Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Derrigan 01-09-08, 11:26 AM	It's finally happening!! As I've posted a few weeks ago, I have what can only be explained as a 'problem player'. I don't know if anyone has ever encountered this type of player, but this guy plays every character the same. Everyone he plays is chaotic stupid. If he plays a spellcaster, he'll immediately go for the forbidden arts to try to increase his abilities, and magics. He's literally sold the other chracters in the group into slavery several times, so he could get in the BBEG's good graces. Just for flavor, at one point I had described a particularly gory scene involving magic runes and sigils. He memorized the writing and recreated it surrounding a town, killing everyone within. At times I swear this player does it on purpose to derail the campaign. I've discussed it with him several times to try to get him to tone it down, and always I get the same response. "As a mage, my player wants more power. He'll do anything he can to get it." This behavior did break up my gaming group for a while. I only started up again a couple of months ago, and tried to prevent this guy from coming back. Someone else told him we were playing and he showed up, sheet in hand. I still don't know why I didn't throw him out then, because he went out of his way to do the same thing again. But now I get to get revenge. Possibly. He stated his desires to run the campaign after I snapped at him. I told him I was getting tired of dealing with him, he said, "well a decent dm would know how to handle things like this." So now, like I said, I get to play, for the first time in years. He's setting up a campaign to run, and says he'll be ready to go this weekend. Should I return the favor, and go out of my way to derail things for him? Or take the moral high ground and let him run it without too much interference? I'm sitting here with the little angel on one shoulder, the little devil on the other, trying to decide.
Evil DM Mk3 01-09-08, 11:35 AM	His actions are those of an evil character. Have the forces of good come after him. Do not kill the game, but you may consider booting the player. What aignment does he say his wizard is? Wiping out a town just because he can is the act of a NE or CE character.
Orchomenos 01-09-08, 11:45 AM	I say do not disturb his campaign. What started as a misunderstanding would lead to an endless feud, and all the other players would be innocently involved in this ("So do you stay with Derrigan's group or with 'Problem Player's group?") Though you could really play another power-angry, morally challenged character, but staying in the DM's rules. This way, you could show him how he could have played his wizard without derailing the campaing. Yes, it's possible to play such a character and have the good guys win in the end, see Raistlin Majere, or Jack Sparrow! Beside, this power-angry, morally challenged character doesn't need to be a wizard. It could be a rogue, a fighter, even a cleric (hidding his true faith to his dark deity). And then, after a few game sessions where your character spread havok but in the end, helps the rest of the party, you can take him appart, and calmly tell him: "See, that's what you could have done with your wizard, and my campaign would still be running!"
Dunsel 01-09-08, 11:50 AM	What level is this character? The spell necessary to wipe out a town should be above all but epic levels. The player's can only do what their characters and the DM allow. If you allow it, the players will try it. Don'r be like him! Make sure you run a Wizard but don't be like him. He will likely try to tempt you will power. He will likely expect you to act like he would under the same situations, don't fall fall for it. As far as you being a "decent DM", I don't know if you are but the player sounds like a "Steve". He thinks he knows better that the DM and all the players. He is an egomaniac and needs to be the center of attention.
old_dm 01-09-08, 11:51 AM	moral high ground? what moral high ground? there is no moral high ground in a quasi-universe where the outcome of everything is determined by dice. Forget morality. You've been given a chance for payback. my advice? take it. as you get older you will learn to lament for those moments in life where you could've really stuck it to some jackass that desperately deserved it, but you didn't. Lets abandon completely the idea of derailing things. You don't want to derail things. You want to create a complete travesty that you and your friends will savor for years to come. Don't think "derail". Think "train wreck". It brings to mind more accurate images of death and dismemberment, as well as conjuring the woeful sounds of the screaming and bellowing surviviors as they mourn for their dead. If you are a DM of any accomplishment whatsoever you know what to do, and how to do it, when it comes to running a campaign right off the tracks. Just think about it: youve been victim of it yourself.
BENEVOLENT_DM 01-09-08, 12:01 PM	I'm quite surprised at some of the comments. Do not do anything to sabotage the campaign. Play a character the same as you would if it wasn't this guy being the DM. First, if he does things the way you say, the rest of the group thinks he is a "problem player". Now if you act the same what will your gaming group think of you. Someone offering to take the mantle of DM is a rare gift. If you become the "problem player" noone will offer again. Your respect for your gaming group should be more important than your desire for a one time shot revenge.
russdm 01-09-08, 02:15 PM	You are looking at taking revenge the wrong way. Derailing things or doing to him what he did you is all fun and nice but will make him feel justified. Take revenge by playing the way he should have been playing instead. Orchomenos said stuff I agree with. Now to the hard part. Regarding his actions agaisnt the party, I have to ask how he could have kept this character alive for so long. How in the world did he manage to stay part of the gaming group? Why do the other players like playing with him? I know you are supposed to allow people to play, but there is a limit of what can be tolerated. Either have him run a different kind of character or boot.
Lincoln Hills 01-09-08, 02:34 PM	Complain all you like, but the moment you agreed to play in Problem's campaign, you gave a certain seal of approval to his actions thus far. Saying, "No thank you: I'm sure the rest of the guys will have a great campaign under you, and I expect half of them will be back at my table within the month" is really the only sane response. Although the Attention Hog syndrome is eased somewhat when the Attention Hog is himself the DM, such people are generally about 17% as good at DMing as they believe themselves to be.
RobbyPants 01-09-08, 02:45 PM	This behavior did break up my gaming group for a while. I only started up again a couple of months ago, and tried to prevent this guy from coming back. Someone else told him we were playing and he showed up, sheet in hand. I still don't know why I didn't throw him out then, because he went out of his way to do the same thing again. Well, you know, it's never too late to throw someone out, especially if you've tried talking about it. But now I get to get revenge. Possibly. He stated his desires to run the campaign after I snapped at him. I told him I was getting tired of dealing with him, he said, "well a decent dm would know how to handle things like this." So now, like I said, I get to play, for the first time in years. He's setting up a campaign to run, and says he'll be ready to go this weekend. Should I return the favor, and go out of my way to derail things for him? Or take the moral high ground and let him run it without too much interference? As for your current situation, don't deliberately ruin his game. Passive-aggressive behavior begets passive-aggressive behavior. I've seen it too many times in all the years I've been gaming. There's nothing more annoying than when two people resort to passive-aggressiveness to take stabs at eachother, never attempting to resolve the issue. It might make you feel better in the short run, but there's a good chance that "the beauty of it all" will be lost on the DM and other players, and they'll just think you're a douche-bag. I'm probably coming off harsh, but I wanted to be 100% clear on my stance. Hopefully it all works out and you can all have fun.
I_roll_ones 01-09-08, 05:02 PM	Play in his game if you want. True, a good option is to walk away. However, you also state that you are willing to work things out and give him a chance. Also...Play LE. Legally and without doing something crazy such as Kablooie or Pun-pun. If you can use unearth arcana, perhaps the Paladin of Tyranny is a good option. And roleplay Lawful evil so you're so utterly lawful and yet power hungry. Try to convert, not kill! What's the point of conquering if you just kill it? And earn the respect of your fellow man...The worthy ones, anyway. You are not some uncivilized thug, you are capable of honor and worthy of servitude from others. But you're still evil and power hungry. See how he takes that. If the rest of your party isn't evil, either LG or CG might be an option. Power not for it's own sake, but to help. And if you do CG, you can show that chaotic is more then just lighting anything that moves on fire. And considering his behavior, I'm going to bet that the BBEG is over powered and wants to destroy the world for no reason. But, if you show that you are a good RPer and reasonable in your actions, the other people are more likely to take your side and you won't lose a group.
LordTarmos 01-09-08, 05:10 PM	What level is this character? The spell necessary to wipe out a town should be above all but epic levels. The player's can only do what their characters and the DM allow. If you allow it, the players will try it. What ever you do don't make it easy on him, just writing signs down would not be enough he would have to know the ritual as well. and what would be the side effects if (and chances are) he did the ritual wrong. even the smallest motion could potetially blow up in his face. or push him onto another plane the seeker of power should pay the prices involved in the task.
NordicBirch 01-09-08, 10:05 PM	One practical point to taking revenge. You can't. The DM always has more power. He will stop anything you try. Even Pun-Pun only works if the DM allows/follows all the rules required. Either he's good enough to do it right or he's nasty enough to twist the rules but he will stop you. Then you will have admitted that he was right, his style is right and that you're a lousy DM. (admitted to his mind I mean)
Kala2000 01-09-08, 10:23 PM	For the love of god dont try to f* his campaign up or anything. Just give your best to be a good example. Nothing good will come if you act like a 12-year-old.
Sinfire Titan 01-09-08, 10:58 PM	Next time you hold your game, the second he does that take his sheet. Then tell him Evil characters aren't allowed in your campaign. If someone else is also Evil aligned, confiscate theirs too, to be fair. Tell him he has to make a new character, and if the behavior continues, keep it up. Eventually, he will either leave on his own, or get with the program.
KillerVole 01-10-08, 12:16 AM	Don't derail his campaign. Give it a go. He may surprise you. Anyways, the best revenge advice I ever received was as follows: Always forgive your enemies; nothing bothers them more.
CroBob 01-10-08, 12:23 AM	What level is this character? The spell necessary to wipe out a town should be above all but epic levels. A town has, what, several thousand NPCs at most? The highest level of which are around level 5 or so? The vast majority of the rest are level 1 commoners or some such. Could you explain why a mid-level wizard could not kill the powerful of those people and cause the rest to run in fear?
Loftower 01-10-08, 01:39 AM	If the only reason that you are joining his campaign is to prove something, don’t bother. It’s either to enjoy the game or it’s a mistake. In your place I would pay a character that I would enjoy playing with another DM. I would play that character with the expectation that this DM would be reasonable (however difficult that might be). I would even strongly consider playing a humble character (or more so than average) so that the other players got more of a chance to stand out. If you blow up his campaign, do it by accident with good roleplay and creative solutions to the problems that he poses; not with an ambush. It is just possible that this guy is a good DM, in which case he won’t let you derail his campaign. If he isn’t any good, and you are the reason, shame on you; you’re no better than he is. If he isn’t any good, and you did everything reasonable to play along, the rest of the group will know who the problem is. In your game I don’t see a problem with the PC’s alignment. It’s all about the player. If the player meta-games to be more successful at abusing the other PCs or the world, and/or if the player enjoys inflicting discomfort and disappointment on the DM or the other players, then it’s not the PC’s alignment that is the problem. Most of us have played Evil PCs and all of us have played Evil NPCs. When I do that, I don’t want to subjugate, degrade, or harm anyone IRL; I’m just playing the game. The real-life goal is still to have a fun game for all involved. If Problem Player can’t manage that, he’d be a problem with a LG pacifist werekitten.
kuonji 01-10-08, 02:28 AM	I vote with the people who are saying to not even play in the guy's game. Cut your losses and move on. Next time you are running a game, just tell the guy that he is not welcome at your table. Let him complain and call you a bad DM or whatever, just ignore him and get on with having fun.
Morbid 01-10-08, 06:44 AM	moral high ground? what moral high ground? there is no moral high ground in a quasi-universe where the outcome of everything is determined by dice. Forget morality. You've been given a chance for payback. my advice? take it. as you get older you will learn to lament for those moments in life where you could've really stuck it to some jackass that desperately deserved it, but you didn't. Lets abandon completely the idea of derailing things. You don't want to derail things. You want to create a complete travesty that you and your friends will savor for years to come. Don't think "derail". Think "train wreck". It brings to mind more accurate images of death and dismemberment, as well as conjuring the woeful sounds of the screaming and bellowing surviviors as they mourn for their dead. If you are a DM of any accomplishment whatsoever you know what to do, and how to do it, when it comes to running a campaign right off the tracks. Just think about it: youve been victim of it yourself. Yeh, I definitely follow this. Life is short, he did it to you, make him realize why it's so bad.
toucanbuzz 01-10-08, 11:27 AM	You're for booting this guy from your games but you're going to reward him by playing in his? I wouldn't show on principle to play in this guy's world. If you are insistent on doing so, don't stoop to his level. As mentioned earlier, in his world he'll just stymie whatever you try, and then he'll criticize you for being the disruptive player. Lead and game by example.
Dog_O_War 01-10-08, 01:47 PM	Screw morality. Play a mage, were all you desire is power.....:evillaugh Seriously though, play the first 5 sessions just to see how he runs. If he's a complete and utter noob, then the game will destroy itself. If not, and the guy is constantly trying to "show you up" with his running, then screw morality. If he does a really poor job, but apologizes realizing how tough the job actually is, then take the high ground. Either way let the ball be in his court for awhile.
1 ton ghost 01-10-08, 03:26 PM	"for every action, there is a simple and opposite reaction." - newton or, if you rather metaphorically, "karma is a bi-ch." don't tolerate that "decent DM" crap either. no one else stepped up, so you shoulder all the responsibility. now that he is, artfully point out in like fashion the same he has done to you, except do it w/ more decency...ie)they way it should be done, not what he did. -he is 1 of 'x' PCs. they have a say too. it's democratic. that is, you go w/ the majority, not special interests if that doesn't sound too political. get their input as standing alone isn't cool. if they throw you to the wolves, then they're dicks and have no backbone. -showing up uninvited is in poor form. he was warned, tolerated (you showed infinite patience btw), etc, and this is how you're repaid? gaming is a social function beyond typical recreation. showing up unannounced and/or uninvited is shi-ty. speaks of entitlement and privledge, not to mention a lack of etiquette and grace. crush that. he was warned. if he didn't get it before using civility and tact, then this is probably the only way he'll respond. this has happened to me when i specifically stated, "4 PC party max, that's it." and they assumed, "we can squeeze our boy in." i said no, explained it wasn't personal, but that i was pi$$ed they backdoored me and said take it up w/ YOUR friends, not me. ie)should've asked first as i would've been more receptive and gracious. i said, "watch a movie in the family room if you want, make a sandwich, etc., but you can't game here." -you can play evil characters AND maintain party integrity/cohesion. he hasn't learned that yet. even ruthless assassins know their companions help facilitate their means to power and wealth. he's truly and idiot and selfish.