Calculating Party Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Calculating Party Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
paulb104
02-24-06, 12:53 PM Hey :)

This has been bugging me for a while. I've got a large group of players. My question is how do you calculate the party's Effective Level when there are many pc's?

At the moment, there are eight characters and all are forth level. I know that four pc's at 4th level is EL4, but there's no way this party is EL4!

Using the rules from the old Living City campaign, I would add up the character levels (inclusive of "monster" class levels) as well as cohorts and henchmen. Then I would divide eight (pc's) into total levels (thirty two). This produces the Average Party Level (APL). Because APL consists of eight creatures, add two to the APL. Because the pc's can rest and heal between encounters (generally true in my campaign), add one to the APL. The total of these steps produces the Effective Party Level (EPL) of 7.

1 Does anyone have issues with this?

2 Animal companions do not count as part of those calculations because they're class features. Right?

3 Cohorts calculate in, but only get half the XP of their Leader. Right? (i don't know about henchmen offhand).

Should you be curious, yes combat does take an overly long time. Most of the players complain about this but none of the players wants the group split into two play groups...

Thanks!

Paul
Pellanor
02-24-06, 01:10 PM 1 Does anyone have issues with this?It's pretty accurate.

2 Animal companions do not count as part of those calculations because they're class features. Right?That would be right.

3 Cohorts calculate in, but only get half the XP of their Leader. Right? (i don't know about henchmen offhand).Nope, they are given through a feat, and as souch you don't take them into account.

Here's a couple pieces of advise:
1. Just because they have twice the numbers doesn't mean they can take on an EL two higher. They may not have certain spells, or the ability to bypass damage reduction that a higher level party would. Typically if the party is twice as large you want to increase the number of opponents instead of increasing their CR.
2. Just because they can rest between encounters doesn't mean that they can deal with higher CR encounters. Same reason as above. Also the ability to rest between encounters highley favores Spellcaster, Psions (especially psions), and anybody with a lot of X/Day abilities. If you have an "Ultimiate Ability of DOOOOOM!!!" that can only be used once per day, and you only have one encounter per day, then the per day limit isn't doing much. It also makes feats such as "Extra Rage" Useless.

Hope that helps.
Zherog
02-24-06, 01:16 PM 1 Does anyone have issues with this?

I'll go with a qualified yes. If you think that sounds right for your group, then it is.

2 Animal companions do not count as part of those calculations because they're class features. Right?

Correct; the same is true of familiars.

3 Cohorts calculate in, but only get half the XP of their Leader. Right? (i don't know about henchmen offhand).

Cohorts don't draw XP from what the group earns; they instead gain an amount of XP equal to a percentage of their Leader's XP (assuming, of course, you're talking about cohorts gained from the Leadership feat).

The formula is: amount of XP granted to leader X leader's level / cohort's level

Should you be curious, yes combat does take an overly long time. Most of the players complain about this but none of the players wants the group split into two play groups...

You have some options available to you to speed things up a little bit once in a while. I often recommend using lots of lesser CR critters to challenge a party; in your case, though, the opposite (one or two high CR critters) has distinct advantages - in particular, it'll speed things up.

Think about when you plan encounters out. Instead of sticking 5 goblins in a room, can you stick in 3 and give them class levels? Instead of putting in three assassin vines that cover a wall, can you instead advance one assassin vine so that it's mostly big enough for what you want?

These sorts of things for non-boss encounters will help you speed things up.

There's a few metagame things you can do, too.

* Before an encounter, figure out tactics. If there's a spellcaster among the bad guys, write down what his most likely spells to cast are (and in what order). This allows you to quickly determine what the bad guys do; the less time spent on the bad guy's actions, the faster combat seems to the players, because they're the ones doing things that way.
* Encourage your players to think ahead, so they have an idea what they want to do when it's their turn. For example, my group is 5 PCs, one hireling, and one cohort. I have two players who are notorious for not even thinking about what they're going to do until it's their turn. Making matters worse, both are spellcasters - so as they flip through their spell lists, they inevitably have to open up the books and read what a spell does. Getting them to begin planning a bit in advance helped speed our game up tremendously. To facilitate this, I post the PCs initiative order, and fill in the bad guy's Init on the list as they go. This way, they always know how much time they have until their next turn.
* When you can, award treasure after the session. For example, how many gold pieces were in the goblins' pockets doesn't likely impact the next encounter. By saving these details for the end of the session, you can more quickly get to the next encounter. You have to strike a balance, though - if there's something useful (like a shiny new sword or better armor, etc) then you need to let them know so they can decide to use it or not. Putting aside trivial treasure until the end, though, will save you a surprising amount of time between encounters.

So there's a few more tips for you, Paul. :)
meshon
02-24-06, 03:51 PM I feel your pain! I have seven players in my group who's characters are between 10th and 13th level. Coming up with appropriate challenges has never been easy since large numbers of lower level enemies takes a long time to fight through. I try to focus on making the environment challenging, rather than relying too much on combat. CR is only minimally useful in these sorts of situations.

i.e You have only twelve hours before the gate closes and a blizzard has set in making the pass you must travel very treacherous. You know that the four insane priests of the Blood-God wait somewhere between you and the mountain fortress.

So I have no idea what the CR is, the ambushers come to about EL 11, but I just try to keep the story in mind and hope the players will come up with grand ideas. They often do!
fawr
02-24-06, 07:18 PM What you have is 2 parties both of which are 4 level 4 characters. So you should put them up against 2 CR 4 challanges. Since the 2 PC parties work together so should the 2 CR 4 challanges. When you award XP you will be giving out 2 lots CR 4 XP, but it will be divided by 8 instead of by 4.

As others have said that even though 2 CR 4 creatures are a theoretically equal to a CR 6 enemy you don't want to use a single enemy as it can focus its attacks on a single PC too effectivly, and may have some magical defence that the players are too low level to overcome.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
paulb104 02-24-06, 12:53 PM	Hey :) This has been bugging me for a while. I've got a large group of players. My question is how do you calculate the party's Effective Level when there are many pc's? At the moment, there are eight characters and all are forth level. I know that four pc's at 4th level is EL4, but there's no way this party is EL4! Using the rules from the old Living City campaign, I would add up the character levels (inclusive of "monster" class levels) as well as cohorts and henchmen. Then I would divide eight (pc's) into total levels (thirty two). This produces the Average Party Level (APL). Because APL consists of eight creatures, add two to the APL. Because the pc's can rest and heal between encounters (generally true in my campaign), add one to the APL. The total of these steps produces the Effective Party Level (EPL) of 7. 1 Does anyone have issues with this? 2 Animal companions do not count as part of those calculations because they're class features. Right? 3 Cohorts calculate in, but only get half the XP of their Leader. Right? (i don't know about henchmen offhand). Should you be curious, yes combat does take an overly long time. Most of the players complain about this but none of the players wants the group split into two play groups... Thanks! Paul
Pellanor 02-24-06, 01:10 PM	1 Does anyone have issues with this?It's pretty accurate. 2 Animal companions do not count as part of those calculations because they're class features. Right?That would be right. 3 Cohorts calculate in, but only get half the XP of their Leader. Right? (i don't know about henchmen offhand).Nope, they are given through a feat, and as souch you don't take them into account. Here's a couple pieces of advise: 1. Just because they have twice the numbers doesn't mean they can take on an EL two higher. They may not have certain spells, or the ability to bypass damage reduction that a higher level party would. Typically if the party is twice as large you want to increase the number of opponents instead of increasing their CR. 2. Just because they can rest between encounters doesn't mean that they can deal with higher CR encounters. Same reason as above. Also the ability to rest between encounters highley favores Spellcaster, Psions (especially psions), and anybody with a lot of X/Day abilities. If you have an "Ultimiate Ability of DOOOOOM!!!" that can only be used once per day, and you only have one encounter per day, then the per day limit isn't doing much. It also makes feats such as "Extra Rage" Useless. Hope that helps.
Zherog 02-24-06, 01:16 PM	1 Does anyone have issues with this? I'll go with a qualified yes. If you think that sounds right for your group, then it is. 2 Animal companions do not count as part of those calculations because they're class features. Right? Correct; the same is true of familiars. 3 Cohorts calculate in, but only get half the XP of their Leader. Right? (i don't know about henchmen offhand). Cohorts don't draw XP from what the group earns; they instead gain an amount of XP equal to a percentage of their Leader's XP (assuming, of course, you're talking about cohorts gained from the Leadership feat). The formula is: amount of XP granted to leader X leader's level / cohort's level Should you be curious, yes combat does take an overly long time. Most of the players complain about this but none of the players wants the group split into two play groups... You have some options available to you to speed things up a little bit once in a while. I often recommend using lots of lesser CR critters to challenge a party; in your case, though, the opposite (one or two high CR critters) has distinct advantages - in particular, it'll speed things up. Think about when you plan encounters out. Instead of sticking 5 goblins in a room, can you stick in 3 and give them class levels? Instead of putting in three assassin vines that cover a wall, can you instead advance one assassin vine so that it's mostly big enough for what you want? These sorts of things for non-boss encounters will help you speed things up. There's a few metagame things you can do, too. * Before an encounter, figure out tactics. If there's a spellcaster among the bad guys, write down what his most likely spells to cast are (and in what order). This allows you to quickly determine what the bad guys do; the less time spent on the bad guy's actions, the faster combat seems to the players, because they're the ones doing things that way. * Encourage your players to think ahead, so they have an idea what they want to do when it's their turn. For example, my group is 5 PCs, one hireling, and one cohort. I have two players who are notorious for not even thinking about what they're going to do until it's their turn. Making matters worse, both are spellcasters - so as they flip through their spell lists, they inevitably have to open up the books and read what a spell does. Getting them to begin planning a bit in advance helped speed our game up tremendously. To facilitate this, I post the PCs initiative order, and fill in the bad guy's Init on the list as they go. This way, they always know how much time they have until their next turn. * When you can, award treasure after the session. For example, how many gold pieces were in the goblins' pockets doesn't likely impact the next encounter. By saving these details for the end of the session, you can more quickly get to the next encounter. You have to strike a balance, though - if there's something useful (like a shiny new sword or better armor, etc) then you need to let them know so they can decide to use it or not. Putting aside trivial treasure until the end, though, will save you a surprising amount of time between encounters. So there's a few more tips for you, Paul. :)
meshon 02-24-06, 03:51 PM	I feel your pain! I have seven players in my group who's characters are between 10th and 13th level. Coming up with appropriate challenges has never been easy since large numbers of lower level enemies takes a long time to fight through. I try to focus on making the environment challenging, rather than relying too much on combat. CR is only minimally useful in these sorts of situations. i.e You have only twelve hours before the gate closes and a blizzard has set in making the pass you must travel very treacherous. You know that the four insane priests of the Blood-God wait somewhere between you and the mountain fortress. So I have no idea what the CR is, the ambushers come to about EL 11, but I just try to keep the story in mind and hope the players will come up with grand ideas. They often do!
fawr 02-24-06, 07:18 PM	What you have is 2 parties both of which are 4 level 4 characters. So you should put them up against 2 CR 4 challanges. Since the 2 PC parties work together so should the 2 CR 4 challanges. When you award XP you will be giving out 2 lots CR 4 XP, but it will be divided by 8 instead of by 4. As others have said that even though 2 CR 4 creatures are a theoretically equal to a CR 6 enemy you don't want to use a single enemy as it can focus its attacks on a single PC too effectivly, and may have some magical defence that the players are too low level to overcome.