STC 03-18-04, 10:45 PM	Someone I know played a wizard who had a spellbook which he stored in a portable pocket dimension of some kind. I forget what exactly he used to get that (it was a specific spell, I believe) but basically, he just yanked it out whenever he needed it, and then kept his hands free elsewhere. The spellbook itself was protected via traps, resistances, protections, and all manner of what-have-you. The only drawback was that he couldn't access it from within antimagic zones, so he got screwed for a little while during a segment of the game where the DM put them through a rather large one. There was also another game where I played a wizard and had my spellbook stolen and destroyed. I was kinda screwed, right up until I found a large cache of scrolls (more like a library) and figuratively went to town.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-19-04, 11:29 AM	Originally posted by Fixxxer So what you're basically saying here is that a fighter can walk into any old town and buy a shiny new +3 longsword, but that same town doesn't have a single used spellbook for sale at all? Oh I'm sure there are spellbooks for sale. Possibly even extensive ones. However, what are the odds of finding one that was near identical to yours? It's 10000 GP for a full spellbook, and it's likely to have spells you don't want, as well as not have certain spells you do want. And this becomes more difficult if your book happened to be a Boccobs book. Perhaps someone who idolized you had such a book with exactly the same spells you did? To a Fighter, the Flaming Longsword + 2 he just bought is identical to the one that was sundered in his last fight. :)
Quithion 03-19-04, 12:37 PM	I , personally, think that a wizard who does not protect his spell book or take spell mastery is asking for you to hit him where it hurts. I would consider it like wearing white robes with a bullseyes all over it. BBEG's are intelligent and if a wizard has been a major key in the fact a bbeg will know/ find out / how to hurt the player. This goes for every player not just the wizard. A fighter who relies on a powerful item to get through the fights will find himself lacking in the antimagic cone of a beholder. This is why the spell mastery feat, wands, potions, elixers, and scrolls become a vital part of the repitoire of the wizards class. A poorly planned wizard is one sided his spells. An intelligent player of a wizard realys of vials of acid, other items, his sheer intelligence. Is this a boon to a sorcerer ? You bet. In fact if I were going agianst another wizard or any opponent I would hit them where they are weak. Evil ? No. its survival.
Wolfwood2 03-19-04, 01:23 PM	Anybody ever destroy a wizard's spellbook and had the player just give up on the character in response? "So the book is gone and there's no way for Zefig the Mighty to get his spells back without finding scrolls or spellbooks of each one and rescribing them from scratch? Uh, burdened by the despair of being less than a full wizard, Zefig takes his own life. Here's the character sheet. Yes, I know I'll have to start my new character two levels below the lowest level member of the party. I still think I'm better off."
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-19-04, 01:26 PM	BBEG's are intelligent and if a wizard has been a major key in the fact a bbeg will know/ find out / how to hurt the player. This goes for every player not just the wizard. A fighter who relies on a powerful item to get through the fights will find himself lacking in the antimagic cone of a beholder. True, a BBEG will seek to cripple his opponents as best he can. It just so happens that the Wizard has a signed contract with the word "Soul" at the top of it, ready for the taking. It's considerably easier to nab a protected spellbook than to sunder a well-trained Fighters' sword. Incidentally, I think you would have to agree with me that a Wizard stuck in any anti-magic area is far more restricted than any Fighter. This is why the spell mastery feat, wands, potions, elixers, and scrolls become a vital part of the repitoire of the wizards class. A poorly planned wizard is one sided his spells. An intelligent player of a wizard realys of vials of acid, other items, his sheer intelligence. Spell Mastery, like I mentioned before, is more than likely used for spellbook-retrieval. No sane Wizard who's lost his book says to himself "Well, there goes my entire spell collection. Guess I'll just spend the next few adventures using my 3+ Int spells only, I think I'll be fine." Vials of acid do little damage for their cost, and require an attack roll (albeit slightly easier one). A Wizard isn't good at making attack rolls. Not without his True Strike, which he conveniently doesn't have. At best the Wizard has his few scrolls. (He's definately not scribing anymore) Getting more scrolls comes down to the same thing: wasting money. Why buy more scrolls when you can just buy a new book? As for Intelligence, while certainly not a useless stat, it isn't a hammer like Strength is. You can't kill an Orc with just your Intelligence. You could devise some clever trap that would kill him, but that can be said for just about any PC and be within his rights. (Who's to say a 10 Int PC can't come up with a clever solution?) A spellbook isn't particularly easy to protect if your DM is set to steal/destroy/confiscate it. The various protective spells can be bypassed, and some just ignored. (We're burning it, not reading it, remember?) A DM can destroy a Wizards' spellbook. We all know he can. What I'm saying is that he shouldn't. Wizards aren't the weakest class by a longshot, but take away his book and you have one near-useless character, and one frustrated and bored player.
Wayward Son 03-19-04, 02:14 PM	I don't know, I might like the challenge of overcoming such a setback. Of course, I'm one of those masochistic players who writes large and extensive organizations into my background as adversaries, too. :D But, other than the metagame depression of the player knowing he has the class with the least HD per level and just lost the largest class feature that would offset the lack of HP, let's look at what the wizard has left. 1. Any spells still memorized. Here the wizard has to make some painful choices, since every spell he casts is one more he can't re-scribe into a new book. Most will prefer to play it safe and preserve as many spells as possible. 2. Scrolls. Again, a scoll used is another spell that won't make it into the new book (unless he has multiple scrolls of the same spell). Conservation is king, yet again. 3. Wands and/or staffs. Ahhh, here's the wizard's saving grace when the spellbook goes. With the right wands or staffs, the wizard can still be a powerhouse in a fight, just not as versitile as before (kind of like a sorcerer). Yes, they will eventually run out of charges, but they will be charges well-spent if they allow the wizard to earn enough to rebuild his spellbook. 4. Familiar. Other than the bonuses to stats or skills, many familiars are excellent scouts who can keep the wizard alert to danger. Having some warning can help the wizard avoid needless or difficult fights until he's back to full strength. 5. Arcane knowlegde. If all else fails, the wizard can set himself up as a sage for hire, trading his knowledge for money or spells to rebuild his repetoire. This can even lead to interesting side-quests where the wizard travels to distant lands to learn certain, obscure information. So, a wizard without a spellbook is far from useless. On the contrary, it can merely be a small inconvenience along his journey, if played well. I'd suggest, as a DM, you prepare for several alternatives for the wizard when you destroy his spellbook. You never know which way he'll jump.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-19-04, 03:13 PM	So, a wizard without a spellbook is far from useless. On the contrary, it can merely be a small inconvenience along his journey, if played well. I'd suggest, as a DM, you prepare for several alternatives for the wizard when you destroy his spellbook. You never know which way he'll jump. You make some good points, to which I'll submit that a spellbook-less Wizard isn't completely useless. However, knowing that the Red Dragon is going to breathe on you, or actually casting that Protection from Energy is too big a difference for me to classify it as a "small inconvenience". :) Point is though, unless some unfortunate happenstance occured, the DM should never actively seek out to destroy a Wizards' spellbook. It's simply easier to steal it, with less repercutions from the PC and player. A stolen book makes the PC mad. A burnt book makes the player mad. If you're willing to risk potential disruption at the table, then by all means do it. But please, at least warn your PC's ahead of time that you have no qualms with using their spellbooks as a source of warmth. :D
CannonFodder2244 03-19-04, 06:24 PM	Another thing to consider is that wizards NEED downtime to deal with most difficulties, from needing a full eight hours of sleep (heh... my wizard got more sleep fighting orcs than I the player got as a college student - definition of irony) to needing the time and resources and lack of disturbance to scribe scrolls to, in this extreme example, the time and money to make a new spellbook. If you, as a DM, are willing to give the time in-game to allow the wizard deal with the stuff you're throwing at them, then I'd say that it wouldn't be immensely unfair to make the spellbook fair game. On the other hand... If you're the sort of DM who gives out coppers with the rarity of major treasure, keeps the players running at all times, has them fighting at every turn, never allowing them time to rest and re-equip, giving them only five to seven hours of sleep per night, counts "downtime" as "the number of rounds you were at 0 or negative hitpoints due to the ogre smacking you for megadamage"... then burning that spellbook is really, really not cool. You've basically denied them their strengths and harped on their weaknesses. Too much of that, and you alienate the player. Too much alienation, and you won't have someone to abuse anymore. As a DM, I have no problem with taking stuff away from my players... but I always give them multiple opportunities to get what they lost back or grow in power. The stick is meant for holding the carrot, not for bashing the player's brain in.
Fanatic-Templar 03-19-04, 09:29 PM	If used sparingly, burning the wizard's spellbook can be interesting. For example, I run a low-magic campaign. The BBEG has captured the PCs and seen the wizard cast spells. " BBEG- Tell me, how did you destroy my warriors, warlock ? Wizard- Go to the Abyss, you butt-faced koboldspawn. BBEG- I'm pretty sure you used this... The evil baron holds up a thick tome covered in black leather and set with silver runes, bound in adamantine. The wizard's jaw clenches and he tenses. BBEG- The man who found this tried to open it, and he was turned to stone. Tell me how it works. The wizard remains obstinately silent. BBEG - Don't worry, I have all the time in the world. Thirst and hunger will deal with you. And with your companions. The dark lord walks to the dying fire and pokes at the ashes. BBEG - There must be something in here that can light a fire, no ? How about this ? Fireball ? That should work fine. The fiend tears off the page and crumples it into a ball before throwing it into the hearth. The paper flares up in no time. The baron grins and throws the spellbook on the table as he walks out of the room, the mage staring at him with a gaze that would have knocked a dragon dead." This scenario has interesting opportunities - You are feeding hatred and lust for vengeance into the PC and in the same time you are removing some selected spells that could harm your campaign ( or remove home-made spells you realized were too powerful ), yet you are not crippling the wizard completely ( which seriously irritates players ). On a plus side, the BBEG left the spellbook in the room to mock the PC, but if he gets freed, he can reclaim it immediately.
Nom 03-20-04, 12:34 AM	Cannon Fodder's comments on downtime noted... That said, the first instinct of a wiz who loses his book should be to not cast any more spells until he's got the time to copy them from memory or scrolls into the book. It's really not that expensive. The 24 hours per spell is much more restrictive. Side comment: has anyone stopped to think how much a starting wizard's spellbook is worth? 19 cantrips + (say) 5-6 level 1 spells = 25 pages = 2500 gp! Personally, I find the free wizard spells rules very generous, especially at 1st level.
Fixxxer 03-20-04, 01:02 AM	Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher Oh I'm sure there are spellbooks for sale. Possibly even extensive ones. However, what are the odds of finding one that was near identical to yours? It's 10000 GP for a full spellbook, and it's likely to have spells you don't want, as well as not have certain spells you do want. Perhaps, but a +3 weapon is at least 18,300. You could almost get two entirely full spellbooks for that price. In addition, I understand the point you're trying to make, but purchasing even a low-level spellbook would make a wizard very functional again. What wizard doesn't have Magic Missile in his book? Identify? Fireball? Assuming that the wizard has the same chance of finding even a low-level spellbook as a fighter does of finding a magical sword, it seems that losing a spellbook is, at most, an inconvenient setback for a wizard. A stolen book makes the PC mad. A burnt book makes the player mad. While that may be so, I'm still not convinced that destroying a spellbook is any worse or any less fair that sundering a weapon. The fighter depends on his weapon in much the same way a wizard depends on his spellbook. True, if you destroy the weapon, a good fighter will have a lesser (and it really is lesser, isn't it? I mean, why else was the fighter using the other weapon instead of this one?) weapon as a backup, but any wizard worth his salt will have a veritable tome of scrolls to fall back on (possibly even a lesser spellbook) until he can get his spellbook situation fixed. I just don't see that much of a difference in the two situations. If you're willing to risk potential disruption at the table, then by all means do it. But please, at least warn your PC's ahead of time that you have no qualms with using their spellbooks as a source of warmth. This is very good advice. I give every player "the speech" before we begin playing. "The speech" says, among many other things, that magical weapons, items, familiars, spellbooks, followers, etc are not in any way immune to harm and barring in-game protections, are not any less likely to get harmed due to their status as "my weapon" or "my spellbook" or "my animal companion." It also states that M.K.'s Disjunction is a viable tactic, both for PCs and NPCs and that if an NPC would use the spell, he will. The PCs are not immune to the spell's effects because "we're the heroes, man!" and I'm not going to hold back on an NPC's actions because "they're the heroes, man!" That's an interesting point. I don't think I've ever had new or used spellbooks for sale, though now that you mention it I could see the odd one come on the market every so often. I figure that spellbooks taken from hoards or off of dead wizards get sold just the same as swords taken from hoards or off of dead warriors. In addition, I figure that the Mage's Guild (should there be a guildhall in the area) would have plenty of spellbooks for sale (purchased books, member's old apprentice books, etc). Thats why all my wizards have craft engraver. My Spell books are steel sheets carefully engraved and lovingly bound. Rust Monsters and/or a metal version of the druid's Warp Wood spell must be a real pain in the butt for these wizards, eh? :smirk: Fanatic-Templar, I think I'd like to be in one of your games. :D
MinusInnocence 03-20-04, 04:14 AM	Agreed... I would like to play under Fanatic, too. :) It sounds like he's on the right track. It's very sound advice that boundaries OOC must be discussed with the players before the game begins. My own players, for example, know that I play hardball; there is no messing around. They're gonna get everything from me that I expect them to give to me, and that includes fighting for their very lives in the campaign world. Heroism is a difficult standard, to be sure, and not because of the "Woe is me, I will never have a normal life" melodrama that people like Superman deal with. It's because Orcs with bastard swords hate you and want to eat your liver. Maybe a player would be offended if he felt he was being singled out by my attack on his spellbook... but if he thought that, it would be unfortunate since he would simply be mistaken. I don't play favorites, and if the players don't keep their wits about them, the characters will be butchered. I've had more than my fair share of TPKs, and all of them deeply upset me. Not because I felt sorry for killing the characters... but because I "lost", too, on those days. Still, the main thing that bothered me about it was the players failed to meet my expectations - the expectations I had outlined at the beginning of the game. So, in your own games with your own groups, if it is common understanding that NPCs will behave logically and seek every advantage over their opponents (this includes the "No Holds Barred" attitude of hitting Wizards where it hurts - their lifeline, the spellbook), then by all means you must do so. Not only to maintain consistency and believability, but because you owe it to the players to give them the best experience within your power.
samoosa691 03-20-04, 12:47 PM	hey all, i'm just curious what this bocobs blessed book is? (sorry for being dense) a page reference in the right book will be nice thanks.., looking to backup my own spell book...:smirk: paranoia is key!
The Swedish Viking 03-20-04, 12:54 PM	The thing with Spellbooks (they have 100 pages), is that they are small and don´t hold that many spells. A Spellbook, after all, holds 50 (2 pages/spell) level 1 spells, 25 (4 pages/spell) level 2 spells, 16,5 (6 pages/spell) level 3 spells, and so on. Thus, a wizard of higher levels ought to have a bundle of spellbooks containing many different spells, and thus is not entirely crippled if one spellbook is lost. (Mind you, he has to walk about with a veritable library!) Have i miscalculated somewhere, please correct me. (All this is taken from the PHB)
FriendoftheDork 03-20-04, 01:21 PM	Originally posted by samoosa691 hey all, i'm just curious what this bocobs blessed book is? (sorry for being dense) a page reference in the right book will be nice thanks.., looking to backup my own spell book...:smirk: paranoia is key! Boccob's Blessed Book (could probably be called Azuth's Blessed Book in FR) is a magic item all wizards should want. It allows far more spells in a single spellbook, and unless I'm mistaken, cheaper scribing of spells into the spellbook. Check out the DMG.
Sildatorak 03-20-04, 02:15 PM	I actually apply a 2e rules regarding spellbooks because I like them better. Basically I ignore the rules about preparing spells from another's book if she has already learned the spell. Spells known are just that, the wizard knows them. Given time and appropriate materials (100 gp/page worth) she can scribe down a spell even if she doesn't have it memorized at that instant. This might seem to make mastery useless, but I'm not afraid to capture a wizard's spellbook, have it destroyed if she falls in lava, have thieves hired to break in and steal it, etc. Basically by making it not completely handicapping to lose it, I've destroyed my fear of a player getting royally p*ed off at having it destroyed.
samoosa691 03-20-04, 03:50 PM	Originally posted by FriendoftheDork Boccob's Blessed Book (could probably be called Azuth's Blessed Book in FR) is a magic item all wizards should want. It allows far more spells in a single spellbook, and unless I'm mistaken, cheaper scribing of spells into the spellbook. Check out the DMG. Thanks I found it :)
residieu 03-20-04, 06:32 PM	Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher It's 10000 GP for a full spellbook, and it's likely to have spells you don't want, as well as not have certain spells you do want. Plus, once you've spent 10000 gp on that spellbook you have to pay to make a copy from it in your own hand. Or make your spellcraft check every time you want to prepare a spell.
wdarkk 03-20-04, 09:34 PM	Actually, Magic of Faerun had rules for mastering a foreign notation and making a captured spellbook your own. 25+highest spell level. That means that a DC 34 spellcraft check converts anyone's spellbook into your spellbook if you use those rules. I myself like this idea, although I could see upping the DC slightly (perhaps doubling the increase for highest spell level, making the maximum DC 43).