But my character would know how to do that! [Archive] - Wizards Community

But my character would know how to do that! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Trydan
06-18-04, 04:14 AM WARNING: The ideas in this post have been demonstrated to be unfair and unworkable. Thus, if you don't want to waste your time, then stop reading now.

The original post (preserved below) was just an idea that I had. However, the feedback indicates that it really wasn't a very good one. Thank you to those who have commented so far, but I don't want to waste anyone elses time. Apologies for the incovenience!

End of edit... original post follows:

Picture the scene
The adventurers are caught in desperate battle, wounded and weary, they retreat into a corridor that turned out to be a dead-end. A group of orcs round the corner at the far end, but the wizard in the group has an idea... that scroll of Lightning Bolt.

The only problem is that he isn't high enough level to cast it.

Hmm... so how does that work? What do you do with caster-level checks? Do you need to do read magic or not? The rule-books come out, and the hitherto exciting game grinds to a halt.

In the end, the DM rules that the wizard loses his round.

"What? Why? Just because I can't remember the rule!? But my character would know how to do that!!!

Out of practice
If a character doesn't perform an action sufficiently often for the player to remember the rule, then why shouldn't the character also ponder how it was done. "Now just how would I go about using this scroll?" or "Invisibility... now how did that spell go again?" or even "My goodness! I haven't followed orc tracks in years!".

Learn it or lose it
Of course, if a player is forgetful, and wouldn't like that reflected in his or her character, then it is up to the player to copy the procedure for reading scrolls (or whatever) onto his or her character sheet or attached piece of paper.

If the player hesitates, then this is a reflection on the character. As the character sheet is the record of all the things that the character can do, but the player can't, then if it is not there, then it is a reflection of the lack of practice.

Conclusion
Hopefully this will help pick up the pace of games, and stop rule-searching becoming a major disruption to the feel of the game. Of course, DMs should be lenient on newcomers, and warn all the players in advance before running such a scheme, but with time, it will help everyone learn the rules better, and thus make for a better game.

Please feel free to comment/criticise. Thanks.
Dracoulis The Phyrexian
06-18-04, 04:20 AM Don't like it.

Why? Because, odds are, it's not going to be enforced evenly. Namely, the DM isn't likely to skip an enemy's turn because he wants to confirm something.

And if the DM is willing to do this to everyone, then odds are, many fights will be far easier, due to the fact that the DM will be required to remember more information.

Any additional burden on people for little benefit isn't exactly fun. And if it's not fun, it's not good for a game.
BlaineTog
06-18-04, 04:31 AM Originally posted by Trydan
"What? Why? Just because I can't remember the rule!? But my character would know how to do that!!!Ah the glory of Knowldge (or, in this case, possible Spellcraft) checks.

Out of practice
If a character doesn't perform an action sufficiently often for the player to remember the rule, then why shouldn't the character also ponder how it was done.So, theoretically, since the player probably doesn't cast spells IRL often enough to know how to do it himself, he can't do it?

Ever heard part 2 of that famous Dead Alewives clip?

"If you can't remember then your character can't remember!!!"

Finally, does your player have an Intelligence in the upper 100s, possible lower 200s?

Learn it or lose it
Of course, if a player is forgetful, and wouldn't like that reflected in his or her character, then it is up to the player to copy the procedure for reading scrolls (or whatever) onto his or her character sheet or attached piece of paper.This still seems reeeeaaaaalllly fishy to me. Chances are that the character spends more game time as a wizard than the player spends playing a wizard. Chances are that (s)he remembers how to use a scroll. In this specific case, the mechanics regarding using a spell with a higher CL than you are purely mechanical and the wizard would have no conscious effect on them; he reads off the scroll, just like normal, and hopes that he can handle the power.

If the player hesitates, then this is a reflection on the character.Do you also stage bench-press tests and endurance races to determine a character's Str and Con?

Conclusion
Hopefully this will help pick up the pace of games, and stop rule-searching becoming a major disruption to the feel of the game.Alternatelly, you could wing it. Just let him make a caster level check. If he beats it, it works. If he fails, it doesn't. If he fails by 5 or more, the scroll fizzles. If he fails by 10 or more, it fires back on him. Or something.

Or, you could just know the rules yourself ahead of time. Presumeably you gave him the scroll at some point; he certainly didn't make it himself. Therefore, you knew that this situation was going to come up and could have prepared for it.

Sorry if I sound iritable but I really don't like it when DMs try to fudge the line between characer and player.
MinusInnocence
06-18-04, 04:51 AM A summary of the OP's point - "move it or lose it," and if you hesitate you lose your action. When players make the argument that their character has more presence of mind than that, the DM cites their hesitation as a manifestation of the character's cluelessness. Maybe he got flustered or something.

Anyway, I strongly disagree with this notion. Characters in the gameworld have a LOT more to go on than the players around the table; this is only our hobby, and it's not like we slip into a bizarre power vacuum in between game sessions. We have real life to contend with, and sometimes D&D rules minutiae take a backseat to the grocery list.

On the other hand, take the hypothetical Wizard from our example. He has spent his whole life carefully cultivating the fragile magicks that make up his art; he probably traces arcane sigils and counts backward in Draconic while he sleeps. This is the sort of thing that he needs to do to keep his mind fresh, specifically so something like the aforementioned scenario never takes place.

The moral? Don't punish players because they aren't as 100% Gung-Ho Rulesmonger as you. Sure, like Fixxxer I advocate players shouldn't enter a campaign without having read the PHB through at least once; but I don't expect them to retain every third word on p114.
Trydan
06-18-04, 05:22 AM Originally posted by BlaineTog
Sorry if I sound iritable but I really don't like it when DMs try to fudge the line between characer and player. Don't be sorry. I wanted some feedback, that's why I posted! :)

Perhaps I didn't make the point sufficiently clear. I had envisaged that the player would write down the rules needed by a character somewhere on the character sheet. Thus, they could be referenced quickly and easily, and thus keep the game flowing.

If it was obscure, and required looking-up in the rulebooks, then this would be a reflection of the character's hesitation.

However, I see the objections, and I think that they are completely valid. Thanks for pointing them out (this was precisely why I posted this in the first place, of course - to get some feeedback).

If this scheme seems unworkable, I'll prefix the original post with a warning to stop wasting other people's time. However, I'll leave it as is for a bit, just to solicit some more comments.

Thanks again,
Trydan
Joe Khol
06-18-04, 06:45 AM Originally posted by Trydan
Picture the scene

Isn't it as much the DM's job as the player's to know the rules? After all, the DM put the scroll in his game in the first place. Shouldn't he make a note of the rules for using it? What about all the other players? You only get to looking in the books when everybody forgets a rule so why penalise one player?

Originally posted by Trydan
Out of practice

That logic works for something characters actively do but what about forgetting rules for something passive? Does this spell affect friends as well as enemies? Does my 5/slashing DR protect me from falling damage?

Originally posted by Trydan
Learn it or lose it

Most people don't want to play characters like themselves, they want to play heroes; people who are stronger, faster and smarter than us. It would be inappropriate to force a player's flaws onto all of his characters.

Obviously they should make notes of any common rules or procedures they're going be using but we're really talking about the rare, one-off situations. You can't expect every player to note down every ruling they may possibly need. They'd end up looking through several pages and taking longer than looking it up in the books.

Originally posted by Trydan
Conclusion

I have a much neater solution to this kind of problem which has always worked for me. If we have a rule nobody can remember (or a dispute) and it's taking too long to look up, I (the DM) make a ruling off the top of my head and the game keeps moving.

When we take a break, we'll track down the real rule in the books. More often than not I get pretty close to the actual rule. Sometimes my on-the-spot ruling is better than the real rule and becomes a house rule :) . Occasionally I get it completely wrong and we remember for the next time the situation comes up.

I tend to play fast and loose with the rules anyway. I think the roleplay and the fun are much more important to get right than the dice rolls and numbers.
Autosponge
06-18-04, 08:35 AM How about this idea! Learn the rules! Learn where to find them so you can find them quickly. If a rule search threatens to slow or halt the game use your imagination's pause button so your characters don't wander off and get into trouble.

Move it or lose it is a very bad idea. It's categorically unfair to the players since they can't tell the DM to move it or lose it. I agree players can help situations by having rules in front of them, but that is one of those things that comes with experience. But most of us who have come across a scroll trigger issue before can repeat the ruling easily, so it doesn't cause hang ups anymore.
Revelation
06-18-04, 09:18 AM I say give the guy a break, I acmit that as a mage he should keep this kind of information vaguely to hand, but if it has never come up before, and the DM doesn't know it don't blame him.

Thanks to my recent game Im well up on grapple, sunder, trip but have to look up bull rush and disarn as they're hardly used by my current group.

It sounds like the idea in this case was exactly what the party needed, If I couldn't find it I'd have fudged it, Spellcraft DC X+spell level. As others have said you can't always penalise the character for the players problems
Trydan
06-18-04, 09:55 AM Thank you everyone who has replied. I appreciate the feedback, as it prevents me from trying something stupid on my poor unsuspecting players. I have ammended the original post to warn anyone against wasting their time reading my ideas. Apologies for the distraction.

:embarrass
Mythmere
06-18-04, 10:40 AM Originally posted by Trydan
Thank you everyone who has replied. I appreciate the feedback, as it prevents me from trying something stupid on my poor unsuspecting players. I have ammended the original post to warn anyone against wasting their time reading my ideas. Apologies for the distraction.

:embarrass

Don't be embarrassed! If you want an example of someone who should be embarrassed, it's people who IGNORE what feedback they get and argue incessantly with people who provide the feedback. You had a thought, you posted it. Good for you! That's what the boards are made of. So it was probably a bad idea, so what? I'm guilty of bad ideas myself, at least, I was once. Now I am perfect and live in a planar mansion.
Revelation
06-18-04, 11:33 AM I'm with Mythmere on this one.

In a thread on this forum someone asked for help, every answer he was given got shot down, foe about FOUR pages worth of ideas. Often with no reasons. People did start to get a mite brusque with him!
Nom
06-20-04, 10:26 AM There's a sense I agree with what is being proposed - if a player can't remember how to use a standard character ability then it's unfair to the other players to bog the game down waiting for them.

However, that applies to "standard character abilities". If your 3rd level sorcerer (and not 1st time player of that character) doesn't have the damage of his prepared "magic missile" spell to hand, then it's fair to penalise the player. However, if the player is not regularly using the mechanic, then it's unfair to penalise them.

In the case above, how often did the wizard use a scroll with a higher level than himself? If once or twice a session, you have a point. If it's the first time he's tried this, then you're being an (donkey). By the same logic used here, a character who makes a jump check but doesn't know anything about jumping other than his jump skill should automatically fail. Or what about a character who is forced to make a grapple check (because he was attacked) but has never read the rules on grappling?

However, DM's have less excuse. If you put a jumping situation in your adventure, you better have some idea about jump checks. If you put a scroll that's higher than your PCs can cast, then you should have some idea how to find the rules to use it. Unlike the players, the DM has foreknowledge of the scenario and has no excuse for not knowing how to deal these situations, unless the players do something unexpected.
zodiki
06-20-04, 02:20 PM Not to be a stick in the mud, a fly in the ointment or a monkey in the wrench, but I agree with the original poster's ideas. Players should learn the rules and should be mildly punished when they don't. The only thing I'd change is that I'd reduce their round to a move-equivelant action instead of making them forfeit it altogether.

As for this situation punishing players more than the DM, there have been many times I have foregone an action for one of the antagonists because I didn't want to look up a special case in the rules and slow the action down.

If I know the rule though, I always tell the player or make a ruling on the spot. If the player is dissatisified and wants to look it up, they lose their standard action and get a ME instead. Another option would be to just move their place in initiative to the end of the line and give them that much time to figure it out.
Lxarth
06-20-04, 03:26 PM The rules for casting a spell from a scroll of a higher level is in the DMG, not the PHB...

I like the idea of telling the player to look it up while other people go, but if i were the player i would point out that this is your world your should know the rules better then anyone.

Drop the idea, its just gonna **** your players off.
april151978
06-20-04, 04:29 PM Ever try cards or a How-to-do sheet?... I used them heavily in 2nd edition, especially with new players or people who expected me to let them know of every advantage they could have...

For 3.5, I have made out sheets to print that have all the combat options, with the rules and adjustments on them, so all they have to do is hand me the card, and say they are doing what is on the card (and yes, they even say if they can be combined)...

As for a How-to-Do sheet, I used to give all the players one in 2nd edition, but now I hand out the world history and the such on 3.5 floppy, and they are to print out and use what I give them... They are to take the initiative anc print and use on those disks what they feel they need... The How-to-do list is all the wierder things than standard combat actions... It's a breif explination of some skills (mainly social skills), and spell casting odities (like casting spells over their level), and even some brief spell explinations (like the constantly used, but never read by players spell, Detect Magic)...

Maybe this is what is need for more people...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trydan 06-18-04, 04:14 AM	WARNING: The ideas in this post have been demonstrated to be unfair and unworkable. Thus, if you don't want to waste your time, then stop reading now. The original post (preserved below) was just an idea that I had. However, the feedback indicates that it really wasn't a very good one. Thank you to those who have commented so far, but I don't want to waste anyone elses time. Apologies for the incovenience! End of edit... original post follows: Picture the scene The adventurers are caught in desperate battle, wounded and weary, they retreat into a corridor that turned out to be a dead-end. A group of orcs round the corner at the far end, but the wizard in the group has an idea... that scroll of Lightning Bolt. The only problem is that he isn't high enough level to cast it. Hmm... so how does that work? What do you do with caster-level checks? Do you need to do read magic or not? The rule-books come out, and the hitherto exciting game grinds to a halt. In the end, the DM rules that the wizard loses his round. "What? Why? Just because I can't remember the rule!? But my character would know how to do that!!! Out of practice If a character doesn't perform an action sufficiently often for the player to remember the rule, then why shouldn't the character also ponder how it was done. "Now just how would I go about using this scroll?" or "Invisibility... now how did that spell go again?" or even "My goodness! I haven't followed orc tracks in years!". Learn it or lose it Of course, if a player is forgetful, and wouldn't like that reflected in his or her character, then it is up to the player to copy the procedure for reading scrolls (or whatever) onto his or her character sheet or attached piece of paper. If the player hesitates, then this is a reflection on the character. As the character sheet is the record of all the things that the character can do, but the player can't, then if it is not there, then it is a reflection of the lack of practice. Conclusion Hopefully this will help pick up the pace of games, and stop rule-searching becoming a major disruption to the feel of the game. Of course, DMs should be lenient on newcomers, and warn all the players in advance before running such a scheme, but with time, it will help everyone learn the rules better, and thus make for a better game. Please feel free to comment/criticise. Thanks.
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 06-18-04, 04:20 AM	Don't like it. Why? Because, odds are, it's not going to be enforced evenly. Namely, the DM isn't likely to skip an enemy's turn because he wants to confirm something. And if the DM is willing to do this to everyone, then odds are, many fights will be far easier, due to the fact that the DM will be required to remember more information. Any additional burden on people for little benefit isn't exactly fun. And if it's not fun, it's not good for a game.
BlaineTog 06-18-04, 04:31 AM	Originally posted by Trydan "What? Why? Just because I can't remember the rule!? But my character would know how to do that!!!Ah the glory of Knowldge (or, in this case, possible Spellcraft) checks. Out of practice If a character doesn't perform an action sufficiently often for the player to remember the rule, then why shouldn't the character also ponder how it was done.So, theoretically, since the player probably doesn't cast spells IRL often enough to know how to do it himself, he can't do it? Ever heard part 2 of that famous Dead Alewives clip? "If you can't remember then your character can't remember!!!" Finally, does your player have an Intelligence in the upper 100s, possible lower 200s? Learn it or lose it Of course, if a player is forgetful, and wouldn't like that reflected in his or her character, then it is up to the player to copy the procedure for reading scrolls (or whatever) onto his or her character sheet or attached piece of paper.This still seems reeeeaaaaalllly fishy to me. Chances are that the character spends more game time as a wizard than the player spends playing a wizard. Chances are that (s)he remembers how to use a scroll. In this specific case, the mechanics regarding using a spell with a higher CL than you are purely mechanical and the wizard would have no conscious effect on them; he reads off the scroll, just like normal, and hopes that he can handle the power. If the player hesitates, then this is a reflection on the character.Do you also stage bench-press tests and endurance races to determine a character's Str and Con? Conclusion Hopefully this will help pick up the pace of games, and stop rule-searching becoming a major disruption to the feel of the game.Alternatelly, you could wing it. Just let him make a caster level check. If he beats it, it works. If he fails, it doesn't. If he fails by 5 or more, the scroll fizzles. If he fails by 10 or more, it fires back on him. Or something. Or, you could just know the rules yourself ahead of time. Presumeably you gave him the scroll at some point; he certainly didn't make it himself. Therefore, you knew that this situation was going to come up and could have prepared for it. Sorry if I sound iritable but I really don't like it when DMs try to fudge the line between characer and player.
MinusInnocence 06-18-04, 04:51 AM	A summary of the OP's point - "move it or lose it," and if you hesitate you lose your action. When players make the argument that their character has more presence of mind than that, the DM cites their hesitation as a manifestation of the character's cluelessness. Maybe he got flustered or something. Anyway, I strongly disagree with this notion. Characters in the gameworld have a LOT more to go on than the players around the table; this is only our hobby, and it's not like we slip into a bizarre power vacuum in between game sessions. We have real life to contend with, and sometimes D&D rules minutiae take a backseat to the grocery list. On the other hand, take the hypothetical Wizard from our example. He has spent his whole life carefully cultivating the fragile magicks that make up his art; he probably traces arcane sigils and counts backward in Draconic while he sleeps. This is the sort of thing that he needs to do to keep his mind fresh, specifically so something like the aforementioned scenario never takes place. The moral? Don't punish players because they aren't as 100% Gung-Ho Rulesmonger as you. Sure, like Fixxxer I advocate players shouldn't enter a campaign without having read the PHB through at least once; but I don't expect them to retain every third word on p114.
Trydan 06-18-04, 05:22 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Sorry if I sound iritable but I really don't like it when DMs try to fudge the line between characer and player. Don't be sorry. I wanted some feedback, that's why I posted! :) Perhaps I didn't make the point sufficiently clear. I had envisaged that the player would write down the rules needed by a character somewhere on the character sheet. Thus, they could be referenced quickly and easily, and thus keep the game flowing. If it was obscure, and required looking-up in the rulebooks, then this would be a reflection of the character's hesitation. However, I see the objections, and I think that they are completely valid. Thanks for pointing them out (this was precisely why I posted this in the first place, of course - to get some feeedback). If this scheme seems unworkable, I'll prefix the original post with a warning to stop wasting other people's time. However, I'll leave it as is for a bit, just to solicit some more comments. Thanks again, Trydan
Joe Khol 06-18-04, 06:45 AM	Originally posted by Trydan Picture the scene Isn't it as much the DM's job as the player's to know the rules? After all, the DM put the scroll in his game in the first place. Shouldn't he make a note of the rules for using it? What about all the other players? You only get to looking in the books when everybody forgets a rule so why penalise one player? Originally posted by Trydan Out of practice That logic works for something characters actively do but what about forgetting rules for something passive? Does this spell affect friends as well as enemies? Does my 5/slashing DR protect me from falling damage? Originally posted by Trydan Learn it or lose it Most people don't want to play characters like themselves, they want to play heroes; people who are stronger, faster and smarter than us. It would be inappropriate to force a player's flaws onto all of his characters. Obviously they should make notes of any common rules or procedures they're going be using but we're really talking about the rare, one-off situations. You can't expect every player to note down every ruling they may possibly need. They'd end up looking through several pages and taking longer than looking it up in the books. Originally posted by Trydan Conclusion I have a much neater solution to this kind of problem which has always worked for me. If we have a rule nobody can remember (or a dispute) and it's taking too long to look up, I (the DM) make a ruling off the top of my head and the game keeps moving. When we take a break, we'll track down the real rule in the books. More often than not I get pretty close to the actual rule. Sometimes my on-the-spot ruling is better than the real rule and becomes a house rule :) . Occasionally I get it completely wrong and we remember for the next time the situation comes up. I tend to play fast and loose with the rules anyway. I think the roleplay and the fun are much more important to get right than the dice rolls and numbers.
Autosponge 06-18-04, 08:35 AM	How about this idea! Learn the rules! Learn where to find them so you can find them quickly. If a rule search threatens to slow or halt the game use your imagination's pause button so your characters don't wander off and get into trouble. Move it or lose it is a very bad idea. It's categorically unfair to the players since they can't tell the DM to move it or lose it. I agree players can help situations by having rules in front of them, but that is one of those things that comes with experience. But most of us who have come across a scroll trigger issue before can repeat the ruling easily, so it doesn't cause hang ups anymore.
Revelation 06-18-04, 09:18 AM	I say give the guy a break, I acmit that as a mage he should keep this kind of information vaguely to hand, but if it has never come up before, and the DM doesn't know it don't blame him. Thanks to my recent game Im well up on grapple, sunder, trip but have to look up bull rush and disarn as they're hardly used by my current group. It sounds like the idea in this case was exactly what the party needed, If I couldn't find it I'd have fudged it, Spellcraft DC X+spell level. As others have said you can't always penalise the character for the players problems
Trydan 06-18-04, 09:55 AM	Thank you everyone who has replied. I appreciate the feedback, as it prevents me from trying something stupid on my poor unsuspecting players. I have ammended the original post to warn anyone against wasting their time reading my ideas. Apologies for the distraction. :embarrass
Mythmere 06-18-04, 10:40 AM	Originally posted by Trydan Thank you everyone who has replied. I appreciate the feedback, as it prevents me from trying something stupid on my poor unsuspecting players. I have ammended the original post to warn anyone against wasting their time reading my ideas. Apologies for the distraction. :embarrass Don't be embarrassed! If you want an example of someone who should be embarrassed, it's people who IGNORE what feedback they get and argue incessantly with people who provide the feedback. You had a thought, you posted it. Good for you! That's what the boards are made of. So it was probably a bad idea, so what? I'm guilty of bad ideas myself, at least, I was once. Now I am perfect and live in a planar mansion.
Revelation 06-18-04, 11:33 AM	I'm with Mythmere on this one. In a thread on this forum someone asked for help, every answer he was given got shot down, foe about FOUR pages worth of ideas. Often with no reasons. People did start to get a mite brusque with him!
Nom 06-20-04, 10:26 AM	There's a sense I agree with what is being proposed - if a player can't remember how to use a standard character ability then it's unfair to the other players to bog the game down waiting for them. However, that applies to "standard character abilities". If your 3rd level sorcerer (and not 1st time player of that character) doesn't have the damage of his prepared "magic missile" spell to hand, then it's fair to penalise the player. However, if the player is not regularly using the mechanic, then it's unfair to penalise them. In the case above, how often did the wizard use a scroll with a higher level than himself? If once or twice a session, you have a point. If it's the first time he's tried this, then you're being an (donkey). By the same logic used here, a character who makes a jump check but doesn't know anything about jumping other than his jump skill should automatically fail. Or what about a character who is forced to make a grapple check (because he was attacked) but has never read the rules on grappling? However, DM's have less excuse. If you put a jumping situation in your adventure, you better have some idea about jump checks. If you put a scroll that's higher than your PCs can cast, then you should have some idea how to find the rules to use it. Unlike the players, the DM has foreknowledge of the scenario and has no excuse for not knowing how to deal these situations, unless the players do something unexpected.
zodiki 06-20-04, 02:20 PM	Not to be a stick in the mud, a fly in the ointment or a monkey in the wrench, but I agree with the original poster's ideas. Players should learn the rules and should be mildly punished when they don't. The only thing I'd change is that I'd reduce their round to a move-equivelant action instead of making them forfeit it altogether. As for this situation punishing players more than the DM, there have been many times I have foregone an action for one of the antagonists because I didn't want to look up a special case in the rules and slow the action down. If I know the rule though, I always tell the player or make a ruling on the spot. If the player is dissatisified and wants to look it up, they lose their standard action and get a ME instead. Another option would be to just move their place in initiative to the end of the line and give them that much time to figure it out.
Lxarth 06-20-04, 03:26 PM	The rules for casting a spell from a scroll of a higher level is in the DMG, not the PHB... I like the idea of telling the player to look it up while other people go, but if i were the player i would point out that this is your world your should know the rules better then anyone. Drop the idea, its just gonna **** your players off.
april151978 06-20-04, 04:29 PM	Ever try cards or a How-to-do sheet?... I used them heavily in 2nd edition, especially with new players or people who expected me to let them know of every advantage they could have... For 3.5, I have made out sheets to print that have all the combat options, with the rules and adjustments on them, so all they have to do is hand me the card, and say they are doing what is on the card (and yes, they even say if they can be combined)... As for a How-to-Do sheet, I used to give all the players one in 2nd edition, but now I hand out the world history and the such on 3.5 floppy, and they are to print out and use what I give them... They are to take the initiative anc print and use on those disks what they feel they need... The How-to-do list is all the wierder things than standard combat actions... It's a breif explination of some skills (mainly social skills), and spell casting odities (like casting spells over their level), and even some brief spell explinations (like the constantly used, but never read by players spell, Detect Magic)... Maybe this is what is need for more people...