Buying Seige weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buying Seige weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KarmaSlave
02-28-06, 03:24 AM My players are about to embark on establishing a city and then cutting out a country for themselves. In the upcoming battles seige weapons are bound to come into play. The questions that have been raised are: Since the majority of a seige weapon is (or can be) made of wood, why do the players have to buy them at book cost? If they have professional Artillerist engineers, which they can hire for a fraction of a weapon's cost, why can't they cut down trees and build them? I really don't want to give away powerful weapons like this for free but see no fault in this logic. Since I can't provide a compelling reason why they can't build them it comes down to "because I'm the DM and I'd say so." (this is not an acceptable answer, not his case anyway.)

So......Suggestions on modified costs for field construction, or justifications for retaining the book cost on all weapons, other considerations.

Note: I fully intend for the enemies, who are capable, to build in the field if the PCs end up with that option, so it will be done unto them as well. However, I'm looking for someway to maintain a monitary cost so the players will have to budget for their soldiers AND the seige weapons.

In a related topic:cost on weapons if they mine their own ore and have their own blacksmiths, weapon makers, armorers. Pretty much same argument as the seige weapons.

Thoughts?
MarkB
02-28-06, 04:34 AM My first thought is that these engineers shouldn't be hireable at "a fraction of the cost". If they're crafting weapons, they should be charging appropriately for their labour.

And the trees you happen to find in the nearest forest may not be suitable. For siege engines of the quality given in the DMG, you need carefully selected logs, fashioned in a proper sawmill not in the field, then properly seasoned. That wood, and all the bolts, pins, etc. needed to put the siege engines together, are your material costs. If you use inferior materials, the result is a distinctly inferior siege weapon, with penalties to attack and damage and a significant chance of mishap with each shot.
Mock26
02-28-06, 04:49 AM My first thought is that these engineers shouldn't be hireable at "a fraction of the cost" I think you have it wrong. He's saying that the cost of hiring an egineer is a fraction of the cost of purchasing a seige weapon. For example (and I'm making up these numbers as my books are not handy), if it costs 100 gp to purchase a catapult and 5 gp per month to hire an engineer, then why not hire an engineer to build a catapult as it is much cheaper.

Now, for KarmaSlave. Yes, hiring an engineer is cheaper than buying a seige weapon. However, you have to remember that you have to hire lumberjacks (or whatever the medieval equivalent is) to cut down the trees, and you then have to haul the lumber to a sawmill. You then have to have the lumber squared and cut to size. (This will more than likely cost more if you cut it down to size out in the woods.) Once the lumber is cut down to size you have to hire carpenters to put the thing together (the engineer designs these things, he does not actually put them together). Don't forget to include the cost of hiring a blacksmith to craft the hinges and pins and all the other metal bits to hold it together. So, while it is quite cheaper to hire an engineer than to build a seige weapon, there are a lot of other costs involved. I would suggest that if the players want to hire an engineer that you reduce the cost by about 33%.

Just be sure to NOT give them this idea. Let them figure it out on their own. Otherwise, charge them full cost for the items!

Take care and have a great day....

ciao,
john.
torchflame
02-28-06, 04:50 AM yeah that's what I was going to say.

You can't just cut down a tree and build something out of it, even if you do have all the hardware handy. Green Wood isn't a good idea. We're looking at breakage, warping, missfires, lack of accuracy.

If you players need to know why they can't build in the field, tell them that they can. But they'll have to bring all the materials with them, pay commoners to haul it all on wagons, and pay their engineers by the day, double if they're building. These guys could be building a bridge somewhere, they won't tag along with some would-be conquerors unless there was something in it for them. They'd better be getting paid.
MarkB
02-28-06, 05:09 AM I think you have it wrong. He's saying that the cost of hiring an egineer is a fraction of the cost of purchasing a seige weapon.
Yes, that's what I understood him to be saying - and that's wrong. You can't get normal weapons or armour built at a fraction of the cost by hiring an armoursmith and then telling him what to build, so the same should apply to hiring siege engineers to build siege weapons. The total price you pay for the finished goods should stay the same.

However, your summation of the total costs involved does a far better job of illustrating this.
Mock26
02-28-06, 05:21 AM I would definitely give a discount for players who come up with the idea of hiring the blacksmith to make a sword rather than pay for a sword from a weapon shop. My reason for this is that typically when you buy something you do not buy it from the manufacturer. So, the person selling it has to mark up the cost to make a profit. Remember that it does not cost 15 gp worth of material and labor to make a longsword! Nobody would make a sword and then sell it at cost. They would never survive like that!

However, I have always ruled that if characters approach a blacksmith to craft an item they get a discount, but it will take time! Blacksmiths are very busy people. If you want the item rushed then they pay the book costs. With something like seige weapons and such, I would assume that the group is hiring people to work on nothing but the seige weapons, so there would be no back log of work for these people, so there would be a discount on the cost of the weapons built.

Remember, though, that while the engineer designing the weapons may have above average skills, the people building them will more than likely have average skills. If they want better quality workers they will have to pay higher wages. And, there will have to be skill checks for crafting the weapons! A failed skill check will either result in failure during building or failure during firing. (I would make if failure during building or test-firing to keep it simple.) Remember that a failed seige weapon is money lost! Purchasing a ready built seige weapon assures it has been properly built.

Take care and have a great day....

ciao,
john.
Noria Merfolk Mage
02-28-06, 06:44 AM There are rules in Heroes of Battle for constructing Siege engines on the battlefield. Basically an engineer makes craft checks which are measured in GP rather than SP, and a bunch of assistants use Aid Another.
KarmaSlave
03-01-06, 03:07 PM Thanks to one and all.

I now have some valid arguments and alternatives.

The players had already brought up the fact of building on the battlefield and mining their own ore. They don't feel they need to hire lumber jacks as they have (or will have) an army to do this labor.
The shapeing, drying, etc. though gives me a good place to maintain the majority of the cost for siege weapons.
I think I'll let them build in the field for a fraction (less than 50% most likely) of the cost but have secret skill rolls for NPC artillerist engineers to determine usefulness of the resultant engine.
They can then see if the savings was worth the poor performance (as the enemy approaches).

Thanks again.
Terjonwh
03-01-06, 04:10 PM Why not just charge the cost they would pay if they used the craft skill themselves plus the fee for the builder. One thing to keep in mind, the engineer isn't likely to be willing to work to make just one mangonel. He is going to need a substantial amount of work for it to be worth his while. IMO this is should be the only way, outside of building them yourself, to get siege equipment. It's not like you can just go down to "Ye Ol' Trebuchet Shop."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KarmaSlave 02-28-06, 03:24 AM	My players are about to embark on establishing a city and then cutting out a country for themselves. In the upcoming battles seige weapons are bound to come into play. The questions that have been raised are: Since the majority of a seige weapon is (or can be) made of wood, why do the players have to buy them at book cost? If they have professional Artillerist engineers, which they can hire for a fraction of a weapon's cost, why can't they cut down trees and build them? I really don't want to give away powerful weapons like this for free but see no fault in this logic. Since I can't provide a compelling reason why they can't build them it comes down to "because I'm the DM and I'd say so." (this is not an acceptable answer, not his case anyway.) So......Suggestions on modified costs for field construction, or justifications for retaining the book cost on all weapons, other considerations. Note: I fully intend for the enemies, who are capable, to build in the field if the PCs end up with that option, so it will be done unto them as well. However, I'm looking for someway to maintain a monitary cost so the players will have to budget for their soldiers AND the seige weapons. In a related topic:cost on weapons if they mine their own ore and have their own blacksmiths, weapon makers, armorers. Pretty much same argument as the seige weapons. Thoughts?
MarkB 02-28-06, 04:34 AM	My first thought is that these engineers shouldn't be hireable at "a fraction of the cost". If they're crafting weapons, they should be charging appropriately for their labour. And the trees you happen to find in the nearest forest may not be suitable. For siege engines of the quality given in the DMG, you need carefully selected logs, fashioned in a proper sawmill not in the field, then properly seasoned. That wood, and all the bolts, pins, etc. needed to put the siege engines together, are your material costs. If you use inferior materials, the result is a distinctly inferior siege weapon, with penalties to attack and damage and a significant chance of mishap with each shot.
Mock26 02-28-06, 04:49 AM	My first thought is that these engineers shouldn't be hireable at "a fraction of the cost" I think you have it wrong. He's saying that the cost of hiring an egineer is a fraction of the cost of purchasing a seige weapon. For example (and I'm making up these numbers as my books are not handy), if it costs 100 gp to purchase a catapult and 5 gp per month to hire an engineer, then why not hire an engineer to build a catapult as it is much cheaper. Now, for KarmaSlave. Yes, hiring an engineer is cheaper than buying a seige weapon. However, you have to remember that you have to hire lumberjacks (or whatever the medieval equivalent is) to cut down the trees, and you then have to haul the lumber to a sawmill. You then have to have the lumber squared and cut to size. (This will more than likely cost more if you cut it down to size out in the woods.) Once the lumber is cut down to size you have to hire carpenters to put the thing together (the engineer designs these things, he does not actually put them together). Don't forget to include the cost of hiring a blacksmith to craft the hinges and pins and all the other metal bits to hold it together. So, while it is quite cheaper to hire an engineer than to build a seige weapon, there are a lot of other costs involved. I would suggest that if the players want to hire an engineer that you reduce the cost by about 33%. Just be sure to NOT give them this idea. Let them figure it out on their own. Otherwise, charge them full cost for the items! Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
torchflame 02-28-06, 04:50 AM	yeah that's what I was going to say. You can't just cut down a tree and build something out of it, even if you do have all the hardware handy. Green Wood isn't a good idea. We're looking at breakage, warping, missfires, lack of accuracy. If you players need to know why they can't build in the field, tell them that they can. But they'll have to bring all the materials with them, pay commoners to haul it all on wagons, and pay their engineers by the day, double if they're building. These guys could be building a bridge somewhere, they won't tag along with some would-be conquerors unless there was something in it for them. They'd better be getting paid.
MarkB 02-28-06, 05:09 AM	I think you have it wrong. He's saying that the cost of hiring an egineer is a fraction of the cost of purchasing a seige weapon. Yes, that's what I understood him to be saying - and that's wrong. You can't get normal weapons or armour built at a fraction of the cost by hiring an armoursmith and then telling him what to build, so the same should apply to hiring siege engineers to build siege weapons. The total price you pay for the finished goods should stay the same. However, your summation of the total costs involved does a far better job of illustrating this.
Mock26 02-28-06, 05:21 AM	I would definitely give a discount for players who come up with the idea of hiring the blacksmith to make a sword rather than pay for a sword from a weapon shop. My reason for this is that typically when you buy something you do not buy it from the manufacturer. So, the person selling it has to mark up the cost to make a profit. Remember that it does not cost 15 gp worth of material and labor to make a longsword! Nobody would make a sword and then sell it at cost. They would never survive like that! However, I have always ruled that if characters approach a blacksmith to craft an item they get a discount, but it will take time! Blacksmiths are very busy people. If you want the item rushed then they pay the book costs. With something like seige weapons and such, I would assume that the group is hiring people to work on nothing but the seige weapons, so there would be no back log of work for these people, so there would be a discount on the cost of the weapons built. Remember, though, that while the engineer designing the weapons may have above average skills, the people building them will more than likely have average skills. If they want better quality workers they will have to pay higher wages. And, there will have to be skill checks for crafting the weapons! A failed skill check will either result in failure during building or failure during firing. (I would make if failure during building or test-firing to keep it simple.) Remember that a failed seige weapon is money lost! Purchasing a ready built seige weapon assures it has been properly built. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
Noria Merfolk Mage 02-28-06, 06:44 AM	There are rules in Heroes of Battle for constructing Siege engines on the battlefield. Basically an engineer makes craft checks which are measured in GP rather than SP, and a bunch of assistants use Aid Another.
KarmaSlave 03-01-06, 03:07 PM	Thanks to one and all. I now have some valid arguments and alternatives. The players had already brought up the fact of building on the battlefield and mining their own ore. They don't feel they need to hire lumber jacks as they have (or will have) an army to do this labor. The shapeing, drying, etc. though gives me a good place to maintain the majority of the cost for siege weapons. I think I'll let them build in the field for a fraction (less than 50% most likely) of the cost but have secret skill rolls for NPC artillerist engineers to determine usefulness of the resultant engine. They can then see if the savings was worth the poor performance (as the enemy approaches). Thanks again.
Terjonwh 03-01-06, 04:10 PM	Why not just charge the cost they would pay if they used the craft skill themselves plus the fee for the builder. One thing to keep in mind, the engineer isn't likely to be willing to work to make just one mangonel. He is going to need a substantial amount of work for it to be worth his while. IMO this is should be the only way, outside of building them yourself, to get siege equipment. It's not like you can just go down to "Ye Ol' Trebuchet Shop."