Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thecasualoblivion 04-05-07, 09:46 PM	Its always been a personal thing to me, but the concept of buying magic items offends me. I've never allowed it, and I've had lightning bolts from god strike characters who asked ordinary townsfolk where the magic item store was when I explained to the player in detail that they will never see a magic item store in my world and not to bother looking for one. Just something about the idea of it bothers me. Its not a limiting thing either, because I've always been very generous giving out magic items. I just don't like the idea of buying things at the store.
Yotoishness 04-05-07, 09:53 PM	I don't often have stores that sell magic items either, but I do make them buyable. I have a list of vendors that travel around and do some adventuring themselves, thus explaining why they have magic items. Each one has a certain number of specific items, and then for anything the PC might ask for, there's a certain d% chance he'll have it, based off merchant levels, rarity of item, etc. The chance is always pretty low for things like weapons, but higher for rings, scrolls, potions, etc. Along with that, I have timed routes they follow, so I know where they'll be at any given time, but the PCs don't. I have 2 or 3 for each really big city that spend a lot of time there, but the PCs still have to ask around and try and hunt them down. Oh, and I base the time off real world time, not game time. That way the PCs can't really figure it out. It was a bit of work getting all the kinks out of the mechanics of it, but I think it works, and adds a nice bit of flavor/roleplaying to the world, since the merchants they buy magic items from is a familar group to them.
Comus 04-05-07, 09:55 PM	Why? If players can sell magic items, there have to be people buying them, right? So if there are people buying, there are people selling, or re-selling. They're a valuable commodity, and anything that has value will be bought and sold. Now, granted, there might not be 'magic item shops', but it's certainly possible that there would be a group that helps connect buyers to sellers for a moderate fee (which is why you sell for half but buy full). I mean, really, I'd just like to know why it offends you.
thecasualoblivion 04-05-07, 10:01 PM	Why? If players can sell magic items, there have to be people buying them, right? So if there are people buying, there are people selling, or re-selling. They're a valuable commodity, and anything that has value will be bought and sold. Now, granted, there might not be 'magic item shops', but it's certainly possible that there would be a group that helps connect buyers to sellers for a moderate fee (which is why you sell for half but buy full). I mean, really, I'd just like to know why it offends you. I just don't like it from a roleplaying standpoint. Call me a LOTR *****, but in all of Tolkien's works you never saw anyone buying or selling that sort of stuff. I can't really stand Forgotten Realms or any of the published game worlds for this and similiar reasons. I don't have any mechanism for selling them either. My game is more based on a feudal economy of vassal-leige and gift giving. The main trading section of the economy is not really involved in selling this sort of stuff, though I might reward players for checking out dusty antique stores and foreigners selling exotic wares for the rare opportunity of finding something misplaced. The one rule I have in my games is that magic is not an everyday thing in the game world at large. You have to go on an adventure to see it, or you have to be an adventurer to use it. Elves and Dwarves live in faraway lands or in closed societies. The church and the inquisition burn "witches", so you just can't go around casting spells on the street.
Burgundy Lotus 04-05-07, 10:01 PM	Why? If players can sell magic items, there have to be people buying them, right? So if there are people buying, there are people selling, or re-selling. They're a valuable commodity, and anything that has value will be bought and sold. Now, granted, there might not be 'magic item shops', but it's certainly possible that there would be a group that helps connect buyers to sellers for a moderate fee (which is why you sell for half but buy full). I mean, really, I'd just like to know why it offends you. Exactly! an adventurers guild, mages guild or even just an auction house will do. Just because things can be bought doesn't mean that what the PCs are looking for will be available either, or at a reasonable price. I've always thought that the complete lack of them in a campaign setting was just too unrealistic. At least for my tastes.
NerdNumber1 04-05-07, 10:04 PM	It would depend on the world. Eberron shops would sell everything. Some places would require special orders or be restricted to certain, widely used items, such as healing potions or the rare +1 sword. Also, those treasures that the adventurers dig up have to go somewhere, and if there was no way to sell such items, what shop-keeper would buy them. It all depends on your campaign.
Raumz 04-05-07, 10:04 PM	I dont really like my players to be able to buy magical items either. Though I do like to put some items in shops that are more of 'dream items' than anything. Like when they are at level 1 I would put a +10 mithril greatsword that costs thousands upon thousands of gold. (usually my campaign dont last long enough for the players to even afford these items if they add all their wealth together, due to the fact that the players like to kill innocent people and they aren't really smart enough to keep from getting caught/dieing in the process). But every once and a while very rarely I do put a amulet or something in the shops that costs something like the PCs first born, just so my players keep going to the shops to check in every once and a while.
Comus 04-05-07, 10:06 PM	Are you sure that you just hate 'magic item shops'? It seems to me that you just prefer low-magic games. On that note, have you considered looking into Iron Heroes? I've heard it's good for that kind of game, and have considered picking it up myself.
thecasualoblivion 04-05-07, 10:10 PM	Exactly! an adventurers guild, mages guild or even just an auction house will do. Just because things can be bought doesn't mean that what the PCs are looking for will be available either, or at a reasonable price. I've always thought that the complete lack of them in a campaign setting was just too unrealistic. At least for my tastes. I've always held that adventurers are a little too individualistic to form guilds, and mages are jealous and solitary. Organizations that do exist(bards, clerics, and a few non-class specific organizations) tend to be more feudal in nature and tend to reward items for services rendered(and the PCs have little control over what they get, though I don't give out useless or obsolete items) and don't buy or sell anything.
thecasualoblivion 04-05-07, 10:12 PM	Are you sure that you just hate 'magic item shops'? It seems to me that you just prefer low-magic games. On that note, have you considered looking into Iron Heroes? I've heard it's good for that kind of game, and have considered picking it up myself. To be perfectly honest, I'm more likely to give a vorpal sword to an 8th level fighter than to skimp on magic items. I give out too much if anything, I just give out all items either as gifts or as stuff won through violence.
wizarddog 04-05-07, 10:30 PM	I have been in both camps-never being able to buy magic items or letting them buy anything. In my current game I allow for customize purchases of items that are useful to the characters (because they play thieves). The trick was putting a limit on how much and what they could buy. 1. They could buy up to their XP level in gp of magic items in each session. Which included scrolls and potions. 2. They could own no more than x2 their Experience total in GP of bought magic items. This excluded any items they found or were given. This also excluded potions and scrolls. 3. They have to have DM permission to buy the item. I had to adjust this many times to keep balance. Since I did not give out many magic items in adventures this was the only real way they got any real useful items. wizarddog
Comus 04-05-07, 10:33 PM	To be perfectly honest, I'm more likely to give a vorpal sword to an 8th level fighter than to skimp on magic items. I give out too much if anything, I just give out all items either as gifts or as stuff won through violence. What do the PCs do with magic items that aren't useful to them anymore? Like, what does the fighter do with his +1 longsword when the Order of the Hare hands him a +2 flaming longsword as a reward?
Burgundy Lotus 04-05-07, 10:35 PM	What do the PCs do with magic items that aren't useful to them anymore? Like, what does the fighter do with his +1 longsword when the Order of the Hare hands him a +2 flaming longsword as a reward? This is what I'd like to know too. How are the items recirculated in the campaign?
thecasualoblivion 04-05-07, 10:44 PM	What do the PCs do with magic items that aren't useful to them anymore? Like, what does the fighter do with his +1 longsword when the Order of the Hare hands him a +2 flaming longsword as a reward? There are multiple answers to this. In the game I'm currently running, the characters are serving the local count and have their own rooms in his castle, which they've been dumping their excess crap in. A few obsolete items were given to NPCs who helped out, and I rewarded this with the NPCs being even more helpful in the future. The leader of the four mercenaries they pay to guard the wagon wields a +1 Longsword and +1 Shield the party didn't need anymore, and even if he were to bolt on them(and why would he, they pay him well and he doesn't really see much danger) he's done them enough service that they wouldn't be that upset about losing the items. There are more solutions if you're creative. The main point is that most of the items they have were given to them as gifts. All they are doing is continuing the chain, a foreign concept in most games I must admit, and it did take some encouragement.
KillerGM 04-05-07, 10:58 PM	Meh. I like having magic items available for purchase on both sides of the table. It's just not a big deal to me. Obviously, you're influenced by your perception of what the world should be like - and you admit to be inspired by "non-magic-trade" Tolkien. I don't have that inspiration; I like the magic shops and the Wizards/Clerics who sell stuff. I like my players to be able to get a +1 sword, because I'm not going to tailor the treasure to each character. I don't want to start a flame war - this is NOT a "old school vs new school" debate - I have noticed that the most restrictive DM's, in terms of buying magic items, have strong pre-3.0 ties. Was it very rare to buy magic items back then? I only ask because I never played D&D pre-3.0, and I never came across that kind of attitude in any of the 3.0 books. Someone said to me they don't let people buy stuff because they want the magic stuff to mean something to the characters... but it's been my experience that players will become attached to their weapon/armor/whathaveyou, even if they can buy other stuff. Again, meh. If it works for you, and your group, do what you like! :D
TwiddleStootch 04-05-07, 11:00 PM	I see nothing wrong with selling magic items. of course, I am into High-Magic worlds and love the idea of common place magic items :D But if that's not your thing, hey, just do your thing.
thecasualoblivion 04-05-07, 11:04 PM	I don't want to start a flame war - this is NOT a "old school vs new school" debate - I have noticed that the most restrictive DM's, in terms of buying magic items, have strong pre-3.0 ties. Was it very rare to buy magic items back then? I only ask because I never played D&D pre-3.0, and I never came across that kind of attitude in any of the 3.0 books. I'm not 100% positive, but I believe the 2nd edition DMG said that magic item shops should not exist. To be perfectly honest, I do have strong pre-3.0 ties. I still found players who expected to find magic item shops back in 2nd edition though. Its not a question of control. I throw random items at the players all the time, and I've let them draw up want lists and the items they get from kings, and churches, and elves often follow the want lists, so they do get some say. Mostly, I just don't like the flavor of it. Magic is magical, its not a mundane or everday thing. You don't find it in something as mundane as a store or guild.
Comus 04-05-07, 11:18 PM	Mostly, I just don't like the flavor of it. Magic is magical, its not a mundane or everday thing. You don't find it in something as mundane as a store or guild. Well, like you said, it's all about the kind of world you run. I tend to go for more steampunk-type settings, you prefer tolken-esque high fantasy. Your worlds don't have magic shops, and as long as the players are having fun, that's all that matters. :)
KillerGM 04-05-07, 11:22 PM	Mostly, I just don't like the flavor of it. Magic is magical, its not a mundane or everday thing. You don't find it in something as mundane as a store or guild. Right, and that's the way you see it. For me, one of the appeals of running a fantasy setting is that magic is mundane. If a town's population is large enough to support it, I love that there will be magic items for sale. It's a preference, and as long as it's working for everyone involved, more power to ya! :D
AntiDjinn 04-05-07, 11:59 PM	Whether or not you can wrap your head around the concept of shopping for magic items, the fact is sooner or later you PCs may want to sell an item (not like they need that +1 sword once they have the +2 wounding). If the concept of Magemart doesn't fit your world (it doesn't fit mine either) there are several sales models you can follow. 1) Direct sale to purchaser: The characters have an item, they must find a buyer themselves. This is like you trying to sell a car without going to a dealer. They don't sell to a merchant: Few would have the cash on hand to buy a magic item outright, and those who do will not want that much money tied up in an item for which they might not find a buyer and that presents a tempting target for thieves. Advantages: The sale has to be roleplayed and can be an adventure hook. They have to haggle. They may go expecting a sale and find an ambush. 2) Commissioned items only: When you want to purchase an item you go see someone with the ability to make the item. This guy is not a shopkeeper, he is a mage, artificer, or whatnot. He does not have shelves full of magic items, instead he has a book listing the items he has made before as well as those he feels are within his ability to create. He can discuss price and time to create (there may be a cue). He may want half up front and may require you to provide any special reagents. After the deal is sealed he begins work on the item. The only "orphaned" items he may have on hand are items that were commissioned then never picked up. Advantages: Well, it just makes sense. Why put money and XP into making an item then have it gather dust because no one wants or can afford a +3 dire flail? Given how much effort it takes to make an item, you really only want to do so when you know it has a buyer. Anyway, a rich noble doesn't want an off the shelf +2 sword or one that was recovered from the floor of a dungeon, he wants one that was custom forged for him. 3) Brokers/Arrangers: You are looking for a specific item, or have one for sale. The guy you see is not a shopkeeper but a broker. He does not keep a stock of items on hand. Instead, he has a network of contacts (and shares his list with no one). For a fee he will simply bring buyer and seller together. For a percentage he will middleman the sale so that buyer and seller never need meet. In no case does ownership of the item pass to him, he is simply a paid agent. Advantages: Intrigue. For a high skullduggery game it adds a cloak and dagger element to item sales. The prices will be high though and profits to the seller reduced due to the broker's cut, but figure the sale would have never taken place without his help. 4) Consignment: Again, no Magemart. An emporium of general goods might sell the odd magic item. If you want to sell an item you sign a consignment agreement. The merchant does not purchase the item, but agrees to display it, answer questions about it, and provide security for it. The seller sets the price. If it sells, the merchant gets a percentage (usually about 20-30%) and holds the rest for the seller. Advantages: It is actually a common real world selling model. It is easy if you are patient. Profit margin can be low though. 5) Auction House: You can sell a variety of things at auctions, although magic items should only turn up rarely. There are many models for auctions: They can be voice (the fast-talking caller) or written, secret or not. Sellers of magic items may be required to pay for Identify by the auction house, or may be required to put up a bond against fraud. Advantages: It turns item sales from a shop to an event (once a month or so would be about right for major auctions). Plenty of opportunity for action if many parties want the same item. You can throw the DMG pricelist away; the same price of an item depends on how many bid on it and how bad they want it. The PC's item may go for a fraction of its value, or they may make a killing.
Thubby 04-06-07, 12:14 AM	for me, there are no "magic shops" there is a market for magic items, sure, but no standing buildings. you can go find a merchant who owns a "headband of intelect", but you cant just go to the corner and find one. its impractical unless your in a place like sigil, since 99% of people can't buy your product!
Voran 04-06-07, 08:11 AM	On some levels I have no problems with commissioning of magic items. I don't really mind low level magic shops, but if you want quality stuff you have to have it made, not just pick it up at a "Swordz-R-Us". You want better stuff? Peel it off the dead bodies of your foes, or make really good and powerful friends that can open avenues for you to get what you want. As a general rule of thumb, the more funky the item is (in terms of having multiple magical qualities) or higher rated the item is, the harder it will be to get. I think of it this way, what would be more common +2 Swords, or +1 Swords of Flame?
Leilond 04-06-07, 08:28 AM	The DMG give important information about "cities economical resource" If you look for a +1 sword, you'll probably found it in different cities... or at least there well be a caster able to create it for the right price in few days in any city with enought population If you're looking for a 20.000 gold magic items, things become MORE problematic. It is very difficult that a "magic item creators" create a 20.000 gold magic items without being sure there's someone ready to buy it! This means such items will be created only on "commission" and there isn't "ready supplies of those items". The result is that characters must pay half the value immediatly and have the time to "wait" for the preparation (1 month?) or go out on journey and come back after a month to pay the remind and take the item. Every now and then there can be a 20.000 gold item "unsold" because the "commissioner" never came back to take the item (died during adventure or other reason), or because the seller "bougth one some time before hoping to sell it early" but it's an "exception" that usually characters doesn't expect and probably put them in the situation "Have I to wait 1 month for the item I need or is it better to take this immediatly? It is similar to what I need" Conclusion "Magic items shops" exists only in big cities and contanins only "low level and most used items", like "some potions, some scrolls, some +1 weapons and one particular weapon (+1 flaming sword for examples) " All other "not usual or expesive" items can be "ordered" only from "hight level casters" found in "mage guilds", "big temples" and every now and then in "the tower of that old wizard that always ask you for quests instead of money". And remeber that not all casters have all the spells necessary for creating all possible magic items. Sometimes a caster can ask you something like "I need this spell to prepare the item, but haven't it... you must find a scroll for me if you want I prepare it". If the spell is "high level" you cannot "buy" it but you'll probably need a spellcaster that will give the spell to you after you complete a quest for him/her In Waterdeep or Silvermoon you'll probably find someone that can create you what you need, but if you go in smaller cities, the things becomes more complicated
Laucian The Black Hearted 04-06-07, 09:15 AM	It doesn't make sense that magic items aren't available in stores. Unless you're playing a low-magic world, it shouldn't be that way. If you can find a Wizard or Sorcerer in a city, then chances are, you can find a magic item. Even in small towns, for example, things like Everburning Torches, low-level cloaks and maybe even some other minor wondrous items could be available. In general, you shouldn't find anything more than a few thousand GP in a shop, simply because there isn't enough demand for people to just have a mutli-thousand dollar fortune of magic itmes in their back room. I find people tend to either fill their games with items, so they don't even seem special, or to just strip them out so that they seem almost impossible to find. Neither extreme is a good idea.
thecasualoblivion 04-06-07, 09:48 AM	It doesn't make sense that magic items aren't available in stores. Unless you're playing a low-magic world, it shouldn't be that way. If you can find a Wizard or Sorcerer in a city, then chances are, you can find a magic item. Even in small towns, for example, things like Everburning Torches, low-level cloaks and maybe even some other minor wondrous items could be available. In general, you shouldn't find anything more than a few thousand GP in a shop, simply because there isn't enough demand for people to just have a mutli-thousand dollar fortune of magic itmes in their back room. I find people tend to either fill their games with items, so they don't even seem special, or to just strip them out so that they seem almost impossible to find. Neither extreme is a good idea. I play a hybrid low magic/high magic game. Civilization is very low-magic, and the wild is high-magic.
Kursk 04-06-07, 09:53 AM	In a large town my game might have a few +1 level items for sale. That's about it. The players either have to make, find or very rarely, commission anything else they want.
green_yawgmoth 04-06-07, 10:18 AM	You're right, since magic is so restricted in the default setting, it should be impossible for players to even know about the magic items that are expected to exist! I mean, there's not that many casting classes, and everyone knows that PCs aren't really expected to want to play one. And since you have to be at near-epic levels (I personally hate it when my players even gain their second level, let alone a whopping third!) to get magic item creation feats, why should anyone think that there would be a market for them? It's madness! I mean, if you allow magic items to be bought and sold in cities, then what? prestige classes? XP for defeating traps? Feats with prerequisites? The nerve of your players to expect have nice things once in a while. :rolleyes: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 04-06-07, 10:29 AM	I just don't like it from a roleplaying standpoint. Call me a LOTR *****, but in all of Tolkien's works you never saw anyone buying or selling that sort of stuff. I can't really stand Forgotten Realms or any of the published game worlds for this and similiar reasons. I don't have any mechanism for selling them either. My game is more based on a feudal economy of vassal-leige and gift giving. The main trading section of the economy is not really involved in selling this sort of stuff, though I might reward players for checking out dusty antique stores and foreigners selling exotic wares for the rare opportunity of finding something misplaced. The one rule I have in my games is that magic is not an everyday thing in the game world at large. You have to go on an adventure to see it, or you have to be an adventurer to use it. Elves and Dwarves live in faraway lands or in closed societies. The church and the inquisition burn "witches", so you just can't go around casting spells on the street. I like your reasons for the finding and earing magic items. But your LOTR excuse is terrible. You never see them buying magic items because of the seriousness of their task. Oh no Mr. Frodo, we've run out of Lambas bread. But Sam we're right at the base of Mt Doom! It's been ages since we've even seen a travellig person that didn't want to kill us. If we go back now, we might never stop the dark lord. But Mr Frodo, we have a lot of gold, and can buy magic items along with the bread! But we need to destroy the ring NOW! Wow, I can just imagine it.
Kursk 04-06-07, 11:15 AM	You're right, since magic is so restricted in the default setting, it should be impossible for players to even know about the magic items that are expected to exist! I mean, there's not that many casting classes, and everyone knows that PCs aren't really expected to want to play one. And since you have to be at near-epic levels (I personally hate it when my players even gain their second level, let alone a whopping third!) to get magic item creation feats, why should anyone think that there would be a market for them? It's madness! I guess it depends on how many millionaire adventurers are walking around the campaign world. Lots = lots of magic for sale. Very small amount means very little for sale. Very simple econ 101
Pyke_Moonshadow 04-06-07, 11:31 AM	My homebrew doesn't have an established market for magic items either. My players use what they find. You have a +1 longsword and find a +2 flaming one you either give the +1 to a loyal henchman, another player or hang onto it in case someone sunders you +2 flaming sword. If a PC wants a magic item that they haven't found yet? I hope someone in the group is a spellcaters that can make it. I don't know, neither my group that I play in nor the one I run has complained about it. Magic is gear, for us you make due with what you have, it is never vital to the character or how the character is played. (that is all in my experience of course)
Leilond 04-06-07, 11:38 AM	My homebrew doesn't have an established market for magic items either. My players use what they find. You have a +1 longsword and find a +2 flaming one you either give the +1 to a loyal henchman, another player or hang onto it in case someone sunders you +2 flaming sword. If a PC wants a magic item that they haven't found yet? I hope someone in the group is a spellcaters that can make it. I don't know, neither my group that I play in nor the one I run has complained about it. Magic is gear, for us you make due with what you have, it is never vital to the character or how the character is played. (that is all in my experience of course) I understend your view, but let me ask one question? Do your players sell the items they do not use anymore? And if the answer is "yes", I think other adventurers do the same (unless they're the only adventurers of your world). At this point if they can sell items, why can't they buy those dismissed by "higher level adventurers"? Another question Isn't there in your world any "spellcaster" that want to make a magic item for gold supply he's running out? The issue I'm talking about is a bit of realism: where do all the unused items finish? I know that "realism" isn't always "fondamental", and I'm sure you and your friends have tons of fun with your system, I'm only curios to know if thinked about it or you simply do not interest it
Kursk 04-06-07, 11:47 AM	I understend your view, but let me ask one question? Do your players sell the items they do not use anymore? I think he covered that clearly in his original post.
Roxlimn 04-06-07, 11:50 AM	Actually, Middle Earth is chock-full of "magic" stuff that's either commissioned or just full-out bought in shops. The Gates of Minas Tirith and its walls were not made by humans. They were commissioned to Dwarves. The famous Nauglamir were also commissioned from Dwarves, and I understand that the King Under the Mountain made a pretty penny selling mithril, both raw and worked into armors. The Noldor weren't much for trading with anyone, since they're basically racist and violent invaders, but even they traded with Dwarves at some point, and again they probably would have traded in stuffs that could be thought of as "magic" such as elf rope, waybread and such. Noldorin weapons were greatly sought after. The Westernese were also great voyagers, sailors and traders. In their native island, they made many wonderful things, arguably enchanted, and of course, they traded with their own. There are no magic shops, as such, in Eberron. Economy is controlled through the Guilds by the Dragonmarked Houses and that means that if you're looking for potions and weapons and such, you're looking to purchase or commission items from the Fabricator's Guild, likely from a Cannith House Arms facility, if you're looking for anything powerful. It's not a generic "magic shop" kind of thing, and more of a semi-military highly fortified arms depot sort of thing.
Bringer of autumn 04-06-07, 11:51 AM	I sort of agree with the thread starter. I hate having magic items being prevalent in a campaign because they lose their mystique of being magical items. Magic items are supposed to be special, and players should get excited and feel thankful for getting a hold of a magical item. If you just have "Magic-R-US" shops all over the place then the players just start to think of magical items as everyday things and lose respect for them.
Pyke_Moonshadow 04-06-07, 12:01 PM	I understend your view, but let me ask one question? Do your players sell the items they do not use anymore? And if the answer is "yes", I think other adventurers do the same (unless they're the only adventurers of your world). At this point if they can sell items, why can't they buy those dismissed by "higher level adventurers"? no, they really don't. Even though they can cast fly they don't see the need to get rid of the rope of climbing they have. Another question Isn't there in your world any "spellcaster" that want to make a magic item for gold supply he's running out? Maybe, the issue has not come up. I don't really see how the wizard would get word out except through his close network of associates that he was a crafter for hire. The issue I'm talking about is a bit of realism: where do all the unused items finish? I know that "realism" isn't always "fondamental", and I'm sure you and your friends have tons of fun with your system, I'm only curios to know if thinked about it or you simply do not interest it I simply have little interest in it. I just don't want players catalog shopping.
AntiDjinn 04-06-07, 12:05 PM	My group played in an Oriental Adventures game set in Rokugan, and there was no trade in magic items simply because the politics did not support it. Since we were samurai, shugenja, and allies (all the same clan) everything we owned down to the shirts on our backs was property of the extended clan family. If you have a magic item for sale you can't dump it on the open market because the resource might land in the hands of a rival clan or other enemies. The daimyo of the clan might give the item to another member who can better use it (with a reward given to the one who donated the item, which could simply be higher standing in the clan -- worth more than gold in most cases) or lock it away, figuring it was better for the item to be gathering dust than to ever be used against the clan's interests. Ninja clans also keep useful items to themselves and assigned them to operatives when needed for specific missions. The people who lived outside of the control of the houses of the Five Rings presumably had some trade in magic, but powerful items were rare because the major houses trained the most powerful shugenja.
Comus 04-06-07, 12:10 PM	I sort of agree with the thread starter. I hate having magic items being prevalent in a campaign because they lose their mystique of being magical items. Magic items are supposed to be special, and players should get excited and feel thankful for getting a hold of a magical item. If you just have "Magic-R-US" shops all over the place then the players just start to think of magical items as everyday things and lose respect for them. Do note, though, that at mid-high level play, magical items become everyday things in D&D. NPC opponents have them, the players have them, and they're found in nearly every treasure pile.
Ikyotojin 04-06-07, 12:14 PM	I'm on the flip side of the coin here. In my world magic takes the place of technology. Every village and most families have a common hearth magic caster of some sort. Ever burning torches, villages pooling their funds to get a decanter of endless water, families getting Smith's Stones (magically sharpen, de-rust and remove nicks from knives, plows, etc)... Every grandmother knows at least one recipe to remove headaches, colds or warts. Magic in my campaign gives people the ability to simulate close to Victorian era living while still looking medieval. There are magic shops in every large town and city. It's a good way to get all that gold out of the players. ;) But I also have a very odd outlook - in a world where there ARE gods, goddesses, demons and magic, no church is gonna last long burning witches when what they call heresy is another group's religion.
Kursk 04-06-07, 12:15 PM	Do note, though, that at mid-high level play, magical items become everyday things in D&D. NPC opponents have them, the players have them, and they're found in nearly every treasure pile. Yes, but that doesn't equate to "magic emporiums". Also, if they are laying in a "treasure pile" and not used by the owners to combat the PC's (in most cases) then the DM is pretty incompetent.
green_yawgmoth 04-06-07, 03:22 PM	I guess it depends on how many millionaire adventurers are walking around the campaign world. Lots = lots of magic for sale. Very small amount means very little for sale. Very simple econ 101who said you have to be a millionaire? Basic items are anywhere from a few hundred to a couple tousand gold; by the books, a 4th level character has (or should have) over 5,000gp - plenty enough to by a few minor magic items. Considering that 4th is the first level not grouped with any other levels in the XP chart, it stands to reason that 4th is a pretty easy level to obtain with a little effort on said person's part. Not everyone wants to go excavate the forbidden temple of pain, but those who do will have the funds to stop by the local mage guild/auctionhouse/retired wizard and get something picked up or commisioned. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Kursk 04-06-07, 03:33 PM	who said you have to be a millionaire? Based on the average wage per annum in the D&D World, the ability to buy high level magic items for cash is the province of people who are the monetary equivalent of millionaires in the world. A 10,000 GP item equals about $220,000 in gold.
methridg 04-06-07, 04:26 PM	Do note, though, that at mid-high level play, magical items become everyday things in D&D. NPC opponents have them, the players have them, and they're found in nearly every treasure pile. Not in my campaign where the PCs are around 16th level. Magic still isn't common and it's certainly not in every treasure pile. The PCs have great gear, but it's been slowing going and they can tell how/where/when they got each magic item they have. Actually, every member of the group could probably tell you how each item was aquired. I wouldn't call it a low-magic world, but I would say that magic items are still rare. There's no market for anything magic beyond low level potions and scrolls, and even those are only found in the largest cities under the watchful eye of some high-level spell caster or government.
AntiDjinn 04-06-07, 06:34 PM	Just because an NPC has a net worth of 100,000 gp, does not mean that is the amount of gold in his pocket at the moment. It will rarely be the case that a wealthy NPC lives on the street because everything he owns is on his person at all times.He may own a home and run a business and have land and other assets. It is unlikely he will liquidate everything he owns and sell his family into slavery to buy a 100K gp item. It will rarely be the case that the value of a single item will be more than 1/3 to 1/2 of a character's net worth. So just because there is a population at hand with a high net worth does not mean they are sinking it all into items. How many things do you own (other than a home) that are worth more than a year of your income?
tharivol266 04-06-07, 09:37 PM	i use a brokerage guild. you contact them and tell them what you want then come back the next day and they have a price and a time for delivery so you can pick it up when it is ready(this could be right now or in a few weeks when it is done being made) the crafter of the item charges dmg price and the firm charges a 5% fee and 1gp/day if you need somewhere to hold stuff while you wait. This way the players can get what they want most of the time but it isnt a "walk in and get x" thing. This system also prevents the whole "I kill the shop keeper and steal everything" because the shop doesnt hold any items there and it doesnt disclose the suppliers.
Kursk 04-07-07, 11:21 AM	Just because an NPC has a net worth of 100,000 gp, does not mean that is the amount of gold in his pocket at the moment. It will rarely be the case that a wealthy NPC lives on the street because everything he owns is on his person at all times.He may own a home and run a business and have land and other assets. It is unlikely he will liquidate everything he owns and sell his family into slavery to buy a 100K gp item. It will rarely be the case that the value of a single item will be more than 1/3 to 1/2 of a character's net worth. So just because there is a population at hand with a high net worth does not mean they are sinking it all into items. How many things do you own (other than a home) that are worth more than a year of your income? Quit making sense & using logic! ;)
Demon Lightfoot 04-07-07, 02:37 PM	In my game, there are no "magic shops". Most people CAN'T AFFORD MAGIC ITEMS For those precious few who can, they may find a merchant or mage guild that has the odd item or two for sale...but not as a general rule, and it won't be anything spectacular. A caster might be able to be commissioned to craft an item, but usually the "purchaser" will have to supply materials and/or XP somehow for the item. Potions may be got from alchemists, grannies, hedge-wizards or churches at varying costs (and be of varying efficacy). A PC caster can always take the feat (IMG I've folded the craft feats together, with level prereqs for different items instead of the several different feats as in the RAW) and craft items himself for fun, profit or utility...but so far most everyone likes their XP too much to burn it for items. Most items IMG were crafted long, long ago in a higher-magic "Golden Age", but Bad Things Happened and that era ended, with items being lost, scattered, stolen, hidden, hoarded or passed down through the generations from parent to offspring. You get them by finding them or killing whoever found them already and prying them from their cold, dead fingers. A wizard might trade a magic item to another wizard for a look at his spellbook; a baron might gift a loyal knight with a +1 shield (one of my own characters is wont to do this); a band of mercenary scum-err, adventurers, might trade magic items for a raise dead or the like with a local church/temple/shrine (or they might use it to bribe their way past a monster they know they can't handle). But rarely are such things bought and sold. And. There. Are. No. Damned. Magic. Shops.
Tisner44 04-07-07, 02:59 PM	Its always been a personal thing to me, but the concept of buying magic items offends me. I've never allowed it, and I've had lightning bolts from god strike characters who asked ordinary townsfolk where the magic item store was when I explained to the player in detail that they will never see a magic item store in my world and not to bother looking for one. Just something about the idea of it bothers me. Its not a limiting thing either, because I've always been very generous giving out magic items. I just don't like the idea of buying things at the store. I think you are taking this to the extreme by saying it is personal. From what it sounds like it is personal preference because your game setting. Every game setting is different and some are high magic as stated previously and others are low magic and similar to your world. Being offended by the thought of a magic shop is silly for a game that depends on imagination. I also run a world where a magic shop is just like an appliance shop in modern times. Minor magic items are fairly common and easy to get, while major items are far harder. I also have a portion of my world that is the opposite. It is a jungle environment and magic items are very rare and may only be gifts. D&D is meant for everyone to keep an open mind to all possibilities. If you don't like something that is your opinion and you can state that, but don't say your offended by it, that ruins the spirit of the game.:cool:
Holy_Beholder 04-07-07, 08:43 PM	I usually have the grand total of 1 magic item shop. And most of their items are fake. Since in my campaigns, the players often split up when they hit a city. So rings, phylacteries and such are usually real, but some of the weapons are fake. Imagine the look on the fighters face when his +3 longsword turned out to be a fraud.
Thubby 04-07-07, 11:31 PM	I usually have the grand total of 1 magic item shop. And most of their items are fake. Since in my campaigns, the players often split up when they hit a city. So rings, phylacteries and such are usually real, but some of the weapons are fake. Imagine the look on the fighters face when his +3 longsword turned out to be a fraud. imagine the look on the shop keeps face when the fighter came back! (there is a reason most standing shops are legit, and thats it)
johnhansen 04-08-07, 12:58 AM	The concept of ye old walmart makes me sick but if it is what you love then enjoy it in your game. What I have done in my campaign is have a few shops that sell potions and may have a few random magic items that other adventures have brought in. But if you want items made for you, you will need to do some role playing.
Guardian Phoenix 04-08-07, 01:37 AM	Magic shops in my game, certainly not. However, the church has several potions for sale, very popular with the rich, and the weaponsmith managed to acquire a magical blade or two, and the town gossip knows a certain noble who is nearly down to his last copper who has a suit of magical plate that he'll never use. Magic items can be purchased, just not all at a single location. The first time or two we'll play out running around town talking to every person to find each item that is for sale, but that breaks down in two ways very quickly. First, the players always think that there's one more person they need to find and make just one more gather information attempt to find that one last item that's perfect for their character and that slows everything down. Second, it's interesting the first time or two, but it gets rather dull after that, it's simply not heroic and in all the stories I like to read, the characters are heroes. All in all, the fun is not in the town; the fun is in the dungeon. We take care of resupplying in town as quickly as possible so we can get back to the wilderness where the adventure is taking place and the PCs are being heroes.
Limousine_Liberal 04-08-07, 02:58 AM	I don't mind the buying and selling of magic items (though it does have a certain video game feel to it), except for one thing. Where do mages and others get all the XP they need to make all this stuff? Even a high level wizard can't "stock a store" before he has spent all the XP the rules will allow. At 20th level, you have at most 19,000 XP to throw at this stuff at any given moment. A few big ticket items will eat that up. Even an artificer with Legendary Craftsman feat has limits. Even if the crafter uses the spell that allows him to share up to half the XP cost with someone else (likely, it seems to me, the would-be buyer), the store would have to be closed half the time with a "Gone Adventurin'" sign hung in the window. Mostly, DMs with whom I've played that have allowed unlimited magic item sales have simply ignored this XP cost when it comes to NPCs. (Yet they strictly enforce it when PC's are crafting the items.) Magic item shops should either carry a large number of low cost items, or a very limited selection of big ticket ones. The problem is that it's a pain in the ass to have to roll up/write out inventory for each individual shop, which I suspect is the impetus of the MageMart. Even if you take the time to make the list, very little value is added, as most of your list won't come up in the RP interaction. For me, the "special order" system makes the most sense for pricier items. There are still issues (finding a mage that has the right crafting feat and the right spells or a cleric or druid with the appropriate crafting feat often becomes a challenge, for example), but special orders explain the existence of the "shops" from an XP point of view. It's not really a "shop" with shelves of goods and which is open for business daily during regular business hours; it's more like a smith's workshop that's used once in a while. I do have mixed feelings about the ubiquitous Wand of Cure Light Wounds or Wand of Lesser Vigor. Given their low cost, I do expect that those items would be common...but they make the dangers of adventuring far more trivial than I prefer them to be. Basically they eliminate hit point attrition over the course of the day from about 3rd level on up. I am tempted to require that anyone buying a magic item also supply the XP requires for that item (at least when buying it on the open market from an NPC), even for small ticket items. (I'd of course have to introduce a spell for that purpose, to suck XP from the character and give it to the item's creator...sort of a modiifed version of the Transference spell from the PHB2 Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a)). Wands of CLW would still be very cheap to acquire and worth the costs, but I have a feeling that players would be a little more frugal with them, if they were spending XP—not just gold—to get them.
Thubby 04-08-07, 03:23 AM	Limousine_Liberal the ways to stock a magic shop is: A) go adventuring, sell what you bring back B) retire and craft and sell that C) buy low and sell high, get that magic sword for 1900 and sell it for 2100, like any other merchant. comissioned magic items would be more rare (for your reasons), but you could use those mostly profit ventures to start the business (an initial investment, then commission other mages to make stuff for your customers, and so on)
Limousine_Liberal 04-08-07, 03:44 AM	Limousine_Liberal the ways to stock a magic shop is: A) go adventuring, sell what you bring back B) retire and craft and sell that C) buy low and sell high, get that magic sword for 1900 and sell it for 2100, like any other merchant. comissioned magic items would be more rare (for your reasons), but you could use those mostly profit ventures to start the business (an initial investment, then commission other mages to make stuff for your customers, and so on) Retirement is the problem. If you craft yourself, you'll use up XP pretty fast, unless you stick to the cheap stuff. At 10th level, assuming you are very close (within 10 XP) to reaching 11th, you can only craft eleven CL10 wands of fireball and one CL3 Wand of Magic Missiles, and you'll have pretty much no XP reserve left. That is a pretty sparse looking shop. (In fact, you can't even craft that much without massive loans, because that much crafting costs 122,875 gold in raw materials, and even PC's should only have 49,000 - 66,000 gold at that time, but I assume someone will make the loan of a share of the profits.) If magic item shops are just a matter of finding items while adventuring and then selling them, then no NPC run shop should have more than the NPC gear value by level table suggests (up to 21,000 gold at 11th level, though perhaps a small multiple of that, if the NPC is selling his or her partymate's gear as well as his or her own). Of course, if that's its basis, mages and clerics should never run these shops. Bards and Charisma-rogues are better bargainers and just as likely to find magic items as anyone else.
Thubby 04-08-07, 04:08 AM	you assume everyone makes the wealth by level chart, which is wrong, some people make more, much more, by luck or working harder, so they'll have more stuff. if the retiry only sells commissioned items, he'd only have to make a few to have enough to live off comfortably for the rest of eternity. so its "im done adventuring, im gonna sell my old gear, maybe sell a few magic items, and spell me up a fortress, then live off that nest egg for the rest of my days" mages are best suited to run said shops because not only do they understand the product best, but they can protect it best. rogues are going tohave to find/use an item to stop some jerk from porting in and robbing him, what does mr wizard do? protection from teleportation. not to say non mages cant be magic item sellers, they just have to be a bit more creative. (markets, and trade guilds run by non mages are better for them, where as a standing shop is best suited to a mage)
Tisner44 04-08-07, 10:16 AM	Actually most shops should be run by commoners, the items are made by adventurers. An adventuring mage would come back between adventures and create some new items and restock the best selling ones. The biggest limitation with this is amount of time it takes for creation, so as a houserule you could implement that the mage has hired a group of crafters to build the item and all he does is spend the XP and cast the spells, then he leaves as the crafters finish the job. This still limits PC crafters because they don't have the time or means (usually) to hire a group of crafters to finish magic items. The magic item creation rules were meant to control the amount of magic items a PC makes, but if you want magic to be common place in your world a DM should create rules for crafters to create minor magic items to be sold.
Kursk 04-08-07, 11:45 AM	Actually most shops should be run by commoners, the items are made by adventurers. An adventuring mage would come back between adventures and create some new items and restock the best selling ones. I've never had PCs who want to do this. Thus, I can't envision NPCs wanting to either.
Guardian Phoenix 04-08-07, 01:27 PM	I've never had PCs who want to do this. Thus, I can't envision NPCs wanting to either. I've never had PCs who want to farm, run a smithy, or hold weekly church services, yet all these seem to exist in most campaigns. NPC motivations tend to be dramatically different from PC motivations.
Kursk 04-08-07, 02:00 PM	NPC motivations tend to be dramatically different from PC motivations. Not when they are PC type classes. Farmer not equal to Wizard.
JulesCARV 04-08-07, 02:34 PM	There are four routes to magic items as I see it. One basic issue is that even if you can afford a wand of fireball, say, that doesn't mean that the authorities permit it to just anyone. Many societies, such as the Hextorian Caliphate, keep basically all magic in the hands of the government and are prone to burning independent spellcasters as witches, but even in "magic-friendly" societies, there are restrictions on spells primarily used to inflict damage or break laws. On the other hand, magic-friendly authorities see no reason to restrict other spells, such as make whole or remove disease, which have little potential to cause harm. (I had a post on the probable legality of differing forms of magic (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=806358))There are four routes to acquiring magic items: 1) The common market. These are items that the civilized governments legally permit to all who can afford them. Such items include healing spells and items, "industrial" spells like mending, make whole, and fabricate, food creators / sustainers, protective spells like endure elements or shield, tongues, comprehend languages, speak with animals, etc. Items based on spells like charm, invisibility, etc, are prohibited, as are offensive spells like fireballs or highly enhanced weapons (the merciful enhancement, on the other hand, is widely permissable). 2) The restricted market: if you earn the trust of the government, you can acquire a special license to buy items that are based on prohibited spells, such as charm, invisibility, fireball, etc. Earning government license to buy such items varies. In some cases, you might be able to bribe corrupt officials into letting you have such a license. In other cases, you might have to sit through a week of instructions and testing. Some might require you to become a government agent, or to at least perform some great service for the government. 3) The black market or wild market: black markets operate against the laws of civilized nations, such as markets run by organized criminals. Wild markets operate outside the laws of civilized nations, such as markets in areas without a stable government. Either way, more potentially harmful spells are available than in the common market (such as the aforementioned invisibility, charm, fireball, etc), but there is also a significant risk of fraud, theft, etc, with no legal recourse. 4) Item creation. Make it yourself. Simple enough.
Mikal 04-08-07, 04:50 PM	Not when they are PC type classes. Farmer not equal to Wizard. Well you've just me a player who's had pcs do just such a thing: Me. There, now can you imagine NPCs who want to? It just may be that your prejudices leaked to your players due to your dislike of such a system, and thus thats why they never brought it up.
Kursk 04-08-07, 07:29 PM	Well you've just me a player who's had pcs do just such a thing: Me. There, now can you imagine NPCs who want to? It just may be that your prejudices leaked to your players due to your dislike of such a system, and thus thats why they never brought it up. Nah, after 30 years of playing and DMing I can't remember this as s/g PCs ever asking to do as a profession. How long you been playing?
Mikal 04-08-07, 07:31 PM	Nah, after 30 years of playing and DMing I can't remember this as s/g PCs ever asking to do as a profession. How long you been playing? It doesn't matter if I've played 30 minutes or 30 years. You say you've never seen a player who's wanted a PC to run a shop as detailed above. You now have, period, end of discussion. In other words it's stupid to assume just because you've personally never met anyone who might not want to do so that no pc, or npc, ever, wouldn't.
Kursk 04-08-07, 07:39 PM	It doesn't matter if I've played 30 minutes or 30 years. You say you've never seen a player who's wanted a PC to run a shop as detailed above. You now have, period, end of discussion. In other words it's stupid to assume just because you've personally never met anyone who might not want to do so that no pc, or npc, ever, wouldn't. Stupid? Really? So I've met one person out of hundreds. Okay. So, I'd say at that proportion there isn't enough in a campaign world to effect a/g. If you are a new player it's n/g to be ashamed of you know. Just curious about your experience.
Mikal 04-08-07, 07:46 PM	Stupid? Really? So I've met one person out of hundreds. Okay. So, I'd say at that proportion there isn't enough in a campaign world to effect a/g. 1 out of "100's" (though I highly doubt you've met hundreds of actual players over the years, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) is still at least .5-1% of the total PC classed beings you've encounter. In a standard dnd world, that's still a good 5 hundred-to-one thousand pcs , if you go by the standard pc class layout according to the DMG. In addition, who said the magic shop owners had to be PC classes? The npc class Adept can EASILY make magic items as well as a PC class, even easier as they get arcane spells on their divine list. In other words, it's foolish and shortsighted to assume that there would never be people who actually do sell magic items within a shop for profit, or on commission work, especially in highly populated areas. If you are a new player it's n/g to be ashamed of you know. Just curious about your experience. Well seeing as I've been a member of this board for at least 4 years (in fact two months before you became active) according to my join date, kind of silly to assume I'm "new" at the game, but hey, you seem to be the type to assume that no one would do something based on your personal experiences, so that's kind of par for the course, isn't it?
Timori 04-08-07, 09:43 PM	I have to admit this is one area of 3.5 that I hate too that seems to have crept in from FR. My campaigns never have (nor ever will have) magic shoppes. Perhaps the odd NPC that would sell something or offer an item as a reward, but that would be an adventure hook. Potions and the like may be available from the local apothecary or whatever, but that's about it.
Hambot 04-09-07, 02:23 AM	I think magic item shops should be about as common as good sports car dealerships. Everybody knows of them, but there's not too many cities of 25,000 people that have one. Getting there is a quest in itself. In my campaign, players can shop, but they have to go to the experts for each type of item, and that's a big trip. The Orcs make the good armour (ie mithral et al), the dwarves make the cool rings and jewelery, elves for bows or longswords or elvin boots, human cities for cheap, useful items that lazy humans would be quick to pick up on (everburning torches, ropes of climbing...) and so on. And the demented old mage up in his tower that can further enchant just about any of these, as long as PC's go off on an information gathering quest for him to uncover more secrets from the previous age. This has lead to a fascinating thing I havent seen before in a d&d game I've played in - the group doesn't split the money. They just have one big pool of cash, and when they figure out a way to obtain a special item for a party member, they pass by that town during other quests once the group have saved up enough. They all take it very seriously, so it feels less like catalogue shopping and more like adventuring when they have to help the dwarves, get paid in mithral bars, then haul those over to the half-orcs to have specialist armour they want. (see theres my preference kicking in - the tolkien races behave very differently in my world so that I'm not reinforcing player preconceptions, and they have to interact with the world to find out just what each race is really good at.) If the players want to get specific gear for their PC, I wont let my own preferences about the subject stop them, because that reduces their fun. I find ways to satisfy the logic that magic item markets must exist but be very rare by making them adventure a fair way to buy particular things so they can only do it every other level of experience, and they're all so excited when they finally get there. Because I mostly use random treasure, this keeps really useful items found out on the adventures special, while allowing the party to chip in to get something cool for those who haven't been lucky recently. When they found a ring of 1 wish in a dragon horde that I actually rolled, they get very excited (crit killed the dragon the round he would have used it too). Given that they wished for 25,000gp and then went on a big shopping quest shows how much PC's like customizing their PC's, and equipment is an important part of that. As long as your players are happy realising their PC's ambitions, without making you choke, you're doing your job as an entertainer.
Dan Hemmens 04-09-07, 08:01 AM	As ever, this is a problem that arises from the fact that D&D is ostensibly set in a medieval society, with kings, guilds, brigands and the like, but is actually set in modern day America. D&D worlds have present-day style economies, where things are bought in shops for cash (although since D&D currency is universally accepted, and frequently seems to be weightless, one might even be forgiven for assuming that they have actual credit cards). Furthermore, the D&D rules aren't designed to model a world, they're designed to balance a competitive skirmish wargame. The cost of a magic item isn't based on how difficult it is to create, it's based on how useful it is in a dungeon (and the same is true of every other commodity in the world).
Ikyotojin 04-09-07, 09:37 AM	I gotta ask why people are getting so wound up about this. Statements like "makes me sick" is one of the ones that make me go "hey - it's a GAME folks! Step back and breath. If it actually upsets you that someone might play a little differently than you do, then you need to consider taking a break from the dice habit." I've run games where magic is so rare that a functional magic user was seen by common folk as a minor diety and by nobles as a serious threat... and there appearance of a SMALL dragon caused a massive panic across an entire kingdom. I've also got a game now where mages are as common as any other profession. They just adventure less and help keep the economy running and the standard of living slightly above that of "we're being oppressed!" mud farmers. Breath folks. It's dice, paper and imagination. No one is saying anyone else's way is right or wrong. We're talking about different opinions and trying to gain a little insight as to how other folks play a game that we all have in common. Some people like chocolate, some like vanilla. I happen to think hot sauce on snickers bars is pretty good. ;)
Holy_Beholder 04-10-07, 06:01 PM	Common Sense Hits the board! My present to you :gift: Cookies aren't awarded that easily you know.