Buying Items, Need Help Revising [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buying Items, Need Help Revising [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
shadowfox628
08-09-05, 02:52 AM Alright, despite.... Recent and somewhat recent topics revolving around me, this one is a "help me improve this because I messed up big time" threads. If you look at my sig, it shows an accurate example of how my PC's buy items. Needless to say, I made the mistake of making the rich early, and they havn't gotten much in ther way of money since their second load of treasure (really, second).

Notice: Unlike my other topics, I'm open to critisism (sp?). Unfortunately, I take a lot of things as insults and/or seriously. I'll try not to go into a big ran of how I'm not appreciated.

Notice 2: I DONT play RAW. Instead, I use a mix of the real rules and rules of my own that replace real rules, and (if not already added into the mix, for I am not one good with lingo) House Rules. You have been warned.

What I do: You may or may not have seen my Signature already, but it shows an accurate, but not real, example of what happens when my PC's want to buy something. Unfortunately, they don't always roll a 3 when shopping for a Short Sword, and, in a turn of event, finding the only weapons shop in the area that has rediculous prices. As an add-on to the unfotunate, they roll high (19 and 20 high), and that's not good.

My PC's know how it works. So they know the higher they roll, the less it costs. Here's another real (but I can;t remember it to the last detail) example of "Shop Rolling Gone Bad:"

Xilix (PC): "I'm looking for scrolls for my wizard"
DM (Me): "Ok, roll a d20."
*Insert typing for AIM's die rolling program*
AIM: "Xilix (not giving out his real AIM Screen Name) rolld 1 20 sided die: 19."
DM: ( :eek: ) "What do you want to buy?"
Xilix: "All spells levels 2-4."
DM: ".... 100 PP."
-----------------------------------
That is the unfortunate outcome of the way I make my PC's buy. And, to be serious, he DID roll that. For the SAME situation. Now, I can name 2 problems with what I did wrong with the example:
1) I UNDERPRICED all those spells, although he did find them cheap.
2) I SHOULDN'T have allowed him to buy all those spells.

What I Need Help With: I need another way of buying while still making it depend on the roll of a single d20. Should they search for items seperately, avoiding what Xilix did? or should I ask them what they want to buy BEFORE they roll, therefore avoiding the PC exploiting the DM's mistake? Or do I need something different?

Notice 3: Once again, I DONT play RAW. If you tell me to refer to the rulebook, or the rules say such-and-such.... you're an idiot. This is the second time I've posted that I don't play rule-by-rule in the book (RAW). I put what rules I want into effect, and I change the rest. (Sub-Notice: No need to comment on me making my own rules).

Notice 4: Since I've already taken shots at myself, I really don't care what you do. As long as it helps.
Rathje
08-09-05, 03:07 AM I think you should explain to your players that the previous way left the door open to a lot of abuse. If they're mature, they'll understand. They could be disappointed, but also tell them that it'll take away from the challenge and, as a result, the entertainment of the game. If they refuse to abide by the changes, they can find a new DM. You're playing online; it's not hard to find a group online.

My personal suggestion is that you write up a list of the stock for a store. If you want dice-rolling, have them roll to see if an item is in stock. If they're looking for something specific, another roll could tell you if they can order it, but it could cost extra.
shadowfox628
08-09-05, 03:12 AM All a good idea, but I'm not a planner. I've tried that "prepare ahead of time" thing, and, to be serious, I found out I was always unprepared. Now, I just make it up on the fly.

But, to be serious, coming up with stock shouldn't be too hard. The campain takes place mainly withing one country out of 6, 4 of which they've been in. I'm still open for ideas. And, seriously, that is a good idea. I still want to leave it up to chance.
Rallaster
08-09-05, 03:20 AM All a good idea, but I'm not a planner. I've tried that "prepare ahead of time" thing, and, to be serious, I found out I was always unprepared. Now, I just make it up on the fly.Ah, so instead of planning things ahead of time and being somewhat unprepared, you think it's a better choice to go completely unprepared?

I strongly advise you to prepare ahead of time. This helps the plot stay intact as well as making things seem reasonable. Especially if you're a new DM.
Rathje
08-09-05, 03:23 AM Make a few generic stock tables, then. Make some for each type of store.

Player: Alright, I walk into the blacksmith's shop and walk up to the man at the counter. "Pardon me, sir. Might I be able to see your wares?"

DM: *Rolls 1d20 (6). Refers to table. Result is Simple, One-Handed Weapons. Rolls additional 1d20 (3) to determine if there are any magical, there aren't* "I've a large amount of shortspears available, plus some maces. Nothing fancy, mind you."

Was that so hard? It's a one-time work-load for everything you need.
shadowfox628
08-09-05, 03:32 AM I know what goes on, I remember what happens, and my PC's a truthful and trustworthy. My PC's say that I'm pretty good when I'm on the fly. The first time I did it, they didn't know!

But, seriously, I don't have to lug around notes, or forget an important book. I even make up encounters! But a little planning is done ahead of time. Basically, it's what I want to happen. Not what WILL happen, but what I want. My plans have been foiled more than once, and I can come up with something new easily.
shadowfox628
08-09-05, 03:36 AM True. Very true. But blacksmiths may realize they'll make more money when they sell these weapons, and then they'll lower stocks of those weapons. Hm..... I never was good at making up my mind.
DMDaddy
08-09-05, 03:39 AM When I DMd 2nd ed. I was very home brewed. Players in such situations love the chance of the roll. And, in many ways I understand exactly what you mean, Maybe.

I gave all items a percentage chance to be in stock based on town size and party level. Anything over +2 was a rare item. Only a 10% chance of being in stock. Most normal items had a 33% chance of being in stock.

Also, once I realized that I overpowered my PCs, I changed the campaign setting. Magic items were being stolen left and right. The PCs had to uncover the source behind the thefts. This made buy items very difficult and many monsters were stealing from the PCs and trying to destroy them and their items. Minions from hell were on the loose with a plan to destroy all magic items to help with their world conquest. Or something like that. I can't remember. The bottom line was that I found a way to reverse my problem of overpowering the PCs.

I still allowed them to find magic items and often asked them what they would like to find or earn in battle.

Good luck.
shadowfox628
08-09-05, 03:43 PM Hm..... You know what, I just got an idea (one of you might have mentioned it already, or said something very similar, so, if that is the case, sorry):
Use the prices in the book as a basis. That will be the price if they land on 10. For every number higher than 10, it will go down in price by X amount of gold. Every number less than 10 the price will rise X pieces of gold. Now, on top of that, they have to tell me specifically what they're looking for BEFORE they roll, and no re-rolls (buy or leave the store). This will prevent them from taking advantage of high rolls. Now, magical, uncommon, and special items will have a chance of being in stock. If not, they'll have to order (if they can find a place to order) it, and spend that extra money, or they can wait for the (possibly) unlikely chance of finding it. If they want a custom item (like they want an engraving on a sword, or buy a quarter staff with fancy designs), they'll have to pay the rolled price, plus extra for it being custom, and (again, possibly) even more to have it shipped. Anything shipped will take time. A ything made from scratch will take less time than being shipped. Engravings will take less time than something being made from scratch.

So, what do you think? Any mistakes? Loopholes?
rbrt_Spade
08-09-05, 03:58 PM Make a few generic stock tables, then. Make some for each type of store.

Player: Alright, I walk into the blacksmith's shop and walk up to the man at the counter. "Pardon me, sir. Might I be able to see your wares?"

DM: *Rolls 1d20 (6). Refers to table. Result is Simple, One-Handed Weapons. Rolls additional 1d20 (3) to determine if there are any magical, there aren't* "I've a large amount of shortspears available, plus some maces. Nothing fancy, mind you."

Was that so hard? It's a one-time work-load for everything you need.

some dms do this from the treasure tables in the dmg for stock and make up thier own tables for say food
rbrt_Spade
08-09-05, 04:00 PM sounds like a good idea fox-i see no loopholes
but for the custom-are you going to choose the designs of everything in stock in towns?
shadowfox628
08-10-05, 01:55 AM For custom: No.... Chances highly are (99.99999999999999999999999%) they won't get a custom weapon. They're smart enough to know that an engraving on a weapon offers no pros to a weapon while used in combat (unlike a certain young Ocelot....). Hm.... I have come up with a fool proof system that fits my needs!

Notcie to all: Thank you very much. No, seriously. Thanks.
Didge
08-10-05, 02:18 AM Use the prices in the book as a basis. That will be the price if they land on 10. For every number higher than 10, it will go down in price by X amount of gold. Every number less than 10 the price will rise X pieces of gold. Now, on top of that, they have to tell me specifically what they're looking for BEFORE they roll, and no re-rolls (buy or leave the store). This will prevent them from taking advantage of high rolls.

Not likely. Imagine if you will what happens when they go in and try to buy a dagger. Oh look, the daggers in this store are not only free (If they roll a 12 or higher) but do they suddenly get cash back? Is this because you've found the inept clerk who hands you the wrong amount of change?

What if, now that the price has been set for daggers, they buy every single one in the store. Does the store now go bankrupt because Jimmy rolled high?

Anything made from scratch will take less time than being shipped.

Depends on where you're ordering it from and the skill of a crafter either in the town or nearby. Look at the Craft skill and you'll see that it doesn't take that long to craft something. The distance should play a factor, but if it's beyond a certain point it is equal to or faster to have someone craft the item there (assuming materials are available).
shadowfox628
08-10-05, 03:33 PM Really, I don't go deep into detail, I don't want to get specific. Believe me, they don't want to buy daggers. They each have one (I forced one to keep his dagger, for it was his only silver weapon.... hint-hint), and they don't want more. I just need something that has the rolling of a d20, easy to do, simple, and something I don't have to think about much. And, to ease your pain, they won't be getting daggers any time soon, because they don't use them in the first place.
DMDaddy
08-10-05, 04:39 PM Ok, assuming that you are using 3.5 and want a simple d20 system.

1. Create a system that determines availability.
19-20 small town has 20% to have any item over 10,000 gp.
17-20 medium town has 40% to have any item over 10,000 gp.
15-20 rich medium town has 50% But item is over 20,000 gp.

Variables: +/-2 for every variable that may affect the above.
Small town is being raided by bandits on a continual basis may add +2 to the above.
Likewise a character that has good standing with a merchant may receive +2 on his roll and the merchant has a special back stock of items that he doesn't usually show.

2. Create pricing system. Nothing should be more than 60% off. And, this should be based on the characters actions with the merchant.
20 60% off
18-19 50% off
17 40% off
15-16 30% off
12-14 20% off
10-11 10% off
8-9 add 20%
6-7 add 30%
1-5 add 40%

Add +/-2 for every variable you can think off. Character is mean to other customers in shop (-4). Character catches a thief or helps shop owner (+2).
Town is being heavily taxed by the government (-5).

3. Once the price is set, make a haggle system that can allow the merchant to come down on price. Maybe a simple opposed d20 roll with modifiers.
shadowfox628
08-10-05, 11:08 PM Hm, interesting.... I like it. (Notice: I play 3.o, due to lack of funds, laziness, and bad handeling of money). Really, I like it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shadowfox628 08-09-05, 02:52 AM	Alright, despite.... Recent and somewhat recent topics revolving around me, this one is a "help me improve this because I messed up big time" threads. If you look at my sig, it shows an accurate example of how my PC's buy items. Needless to say, I made the mistake of making the rich early, and they havn't gotten much in ther way of money since their second load of treasure (really, second). Notice: Unlike my other topics, I'm open to critisism (sp?). Unfortunately, I take a lot of things as insults and/or seriously. I'll try not to go into a big ran of how I'm not appreciated. Notice 2: I DONT play RAW. Instead, I use a mix of the real rules and rules of my own that replace real rules, and (if not already added into the mix, for I am not one good with lingo) House Rules. You have been warned. What I do: You may or may not have seen my Signature already, but it shows an accurate, but not real, example of what happens when my PC's want to buy something. Unfortunately, they don't always roll a 3 when shopping for a Short Sword, and, in a turn of event, finding the only weapons shop in the area that has rediculous prices. As an add-on to the unfotunate, they roll high (19 and 20 high), and that's not good. My PC's know how it works. So they know the higher they roll, the less it costs. Here's another real (but I can;t remember it to the last detail) example of "Shop Rolling Gone Bad:" Xilix (PC): "I'm looking for scrolls for my wizard" DM (Me): "Ok, roll a d20." Insert typing for AIM's die rolling program AIM: "Xilix (not giving out his real AIM Screen Name) rolld 1 20 sided die: 19." DM: ( :eek: ) "What do you want to buy?" Xilix: "All spells levels 2-4." DM: ".... 100 PP." ----------------------------------- That is the unfortunate outcome of the way I make my PC's buy. And, to be serious, he DID roll that. For the SAME situation. Now, I can name 2 problems with what I did wrong with the example: 1) I UNDERPRICED all those spells, although he did find them cheap. 2) I SHOULDN'T have allowed him to buy all those spells. What I Need Help With: I need another way of buying while still making it depend on the roll of a single d20. Should they search for items seperately, avoiding what Xilix did? or should I ask them what they want to buy BEFORE they roll, therefore avoiding the PC exploiting the DM's mistake? Or do I need something different? Notice 3: Once again, I DONT play RAW. If you tell me to refer to the rulebook, or the rules say such-and-such.... you're an idiot. This is the second time I've posted that I don't play rule-by-rule in the book (RAW). I put what rules I want into effect, and I change the rest. (Sub-Notice: No need to comment on me making my own rules). Notice 4: Since I've already taken shots at myself, I really don't care what you do. As long as it helps.
Rathje 08-09-05, 03:07 AM	I think you should explain to your players that the previous way left the door open to a lot of abuse. If they're mature, they'll understand. They could be disappointed, but also tell them that it'll take away from the challenge and, as a result, the entertainment of the game. If they refuse to abide by the changes, they can find a new DM. You're playing online; it's not hard to find a group online. My personal suggestion is that you write up a list of the stock for a store. If you want dice-rolling, have them roll to see if an item is in stock. If they're looking for something specific, another roll could tell you if they can order it, but it could cost extra.
shadowfox628 08-09-05, 03:12 AM	All a good idea, but I'm not a planner. I've tried that "prepare ahead of time" thing, and, to be serious, I found out I was always unprepared. Now, I just make it up on the fly. But, to be serious, coming up with stock shouldn't be too hard. The campain takes place mainly withing one country out of 6, 4 of which they've been in. I'm still open for ideas. And, seriously, that is a good idea. I still want to leave it up to chance.
Rallaster 08-09-05, 03:20 AM	All a good idea, but I'm not a planner. I've tried that "prepare ahead of time" thing, and, to be serious, I found out I was always unprepared. Now, I just make it up on the fly.Ah, so instead of planning things ahead of time and being somewhat unprepared, you think it's a better choice to go completely unprepared? I strongly advise you to prepare ahead of time. This helps the plot stay intact as well as making things seem reasonable. Especially if you're a new DM.
Rathje 08-09-05, 03:23 AM	Make a few generic stock tables, then. Make some for each type of store. Player: Alright, I walk into the blacksmith's shop and walk up to the man at the counter. "Pardon me, sir. Might I be able to see your wares?" DM: Rolls 1d20 (6). Refers to table. Result is Simple, One-Handed Weapons. Rolls additional 1d20 (3) to determine if there are any magical, there aren't "I've a large amount of shortspears available, plus some maces. Nothing fancy, mind you." Was that so hard? It's a one-time work-load for everything you need.
shadowfox628 08-09-05, 03:32 AM	I know what goes on, I remember what happens, and my PC's a truthful and trustworthy. My PC's say that I'm pretty good when I'm on the fly. The first time I did it, they didn't know! But, seriously, I don't have to lug around notes, or forget an important book. I even make up encounters! But a little planning is done ahead of time. Basically, it's what I want to happen. Not what WILL happen, but what I want. My plans have been foiled more than once, and I can come up with something new easily.
shadowfox628 08-09-05, 03:36 AM	True. Very true. But blacksmiths may realize they'll make more money when they sell these weapons, and then they'll lower stocks of those weapons. Hm..... I never was good at making up my mind.
DMDaddy 08-09-05, 03:39 AM	When I DMd 2nd ed. I was very home brewed. Players in such situations love the chance of the roll. And, in many ways I understand exactly what you mean, Maybe. I gave all items a percentage chance to be in stock based on town size and party level. Anything over +2 was a rare item. Only a 10% chance of being in stock. Most normal items had a 33% chance of being in stock. Also, once I realized that I overpowered my PCs, I changed the campaign setting. Magic items were being stolen left and right. The PCs had to uncover the source behind the thefts. This made buy items very difficult and many monsters were stealing from the PCs and trying to destroy them and their items. Minions from hell were on the loose with a plan to destroy all magic items to help with their world conquest. Or something like that. I can't remember. The bottom line was that I found a way to reverse my problem of overpowering the PCs. I still allowed them to find magic items and often asked them what they would like to find or earn in battle. Good luck.
shadowfox628 08-09-05, 03:43 PM	Hm..... You know what, I just got an idea (one of you might have mentioned it already, or said something very similar, so, if that is the case, sorry): Use the prices in the book as a basis. That will be the price if they land on 10. For every number higher than 10, it will go down in price by X amount of gold. Every number less than 10 the price will rise X pieces of gold. Now, on top of that, they have to tell me specifically what they're looking for BEFORE they roll, and no re-rolls (buy or leave the store). This will prevent them from taking advantage of high rolls. Now, magical, uncommon, and special items will have a chance of being in stock. If not, they'll have to order (if they can find a place to order) it, and spend that extra money, or they can wait for the (possibly) unlikely chance of finding it. If they want a custom item (like they want an engraving on a sword, or buy a quarter staff with fancy designs), they'll have to pay the rolled price, plus extra for it being custom, and (again, possibly) even more to have it shipped. Anything shipped will take time. A ything made from scratch will take less time than being shipped. Engravings will take less time than something being made from scratch. So, what do you think? Any mistakes? Loopholes?
rbrt_Spade 08-09-05, 03:58 PM	Make a few generic stock tables, then. Make some for each type of store. Player: Alright, I walk into the blacksmith's shop and walk up to the man at the counter. "Pardon me, sir. Might I be able to see your wares?" DM: Rolls 1d20 (6). Refers to table. Result is Simple, One-Handed Weapons. Rolls additional 1d20 (3) to determine if there are any magical, there aren't "I've a large amount of shortspears available, plus some maces. Nothing fancy, mind you." Was that so hard? It's a one-time work-load for everything you need. some dms do this from the treasure tables in the dmg for stock and make up thier own tables for say food
rbrt_Spade 08-09-05, 04:00 PM	sounds like a good idea fox-i see no loopholes but for the custom-are you going to choose the designs of everything in stock in towns?
shadowfox628 08-10-05, 01:55 AM	For custom: No.... Chances highly are (99.99999999999999999999999%) they won't get a custom weapon. They're smart enough to know that an engraving on a weapon offers no pros to a weapon while used in combat (unlike a certain young Ocelot....). Hm.... I have come up with a fool proof system that fits my needs! Notcie to all: Thank you very much. No, seriously. Thanks.
Didge 08-10-05, 02:18 AM	Use the prices in the book as a basis. That will be the price if they land on 10. For every number higher than 10, it will go down in price by X amount of gold. Every number less than 10 the price will rise X pieces of gold. Now, on top of that, they have to tell me specifically what they're looking for BEFORE they roll, and no re-rolls (buy or leave the store). This will prevent them from taking advantage of high rolls. Not likely. Imagine if you will what happens when they go in and try to buy a dagger. Oh look, the daggers in this store are not only free (If they roll a 12 or higher) but do they suddenly get cash back? Is this because you've found the inept clerk who hands you the wrong amount of change? What if, now that the price has been set for daggers, they buy every single one in the store. Does the store now go bankrupt because Jimmy rolled high? Anything made from scratch will take less time than being shipped. Depends on where you're ordering it from and the skill of a crafter either in the town or nearby. Look at the Craft skill and you'll see that it doesn't take that long to craft something. The distance should play a factor, but if it's beyond a certain point it is equal to or faster to have someone craft the item there (assuming materials are available).
shadowfox628 08-10-05, 03:33 PM	Really, I don't go deep into detail, I don't want to get specific. Believe me, they don't want to buy daggers. They each have one (I forced one to keep his dagger, for it was his only silver weapon.... hint-hint), and they don't want more. I just need something that has the rolling of a d20, easy to do, simple, and something I don't have to think about much. And, to ease your pain, they won't be getting daggers any time soon, because they don't use them in the first place.
DMDaddy 08-10-05, 04:39 PM	Ok, assuming that you are using 3.5 and want a simple d20 system. 1. Create a system that determines availability. 19-20 small town has 20% to have any item over 10,000 gp. 17-20 medium town has 40% to have any item over 10,000 gp. 15-20 rich medium town has 50% But item is over 20,000 gp. Variables: +/-2 for every variable that may affect the above. Small town is being raided by bandits on a continual basis may add +2 to the above. Likewise a character that has good standing with a merchant may receive +2 on his roll and the merchant has a special back stock of items that he doesn't usually show. 2. Create pricing system. Nothing should be more than 60% off. And, this should be based on the characters actions with the merchant. 20 60% off 18-19 50% off 17 40% off 15-16 30% off 12-14 20% off 10-11 10% off 8-9 add 20% 6-7 add 30% 1-5 add 40% Add +/-2 for every variable you can think off. Character is mean to other customers in shop (-4). Character catches a thief or helps shop owner (+2). Town is being heavily taxed by the government (-5). 3. Once the price is set, make a haggle system that can allow the merchant to come down on price. Maybe a simple opposed d20 roll with modifiers.
shadowfox628 08-10-05, 11:08 PM	Hm, interesting.... I like it. (Notice: I play 3.o, due to lack of funds, laziness, and bad handeling of money). Really, I like it.