Campaign Idea: No high-level spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Campaign Idea: No high-level spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Salla
03-07-05, 02:25 AM An idea just drifted through, as I work on a homebrew campaign. It's fairly well known that, at high levels, fighters just don't cut it, and that clerics and wizards have all the goods. Lots of people try to do 'low-magic', but the presence of magic items and spellcasters doesn't bother me ... but the high-level magic is sometimes a little much, compared to the fighter-types. So, I was considering a simple change:

The Arcane, Divine, and Psionic powers lists all stop at 6th level, and you can't take class levels that would take you past 6th level spells or powers. So, most classes top out at 12th level (13th for sorcerer), though the Ranger and Psychic Warrior get their full complements (the campaign doesn't suit Bards or Paladins). Past that point, spellcasters would have to Multiclass (though I suspect most would take Practiced Spellcaster, but that doesn't bother me either). I don't use Favored Classes or XP penalties for multiclassing, so that particular hose isn't an issue.

Monsters with class levels would have to obey the same restrictions, magic items that require 7th or higher level spells wouldn't exist (though spell-like abilities that emulate spells of these levels would be kosher, since they're 'innate powers' rather than learned things). It would limit quite a few Prestige Classes, though ... especially those with a full casting progression.

Is this too simplistic? Are there other implications of this system that I'm not considering?
srkingdavy
03-07-05, 03:32 AM How about this instead: wizards and sorcs can keep leveling as far as they want, but spells past level X don't exist. they can cast level X+n spells via metamagic, and their caster level can go up, but no spells exist past level X (or spells past that level are very rare)
Ssussunriyh
03-07-05, 03:45 AM I agree, don't give the spellcasters a glass ceiling. Just lop off the high level spells from the lists, but let them continue to cast more low-level spells per day as they gain levels, and boost them with Metamagic.
MinusInnocence
03-07-05, 04:15 AM In my own games, I've removed the spells Miracle and Wish. The latter still exists as a spell-like ability for certain creatures, but Miracle always seemed a little redundant to me; if Clerics are only capable of casting spells by the will of their divine patron, and the description for that particular spell pretty much says you're calling in a favor from a divine patron... what gives? Call me a tightwad but isn't it miraculous enough they can heal wounds instantaneously and talk to creatures from other planes of existence?

But, if all of the spells at that level are starting to bug you, I guess I see where you're coming from. I agree with the above posters, though, about allowing them to gain spell slots. Indeed, I think the world you're describing would be VERY interesting, as people would be using Metamagic all over the place!
angryman
03-07-05, 06:45 AM Well one solution to high level madness is...don't run high level games. Who cares if you can get 9th level spells when you're 5th level?
srkingdavy
03-07-05, 06:49 AM Well one solution to high level madness is...don't run high level games. Who cares if you can get 9th level spells when you're 5th level?

I have no idea what your point is. Are you suggesting that characters shouldn't be allowed to gain levels? Should the DM reset every PC after a certain point? seems a bit anti-climactic dunnit?
Lina_Inverse
03-07-05, 07:23 AM In my own games, I've removed the spells Miracle and Wish. The latter still exists as a spell-like ability for certain creatures, but Miracle always seemed a little redundant to me; if Clerics are only capable of casting spells by the will of their divine patron, and the description for that particular spell pretty much says you're calling in a favor from a divine patron... what gives? Call me a tightwad but isn't it miraculous enough they can heal wounds instantaneously and talk to creatures from other planes of existence?

actully,your patron(if you have one) doesnt DO anything for you to get spells.its all the clerics faith.miracle is requesting DIRECT intervention.or in the case of philoshopic clerics drawing up a huge load of there force.

but anyways,just remove 7+lvl spells from the spell lists and leave metamagic/augmenting for getting better spells.it would be kinda annoying to have psywarriors who manifest better than psion(manifestor level and augmentation).caster levels are REALLY importent you shouldnt just cut those away.
Burgundy Lotus
03-07-05, 07:42 AM I have no idea what your point is. Are you suggesting that characters shouldn't be allowed to gain levels? Should the DM reset every PC after a certain point? seems a bit anti-climactic dunnit?

He is saying that instead of limiting high level spells just don't take the campaign that far. Plan for it to end around 12th level and it wont really be an issue if the higher level spells exist.

None of the games I've DMed has seen a level higher then 13 so basically I'm playing this way already.
nyysjan
03-07-05, 07:45 AM i don't really like the idea personally
i usually play wizards or the like and higher level spells are there for me to aspire to
even if i'm kust level 1 and game stops around level 5
the highest level spells were there for my character to dream of and to hope for
Kross
03-07-05, 08:24 AM He is saying that instead of limiting high level spells just don't take the campaign that far. Plan for it to end around 12th level and it wont really be an issue if the higher level spells exist.

None of the games I've DMed has seen a level higher then 13 so basically I'm playing this way already.

no offense but i dont think its right for a DM to work on planning adventure after adventure just to end at a level if there is another solution. it kinda sucks to throw away all the other work. if you can't DM past a certain level maybe you should practice a higher level campain a bit.
Kross
03-07-05, 08:27 AM i don't really like the idea personally
i usually play wizards or the like and higher level spells are there for me to aspire to
even if i'm kust level 1 and game stops around level 5
the highest level spells were there for my character to dream of and to hope for

Salla asked "Is this too simplistic? Are there other implications of this system that I'm not considering?" not rather you liked it or wanted to use it. its his home-brew, lets be supportive and give other ideas instead of just saying "no i don't think thats good"
angryman
03-07-05, 11:12 AM I have no idea what your point is. Are you suggesting that characters shouldn't be allowed to gain levels? Should the DM reset every PC after a certain point? seems a bit anti-climactic dunnit?

To clarify; D&D is not a video game. Starting again at a lower level after a long campaign is the traditional standard. Also, on average, you would level up after about four sessions. If the average session is weekly, then you're looking at a year of playing time to get to level 10-12. Most of the campaigns I've played in have been 5-12th level. D&D gets a bit funny at really high levels- 9th level spells were designed to be ultimate spells (in 2nd ed.) that weren't actually balanced. Ported over to keep the feel of D&D, you have crazy spells above 17th level.
PurdueDave
03-07-05, 11:21 AM In response to the OP. Yes, it is probably too simplistic.

Would all spells above level 6 dissappear? Monster spell-like abilities as well? If you're in a spell-banning mood, "shapechange" is at the top of my list.

I'd expect players to suddenly make extensive use of prestige class combinations that have slow caster-level progression as the primary drawback (warpriest, master transmorgrifest, master of many forms, mystic theurge/arcana heirophant, warshaper, nature's warrior, etc.)

Also, IMO low-magic campaigns actually favor spellcasters because fighter and rogue characters are the ones who really need to buy their magical goodies.

If you feel things are grossly out of balance, it might be easier to try and elevate the non-spellcasters than nerf the spellcasters.
PurdueDave
03-07-05, 11:29 AM Also, on average, you would level up after about four sessions.
We've been playing published modules and leveling every couple of sessions or so. Say once every 16 hours of play time in the mid-levels. Once every four sessions seems a little harsh unless they're short sessions.
Aricandor
03-07-05, 12:49 PM The biggest leap in spell power is the gap between 8th and 9th level. After all, there is just no comparing Horrid Wilting with Shapechange. There is no real point to this statement, you should just keep it in mind. :)

Anyway, that system is a little too simplistic for my taste. If you do it your way caster levels will be feat dependent, and I do not think any players will like that. What do you do if you run into spell resistance at level 20? With a CL of 12 or 13 you'll not even dent the SR.
Letting spell slots and caster level continue to progress is probably the best. I'd probably put the limit at 7th level spells though. No particular reason, except that uneven numbers look better when limiting spellcasting (no, I do not like the 4th/6th level limits of bards and the like).

Epic levels would become a MAJOR headache (what to do about epic spells?). I don't expect you to go epic though, since epic levels in general is a major headache.
The Eye of Kyi
03-07-05, 12:58 PM Salla

I dont think there is anything wrong with your idea. Its your game, run it how you want. Just keep in mind that these kinds of rules have the possibility of driving off players, so you will want to discuss this with them first, make sure they are all OK with it. After all, its all about having fun for everyone involved.

Some stuff to consider.

The biggest thing I see is in a world where magic is limited thusly, death would be permanent. No 'bring back from the dead' type spells. Have you considered this and how you might balance things out?

Perhaps you could include lots of extra healing potions, or give everyone bonuses to their hit point rolls when the level up, or reduce the monsters HP a bit. Perhaps Adepts a more common in your world.

You will also probably want to warn your players that death is a permanent thing in your world. This might induce them to be a bit more careful when adventuring.

They might want to have a 'stable' of characters handy so when one dies they have a ready replacement.

As others have suggested I wouldnt put a cap on how high in level a spell caster can go. High level spells just dont exist in your world. I would however allow them to swap spell slots out for additional lower level spells, perhaps you might take it to a 2:1 swap ratio instead of a 1:1 swap ratio.

In a world such as this you will also be messing with the CR's of the higher level monsters, making some easier and others more difficult, but in general they will be more difficult encounters without the support of high level spells. More difficult encounters increases the chance for characters to die.

Finally you might consider since the magic level is a little bit lower, perhaps the tech level is a little higher. Perhaps there are primitive firearms, or perhaps Alchemists Fire is more readily available.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes!
allenchan
03-07-05, 01:18 PM Wouldnt elimination of high level spells also eliminate magic items, since the crafter needs to know a certain spell, and that certain spell no longer exists?

O(or, nobody has that high of a caster level)
The Eye of Kyi
03-07-05, 01:26 PM Wouldnt elimination of high level spells also eliminate magic items, since the crafter needs to know a certain spell, and that certain spell no longer exists?

O(or, nobody has that high of a caster level)

It certainly would eliminate certain magical items, unless they found their way to that world from other planes of existence where the spells still exist...

I guess something else to consider in a world like this is why arent the high level spells available.

If an aritifact that reproduces a 9th level spell effect pops in with a planar traveller, does the artifact still work? Can it still produce that 9th level spell effect?

I might suggest you read some George R Martin novels, such as a Song of Fire and Ice. This is a great example of a "low magic" world.
scott644
03-07-05, 03:58 PM Banning high-level spells....

I can see the players going bard, paladin and ranger for their spellcasting already. Forget PSC's - they're nerfed and can't exist at high levels, when they would actually be the most fun because of options. A definate challenge (and to a degree, hamstringing) of players who play by preference PSC's; you would find their play-skill generally lackluster as a result, with the rare exception of the player who enjoys change. Then again, players who enjoy change wouldn't play PSC's by preference.
Burgundy Lotus
03-07-05, 09:19 PM no offense but i dont think its right for a DM to work on planning adventure after adventure just to end at a level if there is another solution. it kinda sucks to throw away all the other work. if you can't DM past a certain level maybe you should practice a higher level campain a bit.

Sorry but I do take offense at that! Where do you come off telling me that since my group prefers low level campaigns that my games suck?
Lord Ian Stark
03-07-05, 09:27 PM Just get rid of the Maximize metamagic feat and spell casters somewhat come back down to earth when doing damage.
DM Denubis
03-07-05, 09:35 PM Sorry, but I can't call this a good idea. Wizards would be fairly ineffective in later levels. In addition to being terrible at lower levels, they'll once again be outstripped by melee classes at high levels. Yes, it's true that metamagic can help out your damaging spells, and it's usually true that metamagic versions of lower spells can outdo current spells, but you're forgetting about utility spells. Yes, there are some high level spells that break the game, but there are high level melee abilities that break the game as well. (Frenzied Berserker, anyone?)

Although a properly built cleric can still be useful, wizards will only have a small point in time that they are truly helpful. After that, the damage cap starts to catch up, and they no longer have the important utility spells, either.
Vatras
03-07-05, 10:13 PM You will probably have no spellcasters among your players when removing higher level spells, if the whole campaign is going on for a long time. Even if someone picks a caster he will probably stop playing it after the point without spells and roll up a new character.

If you want to reduce the magic level in the game, you have to take more preparations than just remove 7th plus spells. The easiest way to do it is to redistribute the 1st-6th level spells over 9 levels to create new spell lists (which also allows to include/exclude any spell you like from PHB, splatbooks and other sources). That eliminates all problems about PrCs too.
(I did once a whole new set of spell lists for AD&D, so I can tell you it is a lot of work.)
Second, you also have to remove all those abilities and powers from monsters too, or people will get them from morphing and PrCs. And third you have to limit the magic items to those which can be made with the reduced spell set, unless you want to use them as mini-artefacts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Salla 03-07-05, 02:25 AM	An idea just drifted through, as I work on a homebrew campaign. It's fairly well known that, at high levels, fighters just don't cut it, and that clerics and wizards have all the goods. Lots of people try to do 'low-magic', but the presence of magic items and spellcasters doesn't bother me ... but the high-level magic is sometimes a little much, compared to the fighter-types. So, I was considering a simple change: The Arcane, Divine, and Psionic powers lists all stop at 6th level, and you can't take class levels that would take you past 6th level spells or powers. So, most classes top out at 12th level (13th for sorcerer), though the Ranger and Psychic Warrior get their full complements (the campaign doesn't suit Bards or Paladins). Past that point, spellcasters would have to Multiclass (though I suspect most would take Practiced Spellcaster, but that doesn't bother me either). I don't use Favored Classes or XP penalties for multiclassing, so that particular hose isn't an issue. Monsters with class levels would have to obey the same restrictions, magic items that require 7th or higher level spells wouldn't exist (though spell-like abilities that emulate spells of these levels would be kosher, since they're 'innate powers' rather than learned things). It would limit quite a few Prestige Classes, though ... especially those with a full casting progression. Is this too simplistic? Are there other implications of this system that I'm not considering?
srkingdavy 03-07-05, 03:32 AM	How about this instead: wizards and sorcs can keep leveling as far as they want, but spells past level X don't exist. they can cast level X+n spells via metamagic, and their caster level can go up, but no spells exist past level X (or spells past that level are very rare)
Ssussunriyh 03-07-05, 03:45 AM	I agree, don't give the spellcasters a glass ceiling. Just lop off the high level spells from the lists, but let them continue to cast more low-level spells per day as they gain levels, and boost them with Metamagic.
MinusInnocence 03-07-05, 04:15 AM	In my own games, I've removed the spells Miracle and Wish. The latter still exists as a spell-like ability for certain creatures, but Miracle always seemed a little redundant to me; if Clerics are only capable of casting spells by the will of their divine patron, and the description for that particular spell pretty much says you're calling in a favor from a divine patron... what gives? Call me a tightwad but isn't it miraculous enough they can heal wounds instantaneously and talk to creatures from other planes of existence? But, if all of the spells at that level are starting to bug you, I guess I see where you're coming from. I agree with the above posters, though, about allowing them to gain spell slots. Indeed, I think the world you're describing would be VERY interesting, as people would be using Metamagic all over the place!
angryman 03-07-05, 06:45 AM	Well one solution to high level madness is...don't run high level games. Who cares if you can get 9th level spells when you're 5th level?
srkingdavy 03-07-05, 06:49 AM	Well one solution to high level madness is...don't run high level games. Who cares if you can get 9th level spells when you're 5th level? I have no idea what your point is. Are you suggesting that characters shouldn't be allowed to gain levels? Should the DM reset every PC after a certain point? seems a bit anti-climactic dunnit?
Lina_Inverse 03-07-05, 07:23 AM	In my own games, I've removed the spells Miracle and Wish. The latter still exists as a spell-like ability for certain creatures, but Miracle always seemed a little redundant to me; if Clerics are only capable of casting spells by the will of their divine patron, and the description for that particular spell pretty much says you're calling in a favor from a divine patron... what gives? Call me a tightwad but isn't it miraculous enough they can heal wounds instantaneously and talk to creatures from other planes of existence? actully,your patron(if you have one) doesnt DO anything for you to get spells.its all the clerics faith.miracle is requesting DIRECT intervention.or in the case of philoshopic clerics drawing up a huge load of there force. but anyways,just remove 7+lvl spells from the spell lists and leave metamagic/augmenting for getting better spells.it would be kinda annoying to have psywarriors who manifest better than psion(manifestor level and augmentation).caster levels are REALLY importent you shouldnt just cut those away.
Burgundy Lotus 03-07-05, 07:42 AM	I have no idea what your point is. Are you suggesting that characters shouldn't be allowed to gain levels? Should the DM reset every PC after a certain point? seems a bit anti-climactic dunnit? He is saying that instead of limiting high level spells just don't take the campaign that far. Plan for it to end around 12th level and it wont really be an issue if the higher level spells exist. None of the games I've DMed has seen a level higher then 13 so basically I'm playing this way already.
nyysjan 03-07-05, 07:45 AM	i don't really like the idea personally i usually play wizards or the like and higher level spells are there for me to aspire to even if i'm kust level 1 and game stops around level 5 the highest level spells were there for my character to dream of and to hope for
Kross 03-07-05, 08:24 AM	He is saying that instead of limiting high level spells just don't take the campaign that far. Plan for it to end around 12th level and it wont really be an issue if the higher level spells exist. None of the games I've DMed has seen a level higher then 13 so basically I'm playing this way already. no offense but i dont think its right for a DM to work on planning adventure after adventure just to end at a level if there is another solution. it kinda sucks to throw away all the other work. if you can't DM past a certain level maybe you should practice a higher level campain a bit.
Kross 03-07-05, 08:27 AM	i don't really like the idea personally i usually play wizards or the like and higher level spells are there for me to aspire to even if i'm kust level 1 and game stops around level 5 the highest level spells were there for my character to dream of and to hope for Salla asked "Is this too simplistic? Are there other implications of this system that I'm not considering?" not rather you liked it or wanted to use it. its his home-brew, lets be supportive and give other ideas instead of just saying "no i don't think thats good"
angryman 03-07-05, 11:12 AM	I have no idea what your point is. Are you suggesting that characters shouldn't be allowed to gain levels? Should the DM reset every PC after a certain point? seems a bit anti-climactic dunnit? To clarify; D&D is not a video game. Starting again at a lower level after a long campaign is the traditional standard. Also, on average, you would level up after about four sessions. If the average session is weekly, then you're looking at a year of playing time to get to level 10-12. Most of the campaigns I've played in have been 5-12th level. D&D gets a bit funny at really high levels- 9th level spells were designed to be ultimate spells (in 2nd ed.) that weren't actually balanced. Ported over to keep the feel of D&D, you have crazy spells above 17th level.
PurdueDave 03-07-05, 11:21 AM	In response to the OP. Yes, it is probably too simplistic. Would all spells above level 6 dissappear? Monster spell-like abilities as well? If you're in a spell-banning mood, "shapechange" is at the top of my list. I'd expect players to suddenly make extensive use of prestige class combinations that have slow caster-level progression as the primary drawback (warpriest, master transmorgrifest, master of many forms, mystic theurge/arcana heirophant, warshaper, nature's warrior, etc.) Also, IMO low-magic campaigns actually favor spellcasters because fighter and rogue characters are the ones who really need to buy their magical goodies. If you feel things are grossly out of balance, it might be easier to try and elevate the non-spellcasters than nerf the spellcasters.
PurdueDave 03-07-05, 11:29 AM	Also, on average, you would level up after about four sessions. We've been playing published modules and leveling every couple of sessions or so. Say once every 16 hours of play time in the mid-levels. Once every four sessions seems a little harsh unless they're short sessions.
Aricandor 03-07-05, 12:49 PM	The biggest leap in spell power is the gap between 8th and 9th level. After all, there is just no comparing Horrid Wilting with Shapechange. There is no real point to this statement, you should just keep it in mind. :) Anyway, that system is a little too simplistic for my taste. If you do it your way caster levels will be feat dependent, and I do not think any players will like that. What do you do if you run into spell resistance at level 20? With a CL of 12 or 13 you'll not even dent the SR. Letting spell slots and caster level continue to progress is probably the best. I'd probably put the limit at 7th level spells though. No particular reason, except that uneven numbers look better when limiting spellcasting (no, I do not like the 4th/6th level limits of bards and the like). Epic levels would become a MAJOR headache (what to do about epic spells?). I don't expect you to go epic though, since epic levels in general is a major headache.
The Eye of Kyi 03-07-05, 12:58 PM	Salla I dont think there is anything wrong with your idea. Its your game, run it how you want. Just keep in mind that these kinds of rules have the possibility of driving off players, so you will want to discuss this with them first, make sure they are all OK with it. After all, its all about having fun for everyone involved. Some stuff to consider. The biggest thing I see is in a world where magic is limited thusly, death would be permanent. No 'bring back from the dead' type spells. Have you considered this and how you might balance things out? Perhaps you could include lots of extra healing potions, or give everyone bonuses to their hit point rolls when the level up, or reduce the monsters HP a bit. Perhaps Adepts a more common in your world. You will also probably want to warn your players that death is a permanent thing in your world. This might induce them to be a bit more careful when adventuring. They might want to have a 'stable' of characters handy so when one dies they have a ready replacement. As others have suggested I wouldnt put a cap on how high in level a spell caster can go. High level spells just dont exist in your world. I would however allow them to swap spell slots out for additional lower level spells, perhaps you might take it to a 2:1 swap ratio instead of a 1:1 swap ratio. In a world such as this you will also be messing with the CR's of the higher level monsters, making some easier and others more difficult, but in general they will be more difficult encounters without the support of high level spells. More difficult encounters increases the chance for characters to die. Finally you might consider since the magic level is a little bit lower, perhaps the tech level is a little higher. Perhaps there are primitive firearms, or perhaps Alchemists Fire is more readily available. Good luck! Let us know how it goes!
allenchan 03-07-05, 01:18 PM	Wouldnt elimination of high level spells also eliminate magic items, since the crafter needs to know a certain spell, and that certain spell no longer exists? O(or, nobody has that high of a caster level)
The Eye of Kyi 03-07-05, 01:26 PM	Wouldnt elimination of high level spells also eliminate magic items, since the crafter needs to know a certain spell, and that certain spell no longer exists? O(or, nobody has that high of a caster level) It certainly would eliminate certain magical items, unless they found their way to that world from other planes of existence where the spells still exist... I guess something else to consider in a world like this is why arent the high level spells available. If an aritifact that reproduces a 9th level spell effect pops in with a planar traveller, does the artifact still work? Can it still produce that 9th level spell effect? I might suggest you read some George R Martin novels, such as a Song of Fire and Ice. This is a great example of a "low magic" world.
scott644 03-07-05, 03:58 PM	Banning high-level spells.... I can see the players going bard, paladin and ranger for their spellcasting already. Forget PSC's - they're nerfed and can't exist at high levels, when they would actually be the most fun because of options. A definate challenge (and to a degree, hamstringing) of players who play by preference PSC's; you would find their play-skill generally lackluster as a result, with the rare exception of the player who enjoys change. Then again, players who enjoy change wouldn't play PSC's by preference.
Burgundy Lotus 03-07-05, 09:19 PM	no offense but i dont think its right for a DM to work on planning adventure after adventure just to end at a level if there is another solution. it kinda sucks to throw away all the other work. if you can't DM past a certain level maybe you should practice a higher level campain a bit. Sorry but I do take offense at that! Where do you come off telling me that since my group prefers low level campaigns that my games suck?
Lord Ian Stark 03-07-05, 09:27 PM	Just get rid of the Maximize metamagic feat and spell casters somewhat come back down to earth when doing damage.
DM Denubis 03-07-05, 09:35 PM	Sorry, but I can't call this a good idea. Wizards would be fairly ineffective in later levels. In addition to being terrible at lower levels, they'll once again be outstripped by melee classes at high levels. Yes, it's true that metamagic can help out your damaging spells, and it's usually true that metamagic versions of lower spells can outdo current spells, but you're forgetting about utility spells. Yes, there are some high level spells that break the game, but there are high level melee abilities that break the game as well. (Frenzied Berserker, anyone?) Although a properly built cleric can still be useful, wizards will only have a small point in time that they are truly helpful. After that, the damage cap starts to catch up, and they no longer have the important utility spells, either.
Vatras 03-07-05, 10:13 PM	You will probably have no spellcasters among your players when removing higher level spells, if the whole campaign is going on for a long time. Even if someone picks a caster he will probably stop playing it after the point without spells and roll up a new character. If you want to reduce the magic level in the game, you have to take more preparations than just remove 7th plus spells. The easiest way to do it is to redistribute the 1st-6th level spells over 9 levels to create new spell lists (which also allows to include/exclude any spell you like from PHB, splatbooks and other sources). That eliminates all problems about PrCs too. (I did once a whole new set of spell lists for AD&D, so I can tell you it is a lot of work.) Second, you also have to remove all those abilities and powers from monsters too, or people will get them from morphing and PrCs. And third you have to limit the magic items to those which can be made with the reduced spell set, unless you want to use them as mini-artefacts.