Post/Author/DateTime	Post
His Majesty 02-20-04, 10:56 AM	Warning: If you are familiar with the names Tiliard, Balard, Coyip, and Raid and live in Jerusalem, you are probably one of my players. Do not read this thread. - éîá"í Long ago, my group obtained a quite valuable item (golden plate inlaid with gems) from a hostile group of halflings in the middle of a forest. These halflings were the remnants of a group of thieves who managed to steal gems and jewels from the local Duke (the rest of the thieves were slaughtered by a very angry dryad. She took the rest of the gems, too). The Duke hired two thief-catchers (Runethane level 3 [rune-based spellcaster] and Unfettered level 2 [equivalent of a rogue]) to catch them. One of them, who has spellcasting abilities, located the objects. When he cast the spells, the group was staying in the same city, and the rest of the objects were in the south, in the dryad’s house. The group headed northwards on the next day, and the thief-catchers followed them, because they were heading for the border and they would soon be out of their reach. The thief-catchers caught the group very close to the border, and thanks to very effective tactics subdued them all, bound them and brought them to the prison in a nearby village. They are convinced that they are the thieves. Ironically, the group was set on a mission for the government, transporting potions to another country. The thief-catchers are now sure that they killed the original people who transported the potion and were trying to impersonate them. I want to give the group a chance to run away, as getting hanged (for murdering the people who transported the potions) or losing your right hand (for stealing) is pretty boring and annoying. Please help me with ideas of how the characters can escape. I use the rules of Monte Cook’s Arcana Unearthed. My group consists of a level 1 Magister (equivalent of a wizard), a level 1 Wolf-Totem Warrior (equivalent of a ranger) a level 2 Wolverine-Totem Warrior, and a level 2 Oathsworn (equivalent of a monk). I have two ideas: 1. A murderer in a nearby cell is going to escape. He asks the group to help him (this option will test the group’s values – team with a murderer or stay in prison?). 2. Spellcasters are rare in my world, so someone might be willing to help the magister to escape in return for his services. The magister can then try to help the other from the outside.
His Majesty 02-21-04, 07:04 AM	Suggestions? Questions? Something?
Tezcatlipoca 02-21-04, 07:24 AM	You could hold a trial, in which they are deemed to be innocent of the theft (i.e. their story is believed). You could also throw out the case of murder, as there are no bodies and indeed no evidence.
His Majesty 02-21-04, 08:25 AM	Actually, there is evidence. They had a stolen object in their backpacks, and as for the murder... The leader of the group had al letter that stated that he should be given money once the potions are delivered to their destination. The wax seal is broken, (another guy who didn't believe them) however, and some of the potions are missing. The judge might rule in their favor, but if he believes that they are theives.. I doubt that anybody will believe anything they say.
Mister Mayhem 02-21-04, 09:03 AM	You can always have them convicted, but then there "just happens" to be an exceedingly dangerous job that the court needs doing that their skills would make them ideal for. (Or they are sentenced to slavery and bought by somebody with such a job) Slap on a Geas (or find some other way of making them keep faith, likea 30-day poison that only the court has the antidote for) and send them out to do the dirty work. During this "suicide mission", they also happen to find evidence that exonourates them, or, as they complete the mission, they find an alternative way to free themselves and so don't need to return to the court/owner.
Nagol 02-21-04, 12:00 PM	Why don't the players get a spell for the clergy? Several different spells come to mind depending on the level of the clerics. Detect Lie or Zone of Truth "Are you the authorised carriers of the potions? Yes Did you steal these items? No. Commune Are they thieves? No. Are they on a mission for the crown? Yes.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-21-04, 12:10 PM	Courts are not going to waste spells like that on someone who they are reasonably sure is guilty. In my campaign, most courts ignore evidence obtained through magic, since it is so easy to tamper it.
PenderGrass 02-21-04, 06:45 PM	Completely waaaaaaaay off subject.... but if this is true: Jerusalem then I would just like to say - "cool" I think that it is so great that D&D spans all the oceans and lands in our own world. Awesome.
Ivanhoe 02-23-04, 03:16 AM	sell em/give as present as gladiators to be killed in some dukes arena (dune style) the guard is a mmm... guy who loves guys... this kind of thing can make easier to find your way out... maybe he got his guard down while attempting to touch one of the guys, maybe he just falls in love with your higher charisma guy... maybe his sister saw one of the adventurers and steals the key from brother to free the guy that stole her heart (she might even believe PCs are guilty but dont care at all... maybe a huge momentum is happening... a civilian protest, something like that... thinking of imprissonment of someone dear to the poppulace and then they harrassing the guards to "free the good people, cozz the state only guards on prison good people bad to the state interest" ... as the french revolution claim maybe a powerfull guy who knows em and knows that they have nothing to do with tha items is interested on their services or something like that, then he manages to release them, by force or by trickery, claiming a propper payment from the PCs... a dragon comes by burning all roof on fire (a not pretty smart deux - ex - machina)... maybe a meteor happens to strike the place where they are guarded making a pathway out... godsend? just maybe... deux-ex-machina stuff makes you wander about its true nature... is it REALLY just coincidence? is a lack of will from the DM?... maybe it is a hook and needs to be investigated deeper? anyway... it always comes to be a hook since they are doing research because of it... and i am starting to get sleepy... mmm... surely: the guard knows you from sometime ago... "you were there when my baby was born... how did you ended up here?? you are not as bad..."... few checks and cheapily earnt an ally... something slows judgement... they dont know what -may be some guy who has information about another possible explanation for the missing stuff (like the real story) -idem as before but his story is as real as he stays drunk, he sobbers and retracts... judging goes on -a war or big state succes appears to atract the atention of power dealers on the area, forgetting momentaneously of adventurers... accordingly with tha 30 days poison but their mission is to bring back the artifacts, and proof of their innocence... if havent they might anyway be sold as slaves or being applied a heavy pain... i ll stop there... could keep on all morning...
DeWayne 02-23-04, 03:53 AM	As I see it you've only got a few options: (1) They escape (2) They're acquited (3) They're convicted but the court decides to do something other than hang them (4) Roll up new characters (5) Run a game with undead characters (ghost of a Magister, a Wolf-Totem Warrior, a Wolverine-Totem Warrior, and an Oathsworn). Maybe it's just me, but the more I think about option 5, the more fun it sounds. Some questions to think about: How fair are the trials in this duchy? How likely are they to be able to prove their innocence? How 'escape resistant' is the prison? I recently had to do some research into this because one of my players got foolish & ended up in prison. I wrote down how I figured the prison would be run and can post it if you'd like. Let me know. Do they have anyone on the outside who could help? Like maybe the guy who sent them to deliver the potions? Do they have a patron who could (or would) pull strings for them? Is there any chance that if they're convicted that they can get some alternative form of punishment? Like slavery or banishment? Starting a slave revolt might be fun, and banishment is nothing to player characters - with some it's a matter of pride how many places they aren't allowed to go back to.
His Majesty 02-24-04, 02:37 AM	Replying to PenderGrass: Yes. I do live in Jerusalem. I wouldn't lie about something like that.. or would I? :smirk: Replying to Ivanhoe: I like the civil protest idea - it fits in well with the environment. And the gaurd might know one of them - I'll think about that. I won't use a deux-ex-machina if I can avoid it. Its too often bad DMing. :nonono: There's nobody outside to help them. They have friends, but they're stuck in the edge of civilization, in the middle of the montains, in a small village. Replying to DeWayne: Trials are quite fair. One judge (usually), rules according to national laws and common sense. Proving innocence is complicated. See my previous post. Since its only a small village, I was thinking that the prison is a small stone house. They probably have a chace of escape, but at least one of the guards is 4th-6th level, and there are about 4 of them. Without help it'll be very complicated. But I'm intrigued - tell me how you designed yur prison. About outside help - see above. Alternative punishments might be community services or a short time in the army. But that's not an option if the judge believes that their murderers. Maybe if he thinks that they're theives and want to atone for their crimes... Thanks to everyone,
His Majesty 02-29-04, 10:32 AM	:bump: It's so hard to stay up in this forum.. with so much traffic, no one notices you unless you get replies constantly.
Ilanthe 02-29-04, 06:18 PM	I'm sure your players are busy thinking of a way out too. Perhaps the trial is postponed until the thief catchers recover all of the stolen items and capture the remaining thieves. They already know that more of the stolen items are being kept elsewhere, and will surely investigate this. At this point the dryad will be able to corroborate the party's story about the halfling theives. If asked she might take the thief catchers to view the bodies of those she disposed of. Once it's realised the party aren't thieves, that should throw doubt on the murderers story, which is nothing more than a flight of someone's imagination. Either that or... the dryad will be dragged to the prison assumed to be their accomplice (though capturing her might prove a problem). This would present her with a huge problem (taken more than 300 yds from her tree she will become ill and die.) Come to think of it, this just might give the party another problem to solve - how the help the dryad as well as prove thier own innocence. Although its possible the dryad could charm the local judge into believing them all innocent :D
DeWayne 03-01-04, 12:26 AM	Originally posted by His Majesty Since its only a small village, I was thinking that the prison is a small stone house. They probably have a chace of escape, but at least one of the guards is 4th-6th level, and there are about 4 of them. Without help it'll be very complicated. But I'm intrigued - tell me how you designed yur prison. First let me say that a lot of this is based on historical prison systems from around the world. Next let me say that this place was never designed to be pleasant. Here are the notes I took the the game - edited to get past the autocensor: D&D Prison system Purpose: The purpose of the prison are twofold. The first purpose is to keep the prisoners from escaping until such time as a judge can hear their case and determine what, if any, punishment should be inflicted on them. The second purpose is to keep the prisoners from escaping between the time the punishment is determined and when it is carried out. The prison is not, in and of itself, considered "punishment." Processing: When any prisoner is brought into the prison they are stripped. Any prisoner who resist being stripped is beaten and then stripped. Prisoners are then searched (including body cavity search). Any prisoner who resist being searched is beaten and then searched. Prisoners are then thrown into a cell. Any prisoner who is so stupid as to continue to resist is beaten some more and then thrown into a cell. Movement: If it becomes necessary to transport a prisoner, they are given a short tunic and ordered to put it on. Prisoners are ordered to kneel with their back to the cell door, cross their ankles and place their hands behind their backs. Prisoners who do not obey are sleep-spelled. Prisoner's wrist & elbows are tied behind their backs - this is done through the bars on the door. Cell door is opened, guard's foot is placed between prisoner's feet. Ankles are tied to "family jewels" (allows 8-10 inch steps, but not running, fighting stance or - Gods help them - kicking). Wrist are tied to "family jewels". Rope is placed around neck & tied to arms. Prisoner stands and walks (carefully) to wagon. A long rod is slid through an eyelet, between a prisoner's legs and the cord going up (it hangs down in the seated position), through another eyelet, between another prisoner's legs & rope, through another eyelet, etc. and locked in place. This allows loading & unloading with only one prisoner not attached to the wagon at a time. Facility: Cells are approximately 10' x 10' with floor, ceiling, side & rear walls made of brick and front wall (including door) made of bars. The floor includes an opening (approximately 3-4" x 5-6") for waste disposal. Cells are grouped into cell blocks. A different key is required to open each cell within a cell block. Entering or leaving a cell block requires going through an 'air lock' type room (2 doors, only one of which can be open at a time). Control of these doors is by people outside the cell block. There are murder holes above all cells, common areas in cell blocks, and airlocks. Procedures: Guards entering a cell block carries only the key to the cell he is doing something with. Two guards are used to move each prisoner. Guards do not carry weapons around prisoners. "Dead" prisoners have their throats cut before being removed from the prison. General info: Any clothing, equipment, etc. the prisoner had becomes the property of the guards on duty, is sold and the income is split between them. Prisoners are kept naked in the cells. The prison is not responsible for food, health care, etc. for prisoners. Prisoners do not have legal rights. A guards main function is to ensure that prisoners do not escape. It is not their function to care for or see to the well being of the prisoners. Guards, as a general rule, are discouraged from interacting with prisoners except as required to give them necessary orders. Abuse of prisoners (physical, sexual, etc.) by guards and other staff members is common place. It was a big shock to a player when he found out (1) that escaping was going to be a little more complex than saying 'I want to roll an escape artist check, (2) without someone on the outside to pay for his food he was going to get real hungry, and (3) when I told him he didn't have any of his equipment, I meant it.
Ivanhoe 03-01-04, 05:05 AM	arent you being a bit to harsh on them dewayne?
Grimbones 03-01-04, 01:59 PM	Originally posted by Ivanhoe arent you being a bit to harsh on them dewayne? True, but if you escape from that prison then you know you are a rockstar. Should probably get some tatoo or something to celebrate.
Phist 03-01-04, 09:16 PM	When any prisoner is brought into the prison they are stripped. Any prisoner who resist being stripped is beaten and then stripped. I'm just curious; how do they strip you if they can't do anything but lie on the floor and bleed? What's to stop a sorcerer from Knocking out or blasting the guards with Fireballs? And whats to stop a druid from walking through the bars as a small or tiny creature, or using Rusting Grasp on the bars or Meld into Stone pretty much anywhere? Or how will being naked stop a monk from kicking and puching the guards to death? I am in a campaign that started with our characters (two half elf career hit men, a human treasure hunter that stole from the crown, an evlish mass-muderer, a scientist that blew up half a town, and a human that wont even tell us what he did) being accidently transfered to a minimum security prison, where the fighter tore the bars off his cell door and we beat the guards to a pulp with them. I also had a lockpick that I hid somewhere the guards didn't looks (it was sewn into my skin, an adventurer has enough scars that that one was overlooked
DeWayne 03-02-04, 02:48 AM	Originally posted by Phist What's to stop a sorcerer from Knocking out or blasting the guards with Fireballs? And whats to stop a druid from walking through the bars as a small or tiny creature, or using Rusting Grasp on the bars or Meld into Stone pretty much anywhere? Or how will being naked stop a monk from kicking and puching the guards to death? Good input. I'll have to toughen the place up in case anyone else gets it into their heads to get arrested. Maybe I'll add some kind of continous 'dispel magic' type effect. The system (as is) was based VERY heavily on real world historical prison systems. Obviously, none of these things came into play in the real world. I guess that's a weakness in trying to make things 'realistic & believable.' Originally posted by Ivanhoe arent you being a bit to harsh on them dewayne? No. It's only been in the last few decades that prisons were supposed to be comfortable. And, obviously, the prison shouldn't be easy to escape from. Actually, I could have made it a lot worse if I'd designed the thing around defeating PCs, but as DM I felt that would be unfair. The NPCs that designed, built, and run the prison don't know the PCs or their abilities so they wouldn't necessarily be ready for them. This is why I designed it around historic systems - I felt it would be fair to assume that whatever we humans had come up with in the past, my NPCs would be smart enough to come up with as well. But I will be adding some 'anti-fantasy-stuff' security measures in the near future. Thanks got the input. :)
Naeron 03-02-04, 06:58 AM	A number of things. Firstly were the stolem items actually within range of Locate Object (520ft for a 3rd level caster), I'd doubt the party would be in range and the Dryads home certainly wouldn't be. Secondly you are playing the thief catchers wrongly. The party aquired the stolen items "long ago", thieves who steal valuable objects in a D&D world will always fence or modify the items as soon as possible. Therefore the Thief Catchers would be more likely to assume that the party have bought the goods rather than being the original thieves. Gather information would be much more likely to be used than Locate Object and that would probably indicate that the party had no reputation as thieves. The reason for this is the very spell you used. Locate Object states "Attempting to find a certain item requires a specific and accurate mental image; if the image is not close enough to the actual object...". So if the thieves stole a diamond necklace then stripping the diamonds off the necklace and putting them in a brooch means that Locate Object will not work because the item that is visualised no longer exists. Selling the item's to a fence (who will probably have them altered) gives the thieves a cut out against magical tracking as the fence probably has a lead lined chest. So if a long period has passed then no professional thief catcher is likely to assume that the person they find with the item is definitely the thief because the item will almost certainly have been resold if the theft was for monetary reasons (Items stolen for religious or political reasons differ whoever). Thieves just don't keep stolen items any longer than it takes to flog them off, its just too dangerous. If the party say they are on a mission for the king then no judge of the same kingdom is going to interfere with that group any longer than the minimum necessary to confirm their identity, and they will take measures to confirm that identity. If the judge convicts the PC's wrongly then the king's mission fails and the judge would be in big trouble, if the PC's are guilty of killing the originals then actually confirming this and handing them over to the king's justice gets the judge some Kudos. If the party have any sort of alibi for the time of the original theft then as they may be on a mission for the government more care would be taken to ensure a scrupulously fair investigation. The authorities involved would certainly hold the characters but would send a message to the relevant authorities - with descriptions and ask for the higher authorities to clear the matter up. After all if one single person present when the mission was handed out (and they don't have to be that important, just a guard who can remember the faces) comes down to see the party then the matter can be cleared up with no risk to the judge. If you want to make good your mistakes then have the party freed. Have what is actually happening changed as below. 1) The thief-catchers do believe that the party are being truthful (because they use Sense Motive) and realise that their story must be checked out. However the suspicion that they may have killed the people working for the government allows them to be held anyway so the local judge agrees to place them under investigation for both the theft and murder charges. This is done so that if the PCs are not the thieves the real ones may hear about the PCs arrest (news would be spread by the thief catchers) so the real culprits would be not on their guard. If the PCs are the thieves the news might bring out some hard evidence of guilt. 2) The thief catchers check out the encounter with the halflings story and it pans out when they find the bodies, using gather information around the Dukes home places the halflings there but probably not the party. Investigations then lead the catchers to the Dryads house and after some careful negotiations and appropriate gifts the Dryad tells the truth about the halfling thieves in return for the Duke renouncing his rights to some or all of the gems the Dryad has. Dryads being good means they will be fairly open to reasonable approaches from local authorities especially when they will come to no harm. So the PC's are cleared but may have to lose the item as the local laws probably say it remains the property of the Duke. 3) The judge contacts the authorities in the city who send out someone who will recognise the lawful carriers of the potions. The party are identified as being the ones assigned to the mission so murder charges are dropped. They may however face some penalties for opening the letter or losing some of the potions. End result - The party spends some time banged up and may get fined, but as they actually are innocent of theft and murder they will not be punished. This is definitely the right approach as establishing their innocence should be ridiculously easy to do and the involvement of a goverment mission means any fair judeg would be very careful not to risk making a mistake and ruining a mission sponsored by someone in government who could have a lot of influence.
Grimbones 03-02-04, 10:00 AM	Originally posted by DeWayne But I will be adding some 'anti-fantasy-stuff' security measures in the near future. Thanks got the input. :) Speaking as a DM that is tired of dungeons and prisons that always seem designed with the intent of letting people in and out, DeWayne Love's take on the system is fun. Players usually excel to the standards we set before them, and with some teamwork and a fist-full of feats, a smart group of players should be able to escape, and have something to be proud about afterwards (other than finding the loose flagstone that led to the sewers...). DeWayne, any chance you'll post your prison plans for public consumption?
His Majesty 03-02-04, 10:09 AM	Replying to DeWayne: I agree with you about sefety precautions, but some of the conditions are, in my opinion, too harsh. Stripping the characters is not very reasonable - giving them new clothes (old rags, actually) would make more sense. What do the guards get from leaving them naked? As long as they are searched every several days, it seems fine to me. Additionaly, not giving them food is certainly too harsh, as it contradicts with one of the purposes of the prison - keeping them alive until they are trialed. I would say that they stay hungry, but do get some food from time to time. One meal every day should be enough. As for 'anti-fantasy-stuff', the local runethane (runic wizard) is nearby, but this is a low-magic world and people don't really know what to expect with magic. A smart 1st level magician might actually be able to escape from this particular prison, but the city prisons are much tougher. Replying to Naeron: I'M SORRY! CALM DOWN! They didn't use locate object, but another, higher level spell. The details are irrelevant, so I didn't describe it in detail. I slanted 'located' to indicate that the process was magical. I've gotta go - sorry - I'll edit this post later about the rest.
DeWayne 03-03-04, 01:55 AM	Originally posted by His Majesty ...Stripping the characters is not very reasonable - giving them new clothes (old rags, actually) would make more sense. What do the guards get from leaving them naked?... ...Additionally, not giving them food is certainly too harsh... The guards get 3 things from leaving them naked. First, by keeping them naked in cages it reduced them from the status of 'people' to the status of 'animal' which will be useful in breaking their will. While this may or may not work on PCs (depending on how the player responds), it works in the general case (i.e. against NPC prisoners) and the guards don't know the difference between PCs & NPCs. Second, if they do escape, a group of naked people will get noticed. A group of people in rags might not be. They are so much easier to recapture when everyone know which way the went. Third, clothing, like any other object, is a resource. I don't know how the players would exploit this resource, but I know they are clever enough to come up with something. The guards are depriving the prisoners of that resource. Next, food. By making the prisoner's friends and family pay for the prisoner's food, it relieves the prison of having to pay for this. Remember, the prison administration don't care about the prisoner's welfare. Additionally, this allows the city guard to know who cares enough about this guy to make sure he doesn't starve. That might be useful information if he escapes and they suspect 'outside help.' Besides, the guards, etc. aren't going to spend all of the money they get for this guy on food - they're going to pocket some of it. Finally, this type of arrangement was reasonably common, historically speaking. I just incorporated it along with the various other ideas. You're welcome to use, or not use, or modify my system to fit your world as needed. Originally posted by Grimbones DeWayne, any chance you'll post your prison plans for public consumption? Unfortunately, I only designed one cell block. The intent of the adventure was to catch a guy who was turning people to stone & selling them as statues, reverse the spells, and rescue the people. I never intended any of the PCs to get arrested. Unfortunately, one of the players took off on a wild tangent & forced my hand (I still haven't figured out why!). I roughed out the bare minimum I though I could get away with running the game and bounced my ideas on how the place should be run off a friend who works as a prison guard. The list I posted above was the result of that discussion. However, if I ever do complete the prison I'd be happy to post it.