calculating party CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

calculating party CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kingdragon1415
03-23-07, 02:34 AM so my party isnt average, we have 8-10 people usualy and im at a lose for how to calculate CR and pit them against creatures and make the battle fair and challenging. any ideas?

3 fighters
2 monks
2 ranger
1 druid
2 socerers

all lvl 6
swallowyersoul
03-23-07, 02:51 AM the best thing to do is design two encounters for each battle.

with 8 pcs you have, essentially, two 4-man parties to prep for. the EL rules in the DMG are built around a 4-man party.

for 6th level characters, build two EL6 encounters for each battle. some examples might include

EL 6 worth of zombies plus another EL 6 worth of zombies for a whole bunch of zombies.

EL 6 worth of zombies plus a level 6 evil cleric.

A level 6 cleric plus his level 6 fighter bodyguard.

what you want to avoid at all costs is the single-monster bad guy. with 8 to 10 PCs whaling away each round, nothing reasonable will stand up more than a round or so. and anything powerful enough to go the distance will have save DCs and damage so high that it kills PCs right and left.

just my 2.7 cents canadian.
Rillek_Denar
03-23-07, 03:02 AM http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm

All you'll ever need on the subject.
kingdragon1415
03-23-07, 03:23 AM so basicly your telling me it would be better to have more lower levl monsters that a few high lvl ones?

But when i do more monsters the battle takes 2 to 3 times as long because of all the other bad guys.
Rillek_Denar
03-23-07, 03:30 AM Better it take longer than that single enemy get off a lucky shot and kill one of the party in one hit.
Empiro
03-23-07, 03:36 AM Better it take longer than that single enemy get off a lucky shot and kill one of the party in one hit.

Correct. But the *real* solution in your case would really to break into two groups and run the games separately. 8-10 is too many to make reasonable progress each session and give each character enough screen time.
Rillek_Denar
03-23-07, 03:41 AM Correct. But the *real* solution in your case would really to break into two groups and run the games separately. 8-10 is too many to make reasonable progress each session and give each character enough screen time.

Well put.
Leilond
03-23-07, 07:57 AM Correct. But the *real* solution in your case would really to break into two groups and run the games separately. 8-10 is too many to make reasonable progress each session and give each character enough screen time.
Totally agree!
More than 6 players in a group are very hard to manage, and battles becomes neverending
rikimaru75
03-23-07, 09:03 AM I had this problem before too. At one point, I have 7 PCs that I had to manage and battles took hours (though in real time...18 seconds). I also agree that splitting the party is probably your best bet. It will save you a ton of anxious, complaning players in the end because the time between their turns will be long, and they'll lose focus.
kingdragon1415
03-23-07, 03:15 PM so here is my other question, do you think would it work if i did more rp than battle?
BW0222
03-23-07, 05:09 PM kingdragon1415

PC parties do not have a challenge rating. Challenge rating (CR) is only for individual creatures. They are then combined to determine an encounter level (ECL). For example, a goblin is CR 1/3. Six CR 1/3 creatures makes an ECL 2 encounter.

PC parties are ranked in terms of average party level (APL). This is found by adding up the total PC levels and dividing by the number of PCs. Some DMs (and RPGA events) allow you to add one to the CR if you have six players. Few consider groups outside of the 4-6 member range.

You then compare the ECL of the encounter to the APL of the party to determine if it is easy (ECL two or more lower than the APL), challenging (ECL is within two or the APL), very difficult (ECL is greater than the APL), or overwhelming (ECL is four or more higher than the APL).

Assuming your group were NPCs... each PC would be a CR 6 creature. You have 8 of them, so that is something like an ECL 10 or so. You can also increase it a bit assuming that your PCs are likely over treasured for normal CR 6 creatures, your druid and ranger have animal companions, etc. I is likely something like an ECL 11 or so encounter.

Thus, they would be an appropriate encounter for a group of 4-5 11th-level PCs. An easy encounter for a group of 12th+ PCs, a very difficult encounter for a group of 8-9th level PCs, and an overwhelming encounter for a group of 7th or lowever PCs.

The entire CR system breaks down with fewer than three PCs or more than six PCs (even three and six cause problems). If you have eight players, the CR system isn't going to help you much. You an try assuming that your APL is considerably higher than 6, but pretty soon it breaks down. Assume that you were APL 9 or so. This means that a 9th-level wizard or a trio of trolls are only a "normal" encounters. However, it isn't hard to see how either encounter could easily take out one or two PCs even if overwhelmed by numbers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kingdragon1415 03-23-07, 02:34 AM	so my party isnt average, we have 8-10 people usualy and im at a lose for how to calculate CR and pit them against creatures and make the battle fair and challenging. any ideas? 3 fighters 2 monks 2 ranger 1 druid 2 socerers all lvl 6
swallowyersoul 03-23-07, 02:51 AM	the best thing to do is design two encounters for each battle. with 8 pcs you have, essentially, two 4-man parties to prep for. the EL rules in the DMG are built around a 4-man party. for 6th level characters, build two EL6 encounters for each battle. some examples might include EL 6 worth of zombies plus another EL 6 worth of zombies for a whole bunch of zombies. EL 6 worth of zombies plus a level 6 evil cleric. A level 6 cleric plus his level 6 fighter bodyguard. what you want to avoid at all costs is the single-monster bad guy. with 8 to 10 PCs whaling away each round, nothing reasonable will stand up more than a round or so. and anything powerful enough to go the distance will have save DCs and damage so high that it kills PCs right and left. just my 2.7 cents canadian.
Rillek_Denar 03-23-07, 03:02 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm All you'll ever need on the subject.
kingdragon1415 03-23-07, 03:23 AM	so basicly your telling me it would be better to have more lower levl monsters that a few high lvl ones? But when i do more monsters the battle takes 2 to 3 times as long because of all the other bad guys.
Rillek_Denar 03-23-07, 03:30 AM	Better it take longer than that single enemy get off a lucky shot and kill one of the party in one hit.
Empiro 03-23-07, 03:36 AM	Better it take longer than that single enemy get off a lucky shot and kill one of the party in one hit. Correct. But the real solution in your case would really to break into two groups and run the games separately. 8-10 is too many to make reasonable progress each session and give each character enough screen time.
Rillek_Denar 03-23-07, 03:41 AM	Correct. But the real solution in your case would really to break into two groups and run the games separately. 8-10 is too many to make reasonable progress each session and give each character enough screen time. Well put.
Leilond 03-23-07, 07:57 AM	Correct. But the real solution in your case would really to break into two groups and run the games separately. 8-10 is too many to make reasonable progress each session and give each character enough screen time. Totally agree! More than 6 players in a group are very hard to manage, and battles becomes neverending
rikimaru75 03-23-07, 09:03 AM	I had this problem before too. At one point, I have 7 PCs that I had to manage and battles took hours (though in real time...18 seconds). I also agree that splitting the party is probably your best bet. It will save you a ton of anxious, complaning players in the end because the time between their turns will be long, and they'll lose focus.
kingdragon1415 03-23-07, 03:15 PM	so here is my other question, do you think would it work if i did more rp than battle?
BW0222 03-23-07, 05:09 PM	kingdragon1415 PC parties do not have a challenge rating. Challenge rating (CR) is only for individual creatures. They are then combined to determine an encounter level (ECL). For example, a goblin is CR 1/3. Six CR 1/3 creatures makes an ECL 2 encounter. PC parties are ranked in terms of average party level (APL). This is found by adding up the total PC levels and dividing by the number of PCs. Some DMs (and RPGA events) allow you to add one to the CR if you have six players. Few consider groups outside of the 4-6 member range. You then compare the ECL of the encounter to the APL of the party to determine if it is easy (ECL two or more lower than the APL), challenging (ECL is within two or the APL), very difficult (ECL is greater than the APL), or overwhelming (ECL is four or more higher than the APL). Assuming your group were NPCs... each PC would be a CR 6 creature. You have 8 of them, so that is something like an ECL 10 or so. You can also increase it a bit assuming that your PCs are likely over treasured for normal CR 6 creatures, your druid and ranger have animal companions, etc. I is likely something like an ECL 11 or so encounter. Thus, they would be an appropriate encounter for a group of 4-5 11th-level PCs. An easy encounter for a group of 12th+ PCs, a very difficult encounter for a group of 8-9th level PCs, and an overwhelming encounter for a group of 7th or lowever PCs. The entire CR system breaks down with fewer than three PCs or more than six PCs (even three and six cause problems). If you have eight players, the CR system isn't going to help you much. You an try assuming that your APL is considerably higher than 6, but pretty soon it breaks down. Assume that you were APL 9 or so. This means that a 9th-level wizard or a trio of trolls are only a "normal" encounters. However, it isn't hard to see how either encounter could easily take out one or two PCs even if overwhelmed by numbers.