Buy in Bulk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buy in Bulk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ZenZ
06-07-05, 11:36 PM My PCs are going on a journey to the Underdark and thought that they would like to take trade goods along to make money and perhaps give as gifts. Of course certain items are rare in the Underdark. Grains, fabrics, wood, etc. But how to I charge them for bulk purchases? Say they want to buy a ton of wheat and two tons of rice (the PCs are masters of Shrink Item spells), how much do I chearge them? Any resources out there for items like 60 feet of raw timber or 6 bolts of fine red silk?
DeathMagus
06-07-05, 11:50 PM My PCs are going on a journey to the Underdark and thought that they would like to take trade goods along to make money and perhaps give as gifts. Of course certain items are rare in the Underdark. Grains, fabrics, wood, etc. But how to I charge them for bulk purchases? Say they want to buy a ton of wheat and two tons of rice (the PCs are masters of Shrink Item spells), how much do I chearge them? Any resources out there for items like 60 feet of raw timber or 6 bolts of fine red silk?
Add up all the individual prices, then assign an arbitrary percentile based on how much efficiency one can gain from packaging in bulk. For example, grain can be put all in one bag for a cheaper price - say 80% of the original. However, water clocks aren't really packagable in any way that is cheaper in bulk, so the price would be 100%.

BTW, I'm pulling all this out of my posterior region. Please consider before using.
Airsucker
06-08-05, 01:07 AM I agree on the 80%. That leaves room for the sellers markup and the cost of the goods.

A water clock would be a bad investment, since it is fragile and a trip to the Underdark will likely be rough.

Rare consumeables would also be a good trade, like truffles.

Silk: a nobles outfit is 200 gp and probably has about 5 yards of silk, let's say. The seamstress will make a 30% to 40% markup, and there are other materials. That leaves us at about 100gp per 5 yards. (before machine processing, silk production was very labor intensive, one woman has to be able to find the end of the thread on the cocoon that's about a half inch long)

If I think of more, I'll come back.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
06-08-05, 01:22 AM Simplest thign to do is to roll for each by percentile dice and attribute freakishly large or small prices to market fluctuations in the game world ("There was a bumper crop of wheat in Cormyr, so a ton is only 20 gold, but there were massive forest fires in Chult, so lumber is 2000 gold for a ton,etc...").

Some things to consider: Lumber in the Underdark is really only valuable to those who value aestheticism above function, as there are large woody fungi in the Underdark that are used for things which lumber are used for above ground. Also, there are guilds both above and below ground that would not look kindly to adventurers spreading goods around like they were merchants. Indeed, the players would likely need to spend a fair ammount of coin on a mercantile liscence alone. Be sure to check out the Underdark web supplement on organizations... it might give you some ideas for encounters (After all... they'd look like merchants, so a certain group of underdark anarchists might give them a "check-up"...)
DeathMagus
06-08-05, 01:26 AM I agree on the 80%. That leaves room for the sellers markup and the cost of the goods.

A water clock would be a bad investment, since it is fragile and a trip to the Underdark will likely be rough.

My main point was that some things pack together more readily, granting larger discounts. Since there's no way to bundle water clocks, they cost full price for 1000 of them. Grain, on the other hand, bundles together very well - you can just throw more and more into larger and larger packages - thus I said 80%. Something more...unit-y, such as pies or fish, I'd say about 90%.
Bringslite
06-08-05, 02:43 AM I have worked in the retail business for some time. In an ideal market place a retailer will double his investment, or a 50% mark up. In a competitave marketplace profits will or markups can range from 20-40%. Anything less is not worth the merchant's time. This, of course, assumes that the merchant is a middle man. He is buying product from a producer. The bulk or transportability of the goods has everything to do with it's finale cost. Yet this cost is inevitably passed on to each "middle man".

To answer your question, any merchant wants to double his investment but must sometimes settle for less. The cost for the bulk and difficulty to transport/ship the merchandise is always moved on to the next purchaser. So, to the PCs that is just another :pint: factor. They set the price for thier goods. Great potential for profits are there for those that are willing to take risks and move goods through dangerous areas to untapped marketplaces.

:pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint:
Yruc
06-08-05, 04:07 AM Where are you going to find 2 tons of rice and 1 ton of wheat in a single town/city? It would probably take many towns and citys buying up peoples extra food they make... Unless your world has a massive farming industry.

But I would think that the cost to get the supplies to the PCs would definatly raise the costs, unless there is some central storage place they can goto like a silo and just zap it down to minature size.. then may give a discout if it doesn't have to be caravan'ed in.
ZenZ
06-10-05, 10:21 PM I understand the mark up concept. And I know how much the PCs can SELL the bulk material for in the Underdark. What I need is a price (pounds would be GREAT) for items like sugar, silk, linen, rice, wheat, barley, pine wood, cherry wood, etc...

What would you charge in your campaign. Please give me some examples. Is there any source material on this?

The idea I'm working with is a Boomtown much like DEADWOOD. THe PCs can make a ton of cash if they can meet with the right people, make a bargin, and then hang on to the cash.

Thanks for helping!
ZenZ
06-10-05, 10:23 PM And one more thing...

The city the PCs are in is very much like a costal version of Paris. Lots of trade and plenty of raw bulk items from around the globe.
Bringslite
06-10-05, 11:10 PM For Grains and bulk foodstuffs I would, IMC, charge 1 cp/pound. At the bulk of ton maybe 1/2 to 3/4 cp/pound. That would be a good deal for the PCs as it could always be sold pound by pound. It is always in demand somewhere.

Fine hardwoods, maybe 1 cp to 1 sp per square foot, depending on the rarity.

Bolts of cloth are enough to make quite a few items from. Linen 50 gp ea and silk as much as 200 gp ea.

Common foodstuffs couldn't cost more than 1 cp per, could they?
alecthemad
06-10-05, 11:20 PM In the equipment section of the PHB (table 7-3 on pg 112) it lists costs for various trade goods including wheat, flout, iron, linen, silk, and saffron. You could use it as a model for some of the other items. As far as the cost for wood you could run down to the lumber yard or the home depot and get a price for some 2x4 or 2x8 planks and convert that on a $1=1gp, just increase it by a certain percentage for the rarity or desirability of the wood.
DeathMagus
06-11-05, 12:38 AM In the equipment section of the PHB (table 7-3 on pg 112) it lists costs for various trade goods including wheat, flout, iron, linen, silk, and saffron. You could use it as a model for some of the other items. As far as the cost for wood you could run down to the lumber yard or the home depot and get a price for some 2x4 or 2x8 planks and convert that on a $1=1gp, just increase it by a certain percentage for the rarity or desirability of the wood.

Gold is worth a lot more than the USD, though. You can buy most clothing in D&D for under 10 GP. You can't buy a suit for $10. An interesting idea, but someone should figure out a very precise conversion system - not me, I'm tired and want to go to bed.
Rathje
06-11-05, 01:32 AM I'd say something around 1 gp = $5 would work. It doesn't have to be perfectly exact, too. Players aren't going to whip out their calculators and make sure you aren't ripping them off...are they?
Dreaming_in_the_void
06-11-05, 09:13 AM An aside.... one ton is a whole lot of wheat. How are they going to transport all that? Teams of oxen pulling a loud and unmanuverable cart make poor travel companions when your dungeoneering.
ZenZ
06-11-05, 01:15 PM "How are they going to move it?"

My PCs are very clever (and give me tons of headaches). Two mages work together. One uses reduce item to shrink items with the extend spell feat. The other has made a bag of holding. A couple other PCs have Handy Haversacks. They also have a few strong corhorts and creatures to help them (they have a Hammer Golem which moves slow but does not tire). Another PC is 'undead' and can boost his strength.

Thye might not be able to move as much as they want but they will get a bunch of stuff down there!
prettyripples
06-11-05, 01:22 PM My PCs are very clever (and give me tons of headaches).
Yay PCs! Don't do too much to work against this, then. By all means throw monsters, set traps, etc. on the way... but if after all this thought and effort they actually make it to the town, make sure they get a decent price (i.e. make a profit) on their goods.
ZenZ
06-13-05, 08:12 PM Oh they will make a boat load of money! Wait until those fine Drow matrons see all the fine fabric and the Gray Dwarves get ahold of the tabacco, rum, and brandy.

Of course these evil creatures will pay for the good then try to kill the party and get back the money...
Ty
06-14-05, 10:33 AM One other factor you may want to take a look at is the fact that buying in bulk isn't necessarily cheaper in a medieval setting. The factor of buying in bulk assumes a number of things. Chief amongst these is an excess capacity to produce in the market. Last I checked, mass production of goods didn't come until the industrial revolution. I'm fairly positive you can chalk up any manufactured goods as not being able to be purchased in bulk.

With respect to agricultural goods, you suffer a similar problem. Keeping in mind the fact that sophisticated methods of production and harvesting are not available, you are left with something akin to the Amish harvesting wheat. In other words, you have a bunch of guys out in the field with scythes cutting the wheat, etc., and then others tying it up for transport to be made into flour. Add into the mix the lack of targeted fertilizer's, proper crop rotation techniques, and the multitude of other advances made in the agricultural sciences, and you are again left with the problems of bulk production.

Although the use of magic certainly can be used to justify an increase in agricultural production values, most often this would also justify a greater increase in the population located in such an area. Excess capacity generally will be met by increased population. Then you have the issue of demand in the marketplace. Purchasing a couple of tons of foodstuffs will increase the price paid per unit in the market, overall. Therefore, at some point, you will get a diminishing return on the investment. I can't give you specific numbers but long haul merchants in the middle ages didn't necessarily make money from bulk purchases, but rather, the locating of, acquisition of, and transportation of rare goods to a market that otherwise lacked the same goods. This is why the Europeans traveled to China for goods. They didn't bring back rice or chicken or carrots. They brought back spices and silks.

If your players are really looking to do a trade caravan to the Underdark, exotic foods such as rice and wheat would have to be milled into flours first. Then you also have the problem of spoilage. Simply put, it's much more efficient to haul lightweight, relatively rare items to the Underdark than large, bulky items that have a significant spoilage factor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZenZ 06-07-05, 11:36 PM	My PCs are going on a journey to the Underdark and thought that they would like to take trade goods along to make money and perhaps give as gifts. Of course certain items are rare in the Underdark. Grains, fabrics, wood, etc. But how to I charge them for bulk purchases? Say they want to buy a ton of wheat and two tons of rice (the PCs are masters of Shrink Item spells), how much do I chearge them? Any resources out there for items like 60 feet of raw timber or 6 bolts of fine red silk?
DeathMagus 06-07-05, 11:50 PM	My PCs are going on a journey to the Underdark and thought that they would like to take trade goods along to make money and perhaps give as gifts. Of course certain items are rare in the Underdark. Grains, fabrics, wood, etc. But how to I charge them for bulk purchases? Say they want to buy a ton of wheat and two tons of rice (the PCs are masters of Shrink Item spells), how much do I chearge them? Any resources out there for items like 60 feet of raw timber or 6 bolts of fine red silk? Add up all the individual prices, then assign an arbitrary percentile based on how much efficiency one can gain from packaging in bulk. For example, grain can be put all in one bag for a cheaper price - say 80% of the original. However, water clocks aren't really packagable in any way that is cheaper in bulk, so the price would be 100%. BTW, I'm pulling all this out of my posterior region. Please consider before using.
Airsucker 06-08-05, 01:07 AM	I agree on the 80%. That leaves room for the sellers markup and the cost of the goods. A water clock would be a bad investment, since it is fragile and a trip to the Underdark will likely be rough. Rare consumeables would also be a good trade, like truffles. Silk: a nobles outfit is 200 gp and probably has about 5 yards of silk, let's say. The seamstress will make a 30% to 40% markup, and there are other materials. That leaves us at about 100gp per 5 yards. (before machine processing, silk production was very labor intensive, one woman has to be able to find the end of the thread on the cocoon that's about a half inch long) If I think of more, I'll come back.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 06-08-05, 01:22 AM	Simplest thign to do is to roll for each by percentile dice and attribute freakishly large or small prices to market fluctuations in the game world ("There was a bumper crop of wheat in Cormyr, so a ton is only 20 gold, but there were massive forest fires in Chult, so lumber is 2000 gold for a ton,etc..."). Some things to consider: Lumber in the Underdark is really only valuable to those who value aestheticism above function, as there are large woody fungi in the Underdark that are used for things which lumber are used for above ground. Also, there are guilds both above and below ground that would not look kindly to adventurers spreading goods around like they were merchants. Indeed, the players would likely need to spend a fair ammount of coin on a mercantile liscence alone. Be sure to check out the Underdark web supplement on organizations... it might give you some ideas for encounters (After all... they'd look like merchants, so a certain group of underdark anarchists might give them a "check-up"...)
DeathMagus 06-08-05, 01:26 AM	I agree on the 80%. That leaves room for the sellers markup and the cost of the goods. A water clock would be a bad investment, since it is fragile and a trip to the Underdark will likely be rough. My main point was that some things pack together more readily, granting larger discounts. Since there's no way to bundle water clocks, they cost full price for 1000 of them. Grain, on the other hand, bundles together very well - you can just throw more and more into larger and larger packages - thus I said 80%. Something more...unit-y, such as pies or fish, I'd say about 90%.
Bringslite 06-08-05, 02:43 AM	I have worked in the retail business for some time. In an ideal market place a retailer will double his investment, or a 50% mark up. In a competitave marketplace profits will or markups can range from 20-40%. Anything less is not worth the merchant's time. This, of course, assumes that the merchant is a middle man. He is buying product from a producer. The bulk or transportability of the goods has everything to do with it's finale cost. Yet this cost is inevitably passed on to each "middle man". To answer your question, any merchant wants to double his investment but must sometimes settle for less. The cost for the bulk and difficulty to transport/ship the merchandise is always moved on to the next purchaser. So, to the PCs that is just another :pint: factor. They set the price for thier goods. Great potential for profits are there for those that are willing to take risks and move goods through dangerous areas to untapped marketplaces. :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint:
Yruc 06-08-05, 04:07 AM	Where are you going to find 2 tons of rice and 1 ton of wheat in a single town/city? It would probably take many towns and citys buying up peoples extra food they make... Unless your world has a massive farming industry. But I would think that the cost to get the supplies to the PCs would definatly raise the costs, unless there is some central storage place they can goto like a silo and just zap it down to minature size.. then may give a discout if it doesn't have to be caravan'ed in.
ZenZ 06-10-05, 10:21 PM	I understand the mark up concept. And I know how much the PCs can SELL the bulk material for in the Underdark. What I need is a price (pounds would be GREAT) for items like sugar, silk, linen, rice, wheat, barley, pine wood, cherry wood, etc... What would you charge in your campaign. Please give me some examples. Is there any source material on this? The idea I'm working with is a Boomtown much like DEADWOOD. THe PCs can make a ton of cash if they can meet with the right people, make a bargin, and then hang on to the cash. Thanks for helping!
ZenZ 06-10-05, 10:23 PM	And one more thing... The city the PCs are in is very much like a costal version of Paris. Lots of trade and plenty of raw bulk items from around the globe.
Bringslite 06-10-05, 11:10 PM	For Grains and bulk foodstuffs I would, IMC, charge 1 cp/pound. At the bulk of ton maybe 1/2 to 3/4 cp/pound. That would be a good deal for the PCs as it could always be sold pound by pound. It is always in demand somewhere. Fine hardwoods, maybe 1 cp to 1 sp per square foot, depending on the rarity. Bolts of cloth are enough to make quite a few items from. Linen 50 gp ea and silk as much as 200 gp ea. Common foodstuffs couldn't cost more than 1 cp per, could they?
alecthemad 06-10-05, 11:20 PM	In the equipment section of the PHB (table 7-3 on pg 112) it lists costs for various trade goods including wheat, flout, iron, linen, silk, and saffron. You could use it as a model for some of the other items. As far as the cost for wood you could run down to the lumber yard or the home depot and get a price for some 2x4 or 2x8 planks and convert that on a $1=1gp, just increase it by a certain percentage for the rarity or desirability of the wood.
DeathMagus 06-11-05, 12:38 AM	In the equipment section of the PHB (table 7-3 on pg 112) it lists costs for various trade goods including wheat, flout, iron, linen, silk, and saffron. You could use it as a model for some of the other items. As far as the cost for wood you could run down to the lumber yard or the home depot and get a price for some 2x4 or 2x8 planks and convert that on a $1=1gp, just increase it by a certain percentage for the rarity or desirability of the wood. Gold is worth a lot more than the USD, though. You can buy most clothing in D&D for under 10 GP. You can't buy a suit for $10. An interesting idea, but someone should figure out a very precise conversion system - not me, I'm tired and want to go to bed.
Rathje 06-11-05, 01:32 AM	I'd say something around 1 gp = $5 would work. It doesn't have to be perfectly exact, too. Players aren't going to whip out their calculators and make sure you aren't ripping them off...are they?
Dreaming_in_the_void 06-11-05, 09:13 AM	An aside.... one ton is a whole lot of wheat. How are they going to transport all that? Teams of oxen pulling a loud and unmanuverable cart make poor travel companions when your dungeoneering.
ZenZ 06-11-05, 01:15 PM	"How are they going to move it?" My PCs are very clever (and give me tons of headaches). Two mages work together. One uses reduce item to shrink items with the extend spell feat. The other has made a bag of holding. A couple other PCs have Handy Haversacks. They also have a few strong corhorts and creatures to help them (they have a Hammer Golem which moves slow but does not tire). Another PC is 'undead' and can boost his strength. Thye might not be able to move as much as they want but they will get a bunch of stuff down there!
prettyripples 06-11-05, 01:22 PM	My PCs are very clever (and give me tons of headaches). Yay PCs! Don't do too much to work against this, then. By all means throw monsters, set traps, etc. on the way... but if after all this thought and effort they actually make it to the town, make sure they get a decent price (i.e. make a profit) on their goods.
ZenZ 06-13-05, 08:12 PM	Oh they will make a boat load of money! Wait until those fine Drow matrons see all the fine fabric and the Gray Dwarves get ahold of the tabacco, rum, and brandy. Of course these evil creatures will pay for the good then try to kill the party and get back the money...
Ty 06-14-05, 10:33 AM	One other factor you may want to take a look at is the fact that buying in bulk isn't necessarily cheaper in a medieval setting. The factor of buying in bulk assumes a number of things. Chief amongst these is an excess capacity to produce in the market. Last I checked, mass production of goods didn't come until the industrial revolution. I'm fairly positive you can chalk up any manufactured goods as not being able to be purchased in bulk. With respect to agricultural goods, you suffer a similar problem. Keeping in mind the fact that sophisticated methods of production and harvesting are not available, you are left with something akin to the Amish harvesting wheat. In other words, you have a bunch of guys out in the field with scythes cutting the wheat, etc., and then others tying it up for transport to be made into flour. Add into the mix the lack of targeted fertilizer's, proper crop rotation techniques, and the multitude of other advances made in the agricultural sciences, and you are again left with the problems of bulk production. Although the use of magic certainly can be used to justify an increase in agricultural production values, most often this would also justify a greater increase in the population located in such an area. Excess capacity generally will be met by increased population. Then you have the issue of demand in the marketplace. Purchasing a couple of tons of foodstuffs will increase the price paid per unit in the market, overall. Therefore, at some point, you will get a diminishing return on the investment. I can't give you specific numbers but long haul merchants in the middle ages didn't necessarily make money from bulk purchases, but rather, the locating of, acquisition of, and transportation of rare goods to a market that otherwise lacked the same goods. This is why the Europeans traveled to China for goods. They didn't bring back rice or chicken or carrots. They brought back spices and silks. If your players are really looking to do a trade caravan to the Underdark, exotic foods such as rice and wheat would have to be milled into flours first. Then you also have the problem of spoilage. Simply put, it's much more efficient to haul lightweight, relatively rare items to the Underdark than large, bulky items that have a significant spoilage factor.