Campaign Flavor and PC Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Campaign Flavor and PC Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RobertJ
05-03-06, 09:40 AM I run a homebrew campaign setting geared towards being low magic, and as such I have made some rather drastic changes to basic spellcasting classes and so forth. All spellcasters draw upon completely different sources of power, all of which are well understood in my campaign. There is no distinction between arcane and divine, there is only a distinction between spellcasters who draw upon different types of energy to power their spells (and each type of energy is best at one or more types of effect).

I also have a player who is, shall we say, rather compulsive in his desire to try out any new [spellcasting] class in WOTC books. When this player told me he wanted to play a [Dread] Necromancer I, grudgingly, let him. At the time I indicated to him that playing a Necromancer in my campaign would be a really good way to have everyone hate you. The character has survived essentially by not casting any spells whatsoever, but that is neither here nor there. Suffice it to say that Necromancers are supposed to be RARE in my campaign world, and even allowing a character to play one is a stretch.

So, Tome of Magic comes out. Now this player wants to play a Shadow Caster. I haven't really had the chance to look over the class yet, but I'm concerned. One of the things I have been trying to do is to give magic in my campaign a very distinctive flavor from standard D&D. Now my player wants to introduce this new class, a new casting system, and, undoubtedly, all the flavor that comes with it. To be honest, I don't have a problem with the player adopting a different casting system -- I've encouraged my players to adopt a Power Point scheme for awhile now. What I have a big problem with is how the Shadow Caster [sounds like] a very distinctive type of caster, and that this player will bring the descriptions and explanations for things from the book into my campaign world. (For example, there is no such thing as "positive" and "negative" energy in my campaign, and it really irritates me when players refer to anything, such as healing, as being a positive/negative energy effect.)

I want to be considerate to this guy's enjoyment, but I feel like I've already given him a lot of leeway in playing an unusual class and now he's just running roughshod over what I'm trying to create by trying to bring in new things that I can't deal with without serious work. I also run a website for my campaign and I have everyone's character sheets online -- I told this guy that I was going to disallow any further classes by default, in the hope of encouraging people to play more core classes. This guy immediately started acting depressed and claiming that none of the classes I allow (there are over 16, including all core except Wizards/Clerics/Druids) looked appealing. Furthermore, he went ahead and edited his character sheet to include a level of Shadow Caster.

Am I just being too asinine about this whole thing, or should I put a stop to this?
Whim
05-03-06, 09:46 AM Well, if I understand it correctly, you just simply need to pull this player aside and work out some details about his character and chosen class.

You've adjusted your own set of rules to fit into the game--which can be difficult in any instance--so I can see your frustration. But if you apply these rules you've made to that player's class of choice, you should be able to work something reasonable out.

But, anyway, why exactly would you allow the core magic classes but not a necromancer? I think I'm not understanding the situation fully.
RobertJ
05-03-06, 10:03 AM Well, if I understand it correctly, you just simply need to pull this player aside and work out some details about his character and chosen class.

You've adjusted your own set of rules to fit into the game--which can be difficult in any instance--so I can see your frustration. But if you apply these rules you've made to that player's class of choice, you should be able to work something reasonable out.

But, anyway, why exactly would you allow the core magic classes but not a necromancer? I think I'm not understanding the situation fully.

The reason why playing a Necromancer is a stretch is, well, for reasons that should be obvious Necromancers are not very popular. As soon as anyone is revealed to be a Necromancer they'd usually have a lynch mob, the guard, the clergy, or any number of organizations attacking them. It creates a really problematic situation for me because there are really no organizations that could/would teach anyone Necromancy. Even a first level Dread Necromancer knows a good number of spells and it's hard to believe that a character could learn them without having access to repositories of information. I'm willing to gloss over some of these issues if it means a player enjoying the game more, but I think this new Shadow Caster business may be too much.
Whim
05-03-06, 10:07 AM The reason why playing a Necromancer is a stretch is, well, for reasons that should be obvious Necromancers are not very popular. As soon as anyone is revealed to be a Necromancer they'd usually have a lynch mob, the guard, the clergy, or any number of organizations attacking them. It creates a really problematic situation for me because there are really no organizations that could/would teach anyone Necromancy. Even a first level Dread Necromancer knows a good number of spells and it's hard to believe that a character could learn them without having access to repositories of information. I'm willing to gloss over some of these issues if it means a player enjoying the game more, but I think this new Shadow Caster business may be too much.

Oh, well, yeah, that old reason...hehe.

I thought you meant that him playing a necromancer somehow conflicted with your specialized rules.

But, yeah, if you're trying to keep things fairly simple and want to maintain a believable and maintainable scenario, you're right to deny him that class.

At the same time, think about what you could possibly do to make the class work in the scenario. If you'd rather not have necromancers in the scenario, that's just fine, but if you feel like you can make it work without putting too much of a strain on your game, then see what you can do to adjust.
Cthulhu-LQ
05-03-06, 10:30 AM Here is how I consider magic in my campaign. Maybe it can inspire you for the source of knowledge of a necromancer.

A brief history of my world :
It was once ruled by elves, who had an aztec-like society. They understood magic well. The source of magic comes from monstrous god-like entities (in fact, entities like the Great Old Ones from the Cthulhu mythos. The source of magic is greatly inspired from Lovecraft). Wizards learn spell by summoning and binding these entities, and forcing them to reveal the spells. They then write these spells down in books where other wizards can learn them.
Then a cataclysm happened, and this elven-aztec society was lost. Some of their work has been found, and new wizards learned to use magic that had been written down by the ancient elves, but it's mostly low-level magic.
The knowledge about these Great Old Ones and the source of magic has been mostly lost. All magic (arcane and divine) comes from them, in different ways, but few understand it. Eventually, as they raise in power, magic users start to understand where it comes from, and must deal more directly with them if they want to still gain more power. Which exmplains why most high-level magic users tend to become mentally unstable.

If a player decides to play a magic-user that works with positive and negative energy, that's fine. This is not how magic really works, but it's how the PC thinks he understands it. Eventually he will learn the true nature of magic, shattering his illusions and driving him into madness if he still wants this kind of power from the Great Old Ones.
cmrscorpio
05-03-06, 10:53 AM ...he went ahead and edited his character sheet to include a level of Shadow Caster.

Am I just being too asinine about this whole thing...

No, you aren't the one being asinine about this whole thing.

I completely empathize with you in you conflict between what you want your campaign to be and wanting to keep your players happy. I've run into similar problems with campaigns in the past.

Does the player understand the flavor that you are trying to accomplish with the setting? Does the player understand why the class doesn't fit with your setting? Does the player care? If the answer to all of those questions is "yes" and the player still insists on playing that caster, then ask the player to do the legwork of altering its flavor so that it is in line with your setting, and if you approve the final result, then you can allow it.

However, I get the feeling that it is highly unlikely that the answer to all those questions is "yes". My best advise is to simply reiterate that you are trying to create a particular flavor for your setting, and that the class he wants does not go with it.

If he does not respond well to this, ask him why he doesn't want to continue advancing as a dread necromancer. It sounds to me like this is the type of player who wants to try out every new class that comes down the block. I admit that I am this type of player. However, it is important for a player like this to realize that as the DM you have the right to select and omit from your setting any material for your own reasons. You already made an exception for him with the dread necromancer and worked it into the setting. You did that as a favor to him. Now ask if he would do you a favor and stick with the established flavor of the setting.
Board_Rider
05-03-06, 12:32 PM Eh, I would allow the Shadowcaster. Even though you have a specialized system, a Shadowcaster is just draws his power from the Plane of Shadow. The class is actually a tad underpowered when you compare it to a straight Wizard IMO.

Read up on it and then decide.
GnomeMade
05-03-06, 07:26 PM I would recommend reading up on the shadow caster in TOM- borrow the book from him saying that you'd like to consider it carefully before you just throw in some more magic- after all, you have your own setting with your own flavor and adding more magic into it is a complicated business. Shadow magic is a kind of dark magic that slowly drives a person insane. It comes from, and manifests physical darkness-shadowstuff, the kind of shadow that has form. If your world doesn't have a realm of shadow, then perhaps the darkness is drawn from the soul, or from the souls of the old ones that were summoned...it is really your choice. While you are at it, I'd look over the binder class...you probably have all of your flavor worked out, but sometimes it's nice to see what other options are available or there may be a bit of garnish for your flavor.

But if you add shadow magic to your realm, I would make him work for it. I mean, start as a mage, learn minor illusions, delve deeper, find an ancient tome to get the lower level spells at all, and then slowly reseach the fuller spells...those shouldn't be written down (In my opinion), they should be something the mage has to bend his mind to learn. After all, shadows moving on their own and darkness given form is pretty Lovecraftian...so it might work, but it will be work and it will require some serious roleplaying. Also, I would think that this dark magic would be some serious power in this world, whereas in normal D&D it's not treated as much.

But it is your campaign, you don't have to add it...and if you do add it, it's a lot more work for you...so it should be a lot more work for him. Hopefully, if you make him work pretty hard for it, he'll value it enough not to cast it aside as easily as necromancy, but that's me being optimistic. :D

Still, it can't hurt to look it over. There is a lot of different ideas in the TOM and I think you should look them over, if even just to discover about how you feel about them...

Good luck! ;)
RobertJ
05-03-06, 07:37 PM Eh, I would allow the Shadowcaster. Even though you have a specialized system, a Shadowcaster is just draws his power from the Plane of Shadow. The class is actually a tad underpowered when you compare it to a straight Wizard IMO.

Read up on it and then decide.

My campaign world doesn't have a Plane of Shadow, though. It seems like too much of a concession to modify my entire cosmology for this class, and yet I don't see the point of wanting to play the class absent that flavor.

EDIT:

GnomeMage -- Your idea about drawing shadow powers from the soul is great. That could actually work if I let him take this class... I think I will go with the idea that if he wants to take levels in this class he is going to have to at least go on a significant quest for developing these new powers. I doubt he'll still want to take the class in a few months, or at least not with the pressing urgency of a kid wanting to play with a new toy, so that may work.

Also, yes I actually have looked at the binder (I was reading over the TOM last week before our session but never got around to reading the Shadowcaster) -- I think it's a really cool class, and one that, in my opinion, fits into the fantasy genre better than even the core casters. I don't think I'm going to allow the Binder into my campaign either, but if I wanted to allow it, it seems more straightforward to allow the Binder into my campaign than the Shadowcaster.
Board_Rider
05-04-06, 01:13 AM My campaign world doesn't have a Plane of Shadow, though. It seems like too much of a concession to modify my entire cosmology for this class, and yet I don't see the point of wanting to play the class absent that flavor.

Ah...well then, yeah, disallow it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobertJ 05-03-06, 09:40 AM	I run a homebrew campaign setting geared towards being low magic, and as such I have made some rather drastic changes to basic spellcasting classes and so forth. All spellcasters draw upon completely different sources of power, all of which are well understood in my campaign. There is no distinction between arcane and divine, there is only a distinction between spellcasters who draw upon different types of energy to power their spells (and each type of energy is best at one or more types of effect). I also have a player who is, shall we say, rather compulsive in his desire to try out any new [spellcasting] class in WOTC books. When this player told me he wanted to play a [Dread] Necromancer I, grudgingly, let him. At the time I indicated to him that playing a Necromancer in my campaign would be a really good way to have everyone hate you. The character has survived essentially by not casting any spells whatsoever, but that is neither here nor there. Suffice it to say that Necromancers are supposed to be RARE in my campaign world, and even allowing a character to play one is a stretch. So, Tome of Magic comes out. Now this player wants to play a Shadow Caster. I haven't really had the chance to look over the class yet, but I'm concerned. One of the things I have been trying to do is to give magic in my campaign a very distinctive flavor from standard D&D. Now my player wants to introduce this new class, a new casting system, and, undoubtedly, all the flavor that comes with it. To be honest, I don't have a problem with the player adopting a different casting system -- I've encouraged my players to adopt a Power Point scheme for awhile now. What I have a big problem with is how the Shadow Caster [sounds like] a very distinctive type of caster, and that this player will bring the descriptions and explanations for things from the book into my campaign world. (For example, there is no such thing as "positive" and "negative" energy in my campaign, and it really irritates me when players refer to anything, such as healing, as being a positive/negative energy effect.) I want to be considerate to this guy's enjoyment, but I feel like I've already given him a lot of leeway in playing an unusual class and now he's just running roughshod over what I'm trying to create by trying to bring in new things that I can't deal with without serious work. I also run a website for my campaign and I have everyone's character sheets online -- I told this guy that I was going to disallow any further classes by default, in the hope of encouraging people to play more core classes. This guy immediately started acting depressed and claiming that none of the classes I allow (there are over 16, including all core except Wizards/Clerics/Druids) looked appealing. Furthermore, he went ahead and edited his character sheet to include a level of Shadow Caster. Am I just being too asinine about this whole thing, or should I put a stop to this?
Whim 05-03-06, 09:46 AM	Well, if I understand it correctly, you just simply need to pull this player aside and work out some details about his character and chosen class. You've adjusted your own set of rules to fit into the game--which can be difficult in any instance--so I can see your frustration. But if you apply these rules you've made to that player's class of choice, you should be able to work something reasonable out. But, anyway, why exactly would you allow the core magic classes but not a necromancer? I think I'm not understanding the situation fully.
RobertJ 05-03-06, 10:03 AM	Well, if I understand it correctly, you just simply need to pull this player aside and work out some details about his character and chosen class. You've adjusted your own set of rules to fit into the game--which can be difficult in any instance--so I can see your frustration. But if you apply these rules you've made to that player's class of choice, you should be able to work something reasonable out. But, anyway, why exactly would you allow the core magic classes but not a necromancer? I think I'm not understanding the situation fully. The reason why playing a Necromancer is a stretch is, well, for reasons that should be obvious Necromancers are not very popular. As soon as anyone is revealed to be a Necromancer they'd usually have a lynch mob, the guard, the clergy, or any number of organizations attacking them. It creates a really problematic situation for me because there are really no organizations that could/would teach anyone Necromancy. Even a first level Dread Necromancer knows a good number of spells and it's hard to believe that a character could learn them without having access to repositories of information. I'm willing to gloss over some of these issues if it means a player enjoying the game more, but I think this new Shadow Caster business may be too much.
Whim 05-03-06, 10:07 AM	The reason why playing a Necromancer is a stretch is, well, for reasons that should be obvious Necromancers are not very popular. As soon as anyone is revealed to be a Necromancer they'd usually have a lynch mob, the guard, the clergy, or any number of organizations attacking them. It creates a really problematic situation for me because there are really no organizations that could/would teach anyone Necromancy. Even a first level Dread Necromancer knows a good number of spells and it's hard to believe that a character could learn them without having access to repositories of information. I'm willing to gloss over some of these issues if it means a player enjoying the game more, but I think this new Shadow Caster business may be too much. Oh, well, yeah, that old reason...hehe. I thought you meant that him playing a necromancer somehow conflicted with your specialized rules. But, yeah, if you're trying to keep things fairly simple and want to maintain a believable and maintainable scenario, you're right to deny him that class. At the same time, think about what you could possibly do to make the class work in the scenario. If you'd rather not have necromancers in the scenario, that's just fine, but if you feel like you can make it work without putting too much of a strain on your game, then see what you can do to adjust.
Cthulhu-LQ 05-03-06, 10:30 AM	Here is how I consider magic in my campaign. Maybe it can inspire you for the source of knowledge of a necromancer. A brief history of my world : It was once ruled by elves, who had an aztec-like society. They understood magic well. The source of magic comes from monstrous god-like entities (in fact, entities like the Great Old Ones from the Cthulhu mythos. The source of magic is greatly inspired from Lovecraft). Wizards learn spell by summoning and binding these entities, and forcing them to reveal the spells. They then write these spells down in books where other wizards can learn them. Then a cataclysm happened, and this elven-aztec society was lost. Some of their work has been found, and new wizards learned to use magic that had been written down by the ancient elves, but it's mostly low-level magic. The knowledge about these Great Old Ones and the source of magic has been mostly lost. All magic (arcane and divine) comes from them, in different ways, but few understand it. Eventually, as they raise in power, magic users start to understand where it comes from, and must deal more directly with them if they want to still gain more power. Which exmplains why most high-level magic users tend to become mentally unstable. If a player decides to play a magic-user that works with positive and negative energy, that's fine. This is not how magic really works, but it's how the PC thinks he understands it. Eventually he will learn the true nature of magic, shattering his illusions and driving him into madness if he still wants this kind of power from the Great Old Ones.
cmrscorpio 05-03-06, 10:53 AM	...he went ahead and edited his character sheet to include a level of Shadow Caster. Am I just being too asinine about this whole thing... No, you aren't the one being asinine about this whole thing. I completely empathize with you in you conflict between what you want your campaign to be and wanting to keep your players happy. I've run into similar problems with campaigns in the past. Does the player understand the flavor that you are trying to accomplish with the setting? Does the player understand why the class doesn't fit with your setting? Does the player care? If the answer to all of those questions is "yes" and the player still insists on playing that caster, then ask the player to do the legwork of altering its flavor so that it is in line with your setting, and if you approve the final result, then you can allow it. However, I get the feeling that it is highly unlikely that the answer to all those questions is "yes". My best advise is to simply reiterate that you are trying to create a particular flavor for your setting, and that the class he wants does not go with it. If he does not respond well to this, ask him why he doesn't want to continue advancing as a dread necromancer. It sounds to me like this is the type of player who wants to try out every new class that comes down the block. I admit that I am this type of player. However, it is important for a player like this to realize that as the DM you have the right to select and omit from your setting any material for your own reasons. You already made an exception for him with the dread necromancer and worked it into the setting. You did that as a favor to him. Now ask if he would do you a favor and stick with the established flavor of the setting.
Board_Rider 05-03-06, 12:32 PM	Eh, I would allow the Shadowcaster. Even though you have a specialized system, a Shadowcaster is just draws his power from the Plane of Shadow. The class is actually a tad underpowered when you compare it to a straight Wizard IMO. Read up on it and then decide.
GnomeMade 05-03-06, 07:26 PM	I would recommend reading up on the shadow caster in TOM- borrow the book from him saying that you'd like to consider it carefully before you just throw in some more magic- after all, you have your own setting with your own flavor and adding more magic into it is a complicated business. Shadow magic is a kind of dark magic that slowly drives a person insane. It comes from, and manifests physical darkness-shadowstuff, the kind of shadow that has form. If your world doesn't have a realm of shadow, then perhaps the darkness is drawn from the soul, or from the souls of the old ones that were summoned...it is really your choice. While you are at it, I'd look over the binder class...you probably have all of your flavor worked out, but sometimes it's nice to see what other options are available or there may be a bit of garnish for your flavor. But if you add shadow magic to your realm, I would make him work for it. I mean, start as a mage, learn minor illusions, delve deeper, find an ancient tome to get the lower level spells at all, and then slowly reseach the fuller spells...those shouldn't be written down (In my opinion), they should be something the mage has to bend his mind to learn. After all, shadows moving on their own and darkness given form is pretty Lovecraftian...so it might work, but it will be work and it will require some serious roleplaying. Also, I would think that this dark magic would be some serious power in this world, whereas in normal D&D it's not treated as much. But it is your campaign, you don't have to add it...and if you do add it, it's a lot more work for you...so it should be a lot more work for him. Hopefully, if you make him work pretty hard for it, he'll value it enough not to cast it aside as easily as necromancy, but that's me being optimistic. :D Still, it can't hurt to look it over. There is a lot of different ideas in the TOM and I think you should look them over, if even just to discover about how you feel about them... Good luck! ;)
RobertJ 05-03-06, 07:37 PM	Eh, I would allow the Shadowcaster. Even though you have a specialized system, a Shadowcaster is just draws his power from the Plane of Shadow. The class is actually a tad underpowered when you compare it to a straight Wizard IMO. Read up on it and then decide. My campaign world doesn't have a Plane of Shadow, though. It seems like too much of a concession to modify my entire cosmology for this class, and yet I don't see the point of wanting to play the class absent that flavor. EDIT: GnomeMage -- Your idea about drawing shadow powers from the soul is great. That could actually work if I let him take this class... I think I will go with the idea that if he wants to take levels in this class he is going to have to at least go on a significant quest for developing these new powers. I doubt he'll still want to take the class in a few months, or at least not with the pressing urgency of a kid wanting to play with a new toy, so that may work. Also, yes I actually have looked at the binder (I was reading over the TOM last week before our session but never got around to reading the Shadowcaster) -- I think it's a really cool class, and one that, in my opinion, fits into the fantasy genre better than even the core casters. I don't think I'm going to allow the Binder into my campaign either, but if I wanted to allow it, it seems more straightforward to allow the Binder into my campaign than the Shadowcaster.
Board_Rider 05-04-06, 01:13 AM	My campaign world doesn't have a Plane of Shadow, though. It seems like too much of a concession to modify my entire cosmology for this class, and yet I don't see the point of wanting to play the class absent that flavor. Ah...well then, yeah, disallow it.