But old characters DO make good NPC's [Archive] - Wizards Community

But old characters DO make good NPC's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Vorpal Tribble
02-10-06, 09:56 AM I've heard a certain saying just once too many times now on these forums.

'Never use an old character of yours as an NPC in a game'

I've heard the arguments and I say 'PFFFTTTT'.

I often reuse characters from my old games as NPC's in the games I DM. Why?

#1. I feel comfortable with them.
#2. I put a good deal of effort into developing their personalities already.

But, as some say, you'll start playing favorites!

Bull. You can do that with 'any' NPC.

I've played in numerous campaigns before I realized I enjoyed DMing even more. I remember my first game. There was a gnome NPC, a fighter. He was hillarious, crude, and a twit, but we all loved him (though some of the characters wanted to wring his neck). He had an in depth personality, he gave advice now and again, and was, yes, almost like another player. I never once felt however that he was taking over the game or outshining the others. He just gave more depth to the game that we all enjoyed.

Conversely I've played in games where the DM was so afraid of the main NPC outshining us that most of the time we forgot he was there. He was basically a walking band-aid for us, only really making an appearance to heal. This was rather dull.

In my most recent game I'm running two groups who are in the same world at the same time but they have seperated out for a good while. The survivors however will return and form into a full group. Each one of them is lead by two NPC's who are a level or two higher than they. However, bonds forged by neccessity of survival will make it so none are really the leader, they just will be doing whatever it takes to get through the hardships they will face. I also chose the NPC's to go with the players based on their strengths. The NPC's may shine in certain areas, the players in others.

In one group you have a couple of druids a wizard, and a paladin. Since the paladin is the only real warrior, the NPC's with them will be a fighter/ranger and a sort of battle bard. All of them have their strengths and I don't see the NPC's being a problem. I've played these NPC's before, and they will be warmed up to easily.

I've never ever had a problem with using past characters as NPC's, and usually these long-term NPC's are well liked and the players feel they add to the play instead of taking it away.

To put it in a nutshell, if you are showing favoritism with your NPC's, its your fault, because it doesn't have to be that way. No one is making that NPC grasp for the limelight but the DM.

Anyone with a modicum of self control should have no problem. And if you don't have a bit of self control, you really shouldn't be DMing to begin with.
The White Sorcerer
02-10-06, 10:03 AM Indeed. It's only a problem when a DM uses his old high-level PC as a Deus ex Machina.
CzarGarrett
02-10-06, 10:15 AM I always use old PCs of mine and some old PCs from players as NPCs.

If one of my players has a character that did something incredible, when that PC retires, the event still happened and will be remembered. Its a safe thought to say that bards told enough stories about the event that the PC turned NPC became a minor Lord, rich merchant, a celeberity in some part or another.

Hell, the one character I personally played that ascended to Godhood, I stuck with his character personality of being a wanderer, and often have minor cults devoted to him on all kinds of different planes.
torchflame
02-10-06, 10:21 AM I've run a game where the old Player's PCs were NPCs. Even had my brother put in a cameo as his old Druid (who had taken over a position as the guardian of a sacred forest). I often include old PCs as NPCs sometimes mine, sometimes players. And the players who've stayed with me really appreciate this, as it adds depth to the world, and they like to see what has become of their characters (and mine) in the years since.

One in particular has been a flagship NPC in many of my campaigns, even across worlds. I don't see a problem with this, because, as Tribble said, I've put a good deal of time and energy into these characters. When you need an NPC with some real depth to them, there's nothing wrong with having a stash of ready-made characters who are second nature to portray.

I have to agree with Sorcerer, though, the DM needs to remember that his stack of ready-made second nature NPCs are just that. NON player characters.
The Vorpal Tribble
02-10-06, 02:26 PM It's only a problem when a DM uses his old high-level PC as a Deus ex Machina.
Heh, 'As the dragon swoops down a mighty figure in white gallops in from the west. "Do not worry, lads, I am here!" he roars, drawing his blade that sparkles in the light.

"Wait, where did you come from? How'd you get a horse up the cliff?"

"Uh, well... *POOF*"
LCD2YOU
02-10-06, 02:58 PM There is a self-correcting mechanism that players can use if the DM keeps on using old PCs as "ducks-ona-machine".

They can let the DM and his DMPCs alone for a while. But then again, maybe the DM wants to play with just themself.
TheChilliGod
02-10-06, 05:04 PM I say PPFFFFFTTT as well, to those that think a former PC isn't supposed to be allowed in it's owners own campaign.

I've put in a grand total of 3 old PC's—two of which are not my own, but I had permission to insert them nonetheless—into my campaign, and it has never been better.

My favorite old PC, MURK (Orc Fighter), pops up every now and then to catch up with the PC's on odd times, and to have a friendly battle with the half-orc PC. He always brings an extra element of comedy to the table (with 4 intelligence, who wouldn't) and even though he can outfight likely the whole party, I never make him do a Deus Ex Machina, nor have him be anywhere in the spotlight.
Milandros
02-10-06, 05:21 PM It's reasonable, as long as you can be fair. Genuinely fair. Your NPCs are expendable for the sake of the game. If it makes sense for one of them to be murdered by the bad guy, then he's murdered. If a PC kills one, then he dies. For real. No miraculous escapes, sudden natural 20s, boosting their hit points or stats, or any other "but I like him, he's my PC, he can't die!" nonsense.

You're not really re-using the PC unless the game is set in exactly the same game universe - you're creating a new NPC and basing it on the old PCs personality. Remember, interesting NPC make your world seem exciting, but the PCs are and must always be the stars of the show.
Terraneaux
02-10-06, 05:22 PM I think that it can work out great if handled properly. Of course the risk that's to be run is that the ex-pc takes the spotlight from the pcs, but even this is okay as long as it is very brief and the purpose of it is not to make the pcs look bad.

The other option of course is to have the ex-pc become a villain. And as long as this is done with the full intent of the pcs eventually defeating him or her, it can be very effective as a story device.
DarknessEternal
02-10-06, 07:11 PM It adds depth and persistance to a campaign setting. DMs would be foolish to not do this.
Ichor Spellka
02-10-06, 07:41 PM I'd like to highlight the self-control aspect that a DM requires to do this properly. I've seen old PCs used very well as NPCs, and some less so. I know that it can be done, but it needs to be done right, or it might have a serious adverse affect on the campaign.

For instance, in one of the games, we were working on a rotating DM basis, and the brand new DM brought in his highly optimized CR 20 character, in a level 8 game. He brought him in as applying to work for us (one of the players had recently taken over a town). Basically, had we not retrogamed it, and let that person out of the burden of DMing (bringing in the old character was the only part he really enjoyed about it), it really would have affected the campaign in a negative fashion. (Evil party, NPC = Werebear frenzied berserker, and some of us aren't as good at doing the subtle evil as others.)

I've seen some DMs do it rather well, introducing an old PC as an NPC of some consequence. Usually this involved bringing in the NPC as someone of little importance to the overall story or plot. I find that so long as the game is not about the DM exploring part of the NPC's story, it tends to work out rather well.

The story works alot better if it involves how the party did this, and not how X manipulated the party into sneaking into his enemy's stronghold as a distraction while X did something else. Basically, if you can't picture replacing X with another NPC, then you might want to try and work on your focus.
illiterate
02-10-06, 07:46 PM Properly using an old personal PC as an NPC is a test of the DM's maturity, to be certain.

One session with a massively overpowered DMPC in the party led to me never playing with a certain DM again. It was the only one I played with him. Reports from others who stayed in the game vindicated my decision. While the DM agreed to tone down that DMPC's involvement in the plot, the game was poorly managed and ended up being very unsatisfying.
Archmage_Vall
02-10-06, 10:51 PM I like to reuse old PCs too, especially one of the first ones I ever played, an elven wizard/archmage named Vall. Vall has appeared as an NPC in every game I've DM'ed, in some form. The other PCs from that old campaign make occasional cameos as well. In one game I was DMing a 9-10th level party, and they broke into a fort full of frost giants and vampires, in order to rescue a group of Goliaths from them. Among the captive goliaths was a certain epic-level elven archmage. He was grateful to the party for "rescuing" him, and rewarded them with a scroll of "Summon Owning Squad," a 9th level independently researched spell. A couple of sessions later, they used the scroll, and it summoned the (level 14-16) PCs from the old game (which had the same players as this one). They each played their old characters (the old DM played Vall, my former PC), and then the summon got dispelled after 1 round. :cool:
Vaalingrade Ashland
02-10-06, 11:23 PM The character that bears my SN has been not only included as a DMPC, but demanded as one in two different campaigns. They didn't just meet him and pick him up as a party member, they went out of thier way to seek out and hire him. When, in the second campaign, he refused (on IC grounds), they begged me OOC to have him change his mind.

I'm dead serious. Now it might be the fact that no one but me in my entire group (12 people) ever wants to get roguey, but I like to think they just like the character, considering they ask from Vaalingrade by name.

Also, one of my other characters, (Coulmni Agni, the cutest lil' sorceress in the whole, wide world -- ask me and I will make a thread detailing her first hilarious exploit) has made an apperance in over 14 games on 6 worlds under four DMs. but that's because she's so darn cute... and evil... Cutevil.
Bryarr
02-11-06, 11:04 AM heh, I thought the thread was about NPCs in the Old age category.

Bry
ZARATHOS1972
02-11-06, 11:53 AM I do like to give old PC's of mine a cameo in adventures on occassion.
Although, most of my players weren't around when I played these characters, so it doen't always have an impact on the PC's.
I do like using the players old PC's as NPC's on occassion. This guarantees that at least one party member will react favorably. These NPC's normally don't stay around long, and I do try to make sure I don't kill them, unless I know the player won't mind if an old PC dies.
Wargamer
02-11-06, 12:06 PM Done it, and it works.

My beloved Rogue, Fletcher, has made cameos. He did very well for himself, as did all his party, and so they are getting the praise they deseve!

Of the party, there are currently three cameos in two Campaigns;

The first two are Zebias and Bragg... both of which have jumped into an "Epic" Campaign (they were nigh on level 20, so a few free levels and some new Wargear got them into line). I assumed, therefore, that the Legends Quest was set in the same universe, just on another plain (perhaps a sub-plane...).

The second is a War campaign, where Fletcher appeared. Having done well in his homeland, he travelled far to the south to the Sabbat Dukedoms, where his espionage skills are invaluable. He has an entire regiment of Rogues (and similar) under his command, and spends most of his time sat at the back making plans, and reminiscing about the "good old days" of adventuring.

It really is amazing to see how the party reacts when they realise the guy giving them orders is a character they (as players, not PCs) are very familiar with, and trust explicitely... that alone makes it worth the effort.
sarlinspellweaver
02-11-06, 03:56 PM I avoid using NPCs that travel with the group in general because my group is fairly large, and the other DM tends to have games where he includes several 'godlike' characters to cut down our foes before we have a chance (thus I'm hoping he might get the hint when he plays my games that people don't like watching Sir Uberkill whack the dragons WE were supposed to fight). Having said that, I have made use of ex-PCs from previous incarnations of my campaign. We've been playing in the same world for years (although about 200 years have passed in game time since the first campaign), so those PCs who didn't meet a grisly end often turn up in cameo roles here and there. In my case, though, I started my campaign with a different rules setting (WFRP), so the characters from previous campaigns often have a very different flavour to them than the bog-standard D&D NPC stereotypes. Only problem is converting the rulesets... Mind you, this is becoming less of a problem as most of them (at 200+ years) aren't up to much combat :D
Ogmug
02-11-06, 04:30 PM I have several Ex PCs that have migrated to my world as NPCs. However I don't adventure with them (they were all high level when I retired them).

One is the rule of a kingdom, and has too many other duties he has to do to bother adventuring with the lower level people. He does however employ the PCs from time to time, sending out riders to ask them to come to his castle so he can give them the details. (He had several unfinished things he needed for a powerful magic item he needs. Now with ruling a kingdom, he doesn't have time to go slay that night hag for her eyes, even though he could probably walk up and take them single handedly. Why when he has other things that must be done for his people. Leave the adventureing to the adventurers. He is a king now).

The other is the leader of a guild of adventurers, and is their "employer". She is a mysterious figure (as she was in the campaign as well), for if you do have to see her, you had better hope you are on her good side.

Another is a wandering cleric (in the employ of the first NPC) who is set to tell the world of the wonders of his deity (home grown deity). He is more words than deeds, but is extremely capable. Again, he is there to give advice (the players have to seek him out if they want it).

If any of these ex-PCs were to die it would happen. I am not so enamored of them that they are sacrosanct. Someone gets a hair up to kill the cleric because he insulted them, and they have the power to do it? then he is dead (of course there are always consequences, but that can lead to more adventures)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vorpal Tribble 02-10-06, 09:56 AM	I've heard a certain saying just once too many times now on these forums. 'Never use an old character of yours as an NPC in a game' I've heard the arguments and I say 'PFFFTTTT'. I often reuse characters from my old games as NPC's in the games I DM. Why? #1. I feel comfortable with them. #2. I put a good deal of effort into developing their personalities already. But, as some say, you'll start playing favorites! Bull. You can do that with 'any' NPC. I've played in numerous campaigns before I realized I enjoyed DMing even more. I remember my first game. There was a gnome NPC, a fighter. He was hillarious, crude, and a twit, but we all loved him (though some of the characters wanted to wring his neck). He had an in depth personality, he gave advice now and again, and was, yes, almost like another player. I never once felt however that he was taking over the game or outshining the others. He just gave more depth to the game that we all enjoyed. Conversely I've played in games where the DM was so afraid of the main NPC outshining us that most of the time we forgot he was there. He was basically a walking band-aid for us, only really making an appearance to heal. This was rather dull. In my most recent game I'm running two groups who are in the same world at the same time but they have seperated out for a good while. The survivors however will return and form into a full group. Each one of them is lead by two NPC's who are a level or two higher than they. However, bonds forged by neccessity of survival will make it so none are really the leader, they just will be doing whatever it takes to get through the hardships they will face. I also chose the NPC's to go with the players based on their strengths. The NPC's may shine in certain areas, the players in others. In one group you have a couple of druids a wizard, and a paladin. Since the paladin is the only real warrior, the NPC's with them will be a fighter/ranger and a sort of battle bard. All of them have their strengths and I don't see the NPC's being a problem. I've played these NPC's before, and they will be warmed up to easily. I've never ever had a problem with using past characters as NPC's, and usually these long-term NPC's are well liked and the players feel they add to the play instead of taking it away. To put it in a nutshell, if you are showing favoritism with your NPC's, its your fault, because it doesn't have to be that way. No one is making that NPC grasp for the limelight but the DM. Anyone with a modicum of self control should have no problem. And if you don't have a bit of self control, you really shouldn't be DMing to begin with.
The White Sorcerer 02-10-06, 10:03 AM	Indeed. It's only a problem when a DM uses his old high-level PC as a Deus ex Machina.
CzarGarrett 02-10-06, 10:15 AM	I always use old PCs of mine and some old PCs from players as NPCs. If one of my players has a character that did something incredible, when that PC retires, the event still happened and will be remembered. Its a safe thought to say that bards told enough stories about the event that the PC turned NPC became a minor Lord, rich merchant, a celeberity in some part or another. Hell, the one character I personally played that ascended to Godhood, I stuck with his character personality of being a wanderer, and often have minor cults devoted to him on all kinds of different planes.
torchflame 02-10-06, 10:21 AM	I've run a game where the old Player's PCs were NPCs. Even had my brother put in a cameo as his old Druid (who had taken over a position as the guardian of a sacred forest). I often include old PCs as NPCs sometimes mine, sometimes players. And the players who've stayed with me really appreciate this, as it adds depth to the world, and they like to see what has become of their characters (and mine) in the years since. One in particular has been a flagship NPC in many of my campaigns, even across worlds. I don't see a problem with this, because, as Tribble said, I've put a good deal of time and energy into these characters. When you need an NPC with some real depth to them, there's nothing wrong with having a stash of ready-made characters who are second nature to portray. I have to agree with Sorcerer, though, the DM needs to remember that his stack of ready-made second nature NPCs are just that. NON player characters.
The Vorpal Tribble 02-10-06, 02:26 PM	It's only a problem when a DM uses his old high-level PC as a Deus ex Machina. Heh, 'As the dragon swoops down a mighty figure in white gallops in from the west. "Do not worry, lads, I am here!" he roars, drawing his blade that sparkles in the light. "Wait, where did you come from? How'd you get a horse up the cliff?" "Uh, well... POOF"
LCD2YOU 02-10-06, 02:58 PM	There is a self-correcting mechanism that players can use if the DM keeps on using old PCs as "ducks-ona-machine". They can let the DM and his DMPCs alone for a while. But then again, maybe the DM wants to play with just themself.
TheChilliGod 02-10-06, 05:04 PM	I say PPFFFFFTTT as well, to those that think a former PC isn't supposed to be allowed in it's owners own campaign. I've put in a grand total of 3 old PC's—two of which are not my own, but I had permission to insert them nonetheless—into my campaign, and it has never been better. My favorite old PC, MURK (Orc Fighter), pops up every now and then to catch up with the PC's on odd times, and to have a friendly battle with the half-orc PC. He always brings an extra element of comedy to the table (with 4 intelligence, who wouldn't) and even though he can outfight likely the whole party, I never make him do a Deus Ex Machina, nor have him be anywhere in the spotlight.
Milandros 02-10-06, 05:21 PM	It's reasonable, as long as you can be fair. Genuinely fair. Your NPCs are expendable for the sake of the game. If it makes sense for one of them to be murdered by the bad guy, then he's murdered. If a PC kills one, then he dies. For real. No miraculous escapes, sudden natural 20s, boosting their hit points or stats, or any other "but I like him, he's my PC, he can't die!" nonsense. You're not really re-using the PC unless the game is set in exactly the same game universe - you're creating a new NPC and basing it on the old PCs personality. Remember, interesting NPC make your world seem exciting, but the PCs are and must always be the stars of the show.
Terraneaux 02-10-06, 05:22 PM	I think that it can work out great if handled properly. Of course the risk that's to be run is that the ex-pc takes the spotlight from the pcs, but even this is okay as long as it is very brief and the purpose of it is not to make the pcs look bad. The other option of course is to have the ex-pc become a villain. And as long as this is done with the full intent of the pcs eventually defeating him or her, it can be very effective as a story device.
DarknessEternal 02-10-06, 07:11 PM	It adds depth and persistance to a campaign setting. DMs would be foolish to not do this.
Ichor Spellka 02-10-06, 07:41 PM	I'd like to highlight the self-control aspect that a DM requires to do this properly. I've seen old PCs used very well as NPCs, and some less so. I know that it can be done, but it needs to be done right, or it might have a serious adverse affect on the campaign. For instance, in one of the games, we were working on a rotating DM basis, and the brand new DM brought in his highly optimized CR 20 character, in a level 8 game. He brought him in as applying to work for us (one of the players had recently taken over a town). Basically, had we not retrogamed it, and let that person out of the burden of DMing (bringing in the old character was the only part he really enjoyed about it), it really would have affected the campaign in a negative fashion. (Evil party, NPC = Werebear frenzied berserker, and some of us aren't as good at doing the subtle evil as others.) I've seen some DMs do it rather well, introducing an old PC as an NPC of some consequence. Usually this involved bringing in the NPC as someone of little importance to the overall story or plot. I find that so long as the game is not about the DM exploring part of the NPC's story, it tends to work out rather well. The story works alot better if it involves how the party did this, and not how X manipulated the party into sneaking into his enemy's stronghold as a distraction while X did something else. Basically, if you can't picture replacing X with another NPC, then you might want to try and work on your focus.
illiterate 02-10-06, 07:46 PM	Properly using an old personal PC as an NPC is a test of the DM's maturity, to be certain. One session with a massively overpowered DMPC in the party led to me never playing with a certain DM again. It was the only one I played with him. Reports from others who stayed in the game vindicated my decision. While the DM agreed to tone down that DMPC's involvement in the plot, the game was poorly managed and ended up being very unsatisfying.
Archmage_Vall 02-10-06, 10:51 PM	I like to reuse old PCs too, especially one of the first ones I ever played, an elven wizard/archmage named Vall. Vall has appeared as an NPC in every game I've DM'ed, in some form. The other PCs from that old campaign make occasional cameos as well. In one game I was DMing a 9-10th level party, and they broke into a fort full of frost giants and vampires, in order to rescue a group of Goliaths from them. Among the captive goliaths was a certain epic-level elven archmage. He was grateful to the party for "rescuing" him, and rewarded them with a scroll of "Summon Owning Squad," a 9th level independently researched spell. A couple of sessions later, they used the scroll, and it summoned the (level 14-16) PCs from the old game (which had the same players as this one). They each played their old characters (the old DM played Vall, my former PC), and then the summon got dispelled after 1 round. :cool:
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-10-06, 11:23 PM	The character that bears my SN has been not only included as a DMPC, but demanded as one in two different campaigns. They didn't just meet him and pick him up as a party member, they went out of thier way to seek out and hire him. When, in the second campaign, he refused (on IC grounds), they begged me OOC to have him change his mind. I'm dead serious. Now it might be the fact that no one but me in my entire group (12 people) ever wants to get roguey, but I like to think they just like the character, considering they ask from Vaalingrade by name. Also, one of my other characters, (Coulmni Agni, the cutest lil' sorceress in the whole, wide world -- ask me and I will make a thread detailing her first hilarious exploit) has made an apperance in over 14 games on 6 worlds under four DMs. but that's because she's so darn cute... and evil... Cutevil.
Bryarr 02-11-06, 11:04 AM	heh, I thought the thread was about NPCs in the Old age category. Bry
ZARATHOS1972 02-11-06, 11:53 AM	I do like to give old PC's of mine a cameo in adventures on occassion. Although, most of my players weren't around when I played these characters, so it doen't always have an impact on the PC's. I do like using the players old PC's as NPC's on occassion. This guarantees that at least one party member will react favorably. These NPC's normally don't stay around long, and I do try to make sure I don't kill them, unless I know the player won't mind if an old PC dies.
Wargamer 02-11-06, 12:06 PM	Done it, and it works. My beloved Rogue, Fletcher, has made cameos. He did very well for himself, as did all his party, and so they are getting the praise they deseve! Of the party, there are currently three cameos in two Campaigns; The first two are Zebias and Bragg... both of which have jumped into an "Epic" Campaign (they were nigh on level 20, so a few free levels and some new Wargear got them into line). I assumed, therefore, that the Legends Quest was set in the same universe, just on another plain (perhaps a sub-plane...). The second is a War campaign, where Fletcher appeared. Having done well in his homeland, he travelled far to the south to the Sabbat Dukedoms, where his espionage skills are invaluable. He has an entire regiment of Rogues (and similar) under his command, and spends most of his time sat at the back making plans, and reminiscing about the "good old days" of adventuring. It really is amazing to see how the party reacts when they realise the guy giving them orders is a character they (as players, not PCs) are very familiar with, and trust explicitely... that alone makes it worth the effort.
sarlinspellweaver 02-11-06, 03:56 PM	I avoid using NPCs that travel with the group in general because my group is fairly large, and the other DM tends to have games where he includes several 'godlike' characters to cut down our foes before we have a chance (thus I'm hoping he might get the hint when he plays my games that people don't like watching Sir Uberkill whack the dragons WE were supposed to fight). Having said that, I have made use of ex-PCs from previous incarnations of my campaign. We've been playing in the same world for years (although about 200 years have passed in game time since the first campaign), so those PCs who didn't meet a grisly end often turn up in cameo roles here and there. In my case, though, I started my campaign with a different rules setting (WFRP), so the characters from previous campaigns often have a very different flavour to them than the bog-standard D&D NPC stereotypes. Only problem is converting the rulesets... Mind you, this is becoming less of a problem as most of them (at 200+ years) aren't up to much combat :D
Ogmug 02-11-06, 04:30 PM	I have several Ex PCs that have migrated to my world as NPCs. However I don't adventure with them (they were all high level when I retired them). One is the rule of a kingdom, and has too many other duties he has to do to bother adventuring with the lower level people. He does however employ the PCs from time to time, sending out riders to ask them to come to his castle so he can give them the details. (He had several unfinished things he needed for a powerful magic item he needs. Now with ruling a kingdom, he doesn't have time to go slay that night hag for her eyes, even though he could probably walk up and take them single handedly. Why when he has other things that must be done for his people. Leave the adventureing to the adventurers. He is a king now). The other is the leader of a guild of adventurers, and is their "employer". She is a mysterious figure (as she was in the campaign as well), for if you do have to see her, you had better hope you are on her good side. Another is a wandering cleric (in the employ of the first NPC) who is set to tell the world of the wonders of his deity (home grown deity). He is more words than deeds, but is extremely capable. Again, he is there to give advice (the players have to seek him out if they want it). If any of these ex-PCs were to die it would happen. I am not so enamored of them that they are sacrosanct. Someone gets a hair up to kill the cleric because he insulted them, and they have the power to do it? then he is dead (of course there are always consequences, but that can lead to more adventures)