Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rymoore 08-09-06, 10:35 AM	Players always want to buy and sell magic items. They'd rather sell 5 +1 swords that they just found so they can use the money to buy a +2 Flaming Greatsword. I'm surprised this isn't covered more in published material, but I've yet to see a good "magic store" system. I'd like to know how other DMS handle this. Do you sell magic items at the DMG price? What system do you use for players to sell magic items? How do you determine what magic items are available for sale? Do you allow an item to be upgraded? (IE Pay the difference between a +2 sword and a +3 sword rather than making them buy a +3 sword outright.) The system I've been using is that players buy items at DMG price. They can sell them 50% the DMG price. They are allowed to "upgrade" items by paying the difference. I have final approval approal over all item purchases. It hasn't seemed to unbalance my campaign so far but I'm worried that I'm letting them have too much magic or cheaping the value of magic items. As a side note, is there a recomended level that certain items should be available? For example, at what level shoudl I allow my players to find/buy +4 weapons instead of +3? Thanks Ryan
Stumm_Dolch 08-09-06, 10:50 AM	My merchants buy typically at 1/3 - 1/2 market value. Depending on the item, and weather the merchant believes it to be stolen, or atleast suspicious. After i've decided which its gonna be then the selling PC makes a diplomacy, bluff, intimidate check agains the merchant's appraise check with synergy for diplomacy/sense motive. If either wins by 5 or more the price swings 10% their way, 10 or more and it's 20%... keeping in mind a merchants appraise check (if successfull) will help determine a maximum buying price he's willing to pay for something. As far as buying, It's a little tricky. you probably don't want your players able to get their hands easilly on just anything they can afford so perhaps stock shops with gear you think would be beneficial to their next encounter series and give them the opportunity to take advantage of it... or not. Keep in mind that there are going to be general magic items that are more common than others. (+1 weapons, potions, and scrolls come to mind) but that PC looking for the +2 Keen Flaming Falchion might have to special order it.
Masterfulks 08-09-06, 10:51 AM	Players always want to buy and sell magic items. They'd rather sell 5 +1 swords that they just found so they can use the money to buy a +2 Flaming Greatsword. I'm surprised this isn't covered more in published material, but I've yet to see a good "magic store" system. I'd like to know how other DMS handle this. Do you sell magic items at the DMG price? What system do you use for players to sell magic items? How do you determine what magic items are available for sale? Do you allow an item to be upgraded? (IE Pay the difference between a +2 sword and a +3 sword rather than making them buy a +3 sword outright.) The system I've been using is that players buy items at DMG price. They can sell them 50% the DMG price. They are allowed to "upgrade" items by paying the difference. I have final approval approal over all item purchases. It hasn't seemed to unbalance my campaign so far but I'm worried that I'm letting them have too much magic or cheaping the value of magic items. As a side note, is there a recomended level that certain items should be available? For example, at what level shoudl I allow my players to find/buy +4 weapons instead of +3? Thanks Ryan For what items are available I go by the town's gold piece limit, then go from there. Vanilla type weapons with just +1, +2 or +3 are there for the common ones. Anything odd or weird can be made, but the players might have to wait a little bit. I tend to let my players sell items at 75% once they've established a relationship with a seller. The DMG states that magic items are sold at 50%, but to me if you're going back to the same place the more often you sell the better deals he's going to make you. If they want a weapon upgraded I'll let them find someone to add on the difference. I think if you watch the average gold piece value per character level the problem really solves itself. I like for gold to have a real value in my games. If you customize the treasure to make sure that they can use everything then gold means little. I want them to haggle over price, and borrow from each other to be able to buy their cool new item.
Thelandrach 08-09-06, 10:56 AM	"The system I've been using is that players buy items at DMG price. They can sell them 50% the DMG price. They are allowed to "upgrade" items by paying the difference. I have final approval approal over all item purchases." That's what's stated in the books, so you're on the right track. Take a look at the city building system in the DMG. It lists how much money an individual shopkeeper has available to buy stuff from the PCs. So, if a town says a shopkeeper has 2,000 gp, the PC's can probably buy +1 items and most potions and scrolls. If they want to upgrade their +1 weapon to +3, they're going to need a much larger town. "Sorry, sir, we don't get that here. You'll need to go to Waterdeep for that." The campaign I just finished started in a fairly small town that had resources up to +1 stuff. The party could order stuff from Waterdeep, but it would take a week or two for it to get there. My usual rule of thumb is that they should get +1 more on weapons and armor every four levels. So, +1 stuff by 4th level, +2 stuff by 8th level. To figure out if you've given out too much, total the value of a given PC's stuff (book price, not sale price). Use half-value for expendable items like potions and scrolls or sellable-only items like jewelry or artwork, full value for permanent magic items and coins. Check the chart in the DMG on PC wealth and see how they stack up. Another rule of thumb for my campaign is that if a PC takes the feats & skills and spends the time, money and experience to make a magic item, they can have it, no questions asked. If they're high enough level for that but they're not going to make it themselves, it should still be available, but it will take more time, extra money, or prying it from the cold, dead fingers of an Orc chieftan to get it.
ImperialScout 08-09-06, 11:04 AM	I struggle with this too. One one hand, I abhor the idea of a "magic shop". I hate the verythought of a shop full of powerful items for sale. It makes writing adventures pointless. Why drop loot for your party if they're just going to pawn it all off. Part of it also becomes character necessity. If a party owns all +2 weapons, and a spare +1 here and there, why are they picking up five more +1 weapons? If they think they're going to "trade up" to a +3 that way, they've got another thing coming. I give out the +3s when i feel the group is ready for them. A great solution to this problem is the Weapons of Legacy book. You can have the character start out with somehting that seems minor, then reveal new poers instead of dropping new loot. Some characters may grab every bit of magic possible thinking it directly equates to cash, like a giant gem or something. Remove this idea by either providing plenty of cash and/or making it clear that "magic shops" do not exist. Sucha shop would attract every thief, mage or brigand in the area. It'd be robbed and plundered in a heartbeat.
AntiDjinn 08-09-06, 11:22 AM	The DMG is not a catalog; just because the PCs know of an item and have the cash does not mean they can walk into magemart and order or purchase one. There needs to be such an item available or they need to find a caster with the right spells/powers and feats to make it. As for buying and selling of items, my group generally handles them by the following: Consignment shops. This is a fairly common way to sell. If you have an item a merchant will rarely pay you outright for it; he may not have the cash on hand, won't want so much of his assets tied up in an item that may never sell, and doesn't want to be out the cash if the Nystul's Magic Aura fades the following day. Instead he will agree to display the item, and answer questions about it. If it sells then the merchant collects a commission and holds the rest for the seller. Brokers: These guys are not shopkeepers, they are dealmakers. A broker has extensive contacts and may either act as an arranger bringing buyer and seller together or as a middleman who actually procures the item and delivers it to the buyer. If you want to sell an item you simply make it known to the right broker, then you hold onto it; if he finds a buyer he will be in touch. Makers: If you want to buy an item that is not available a caster is your only option. Such craftsmen can discuss the types of items they are capable of making. They don't have shelves of ready-made items; why should they tie up the gold and XP in an item that may not have a buyer when they can wait for a commission up front? You pay, you supply any needed materials, and you wait. Auction houses: Item selling is an event rather than a shop. Auctions are held monthly in the largest cites and this is one way to sell a very expensive item. This cuts down on the security risk because the item is only on public display for a brief period. Sellers must put up a one time bond against fraud. The auction house charges a percentage and how much the seller gets is not dependent on the DMG price, but on how hot the bidding is for that item. Items that do not receive a single bid are returned to the seller with a nominal fee.
Puca 08-09-06, 11:56 AM	Heres (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=671395 ) a fun little fight about whether or not magic-item shops serve a legitimate purpose. The system I've been using is that players buy items at DMG price. They can sell them 50% the DMG price. They are allowed to "upgrade" items by paying the difference. I have final approval approal over all item purchases. I believe you have pretty much described the stock way to do it. This is supported by the RAW. Ive seen far more complex methods: Had a DM who had us RP the purchase and sale of almost everything. He had an initial reaction check with merchants. This resulting in an initial offer of 35% - 65% of listed value for items sold and 85% - 115% of listed price for items purchased. Beating the merchant in a diplomacy check resulted in moving the price 5% in your favor. Loosing twice moved the price 5% in the merchants favor. Winning three times in a row ended the negotiation. It also dropped your initial reaction check on a future purchase. In addition, vendors would routinely lie by 1 or more charges for items like wands and sometimes use Magic Aura to sell you something fake. Fun, but slow. As a side note, is there a recomended level that certain items should be available? For example, at what level shoudl I allow my players to find/buy +4 weapons instead of +3? There are recommendations, I believe in the section on starting characters above level one, that base items on a percentage of total wealth. I dont think it should be set in stone for working characters, but you should definitely keep it in mind. I cant recall if this is actually written down, or such an old house rule that I think it is, but we use caster-level to limit items. So, since a +4 sword requires a caster-level of 12, the party would have to average 12th level for any +4 swords to be available. (Although, 32,000 for a single item is pretty dang high without that limit. 16,000 for +4 armor isnt really too bad though for a level 12 character.) It hasn't seemed to unbalance my campaign so far but I'm worried that I'm letting them have too much magic or cheaping the value of magic items.If it hasnt upset anything so far, then I dont see you have anything to worry about.
rymoore 08-09-06, 12:05 PM	I agree that the DMG should not be a shopping list. Here's a situation that arose in a recent session though. The players found a longsword +2 Shocking Burst (A +4 weapon!) No one wanted it. The fighter and paladin are both specialized in two hand weapons and the only other fighter-type is a mind blade. The players just wanted to sell it. Should I have replaced the item with a greatsword? I don't think tailoring the magic treasure to the party is a good idea, but on the other hand I'm left with the problem of the players wanting to sell every item they find so they can just upgrade the ones they have. Where is the PC-wealth-by-level table in the DMG? For some reason I can't seem to locate it. I really like the idea of an "Magic Item Broker" as opposed to a "magic shop." I'll have to use that in my game. Ryan
Masterfulks 08-09-06, 01:04 PM	The NPC class's are about pg 113 or so of the DMG with equipment and cash. I think shops that sell magic items have to exist in a world where people are finding them on their adventures. The gold piece limit puts these shops in big cities and not just your little starter town. I'd expect such a shop to have a golem, protections, and to not display the extremely valuable weapons out in the open. In my games I have a high level wizard (and his apprentices) that run a chain of magic shops. He'll make you almost anything if you have the cash. (except for the arrow of wizardslaying that somebody asked for....). I guess it depends on the magic level of your campaign. I think if you're willing to sell something that will make someone else 1000's of gold pieces that a market exists. Then again I like a little bit of an economy in my games. I hate only having to rely on the DM to get an item that you want. I had one DM that pretty much refused to put in a longsword in the game. He wanted some of us to use other weapons and felt that we used it too much. That kind of attitude kind of pisses me off. I think the characters should be able to pick the weapons they want. Especially if they are common, and expect to be able to get a better one crafted in the future. At least in your average magic DnD game.
Tazi Swiftblade 08-09-06, 01:38 PM	Brokers: These guys are not shopkeepers, they are dealmakers. A broker has extensive contacts and may either act as an arranger bringing buyer and seller together or as a middleman who actually procures the item and delivers it to the buyer. If you want to sell an item you simply make it known to the right broker, then you hold onto it; if he finds a buyer he will be in touch. Auction houses: Item selling is an event rather than a shop. Auctions are held monthly in the largest cites and this is one way to sell a very expensive item. This cuts down on the security risk because the item is only on public display for a brief period. Sellers must put up a one time bond against fraud. The auction house charges a percentage and how much the seller gets is not dependent on the DMG price, but on how hot the bidding is for that item. Items that do not receive a single bid are returned to the seller with a nominal fee. These are both excellent ideas. I think they're both much more realistic than the idea of including "magic shops" in the game. Hope you don't mind me stealing them both!
Dux_is_me 08-09-06, 03:51 PM	Have you ever played Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles (for the Nintendo Gamecube)? I had thought about basing what magic items they can create on what monsters they kill and what body parts they take. For example, they can use a displacer beast's hide to make a cloak of displacement. No magic shops, just item designers & makers. Dunno if it can work as a system.
necrom99 08-09-06, 03:57 PM	Have you ever played Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles (for the Nintendo Gamecube)? I had thought about basing what magic items they can create on what monsters they kill and what body parts they take. For example, they can use a displacer beast's hide to make a cloak of displacement. No magic shops, just item designers & makers. Dunno if it can work as a system. I only use this system as part of a house rule......Anyone who wants to make a magic item must have component parts....except in the case of scrolls or potions And I never have magic shops....people will buy magic items at 1/2 value and thats that. however you can go to a magic shop or guild that will sell you components to make them.
AntiDjinn 08-09-06, 05:44 PM	Hope you don't mind me stealing them both! Sure, steal away! It is not like my group was the first to come up with these ideas. Auction houses are a staple of MMORPGs after all. If the DM feels like getting into it your game could even have roleplayed voice auctions instead of silent sealed bid auctions. Heck, if the players want to go all out they could have shills bid on their own items to drive the price up -- they risk eating this cost themselves of course and may wind up buying their own goods if they get too greedy.For high end items it will probably all be done on paper because a given buyer may not want everyone to know what he is bidding on. Rich mages will probably still send an agent to bid for them at auction anyway. The main advantage both brokers and auctions would add is security. The item is not sitting on a shelf tempting burglars and shoplifters. Instead they are safely locked away until the sale is about to take place. Potential buyers who wish to inspect an item at an auction house would either make an appointment or stop by during carefully monitored display hours. In both cases bonds plus reputation of the seller would be the buyer's insurance against fraud.
Masterfulks 08-09-06, 05:58 PM	I only use this system as part of a house rule......Anyone who wants to make a magic item must have component parts....except in the case of scrolls or potions And I never have magic shops....people will buy magic items at 1/2 value and thats that. however you can go to a magic shop or guild that will sell you components to make them. If you never have magic shops how can they buy the components from a magic shop? I don't get why there's a anti-magic shop crowd. It would seem to me in a place where magic items can be made, that there would be a market for them. A market would mean that people want to buy them. People wanting to buy/sell would lead to a shop of some kind in order to maximize bidness.
aotrscommander 08-09-06, 05:59 PM	Generally, in our groups we do as you do; but at DMG prcies and sell at half value; nobody's that bothered about going into too much detail. However, most of our campaign worlds are high-magic availability. Even so, stuff outside the vanilla +items is less common, and I (or whoever is DMing at the time) determine whether it is availble or not (usually I have a metropolis in which almost anything is available - but even then the player might not be able to find that Cloak of the Bat they've been nagging me about!) My next campaign world, though, will have a lower magical item availbility, so it will be much more difficult for the PCs to trade magic items without making a trip escpecially for that purpose. In the event they can find somewhere, I'll probably use the same rules though; it's just simpler.
nhs_boy 08-09-06, 07:35 PM	Don't make rules automatically favour magic item merchants too much, or your players might decide to set up shop! I made this mistake, and my players decided that they were going to fund their later adventures by spending their latest load of loot on stock-in-trade and traveling around as merchants! It was a fun extended adventure / side-campaign, but I'm glad that they stopped after a while... I'd say that the price you should get for selling an item should vary depending on where you're selling it: If you're offloading at a small village, the chances of anyone there actually wanting the items you're selling for themselves are pretty slim, and it's probable that they will instead be buying your item speculatively (and at a low price) If you're in a huge city, however, then it can generally be assumed that you can find someone who actually wants your Rusty Hubcap of Protection From Cholera +5 and so will pay full price for it. For speed, this would be best abstracted by taking item price vs. city-gold-amount and applying the numerical factor of your choice to get the % of item-gold-value paid (whatever works for your campaign balance). You might want to add a multiplier / divisor to city-gold-amount for especially useful items (healing potions, <whatever> +1) / especially unusual items (Apparatus of Kwalish , Ring of Craft: Origami +9 , etc )
Burgundy Lotus 08-09-06, 07:39 PM	WE go by the buy at DMG or 'blue book' value sell for half if it's cheap (say 2,000gp or less) or sell it at the adventurers guild either by the notice board or the occasional auction.
Masterfulks 08-09-06, 08:33 PM	Don't make rules automatically favour magic item merchants too much, or your players might decide to set up shop! I made this mistake, and my players decided that they were going to fund their later adventures by spending their latest load of loot on stock-in-trade and traveling around as merchants! It was a fun extended adventure / side-campaign, but I'm glad that they stopped after a while... I'd say that the price you should get for selling an item should vary depending on where you're selling it: If you're offloading at a small village, the chances of anyone there actually wanting the items you're selling for themselves are pretty slim, and it's probable that they will instead be buying your item speculatively (and at a low price) If you're in a huge city, however, then it can generally be assumed that you can find someone who actually wants your Rusty Hubcap of Protection From Cholera +5 and so will pay full price for it. For speed, this would be best abstracted by taking item price vs. city-gold-amount and applying the numerical factor of your choice to get the % of item-gold-value paid (whatever works for your campaign balance). You might want to add a multiplier / divisor to city-gold-amount for especially useful items (healing potions, <whatever> +1) / especially unusual items (Apparatus of Kwalish , Ring of Craft: Origami +9 , etc ) :) In our game we all just hit 11th level and were discussing setting up a little shop. We've been trying to build up a little village around our keep anyway. We have to figure out how we're going to handle it. Although we'll probably have to set up in a much larger city to really sell anything. I think it adds some flavor to the game to have a little side business. It can add in some plot lines of other merchants trying to come after you for cutting in their business or the like. I could see how a dm would not want to have the game dragged down by such a thing, but I think there's opportunity to do some extra roleplaying.
Cornbread 08-10-06, 05:50 PM	Players always want to buy and sell magic items. They'd rather sell 5 +1 swords that they just found so they can use the money to buy a +2 Flaming Greatsword. Of course they would. Part of this game is killing monsters and taking their stuff. If the treasure is of absolutely no use to the party, then it is the same as getting no treasure at all. There is no satisfaction in that regard, and therefore getting the treasure is not fun. In fact, I would say there is probably a larger effect than the "loss of fun", because they know their reward is right there in front of them but they will never be able to put it to use. Sounds frustrating to me. Do you sell magic items at the DMG price? Yes What system do you use for players to sell magic items? How do you determine what magic items are available for sale? Do you allow an item to be upgraded? (IE Pay the difference between a +2 sword and a +3 sword rather than making them buy a +3 sword outright.) 50% of the book value (Diplomacy can have a 10% effect on this as per CV). I randomly roll for magic items as shown in the DMG to determine what is for sale, and use all of the rules and restrictions in the "city building" section for values, etc. This is what is "on the market" at any time. I update the list based on in game time spent, as some things are bought and others are brought to the market. Magic shops are assumed to stock consumables and low-cost/high-demand items (like +1 weapons and armors, cloaks of resistance, etc.) and provide everything else on consignment because it seems to make the most sense. The players can also order things from crafters or make their own. Cash vs. XP/feats is their choice, really. I allow upgrades. It won't unbalance your game because that is the system the rules were designed for. As long as you give your NPCs gear as per the book they will have plenty of power to fight back. It will significantly reduce your balancing efforts to leave the system as it was designed. You won't cheapen the value of the items, either. Characters all have resources, like XP, spells per day, HP...one of those is wealth. Assuming they have a limited amount of wealth to spend through their lifetime (as per the DMG chart), why not allow the players to control how they want to spend it? If your players really want magic items then getting them must be enjoyable for them, so why not let them? [quote=rymoore]As a side note, is there a recomended level that certain items should be available? For example, at what level shoudl I allow my players to find/buy +4 weapons instead of +3? Let your players decide and just track their accumulated wealth and use the provided table in the DMG. If a character wants to splurge 3 levels early on a +4 weapon they will use most of their cash - but that is a choice they apparently want to make, so why not? Let the challenges in the game be the bad guys and the story, not arbitrary DM preferences on obtaining their gear.