Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thesen 08-22-05, 07:47 AM	Let me start off by saying, although I have played D&D since Advanced 2E, I am fairly new to the posts, so I apologize if this is a repeated thread you are all sick of answering. I could use your help, though. I just want to know if you guys play with called shots, have rules for them, and what you think about them. I have tried them out with a loose set of rules I concocted for 3E and now that I have started playing again (3.5), my players are asking about their precious ability to down my awesome baddies. Personally I like the rules and want to meet my players half-way. I'd just like to hear from some other DMs. Perhaps some of you have game-tested some rules and found they worked/failed. Listed here is a VERY rough idea I had for called shots. Let me know what you think, or please share your own experiences / ideas. Leg / Arm Shot: -8 to atk -Leg: A successful leg shot incurs a movement penalty of 5'. -Arm: A Successful arm shot incurs a -2 to atk rolls using said arm. Hand shot: -12 to atk -Target is disarmed automatically and the hand is rendered useless until healed. -OR -4 to atk rolls with some sort of roll to hold onto the affected weapon. Head shot: -12 to atk (This one SUCKS!) -I had a list that I have lost since with random effects rolled with percentile dice. They were things like blindness, deafness, being stunned for a round, death.....you get the idea. Critical called shots: Limb is possibly severed....(dunno' about this one)
Nurgan_the_drunked 08-22-05, 07:57 AM	As a general reference, called shots are a pretty big no-no, and are often unbalanced in 3.5. There are plenty of monsters which you don't have a real problem hitting, and you are giving them the free ability to maximize on this. Part of the problem can be summed up in two words: True strike. A 3th level wizard can happily let his +23 get turned into a +15 to hit, and stop a monster using their main wepons, which is far beyong the range of a standard 1st level spell. On the other side of this is that you as DM can help shoot one of your player's hands off. A guaranteed way to annoy them, while being a sensible tactic for the enemy. Common answer to giving called shots: You want to hit the head and do more damage? Power attack You want to cut their hand so they drop a weapon? Disarm You want to hit their legs and put them on the floor? Trip
High Octane 08-22-05, 09:11 AM	Called shots are meant for a roleplaying game based on reality. Not D&D.
Hugin 08-22-05, 10:25 AM	MC uses Called Shots as descriptive effects only and proceeds with attack and damage as normal. The damage done just tells you how well it went. I think that 3E replaced called shots with the many combat manuevers, as shown by Nurgan: Common answer to giving called shots: You want to hit the head and do more damage? Power attack You want to cut their hand so they drop a weapon? Disarm You want to hit their legs and put them on the floor? Trip We tried a Called Shot system before, but found it both unbalanced and unnessessary.
Illion the Red 08-22-05, 10:41 AM	Allowing called shots to damage specific areas negates a significant portion of the hit point construct. Very few specific creatures have location-specific hit points, but beyond that, hit points exist in an "overall" manner rather than any distributed fashion. If you allow damage to specific locations because it is logical or makes sense, players will take called shots at every creature's head to maximize the amount of "called shot" damage. "I did 25 points to its head. That's got to be at least a quarter of its hit points,and the head can't have more than a quarter of the creatures hit points, so it must be dead, right?" The essential problem is that the D&D combat and hit point system is playtested and validated as it currently exists. Changing how it functions will unbalance the system. Most likely, by adding a "called shot" system, you will make combat more deadly and quick. This is not an advantage for your players. They are in a numbers game and are on the wrong end of the odds. The numerous sets of creatures that your players face will cripple your PCs with called shots over the course of several encounters whereas your players may only cripple some of the creatures in any given encounter. Any change that increases the deadliness or randomness of combat is a change that makes for shorter PC lifespans.
Shy_Guy 08-22-05, 12:33 PM	Allowing called shots to damage specific areas negates a significant portion of the hit point construct. Very few specific creatures have location-specific hit points, but beyond that, hit points exist in an "overall" manner rather than any distributed fashion. If you allow damage to specific locations because it is logical or makes sense, players will take called shots at every creature's head to maximize the amount of "called shot" damage. "I did 25 points to its head. That's got to be at least a quarter of its hit points,and the head can't have more than a quarter of the creatures hit points, so it must be dead, right?" The essential problem is that the D&D combat and hit point system is playtested and validated as it currently exists. Changing how it functions will unbalance the system. Most likely, by adding a "called shot" system, you will make combat more deadly and quick. This is not an advantage for your players. They are in a numbers game and are on the wrong end of the odds. The numerous sets of creatures that your players face will cripple your PCs with called shots over the course of several encounters whereas your players may only cripple some of the creatures in any given encounter. Any change that increases the deadliness or randomness of combat is a change that makes for shorter PC lifespans. ...yeah, what he said...
Bruunwald 08-22-05, 01:18 PM	The essential problem is that the D&D combat and hit point system is playtested and validated as it currently exists. Changing how it functions will unbalance the system. Most likely, by adding a "called shot" system, you will make combat more deadly and quick. This is not an advantage for your players. They are in a numbers game and are on the wrong end of the odds. The numerous sets of creatures that your players face will cripple your PCs with called shots over the course of several encounters whereas your players may only cripple some of the creatures in any given encounter. Any change that increases the deadliness or randomness of combat is a change that makes for shorter PC lifespans. Though you're right, you're forgetting something very important: some people may WANT that. I know a guy who loves the notion of possibly being felled by a single blow in the first battle. He's both a realism junky and a character generation freak. Admittedly, he's a rarity. I have a called shot system. We never use it. Possibly that's its best function: it's so intimidating that the players have thus far declined its use, even though some of them demanded the creation of the rule. It works like this: Name the area being targeted. Now decide the size category of that target (for instance, a dragon's eye might be considered Small, about the size of a very short gnome). Add a modifier from the table below to the target creature's AC, based on the area's size. Small +4 Tiny +8 Diminutive +12 Fine +16 Roll to hit. If the attack is successful, add the same modifer as bonus damage (add before computing critical damage). Of course, this doesn't tell you if the target is crippled or disarmed, as others have pointed out. But I don't think most people are trying to target sensitive areas because they want to disarm or trip anybody. That's really avoiding the whole point, which is that the player wants to feel as though he hit the bullseye and inflicted the killing blow. You may flame me, and yes, I know critical hits are supposed to simulate this, but my players demanded it, and I am an accommodating man, and I admit that sometimes I also feel that the current system is in some ways too abstract. But like I said, I've still never used this rule. It detracts so much from my players' ability to hit, that as of yet, nobody has chanced it. Plus, they know that once they do, I'll begin to use it against them, as well.
fish_heads 08-22-05, 01:50 PM	Actually, I have used called shots in my game as well. Basically, rather than giving them a penalty to hit (since any high level martial character would gladly take even a large penalty for the oportunity to, sy, chop off a head), I use miss chance. Although it's unrealistic, I basically rule "all or nothing" for the miss chance - there is no chance of aiming for the head and hitting the body, you either hit the head or you miss. Also, I often base the miss chance on distance (if it's ranged) and weapon. Hitting a creature in the leg with a rapier will naturally be easier than with a dagger, or a spiked chain, etc. On the whole, I basically make it possible but severely disadvantageous. For example, aiming for the eyes with a longbow from 60 feet would never be less than a 25% miss chance. Of course, that's just off the top of my head - I've got my actual (tested) notes on it buried somewhere in my stuff...
Illion the Red 08-22-05, 01:57 PM	Though you're right, you're forgetting something very important: some people may WANT that. I know a guy who loves the notion of possibly being felled by a single blow in the first battle. He's both a realism junky and a character generation freak. Admittedly, he's a rarity. Indeed, some may want such a system, and if that is really what they want, it's their game, so have at it. I sought to point out the consequences, but, from your response, I gather that you already understood that. :) I have a called shot system. We never use it. Possibly that's its best function: it's so intimidating that the players have thus far declined its use, even though some of them demanded the creation of the rule. It works like this: Name the area being targeted. Now decide the size category of that target (for instance, a dragon's eye might be considered Small, about the size of a very short gnome). Add a modifier from the table below to the target creature's AC, based on the area's size. Small +4 Tiny +8 Diminutive +12 Fine +16 Roll to hit. If the attack is successful, add the same modifer as bonus damage (add before computing critical damage). Of course, this doesn't tell you if the target is crippled or disarmed, as others have pointed out. But I don't think most people are trying to target sensitive areas because they want to disarm or trip anybody. That's really avoiding the whole point, which is that the player wants to feel as though he hit the bullseye and inflicted the killing blow. You may flame me, and yes, I know critical hits are supposed to simulate this, but my players demanded it, and I am an accommodating man, and I admit that sometimes I also feel that the current system is in some ways too abstract. But like I said, I've still never used this rule. It detracts so much from my players' ability to hit, that as of yet, nobody has chanced it. Plus, they know that once they do, I'll begin to use it against them, as well. Flame you? Perish the thought. Flaming is a pointless exercise and entirely disruptive to intelligent communication and discourse. The system you outline here seems largely akin to a different form of Power Attack. Instead of reducing your attack bonus to trade for damage, you are increasing the AC in trade for damage. Mechanically, it's the same trade-off. There are a few differences (set amounts based on size, no two-handed weapon modifier, no feat requirement) but I see it as largely the same. How did it work in playtesting? As for attacking to hit sensitive areas, I can see your comparing it to a critical hit, but I find attacking sensative areas (on purpose) to be more the purview of the sneak attack. I see critical hits as more of a "lucky shot" to a sensitive area rather than a planned move. Mind you, Improved Critical adds a complication to my thoughts, but that is neither here nore there.
Inigo Carmine 08-22-05, 02:15 PM	Called shots are a munchkin attempt to negate the HP system. HP are supposed to be a measure of how hard something is to kill. It represent s the fact that, yes, you are aiming for his head, but since that hit didn't drop them to -10 HP, their head is still attached to the body, and since you didn't even drop them below 1 HP, you didn't do much "real" damage to them at all. Making it easier and faster to kill someone through called shots makes the HP system worthless, because everyone will just be making called shots all of the time. Also, casters (especially wizards and sorcerers) will become hyper-ultra-super-catastrophically rediculously overpowered (as opposed to just moderately overpowered like they are now) because their lack of HP compared to warrior types will mean they're not at a disadvantage with called shot rules, and they have the ability to use things like truestrike, which will overcome virtually any called shot penalty. If you want to play a "realistic" game with magic and dragons etc, there's an easy fix: no one gains any HP after first level. Being able to decide between taking a -12 penalty to instant kill someone by hitting them in the head, or just doing 10 damage without a penalty to drop them is realistic. Called shots with a scaling HP system is not realistic.
tarkin 08-22-05, 02:18 PM	Your system looks poorly thought out. I would instead use the standard systems for called shots found in the DMG. Why duplicate trip and call it a an attack to the legs? That is what Trip IS. For one thing, penalties to AC are WORTHLESS in a game that has things like True Strike. That is just the easiest explanation, but the truth is even without spells like that it would STILl be a bad idea. The basic system is set up so that after you hit 5th level, your highest attack is pretty much a guaranteed hit,while your lowest is a likely failure. Thus Power Attack must be applied to all your attacks. Otherwise you get abuses such as taking a -12 on your first hit, but going for a general body shot on the rest. You need to look at the official systems that do what you want: general system: Power Attack. -1 to hit, for every +2 to damage you are trying to do, but not making it all/nothing? -10 to hit, +20 to damage. Deadly blow: Coup De Grace. Power attack not good enough? Take your time and kill them with a single blow. You should also be able to blind someone with a similar method. Specializaed Deadly blow that does not require a helpless target: Assasin's Death attack. Legs: Trip. General torso vital areas: Sneak Attack. Read the description, it is aiming for a vital spot. permanent leg blow: Hamstring. Want to aim for their legs so they have problems moving long term? Be a Rogue and take the feat Hamstring. Weapon: Sunder. Aim for their weapon Weapon hand: Disarm. head shot: Monk's Stunning attack.
Bruunwald 08-22-05, 04:17 PM	Indeed, some may want such a system, and if that is really what they want, it's their game, so have at it. I sought to point out the consequences, but, from your response, I gather that you already understood that. :) Flame you? Perish the thought. Flaming is a pointless exercise and entirely disruptive to intelligent communication and discourse. The system you outline here seems largely akin to a different form of Power Attack. Instead of reducing your attack bonus to trade for damage, you are increasing the AC in trade for damage. Mechanically, it's the same trade-off. There are a few differences (set amounts based on size, no two-handed weapon modifier, no feat requirement) but I see it as largely the same. How did it work in playtesting? As for attacking to hit sensitive areas, I can see your comparing it to a critical hit, but I find attacking sensative areas (on purpose) to be more the purview of the sneak attack. I see critical hits as more of a "lucky shot" to a sensitive area rather than a planned move. Mind you, Improved Critical adds a complication to my thoughts, but that is neither here nore there. Power Critical would seem to cut into that as well. It provides a +4 to the roll to confirm the crit. My favorite new feat, that. (In fact, I've considered making my called shot rule a feat, but my feeling was this was not necessary, since I designed it really to discourage its use.) I think the problem with the critical hit for some of the players is that it's too abstract, and like you said, relies on luck, which frustrates them. They want to feel like they're more in control of what their characters are actually doing. Hence, some complain about wanting such a rule. I play tested it alone, and it seemed to make sense to me. It was definitely an impairment at lower levels. Not so much for higher level fighters, obviously, until you are trying to shoot the eye out of a dire rat, but come on, who does that anyway? To me it seems like it would be better for trick shots in tournaments, something for showing off. But hey, they wanted a rule, and I provided them with one. One they're too afraid to waste the shot on. The part that did seem well-balanced to me was the additional damage. Those are reasonable rates as far as being able to expect an instant kill if you put an arrow, say, though the eye of our dire rat friend, while providing the chance of such if your hit was also a critical, against something much more powerful, without guaranteeing it. It definitely favors larger creatures, since they'll tend to have more hit points, yet suffer less damage from a successful strike. In that way, it has a nice balance, and rewards the hardest shots, even if they're not the most critical you could attempt. Still, given many of the other rules, a called shot is superlative. But I see there are already others lining up to tell me what a dork I am, so 'nuff said.
Sinaz 08-22-05, 04:49 PM	I use a simple called shot system in my campaign and my players love it, cause the monk especially can aim to disable creatures, which allows me to throw higher level creatures at the party and enjoy watching them overcome the creatures through fun strategy. My system uses the DMG's specific damage chart to some extent, but it goes like this: A successful called shot deals the normal damage in HP, but also inflicts a wound on the body part. Wounds come in two varieties: a bleeding wound and a fracture (dealt by cutting/piercing or bludgenoning weapons respectively.) A bleeding wound deals -1 to the capabilities of the body part, and continues to sap -1HP/round until stabalized (using a heal). A fracture deals -2 to the capabilities until set with a heal, which reverts it to -1. Wound effectss stack, and naturally heal +1 of wound penalties per day of rest per wounded body part. (note: bleeding does not stack... -1 per round per body part... so three bleeding wounds in one arm still bleeds -1 per round, but a bleeding wound in the arm, and one in the leg is -2 per round.) Called shot suffers -2 for core body, -4 for head, legs, or arms, and -8 for details (like the eye, or the weapon hand.) Normal range penalties are exponential... so like, aiming for the eye with a longbow at 200 feet is a penalty of -(8^2)= -64. Good luck. And of course, there's some common sense involved... you can't really poke an eye with a great-axe... so the best you can call is a head shot. Crits sever the limb, except for the head, which requires that instant kill triple 20 or if the crit damage is enough to kill the creature... then we RP the severed head... cause it makes sense.
Leewei 08-22-05, 05:06 PM	As long as D&D has True Strike, called shots are a very dubious game mechanism. To mitigate the abuse that this system might cause, I'd suggest the following: 1) All Called Shots have a penalty (examples: -8 torso or leg; -16 head or arm; -24 hand). Insight bonuses will not add to a called shot. A Called Shot has no effect against any creature not subject to critical hits. Any effect which negates a critical hit has an equal chance to negate the additional effect of a Called Shot. 2) Introduce a Feat: Improved Called Shot(Weapon) [General, Fighter] Requirements: Base Attack Bonus +8 or above, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus(Weapon). Description: The character halves the penalty for Called Shots with a single weapon type. This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, it must be taken for a different weapon type. The effects do not stack. 3) Okay, now the fun part. Assign minor effects for each location. These effects will have a Fortitude save associated with them equal to the BAB + 1/2 Strength modifier of the attacker. Note that these effects are all more easily resisted and generally less impressive than a good Power Attack or critical hit. Hand: Save or drop your weapon. For two handed weapons, weapon instead becomes unready. Attacking a shield hand or arm is not possible until a shield is destroyed. (Exception: A buckler can be made unready.) Arm: Save or suffer a penalty to all attacks with this arm next round. The penalty equals the damage dealt with the called shot. Leg: Save or be unable to take a 5' Step on your next turn. Torso(Bludgeon): Save or take nonlethal damage equal to attacker's Strength bonus. Torso(Piercing): Save or bleed 1 HP per round for a number of rounds equal to attacker's Strength bonus. Any healing or First Aid will stop this bleeding immediately. Torso(Slashing): Save or take extra lethal damage equal to attacker's Strength bonus /2. Head: Save or helmet is knocked off. Any other headwear is automatically knocked off. If defender has no helmet, save or become nauseated for one round.
StormKnight 08-22-05, 07:03 PM	If you use called shots, it becomes ridiculously easy for one high level fighter to score called shots against another equally high level fighter. A character's ability to defend herself is represented by her increase in HIT POINTS. By circumventing HP, you circumvent a characters ability to defend herself.
Sinaz 08-22-05, 07:16 PM	If you use called shots, it becomes ridiculously easy for one high level fighter to score called shots against another equally high level fighter. A character's ability to defend herself is represented by her increase in HIT POINTS. By circumventing HP, you circumvent a characters ability to defend herself. When we play my system, the increase in HP allows the player to absorb more injuries. Since the weapons are still doing typical damage, increasing as neccessary from very strong opponents, higher level fighters are able to soak more wounds and suffer more bloodloss and keep fighting. Plus, as I forgot to mention (and this makes a huge difference) Fort checks are made of DC 10+ attackers BAB to avoid wounds. So they aren't very broken... at least, we haveen't encountered any broken game play thus far. We like it... and we haven't 'circumvented' any defense yet. We've had our players do some rad things though... like the monk twisting an arm out of the shoulder socket, the ranger hitting a bugbear with an arrow, wounding him, tracking him, and finding the bugbear again with draining hitpoints still ready to fight... It's all been very dramatic since we've started using this system.
Edymnion 08-22-05, 07:29 PM	I'll put it to you the same way I put it to my players. "This is third edition. Anything a player can do, the badguys, both monster and NPCs can also do. If you want called shots, it also means that the baddies are going to be able to use called shots against you. And I will use called shots in EVERY instance where they stand even half a chance of actually hitting." Which basically means it boils down to something that is so weak that its not worth using (because the players are too scared of losing their own characters to want it in the game), or the players die every two or three encounters because the badguys make called shots to the head. Since I instituted this rule, and they realized I ment it, I have yet to have a single player push for Called Shots. Especially not when I threaten to use the Kobold Squad, which consists of 20 level 1 kobold sorcerers with True Strike, crossbows, cover, and a penchant for making called shots to whatever part of the body the system in question assigns greatest damage to. Usually, called shots to the head. There are 20 of them just because, by the odds, one of them every round will roll a natural 20 on their called shot to the head. Ouch.
Sinaz 08-22-05, 07:34 PM	Since I instituted this rule, and they realized I ment it, I have yet to have a single player push for Called Shots. Especially not when I threaten to use the Kobold Squad, which consists of 20 level 1 kobold sorcerers with True Strike, crossbows, cover, and a penchant for making called shots to whatever part of the body the system in question assigns greatest damage to. Usually, called shots to the head. There are 20 of them just because, by the odds, one of them every round will roll a natural 20 on their called shot to the head. Ouch. Well don't you just sap the fun out of it.
Count Arioch the 28th 08-22-05, 07:46 PM	If I was going to institute teh called shot rule, I would use the optional rules for damage to specific body parts in the DMG. For example, a wound to the head gives a -1 penalty to all skill checks and attack rolls, a wound to the arm gives -1 to hit and damage, and so forth. I would refrain from giving anything more than a minor bonus though for such an action, and don't use called shots in my game at all, even in my weakened form.
Abulafia 08-22-05, 10:20 PM	Called shots do not peacefully co-exist with the BAB/AC/HP combat system. If you want them, some pretty drastic rule changes are in order. First, you pretty much have to take True Strike right out of your game. Otherwise, any penalty of -20 or less is meaningless to a 1st-level arcane caster, and any greater penalty makes combat skill moot as combatants race to roll 20. Edymnion was not "sapping the fun" out of called shots -- he was pointing out why simplistic called-shot systems are illogical. Kobold sorcerers with crossbows would rule the world. Next, you need to create your mechanic. You could try breaking out AC and HP for each body region: Bruunwald had the right idea here. For a medium creature, the torso, legs, and arms are Tiny, the head is Diminutive. HP is a little harder: assigning HD fractions to each area doesn't work that well (a 1st-level wizard has 4 hp -- assign 1 hp to torso, 1 each to two legs, 1 to his head . . . do his arms have 0 hp?) You could increase each class's HD until this makes sense, or assign hp ad hoc to each part. When the next level arrives, you have to figure how increased hp factor in to each region -- if at all. Players want called shots for a number of reasons: they may want more "realism" (at least as it applies to other characters); they may want their specific actions to have consequences; they may want their characters to be able to do cool tricks or have a chance in difficult battles. But when you really think about what a called shot system offers, the workability of a feat like Power Attack becomes apparent. The next time your player wants to swing for his opponent's head, tell him to take a penalty to his attack and add it to the damage roll. He's happy, and you don't have to rewrite the rules books. For the determined: Cyberpunk 2020 had good rules for realistically lethal combat. I experimented with adapting Cyberpunk rules for D&D play once. A lot of work is involved, and your players will almost certainly die before reaching 5th level, but no one will complain that it isn't realistic.
Thesen 08-23-05, 12:36 AM	Ok...perhaps I didn't explain enough, so here goes: I do not want to institute this rule for quick kills, head decapitation, or for anyone to abuse the system. The purpose of it would be to allow players to do cool, heroic thiings that you see in the movies without doing 100 points of damage first. What I mean by this is shooting the "Scepter of Dragon Control" out of the evil wizard's hand before he summons a nasty ally. Notice I said "shoot." The feats you all suggested make perfect sense, though I can't recall reading rules about disarming with a ranged weapon or the like. Let me know if you have any ideas for something like this. Also trip attacks can not be done with a bow, so technically an awesome ranger with ranged weapons focus can't shoot a fleeing enemy in leg to slow him down? Now, I know the game mechanics neglect a certain amount of realism, but I would like something that offers the players an option to do something a bit more cool than "Roll....ok you hit and do 9 damage to the orc's shoulder. Good Job!" The feats work for certain situations, but not all. Forget called shots and extra damage. I'm talking heroics here. Any ideas? PLease keep the info coming and thanks for your input so far!!!
Leewei 08-23-05, 01:07 AM	Heroics, eh? Well, there's always a Hero Point system, where PCs get a number of Hero Points they can use to gain minor effects or avoid a fatal blow. This is balanced by enemies having Hero Points of their own with similar effects. Arcana Unearthed has a good break-down of these. Several games implement called shots, random critical hit effects, and special maneuvers to a far greater extent than D&D. The trade-offs are such that combat tends to last longer, but is also far more colorful for the non-finger-wigglers. Another option to consider could be restricting critical hits to any blow reducing an opponent to 0 or fewer HPs, then dropping the -10 off the scale. Instead, have Bad Stuff happen to any PC, NPC or critter reduced below 0. A head shot would certainly kill someone too deeply shocked to defend themselves. In the long run, however, this system tends to work against PCs, since they end up looking like pirates after a few rough encounters. (Regeneration takes a good while to become available to PCs when you start at level 1.) Another thing to try: use elite stat blocks for PCs and start them at level 10 with appropriate spells, feats and gear. At that point, there are a lot of colorful options in any battle for the characters.
Lord Ian Stark 08-23-05, 02:03 AM	Called shot with True Strike is broke. Called shot of a measly -8 or -12 is nothing to mid to high level characters that have attacks of +20's and +30's to hit and higher. Only way to do called shots correctly is by percentage chance modified by your BaB only. Have fun.
Evil Glowstick 08-23-05, 02:12 AM	The best system I have heard of for called shot is.... No Bab, you just get your str or dex bonus(depending on feats and stuff) There is still a miss chance that is determined by the Dm depending on where you want to hit. This really cuts down on the players killing all the tough guys in just a fiew hits because a good guy will not get hit by any of this crap excpt for the ocational time you catch him(critical hit).This is just a good way to take out some guys that you would probly drop quick anway.It also won't get the players killed as easy as most other called shot systems.Its an alright system if you like called shot.
StormKnight 08-23-05, 10:21 AM	We like it... and we haven't 'circumvented' any defense yet. Your effects of called shots seem pretty minor, so it shouldn't be too big a deal in your case. But you still have circumvented defenses. By way of example, let's say two assassins ambush two fighters at night. The fighters, having been caught totally off gaurd, are not wearing any of their armor or defenses. One of the fighters is a 20th level guildmaster, the other is a 1st level novice. Without armor and defensive items, both the fighters have AC 10. Maybe 11 or 12 with DEX. Its just as easy for the assassin fighting the guildmaster to make a called shot on her as it is for the one fighting the novice!
Alynn 08-23-05, 11:59 AM	I have thought of using them in the past, something more along the lines of a % chance of actually hitting like 5% head, 10% legs and 10% arms, so even if you hit the AC you still could miss their head, but I decided my damage increase for criticals were good enough (basically all threats are criticles and a second d20 roll determines the modifiier) which is nice. With this system someone rolling a critical with a bow shot, then a nat 20 would end up doing 6X normal damage, what it comes down to is those rare instances where you just get really lucky, it's not game breaking, and makes those critical hits all the more sweeter (and scarier when the enemies do it).
Sinaz 08-23-05, 12:05 PM	Your effects of called shots seem pretty minor, so it shouldn't be too big a deal in your case. But you still have circumvented defenses. By way of example, let's say two assassins ambush two fighters at night. The fighters, having been caught totally off gaurd, are not wearing any of their armor or defenses. One of the fighters is a 20th level guildmaster, the other is a 1st level novice. Without armor and defensive items, both the fighters have AC 10. Maybe 11 or 12 with DEX. Its just as easy for the assassin fighting the guildmaster to make a called shot on her as it is for the one fighting the novice! ...except that in normal D&D rules, the hypothetical fighters have the same basic AC that the assassins have to overcome, but consider what happens when both assassins try and perform called shots by firing arrows into the fighters' throats... Let's say both assassins are level 10 rogues/ level 2 assassins and overcome the penalty and hit. Lvl 1 fighter rolls his fort save, DC 15+ the assassin's BAB (+8) = 23, at 18 (great roll!) +2 = 20. DM: The arrow pierces his throat, blood is ebbing out and the fighter choking to death (subtracts damage, let's say 6, tacks on -1 to all attack rolls, saves, and checks, plus he'll be bleeding -1 HP per round (with only 4 left after one attack) That fighter is as good as dead! Lvl 20 guild master rolls his fort save, DC 15+ BAB 8 = 23 still, at 8 (bad roll) +12! = 20... not enough to overcome the wound, but... DM: The second arrow drives into the burly guildmaster's neck sending a spray of blood (subtracts damage, let's say a full 8 points, tacks on -1 to all attack rolls, saves, and checks, plus bleeding -1 HP per round... that's leaves him +19 on his first attack, +11 on further fort saves, etc etc. and still has AT LEAST 92 hp left considering average HP dice.) The guild master chokes out a few loogies of blood, turns and starts running down the street clutching the arrow at his neck, (He should try to cry for help... DC 10 +4 for an arrow in his neck, 14... I'm not even going to bother to roll) Amazingly, he begins to cry out for help in a gurgly voice. So... in my opinion, both fighters being flatfooted represent the same target to hit... a slow moving, unflinching, human sized silouhette... no difference in hitting either one... but the guild master has had his turn of arrows shot into his body, blades run through his belly, etc that an arrow to the throat is a mere inconvience to him. Plus-- I run my D&D games like Paul Verhoven action movies... People get shot in the head and they fall in slow motion while making a dumbfounded expressions staring at the arrow sticking out of thier head... (referring to why, say, a successful called shot to the noggin isn't an instant kill.) It's not broken in our games. We don't circumvent defense. It makes our games fun. Weeeeeee! PS - In my example up there, my players would have been better off using sneak attacks... thier arrows would have dealt 1d8+6d6, called shot would be implied due to the damage (since we also replace staggered rules variant with an instant wound to a random body location) the lvl 1 fighter would have had his heart surgically stopped with an arrow, the lvl 20 fighter would have done about 22 damage, still not enough to fell the guildmaster, rather than the measly 8 points plus the wound. Plus, couple the sneak attack with a called shot, and even true strike if it were available and the assassin would have done upwards of 22 damage plus a wound with little need for a die roll. Not that much more than just shooting the arrow as a sneak attack alone. And both assassins would still be aiming at the same ACs.
DarknessEternal 08-23-05, 12:48 PM	Notice I said "shoot." The feats you all suggested make perfect sense, though I can't recall reading rules about disarming with a ranged weapon or the like. Let me know if you have any ideas for something like this. Also trip attacks can not be done with a bow, so technically an awesome ranger with ranged weapons focus can't shoot a fleeing enemy in leg to slow him down? Ranged Disarm. Ranged Pin. Hamstring (although this one would require sneak attack dice, which many archers have). As for why aren't there called shots for extra damage in D&D? Because every attack is a called shot for extra damage. No one attacks with the intention of slightly tapping the shoulder of their foe (if they want to do that, they have to use some other kind of attack than the basic one). You are trying to kill someone with every attack. Hit points are the quantative defense your target is putting up to prevent himself from taking a mortal injury from your attack.
StormKnight 08-23-05, 01:04 PM	So... in my opinion, both fighters being flatfooted represent the same target to hit... a slow moving, unflinching, human sized silouhette... no difference in hitting either one... but the guild master has had his turn of arrows shot into his body, blades run through his belly, etc that an arrow to the throat is a mere inconvience to him. First off, no one said anything about slow moving, unflinching, easy targets. I'm just talking about UNARMORED targets. Actively defending, fighting, trying to kill you while you attack them unarmored targets. The level 1 assassin trying to stab the level 20 guildmaster with a knife while the guildmaster is swinging her mastercrafted longsword that she's carved up greater demons with has a 30% chance of whacking her in the head with a called shot. The exact same chance as whacking the level 1 fighter in the head! This is most significant in melee. In a melee fight, your ability to survive your opponent's attacks should realistically depend HIGHLY on your own ability. A horribly unskilled combatant will have a really hard time hitting a highly skilled foe. At range, the skill of the target matters less. Now, your system isn't too bad since the extra effects seem to be mostly hit point loss and ability reduction, which do tie into the stats that do increase as a character goes up, but the general concept still seems very wrong to me. Someone who gets hit in the head by a drastically inferior foe 1 out of 3 shots shouldn't live very long. Also, what happens with unhelmeted fighters? Shouldn't aiming for the head negate their armor AC bonus? So what if you take a penalty for the head shot if you ignore an ever bigger penalty from their armor! Second, if you are playing a game where getting an arrow throught the throat could be "a minor inconvenience" to a human, that's so far off from what I'd consider any sort of reality its hard to even talk about.
Sinaz 08-23-05, 01:24 PM	First off, no one said anything about slow moving, unflinching, easy targets. I'm just talking about UNARMORED targets. But... you said "The fighters, having been caught totally off gaurd, are not wearing any of their armor or defenses"... that's where I got the flat footed AC thing from... that says soooo much more than "unarmored targets." And you mentioned ambushing assassins... that example is what conjured up in my mind from your parameters.... (sheesh) Actively defending, fighting, trying to kill you while you attack them unarmored targets. The level 1 assassin trying to stab the level 20 guildmaster with a knife while the guildmaster is swinging her mastercrafted longsword that she's carved up greater demons with has a 30% chance of whacking her in the head with a called shot. The exact same chance as whacking the level 1 fighter in the head! See, this is an entirely different scenario than what you mentioned before... but it still sticks... the increased HP of the 20th level fighter represents the further ability to dodge and shrug blows away. His bleeding wounds aren't as dire to him as the lvl 1 fighter. Now, your system isn't too bad since the extra effects seem to be mostly hit point loss and ability reduction, which do tie into the stats that do increase as a character goes up, but the general concept still seems very wrong to me. Someone who gets hit in the head by a drastically inferior foe 1 out of 3 shots shouldn't live very long. See, you're treating every called shot as unilaterally equal. A called shot by a lvl 1 fighter is lucky to even land... and if it does damage, it inflicts a wound... typically -1 bleeding with the attached penalties... effects of a fracture are different... the lvl 10 fighter can land that called shot easilier and does crap loads more damage... the wounds are still -1 bleeding with attached penalties, etc. Now on the other end of the table, the lvl 1 victim is crippled by the wounding hit... the lvl 10 victim is wounded, but able to overcome, due to experience. It's practically the same as RAW, except my gamers like the added ability to use tactical strikes against the body... going up against a creature that is wreaking havoc with a giant mace, then focus all attacks on that strong arm and break it! It's not black or white... it may take a lot of fractures on a giants arms (which would probably equate to like... 'chips') before the giant was seriously hindered. Also, what happens with unhelmeted fighters? Shouldn't aiming for the head negate their armor AC bonus? So what if you take a penalty for the head shot if you ignore an ever bigger penalty from their armor! Hey, that sentence ended with an exclamation point... now you're yelling at me for having a different style of gaming than you... :( But no, again, just like RAW, AC represents more than the physical armor the character is wearing... someone with high AC is very likely to raise his armored arm to shield his face from an incoming arrow, or try to get his buckler to intersect the trajectory... a successful called shot means that A) the arrow flew true straight at the head, and B) the target failed to get the heck outta the way of it. Second, if you are playing a game where getting an arrow throught the throat could be "a minor inconvenience" to a human, that's so far off from what I'd consider any sort of reality its hard to even talk about. LOL... well, I'll tell you what. I'm playing 3.5ed D&D, a fantasy role playing game. You point me to whatever edition D&D, the reality role playing game you've got, and I'll read up on it and see if my house rules seem appropriate. :rolleyes:
StormKnight 08-23-05, 03:51 PM	But... you said "The fighters, having been caught totally off gaurd, are not wearing any of their armor or defenses"... that's where I got the flat footed AC thing from... that says soooo much more than "unarmored targets." And you mentioned ambushing assassins... that example is what conjured up in my mind from your parameters.... (sheesh) Sorry. I can see where you would get that. My only point was to create a situation where you have two unarmored fighers running around :) A called shot by a lvl 1 fighter is lucky to even land... and if it does damage, it inflicts a wound... typically -1 bleeding with the attached penalties... effects of a fracture are different... Well, you didn't say anything about effectiveness of called shots increasing with level, so why should I assume otherwise? It's not black or white... it may take a lot of fractures on a giants arms (which would probably equate to like... 'chips') before the giant was seriously hindered. Once again, those details are not in your post. You give no clue that a tougher character is tougher to hinder with criticals. Hey, that sentence ended with an exclamation point... now you're yelling at me for having a different style of gaming than you... No, I'm shouting to express my enthusiam at having found how to ignore the armor of many targets. LOL... well, I'll tell you what. I'm playing 3.5ed D&D, a fantasy role playing game. You point me to whatever edition D&D, the reality role playing game you've got, and I'll read up on it and see if my house rules seem appropriate. There are different levels of reality. To me, D&D "reality" includes magic, supernatural powers, and heroes so fantastically skilled they can fight armies on their own. It doesn't happen to include a "normal" person, even a hero, going "Yup, my head just got chopped off. But its only a flesh wound!" Yeah, its all personal preference. If you want a game where expert fighters get repeatedly stabbed in the heads with sword during fights, but are just too tough to care much, well hey, its your game.
Sinaz 08-23-05, 06:03 PM	K, this last round of retorts is just for final summation and clarification... Sorry. I can see where you would get that. My only point was to create a situation where you have two unarmored fighers running around :) Well, you didn't say anything about effectiveness of called shots increasing with level, so why should I assume otherwise? Well, the called shots I use is just a penalty for aiming, and the results are just aggrevated wounds. So, naturally, with the increase in level comes an increase in BAB, therefore, called shots increase effectiveness or, more accurately, accuracy with level. Once again, those details are not in your post. You give no clue that a tougher character is tougher to hinder with criticals. I probably didn't convey it well enough that a wound is a wound... one bleeding wound saps -1 hp per round, whether it came from a great axe or an arrow. So, the tougher characters can allow more wounds to stack before the penalties become a nuissance. I've talked about this system on so many threads, I start to forget what I have and haven't covered. No, I'm shouting to express my enthusiam at having found how to ignore the armor of many targets. There are different levels of reality. To me, D&D "reality" includes magic, supernatural powers, and heroes so fantastically skilled they can fight armies on their own. It doesn't happen to include a "normal" person, even a hero, going "Yup, my head just got chopped off. But its only a flesh wound!" Yeah, its all personal preference. If you want a game where expert fighters get repeatedly stabbed in the heads with sword during fights, but are just too tough to care much, well hey, its your game. And again just for clarity sake, our called shots aren't so profoundly devistating. A successful called shot for us isn't like, "I aim for the head!" "HIT! it pops like a balloon!" "I aim for the arm!" "HIT! It severs like warm butter!" I adjudicate the degree of the blow based on so many factors... if someone calls a shot to the head with a sword, and manages to do only 6 damage to a level 5 creature, then I don't say "You stabbed his head!" It's more like "You slice dangerously close to his eye gashing open a cut in his brow... he's bleeding heavily, and he's clutching at his eye that's flooded with blood now.... and he's really ticked off." Afterall, he's still got lots of HP left, and capabilities to fight. But that same called shot with an arrow against a lvl 1 creature, and it's probably "That arrow went clean through his eye in a horrific angle. Somehow he's still alive, but he's staggering all over the place bleeding and flailing." He's not left with much after something like that. But yeah, our games play in the flavor of LoTR and Indiana Jones... where high level elven archers will run up the snout of a war elephant or the villain can pull a guy's heart out of his ribs with his barehands and taunt the poor soul while he stares at his dismembered heart in bewilderment.
Uratoh 08-23-05, 06:28 PM	In my game, I allow called shots to work like Sunder attempts...note, you can;t 'sunder the head', the part generalls has 1/4 the max HP of the creature. I also only allow you to TRY when it makes sense....you can't sunder a creature's wings while theyre flying, buti f theyre pinned to the ground, wings spread flat, go for it.
HermitIX 08-23-05, 06:53 PM	In the heat of battle I do no allow called shots, I figure that the players are always trying to get the good strategic hits in. Criticals are when they finally manage to hit one. However if a player can take a few rounds undisturbed he can hit a slow or unmoving target. The difficulty to hit goes up depending on what he/she wants to hit, but they get to go in to battle with a hobbled foe.
Thesen 08-23-05, 09:50 PM	Someone mentioned "ranged disarm" and "ranged trip." What book are these in?
DarknessEternal 08-23-05, 11:42 PM	Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, and Ranged Sunder are all in Complete Warrior.