Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bartleby_GoC 10-05-04, 03:03 PM	I've been thinking about a two-world campain that would use an odd mechanic. The players each have a D&D and a d20 Modern character. They roll one set of stats and use the same numbers, but not necesarily in the same order, for both characters. They start out in one world and when the character falls asleep, the character inthe other world wakes up, and vice versa. Each character would beleive the alternate existance to be simply a vivid dream (Whoa! Dude! No more Chinese take out at 2am!) until plot elements start to bleed over from world to world. Eventually, they will become aware that yes, both worlds are real, and dying in one kills you in the other. The campain requires running missions in both worlds to succeed, maybe to the point that some problems can only be solved if there's characters acting in both worlds at once. I'm thinking time spent inactive would still count as sleep, so no bedraggled characters due to living in two worlds at once. Has anyone done something like this? How did it go? Anyone see obvious problems with the premise? Bartleby
Xeviat-DM 10-05-04, 03:27 PM	The only problem I see with the premise is that it is very difficult to execute. The reason you don't see it too often is because when you see it, it often fails. I wish you good luck though, this seems like an awesome idea. One thing to remember is that there is mental fatigue created from not getting much rest. From a biological standpoint, dreams only occur during the most light portions of sleep, or the REM stage (I've heard that there are deep stage dreams as well, but I haven't researched this). Dreams are seen as random replayings of memories from the day before, memories which are being gone over in order to "file" them away from short term to long term memory. In your world, this won't be the case. A few things. Make this idea uniform throughout the world, but have something special happen to the PCs to "awaken" them to this realization. I'd potentially require players to use the same mental ability scores for both characters, to unify their thinking capability, unless your players are able to RP many different characters (then they could understand that they are less capable of understanding when they shift from their Int 15 character to an Int 8 character). I'd also be careful about experience. Both characters should level up at the same time, even when one character does more work than the other. Perhaps allow some benefits to leak through, such as a character who is a frail schollorly wizard in the fantasy world, but is a broad shouldered bouncer in the other. I'm not sure what kind of benefits could leak through, but allowing some limited special abilities to come through would be interesting. Unify the mechanics as much as possible. Allow action points in both worlds, since d20 Modern uses them in the core rules. Still use D&D massive damage in the D&D world, and the d20 Modern massive damage in the d20 Modern world; this makes the real world feel more real and the D&D world feel more fantastic. One last question. Will the two worlds they exist in be coexistant and coternomous? Meaning, will the places overlap in both worlds? Will the continents be the same? Maybe there are some buildings which exist in both worlds. If this is so, it could allow you more control. Also, I'm assuming their bodies still exist on the other world. You may have issues, like when a group camps out but needs someone to stay awake to look out. The look out would then be asleep on the other plane. I suggest looking into Manual of the Planes and reading up on the Plane of Dreams for more ideas.
Law S 10-05-04, 03:28 PM	Can't delete posts? Too bad. I'll just PM my suggestion to the poster...
Ilium 10-05-04, 04:28 PM	Very cool idea, but the note about guard duty is a perfect example of how hard it will be to execute. Time will get funky too. If a character is awake for 16 hours, but his counterpart is only asleep for 8, what's going on? In most cases it won't matter, but if you're trying to coordinate action between worlds it'll get weird. You should make sure at least one of the fantasy characters has a Sleep spell and at least one of the modern characters has the medical background to use anasthetics :) I also like the suggestion of some places being the same in both worlds. You could start with the modern characters all spending a night in an old castle or something and having this really vivid dream. But when they leave, the dreams continue. And at some point, once the characters are established, one or more of them could physically cross over.
Kaedarn Everdark 10-05-04, 05:07 PM	This could definitely be interesting, although it may not be necessary to say the character in the "other world" is sleeping while the other is awake, they could actually be awake and doing very routine daily tasks (such as their job), or even say that at time both characters are doing almost the same thing (running in parallel) in the other world equivalent (would be interesting to do). Another thing you may want to consider for the endgame would be to use gesalt characters (not that you should or would tell your players about it before hand). So when you get to the endgame your characters would really be both versions at the same time. This may be the only "legitimate" use for gesalt characters that I can think of (except for crazy powergaming)., but it would definitely be cool for a climactic finish. Kaedarn Everdark
ck2001wendt 10-05-04, 05:11 PM	It's a good idea, but tought to execute: Player 1A is asleep hours 1-8, while his D20 counterpart is asleep hours 17-24. What happens the 8 hours in between? Another option is to make it a "4th wall" campaign, where the D20 players start out RPing D&D characters...only to find that "something has happened" and whatever goes on in the D&D world affects the D20 world, and vice versa. Could they actually be playing a MUSH that's gained sentience? That's not too fleshed out, but it's a thought.
Garith Dragonborn 10-05-04, 05:12 PM	I've actually read a book that was basically like this, but the name evades me right now(lol though i'm in a library) but i would love to see this camaign in action it sounds really cool
king_of_evil007 10-05-04, 06:06 PM	Kind of like a series of books. . . it was called like Everworld or somesuch, by KA Applegate (writer of Animorphs). Sorry if I got any of that info wrong, it's been far too long. Cool concept. My only problem is metagaming. Sure, you can try to run two campaigns at once, but your players will probably catch on to the fact that something's up before you start introducing the dual-world plotlines. Other than that, sounds like an EXCELLENT idea. Good luck should anybody decide to run it.
Vharuck 10-05-04, 06:45 PM	I don't see the problem with the times. I mean, just say that it works like you want it to. Just say that when they're asleep, time shifts in the other plane or their plane so that the time to sleep in one is the same as their time awake. Oh, and something you should add: an insomniac. One in each world. In d20 Modern, a homeless guy wandering around. In D&D, a homeless guy wandering around. I dunno. Have the guy be the same in both worlds (tell them that he's oddly familiar-looking) and ranting about the "other world" and how he refuses to sleep and slip into the alternate reality.
psionichamster 10-05-04, 07:32 PM	also look at Heroes Die & Blade of Tyshalle by Michael Woodring Stover both deal with the "real" and "fantasy" worlds (as well as having some of the best characterization i've seen in a while) i think the "dream world" could easily be what turns ordinary people into adventurers in DnD or gundam pilots or demolitions engineer in d20 modern, if you used the "4th wall" introduction, it'd get rid of the confusion and whatnot regarding the mechanics and ground rules, and give you a BANG to start. sounds like fun the hamster
Art_Tillary 10-06-04, 08:58 AM	have to agree with King of Evil about the metagame. If the characters have any memory of what they "dreamed" the night before and have any memory of their other life they'll metagame. More specifically, they'll use Modern ideas and tech to help solve Fantasy problems. They might have trouble doing the opposite unless magic works here. AT
therisenevil 10-06-04, 09:50 AM	Another idea would be to make the cahrs exist in both worlds parralel... And only when they dream they get together in the dream world...
hopoate!!! 10-06-04, 10:25 AM	Heh, nice idea What would be interesting, although even harder to pull off, would be to specifically run two campaigns, on different nights, but with the same group of players. For the D&D campaign let them roll up their stats, then for the modern campaign give them each other's stats from the D&D campaign, but give one guys stats to another and so on. Giving out stats isn't usual, so give them some RP-storyline-hoohar-fluff reason for it. That way they'd be playing their "own" character in one campaign, and someone else's in another. Like the guys above said though, sleeping/guarding etc would play havoc with the idea. Especially so if you're not telling the players what's going on ;) And if one PC died in D&D, you might have to "bump off" another player's character in modern...
Dash Branaghan 10-06-04, 01:45 PM	I've been thinking about a two-world campain that would use an odd mechanic. The players each have a D&D and a d20 Modern character. They roll one set of stats and use the same numbers, but not necesarily in the same order, for both characters. They start out in one world and when the character falls asleep, the character inthe other world wakes up, and vice versa. I gotta ask Bartleby...have you been reading The Talisman by King/Straub? I read it a long time ago, sounds almost the same, and I can't believe I didn't think of it...that is a totally wicked idea. Kudos to you for thinking of it and bringing it to everyone's attention. Dash
Lindan 10-06-04, 01:56 PM	Wow, great idea!! I'd go with a more parallel world/plane idea. Have some buildings the same in both worlds, and the same land masses, and even some npcs aswell. The "barmaid daughter of the inkeeper" in one world is the "waitress university studant" in the other. NPCs would have simmilar motives in both worlds. Like.....the traveling salesman, pulling is cart from town to town is the executive who traveles around to different business meetings... And I'd go with a "worlds collide" ending.
fish_heads 10-06-04, 02:33 PM	I actually concieved a similar idea - I was planning on getting together players, and then make characters based on the actual players in D20 modern rules. Then I'd have the essential "dream sequence" where we wake up in the same room we're playing in, but the world has gone all "silent hill" on us, and we have to escape to point X or whatever. never did get to doing that, but I might have to now that my interest has been rekindled...
Bartleby_GoC 10-06-04, 02:59 PM	I gotta ask Bartleby...have you been reading The Talisman by King/Straub? LOL Not recently, and anything beyond recent is lost to a foggy memory. Lots of great ideas! The sleep schedues would definitly cause some overlap problems, as would the loss of REM sleep. My idea now is that they would notice this and probably revert to 16 hrs of sleep in each world, with half of it as 'dreamworld' activity. Maybe they would eventually even out to twelve hours of active time in each world, no need to sleep (maybe a campaing specific feat?). I actually LIKE the idea of have different people active in different worlds, dependant on who is sleeping where. I get this really funny thought of some guy getting hit with a sleep spell in combat and then punching his boss, who's angrily trying to wake him up at work. The gestalt, overlapping climax is just too cool. Definitly something I will want to include! The trading characters for the other world idea is very intriguing. The cencern would be if player A get's his character killed, and player B is playing the counterpart, what happens to player B's counterpart character? Similar places and people are a must-have. After feedback and thoughts, it's probably best to keep the stats the same for both characters. I actually figured the mix of modern and medieval tactics wuold be a feature fo the game, not a drawback. Though they would certainly draw attention. The dream-world/sentient game thing would certainly be a workable (probably MORE workable) adaptation. However, I like the idea that there really are two people in different worlds that are simply linked. It would explain a whole list of personality disorders. The insomniac in one world might be the coma patient in another. Having two "awake" personalities at once could cause all sorts of problems! Thanks for all the input so far. Keep it coming! Bartleby
lostinabook247 10-06-04, 04:07 PM	I'm not sure how well this could be executed, but I have an idea for the issue of a character being killed in one world. What if instead of dying the somehow ended up in a permanent coma? Then, they would still be active in the other world - and maybe you could make them unable to sleep in the second world because they couldn't go back to the first and function. Perhaps part of the realization of the parallel worlds could involve using that knowledge to save the guy who's in the coma.
Aramil_silverwind 10-06-04, 04:39 PM	I can't remember offhand, but I think I remember seeing a variant in Unearthed Arcana about games like this... it might be a bit different, but I'd definately check it out if your into multi-world gaming. But this is a great idea. Let me know how the game goes once you get it going. Maybe I'll get one of my own based off of that design.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 10-06-04, 05:47 PM	I don't think you really have to worry about the sleep time differences. Every thing takes as long as it takes, but the time passage is a question of perception. Time is not constant. Also if things don't happen in sync then it may take longer for the players to catch on to the linkage of the planes. There is a skill in the MoP called Lucid Dreaming. Could be really useful. I like the gestalt idea as well. Overall sounds fun.
king_of_evil007 10-06-04, 06:20 PM	I don't see the problem with the times. I mean, just say that it works like you want it to. Just say that when they're asleep, time shifts in the other plane or their plane so that the time to sleep in one is the same as their time awake. Oh, and something you should add: an insomniac. One in each world. In d20 Modern, a homeless guy wandering around. In D&D, a homeless guy wandering around. I dunno. Have the guy be the same in both worlds (tell them that he's oddly familiar-looking) and ranting about the "other world" and how he refuses to sleep and slip into the alternate reality. The homeless guy makes it blatantly obvious. Maybe if you did it kind of subtly (like several sessions in between each encounter with the guy) it would be kinda cool when the players say "OMG, I knew someting was odd!". If pulled off correctly, that would be one of the coolest ways to show your players.
Shaftiel 10-06-04, 09:53 PM	The Light and Darkness War (comic) was a little like this. If I remember it right... when people died, they got sent to the "other" world to participate in this climactic good vs. evil battle. The main character ends up there b/c he's in a coma and it turns out that lots of the power players are in comas. Then, when he finally wakes up, he ends up sending himself back (you can guess how). It seems like, at some point, the characters would end up using knockout drugs, at least late in the campaign. "You missed your save, you fall asleep." "Where am I? Cool, do I still have my hypedermic on me? Okay, I inject myself." "Character X wakes up two rounds later." All sorts of weirdness like that. -Shaftiel
Bort333 10-07-04, 03:12 AM	Big issue is what happens when the PC's dont' all sleep at the same time? BTW a book that was similar to this was a series called Apprentice Adept by Piers Anthony. It didn't have to do with sleep, instead there were two worlds, one a world of fantasy and magic and another world of super hi-technology. "You" are on both sides. and tend to live similar lives. Occasionally one person will die but not his counterpart, this allows the counterpart to freely cross the "curtain" between worlds. Very good book, a lot of sexual activity though.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 10-07-04, 06:41 AM	BTW a book that was similar to this was a series called Apprentice Adept by Piers Anthony. The first one in the series is called Split Infinity if I recall. Been ages since I read those.
Iyestorm 10-07-04, 07:47 AM	Heh, I thought the book he got the idea from was Everworld. I'd play that campaign... except I don't know D20 Modern that well...
Bartleby_GoC 10-07-04, 12:29 PM	Hey yeah! I've read the Adept series (or at least, the first few books). Not Everworld though (again, I could have but not remember, just remember the AA series, so who knows?). I hadn't thought about using effects in both worlds to force sleep at the same time... I'm gonna have to think about that one... I have no problem with having differenc characters awake in different worlds at the same time. It's challenging, but interesting. I like MWIW's idea to simply warp time as needed, though with different characters n different worlds, that might be a little rough, and might make creating a sense of urgency harder. Good stuff all around, and a reminder of a book series I need to reread! Thanks all! Bartleby