Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sharerware 06-09-05, 11:48 PM	I won't get into the entire back story, unless someone asks, but I am looking for help regarding the finale for my campaign. I have a group of 4 9th level PCs who are attempting to find and activate an artifact, and thereby stop a great red dragon from "world domination" (of course). The artifact will release a powerful NPC who will confront the dragon, since the PCs would easily be a snack for him. So, I wanted to have a secondary BBEG for the PCs to fight against. I don't want the NPC to steal the show; so I was planning on having the NPC and dragon destroy each other, while the PCs escape after defeating the secondary BBEG (if they survive) with some various artifacts (plot hooks for later campaign). I have a question and hope for suggestions for this secondary BBEG. My question is whether I'm committing any GM "sins" with this finale. No one likes to have a GM make up NPCs to steal the PCs thunder, but unfortunately this NPC/artifact was part of the original storyline. Will my secondary BBEG redeem me and not detract from the climax? Next, I was hoping for suggestions for the secondary BBEG. I originally thought of using a juvenile red dragon (CR10), but I don't know how much sense it makes having a juvenile and great wyrm living together. I'm currently thinking of using a stone golem. I figure the golem makes more sense. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!! :D
GuardianAngel 06-10-05, 12:06 AM	What are they fighting, I mean is it in a valcano? or on a mountain top? Where is the setting at and what have they killed already so we dont throw that at them, its not fun having the same BBEG. So just alittle more info, and maybe Party lvl/Classes would help maybe races too....
Master_Drow 06-10-05, 12:09 AM	first the other guy could be the dragons younglings wyrmling that will be a problem later if left alive (maybe one will escape and lead to new troubles else were another campain idea) and it makes sence to have a powerful NPC kill the red dragon it would make less sence to have 9th level PC's kill it. but it could be that this guy does not want to fight this guy or be called back from the grave or even is a coward because his great act of heroism was long ago when dragon were not as powereful (these might not work in your campain but just trying to help). the secound battle could also be between the PC's and another fire being (fire giant CR of 10 ) or a Vrock (demon CR of 9) look in the monster manual at CR's in the back and remeber that the DM's guid states (and gives rules for) fighting multiple weaker guys that equall a 9th level chalenge rating the dragon could have a small army of undead kobolds that he killed when getting his volcano all of those millenium ago and they have been his door guard ever since, this last idea will alow characters to get the fight out of they way and then watch the big battle later and have a story to tell a bard or two but hey people might want to prove there worth against people who think there so good that they can kill off dragon (even thought they had help) and this could lead to yet another camapain idea. hope this helps :plotting:
Tek 06-10-05, 12:17 AM	I personally know as a DM and as a player that if the big finale for the game was the players fighting a SUB-boss, it would be kind of dissapointing. My suggestion is have the artifact release the big hero guy, and then the dragon and him fight a bit, he weakens the dragon, then the dragon finishes him off. The PC's go, "Oh, that wasn't supposed to happen." And then have to finish off the dragon.
sharerware 06-10-05, 12:27 AM	What are they fighting, I mean is it in a valcano? or on a mountain top? Where is the setting at and what have they killed already so we dont throw that at them, its not fun having the same BBEG. So just alittle more info, and maybe Party lvl/Classes would help maybe races too.... The PCs consist of a psion warrior, ranger, bard, and a mechanician (a class we made up that can design and produce constructs). The finale will take palce on an inactive volcano. So far, I've thrown the standard enemies at them: orcs, ogres, trolls, zombies, npcs. I also threw some interesting mechanicals (constructs) at them produced by an evil mechanician (which turned out the be the PCs lost evil twin brother...). They've also fought a werewolf lord and will fight a chimera. The artifact is an old PC of mine from the vaults that was hidden in a small statue several generations ago. The Players will immediately recognize the character once he's released, that's why he must die or at least disappear. I don't want him overshadowing future campaigns. I brought him into this campaign because I thought it would be interesting. first the other guy could be the dragons younglings wyrmling that will be a problem later if left alive (maybe one will escape and lead to new troubles else were another campain idea) and it makes sence to have a powerful NPC kill the red dragon it would make less sence to have 9th level PC's kill it. but it could be that this guy does not want to fight this guy or be called back from the grave or even is a coward because his great act of heroism was long ago when dragon were not as powereful (these might not work in your campain but just trying to help). the secound battle could also be between the PC's and another fire being (fire giant CR of 10 ) or a Vrock (demon CR of 9) look in the monster manual at CR's in the back and remeber that the DM's guid states (and gives rules for) fighting multiple weaker guys that equall a 9th level chalenge rating the dragon could have a small army of undead kobolds that he killed when getting his volcano all of those millenium ago and they have been his door guard ever since, this last idea will alow characters to get the fight out of they way and then watch the big battle later and have a story to tell a bard or two but hey people might want to prove there worth against people who think there so good that they can kill off dragon (even thought they had help) and this could lead to yet another camapain idea. Thanks for the ideas. I have mobbed them before with lesser baddies to great effect, but I think I like the idea of pitting them against one bid baddy. I want them to narrowly escape the great wyrm, only to be faced with this enemy and make them say, "oh sh!t", but not be crazy with the CR. The golem made sense to me since it wouldn't take any treasure from the dragon, but the demon also makes sense. Choices, choices... :rolleyes:
DonGnocci 06-10-05, 04:16 AM	offtopic: @sharerware: Well... seems like i don't like "deus ex machina"-styles of campaigns... Perhaps i experienced it too often as a player... Think about your decision... Letting a super NPC hero fight the BBEG is rather frustrating for players... If I'd be playing a campaign for X months/sessions just to see it ending with a fight i have no chance to influence/fight for myself, I'd tear up my character sheet, and throw the pieces into my DM's face and leave the gaming table, honestly. (I even did once ago, when we ended a "The Dark Eye" campaign, that ended almost exactly the way you describe it in your post, da** was that frustrating...When i questioned him, he replied "You're all only adventurers.." Naming him Monty Haul would be far too good for this re****... Never been playing with him after that incident...) Just my opinion on that topic.
MarkB 06-10-05, 04:28 AM	I have to agree with DonGnocci, that kind of ending is incredibly frustrating as a player. I'd suggest having the artifact be a one-shot weapon which the party can use to weaken the dragon (maybe some kind of time-regression device that drops it an age-category or two, for a strictly limited duration), at which point they go against it in straight combat.
Tenzhi 06-10-05, 04:35 AM	I kinda agree with DonGnocci. I'd be slightly irritated if that were the end of the game. However, say the NPC we released turns out to be something worse than the dragon that we have to face ourselves some later day - that makes for good gaming.
mrshupizdumaterinu 06-10-05, 05:54 AM	Play longer campagins.
was_fired 06-10-05, 07:14 AM	If you must have the NPC fight him I would advise two of the following options: 1. Their final boss guards the artifact, and the campaign ends when he is freed with a line like, "There is still much we must accomplish..." 2. Give them control of the NPC for the final battle.
Carn Vandoril 06-10-05, 07:38 AM	Interesting.... Are you really keen on keeping the artifact idea: out pops the NPC? How about this artifact/NPC give a climatic burst of energy and blinding light, not expected by the pc's and this happens: DM:"While the artifact melts and burst into flame, you can hear the dragon screaming! (maybe fear check from the sound) Some where in the distance you here some one laughing (npc) that says:'Let's even the odds, vile creature!'......" Players:"OWWWWHH that hurts my ears and I can't see..." or what ever.(spot check) DM:"When you open your eyes and try to look around, while the ringing in your ears continues, you see that the red dragon shrunk to a much smaller size. While almost deafened, you hear a clear voice in your mind:"you have one hour untill it grows back to normal".
sharerware 06-10-05, 08:20 AM	First of all, this finale isn't really the end. One of the players is also a GM and we like to take turns. This mini finale will just mean that its time for us to switch. The campaign isn't over until the ultimate BBEG is defeated. Thus far everyone has a enjoyed the campaign a great deal, so I don't expect anyone to tear up their character sheets (that must have been a super bad experience, DonGnocci). There are essentially 2 BBEGs in my campaign: a Lich whos has started a war between 2 countries and a great red dragon. Without further detail, the 2 are working towards a similar end, putting them on the same "side". Generations ago one of the players grandfathers pledged allegiance to the "artifact" (before it was such) to find lost items that would allow the artifact to "awaken". Through many adventures and investigations, the PCs have finally located the supposed location of the artifact and items, however, everything happens to be located right outside the dragons lair. Surprise. In any event, the dragon is not the end. No where close in fact, its just time for a break from GMing. You guys have some good ideas, I'm just not sure which will best fit...
GuardianAngel 06-10-05, 08:26 AM	Maybe its just me but you could have the inactive valcano become active from the dragon, and on th way out, have a 8 headed to 9 headed hydra (fire or not) fight them, every time they take one of the heads out, it runs away or the PC's run away becuase of the Impending Lava that will be on their toes, and when it has 4 or less heads they kill such a creature, i mean i would personal like to see some kind of timer for them, it would add to the climatic event of seeing the two hero's fight. Another thing maybe this NPC(former PC) has a fly abilty and they are in the middle of the valcano and the Hero NPC wounds the dragon bad and thats how the Valcano becomes active, thus leaveing the PC's next to lava with nothing but the ability to run away from, becuase it is fire you could throw two Large Fire Elementals at them at once, it would be a EL of 11 or so i think (but dont quote). You could also do a twist, Take the Frost worm, and twist it to the Lava Worm, if you have time it might be cool to be running and see this lava thing come running after them. Another question is are the PC's going to die? or have you just not thought about what is going to happen when the Dragon dies? i mean why would it be the end of a campain, or is it the end of your turn of DMing? From the sounds of it IF your PC's survive then the would be pretty famous or Infamous from your point of view, i mean was this Dragon a Popular dragon, they could be chased down by some Dragon cult that worships dragons and want to return the favor to the PC's, or one of the characters might want to retire with all his weath at this point, (as a general rule i let players retire a character to make a new one, i mean why would you only allow a new character to come in if an old one dies?) but thats up to you. From the sounds of your grp, it looks like they could handle a Stone Golem, maybe add a twist and it has lava holding the stone together so when a melee strike hits him, it kinda breaks away the skin and Lava pours out, Sorry to look cheesey to anyone but like how the demon looked in LOTR. Just my two cents
cvazi 06-10-05, 08:55 AM	one way to do this is instead have the artifact unleash the spirit of the NPC who attacks the dragon- and effectively lowers the cr of the dragon to more manageable levels. cinematically, the spirit of the character will be entangling the dragon (perhaps countering spells- taking up attacks- lowering AC by ripping off scales). make it clear to the PC's that the NPC cannot take the dragon out by himself (I sense monologue, or cries for the PC's to "strike while i hold him"). Put in a sense of urgency ("I can't hold him for long- Strike!"). Have the PC's kill the dragon- I made the Deus Ex Machina style ending and had some *really* ****** off players.
TinManFan 06-10-05, 11:09 AM	Mini-BBEG could be a 1/2 dragon wizard. Or a Sorc Dragon Disciple. Or a pretty nasty Cleric of Tiamat. Properly buffed with spells beforehand, they could all throw down with a party.
Beer-Ogre 06-10-05, 11:26 AM	I personally know as a DM and as a player that if the big finale for the game was the players fighting a SUB-boss, it would be kind of dissapointing. My suggestion is have the artifact release the big hero guy, and then the dragon and him fight a bit, he weakens the dragon, then the dragon finishes him off. The PC's go, "Oh, that wasn't supposed to happen." And then have to finish off the dragon. I think this is a good idea. Make a bloody show of it when the NPC dies so the PC's are like, "Uh-Oh!" But at the same time give the dragon some kind of obvious injury they can exploit.
Whistledown 06-10-05, 01:04 PM	Hey Shareware, you are operating under a false paradigm. The NPC released by the artifact need not fight the dragon alone. You can have your cake and eat it. I don't know your dm style but here's what I would do. 1. The players release the NPC. 2. He says "well done, Lads, now lets go kick that Dragon's butt" 3. They enter the final Dragon's chamber and the fight starts. 4. After the first round either the dragon summons something or another creature, like the pyro-hydra out of theh lava, comes out. 5. The NPC yells "Keep that thing off my back" or "I'll take Big Red, kill that thing and then flank Big Red." This way the players are actually fighting the Dragon-- actually participating in the fight. Key points Fudge rolls behind screen to scare players, but keep the dragon from killin them If the players want to mix it up with the dragon, let them, but make sure they know how deadly it is use the dragon as part of the setting. As the PC's fight the smaller foe the dragon's tail swipe might come there way The only drawback is that you may actually have to generate stats for the NPC and the dragon and fight it out, unless you are good at being "cinematic"
sharerware 06-10-05, 01:15 PM	I've done some thinking based on your suggestions. Here's what I have so far. This is probably what I'll go with, since it fits well with the campaign and we're playing tomorrow. Thanks for your input!! I think you've saved me and my campaign from a disappointing end. :P The PCs are about to entire a ruined city at the base of the mountain where they will have to defeat a Chimera in order to find the hidden path that leads up the mountain to the location of the lost items. After defeating the Chimera, they'll meet up with a minor NPC that has guided them in earlier sessions, since he knew the artifact/NPC. This interaction will allow the PCs to have whatever questions they have answered. Here the minor NPC will explain that awakening the artifact/NPC, he will immediately begin to start phasing back to the world/time he came from. :ghosted: After breaking camp and setting out, the dragon will catch them by surprise. The heroic minor NPC will fend off the dragon, long enough for the PCs to get away (further up the mountain), after which the minor NPC gets eatten. :yuck: Earlier in the campaign, the dragon interacted with the PCs as a lowly human merchant. It wasn't until later that the PCs discovered that the merchant was a nasty dragon. So, I have this image in my mind, that as the PCs awakening the artifact, the dragon disguised as the merchant says something to get their attention. I can't wait to see the look on their faces when they recognize that voice coming from behind them. :gah: So, the NPC then starts to battle the dragon and severly weaken him. As soon as that happens, the volcano starts to erupt (the clock starts ticking - figuratively speaking though). The PCs jump in to help defeat the dragon, but just at the last second the NPC finally vanishes, leaving the PCs alone with the severly weakened dragon. Another good "uh oh" moment. :uh-huh: Unbeknownst to the PCs, however, the dragon is so near death as to not be a real threat. After a round of attacks, the dragon goes down, but then a juvenile red dragon flies in to take over the spoils from the great dragon (perhaps the juvenile is even the great dragon's son - typical of chaotic red dragons, right). This will be the final battle that really taxes the PCs and will snap them back to reality after defeating a great wyrm. :fight!: Amidst the spoils of the battle will be a small (flying) ship, which the PCs will have to jump into and fly away or be caught in the lava flow. They'll have to watch all of the treasure melt away of course, however, the ship will also be filled with the stuff. As they get clear of the spewing lava, they see in the distance (at night) the beginnings of a great war between 2 countries with lots "fireworks" to fill the night sky... :mymy: If anyone is interested, I'll post what the players think after tomorrow...
Bruunwald 06-10-05, 01:16 PM	Next, I was hoping for suggestions for the secondary BBEG. I originally thought of using a juvenile red dragon (CR10), but I don't know how much sense it makes having a juvenile and great wyrm living together. I'm currently thinking of using a stone golem. I figure the golem makes more sense. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!! :D Is there still time to introduce the secondary BBEG and get the party to hate him? I would be careful to use a sentient, and hopefully loathsome figure as the secondary. The reason is this: There's nothing wrong with 9th level PCs defeating an epic badguy's cohort while an epic NPC takes out the big baddy. It happens in movies all the time. But those movies all have the promise of a sequel, where the protagonists DO get to take part in the big battle. So if you're doing this with the promise of the final, major conflict coming to the PCs when they are 20th level, that's cool. But killing the henchman will be so much sweeter (and not getting the major BBEG easier to take) if the henchman is somebody they can really hate. It's a much more satisifying end.
sharerware 06-10-05, 01:39 PM	Is there still time to introduce the secondary BBEG and get the party to hate him? I would be careful to use a sentient, and hopefully loathsome figure as the secondary. If only you knew how easy that would be. :evillaugh One of the players is a girl who's PC is a ranger with a pseudo-dragon "pet". She's grown very fond if it. The seconday BBEG (juvenile red dragon) could eat it. That would really get the PCs steaming. Then again, I don't want to over do it... The secondary BBEG could be the one who kills the aforementioned minor NPC, but if I really want the PCs to loathe the secondary BBEG, the psuedo-dragon will have to go. Thanks for that piece of advice! :plotting:
sharerware 06-13-05, 01:17 PM	The partial finale has come and gone, and I thought some might be interested to know how things went. For the most part, things played out pretty much as I mentioned in my second to last post. After the gaming was done, I discussed with them the evolution of the finale brought about by posting it on this forum. While they didn't see my original idea as being bad or disappointing, they did say that they enjoyed being a part of the dragon's demise. According to them, they've very much enjoyed the campaign thus far, including this past session. After I have a break from GMing, and get a chance to play for a while, I'll be back at it to finish this campaign. Thanks to everyone who helped me (and my friends) have a great time role-playing! :clap:
Morka 06-13-05, 02:24 PM	Perhaps if you build a Nemesis to your ubėr NPC? You know, through the artefact, a rift open and your NPC comes back to life. He left, and go out to fight the dragon. The PCs are almost "ok, let's play cards" when the rift reopen and a blackguard jump out, screaming out the NPC's name. At first, this blackguard doesn't care about the PCs, he's just after the NPC. However, the NPC has hands full with the dragon, he won't be able to fight it along with the blackguard. This blackguard could be higher CR than the PCs, since he will be mostly attacking the NPC.
Blackrazorblade 06-13-05, 05:28 PM	How about the NPC releasd is not the great hero promised but an anti-hero. He defeats the dragon and lets the PCs live as a sign of gratitude and they build their strength so they can defeat him later. I suggest this because many players would have a problem with the NPC saving thme thing.