Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Piggyfreak6 11-21-06, 11:48 PM	We've all had them. Those times when the Players role insanely high on the "boss" of a session and kill them 1st turn. Or, am I just unlucky, having it happen to me twice in the last two sessions? Well this session was the start of a BRAND NEW campaign. Fresh start, trying to make it more creepy and scary. When they encountered the BBEG, she was out for about 2 rounds when BAM! someone crits her and kills her. Seriously, he got over 35 points of damage. Being the BBEG this kind of kills the campaign. I fliped out and told them it was the end of the campaign, but I'm not sure if it should be. What should I do? Should I keep the campaign going, or start a brand brand new one? Has this ever happened to anyone?
TwiddleStootch 11-21-06, 11:51 PM	well it's never happened to me, but is that BBEG TOTALLY needed for the campaign to work? if not I say make a new one. Since it had just started, why not just replace that BBEG with a new one, doing the same stuff, which the PCs won't have known about yet.
d4everman 11-22-06, 03:51 AM	I'm not a DM but would this work? The BBEG's 2nd in command or Best Friend or even lover , who was extremely loyal takes over. He or she could have the same evil plot in mind with the added bonus that he or she is now super duper mad at the party for killing the BBEG.
CharlieRock 11-22-06, 04:10 AM	Continue the campaign. Heroes are supposed to beat BBEGs. I go through them by the dozens. Some recur later on, some stay dead. Its not like a chess game where once the king is gone, game over. What if the BBEG actually was the second in command to an even BerBEG? :plotting: Edit: The only thing that should really end a campaign is a TPK. Or, ascendence into immortality (but how often does that happen? :evillaugh )
pita 11-22-06, 04:33 AM	This is why I have rule 22: If necessary, your criticals will be fudged. Just like you don't want to lose your level 2 fighter to a lucky goblin, I don't want Vorthox the Insane to die in the first round of battle, especially if he's supposed to topple the Ivory Kingdom later on. If you complain, I will stop fudging the roles of your enemies so you have to face the embarrassment of fighting Nippa and losing.
Roivas 11-22-06, 04:54 AM	That is why I rarely have the villian encounter the players themself. It is easier campain speaking to have the master poerate through a large string of proxies. SOmetimes through direct mind control, others through threats, and most by simple strength of arms. The method actually doesn't matter, what does is that the player won't be able to get lucky and kill your big boss during their first meeting, well they will, but it will be at the climax. Another option is to make this antagonist unable to be killed through force, this forces players to discover their weakness prior to killing them. I don't recommend this as it can be frustrating for both players and GMs as the players blindly ignore your hints to his weakness and continue rolling dice at him. But the best way to ensure a long term villian is to make him obsure and invisible [not with the spell]. This makes finding the antagonist a part of the adventure. Though if you want them to do something big like level a city you had better be prepared for the players to stop them and possibly kill him.
Dowjin 11-22-06, 03:42 PM	Never, EVER, give the PCs a chance at the BBEG before you are ready for them to die. Talk about them as background characters to build up story, Or, if the spotlight NEEDS to shine on them, have them hang back a round or two and shoot off some scrolls/wands/spells to buff up. (So they can taunt the party and feel superior, or just so they can be paranoid) One out of twenty times "A quick skirmish and the BBEG retreats" fails. --- Also, non-verbatim qoute from the DMGII; the game serves the players, not the other way around. If the BBEG dies, thats just too bad. Have some contingency adventures to throw at them in such a case, and make them feel like really lucky heroes for stopping "that evil guy" before he had time to brew a truley nafarious scheme.
dmjacques 11-22-06, 03:48 PM	Dunno if this has been siad yet but if its the BBEG they killed shouldent it be a MUCH HIGHER lv then the pcs?
Bruunwald 11-22-06, 03:59 PM	A campaign needn't ever end, if you don't want it to. They killed the BBEG early? That's okay, the BBEG was working for some mysterious council which controls everything. They found and routed the council? No problem there. The council was in service to some demon lord of the underworld. The point is, there's always somebody bigger, badder and meaner than the last guy. If the game ends early, default to the next highest rung. Or just send someone (or something) to get revenge for their felled minion. As for unexpectedly quick endings, they happen to the best and most well-prepared of us. You never know which side (if any) the dice are going to favor, or if today is the day the players decide to finally work together. Funny story of my own from just this last summer: Party was hanging out away from the rain in an old abbey they had just acquired from an evil ranger and his goblinoid minions. Little did they know that in a secret basement chamber, a demon was waking after long centuries of slumber. I am used to most of this group of people each trying to hog some glory, so had tooled the demon to take them on as individuals. When the final battle came, imagine my surprise when everybody started pouring all their magic and strategy into backing up the paladin, who was particularly well-equipped to take the beast on. Together, they made her an unstoppable powerhouse against this thing. She (with some handy flanking help from the bard) killed it in something like four rounds. This was a major baddy! The trick with this sort of thing, is to know when to nerf (say, by secretly adding some hp or bringing in a minion), or when to let them have it. In this case, I thought their solution was so encouraging for the party as a whole, that it would have broken my heart to deny them. The most important lesson, in all of this, though, is to not allow for our own outbursts. Letting them know they ended the campaign early could be interpreted as scolding or assigning blame. Better to call the session early, if you have to, let them know you had a great time and need to regroup due to unexpected developments, give them a bonus for good thinking, and then come back next week with "The Real Climax." Always exude confidence. Don't let them see you sweat. Better yet, don't sweat it. It's your world. It'll work out all right. Give them their moments of triumph and roll with it. That's the nature of the game. Remember what Diamond Dave once taught us: "You've got to roll with the punches to get to what's real."
DarkRhystar 11-22-06, 04:06 PM	What should I do? Should I keep the campaign going, or start a brand brand new one? Has this ever happened to anyone? The same thing we do every game Piggy. Make stuff up. This happened roughly 3 times in one campaign to a DM I played with a while back. Every time he'd try to introduce a BBEG, it would be slaughtered pretty much on the spot. The look on that DM's face the first time was priceless and the deer-in-headlights look when we searched the body for treasure and asked what we found was even better. (Of course, to be honest, nothing in that campaign ever went the way it should have.) The simple truth of it is that you should always plan for your BBEG to die upon encountering the PCs. Regardless of how strong it is or how weak the PCs are, always assume the BBEG will die somehow. On the off chance that it happens, you'll be prepared. I suggest running with your original plot with a few tweaks for now, but working on something different in the wings.
JasonOrlandoHawk 11-22-06, 05:10 PM	Does the BBEG have any friends who know Raise Dead or Ressurection? Are there any infernals who would be willing to cut a deal and send his soul back to the material plane? Death is not as permanent in D&D as it is in real life. Not to mention, it gets really creepy when the BBEG comes back (or keeps coming back) from the grave. Quick solution: BBEG, while in Abyss, makes a deal w/ powerful Balor (or other individual) who agrees to "seal his life on the material plane" in return for favors. No matter how many times the BBEG is killed, he returns. To defeat him, the PC's must travel to the Abyss, confront the demon of choice, slay it, and then get back to the material plane and confront the BBEG one last time. However, as a final, nasty twist, the BBEG is even more powerful than before since he's no longer the slave to a demon. How does that sound?
Muspelheim 11-22-06, 05:19 PM	If you bring something into an encounter, there's a risk that it might die, almost no matter how good you think your plan for it is ... unless it's *vastly* more powerful than the players in which case you probably shouldn't bring it into an encounter unless the players deliberately have done something to trigger it. What you should do instead of sulking when the PCs beat up 'your guy' is having an idea as to how this will effect the rest of the campaign. If the BBEG is at the head of an organization, will there be a power struggle or does he have someone who can take over immediately? If it's an evil king/duke/ruler-of-some-kind, will his death cause civil unrest, rebellion etc.? In almost every case, your BBEG will control some kind of power structure with underlings, second-in-commands, chief advisors, court mages etc etc., because if they don't, there's not a lot of meaningful antagonists for the PCs, excepting random encounters and possible side quests. So even if the PCs manage to take the head out (for which they should be rewarded, both materially and in a story sense) there's still the rest of the bad guys to take care of, even if they have suffered a severe setback and have to go through power struggles before getting back to their former strength. Or else, you could turn the campaign in an entirely other direction - the vanquished BBEG might have been the only one keeping another entity in check, because he wanted a monopoly on evil or something. Of course, this most likely requires that you have a somewhat fleshed out world, or are *very* good at improvising. Also, there's no reason to fudge stuff, even if it can seem tempting to do so. Fudging is a bad habit and you can easily come to rely on it and if you start doing that, there's a severe risk that your players may notice it - and many players don't really find fudging to be all that great, because it lessens the impact their actual characters have on things. Why roll the dice if the DM will just tell what happens anyhow?
TriOmegaZero 11-22-06, 06:04 PM	In my first game, I led the team on about who was the leader of the army they were facing. First it was the ogre war hulk. Then they saw him report to the samurai minotaur. When they finally reached the end of the lair to fight the minotaur, the rogue was pretty shocked when he tumbled behind only to get blasted by the sorceror/dragon disciple. Who conveniently ran when his minotaur bodyguard started to lose. ^_^
MethosIB 11-23-06, 12:23 AM	Back to the Original Topic. I've had a "campagne killer" before the game even started, but it was my own fault as an inexperienced DM and really, I should have known better, having been playing RPGs for at least a decade. Anyway, I made a huge mistake in planning out the adventure and hooks long before the players made character and it made some assumptions about the types of characters they were going to run. Well, we all sit down to start making characters and immediatly I noticed some major differences in the fundamental values of the characters vs the plans I had made. While I can't remember the details, suffice it to say that their character's didn't mesh with the campagne I had layed out ahead of time. My solution? I took my Notebook of Dancy Planning (trademark pending) and threw it over my shoulder (which got a smirking applause since they were aware of the issue) and I winged the session. I think it turned out a bit more fun that way and I didn't put my wants as a DM over the wants of the players ^^
DKnight 11-23-06, 01:36 AM	What level where the players and BBEG? In my campaign I've got so many layers and Directions that I have a world of enemies to choose from. Want to head to the Wastelands? Fight some Necromancers. How about the Human Capital city, fight some Yuan-ti and their cultists and their grand schemes. How about those demon worshippers in the flying castle. Maybe a trip to the Underdark to get trapped between sides in the Drow - Mindflayer War. Set sail and to another continent, or fight the badguys in the depths. Start Plane Hopping and look for a fight. There's always a petty Warlord who suddenly got powerful or a Rogue Duke whose just became a Vampire to fight. There's a bunch of spells to help you return from the dead, purchase a Clone, costs 1500gp + casting costs of a 8th Level spell 2D4 Months and your new body is grown. -1 Level but you can have an Inert body in an out of the way place guarded by loyal minions and death is a simple matter of waking up with a thirst for vengance. This option is available to every class with enough cash. But what BBEG doesn't have these sorts of resources? Note my currant BBEG has more than 1 clone, it will be up to the players to shut down the clones before they kill him.
Pinch 11-23-06, 01:53 AM	What kind of BBEG dies so easily? Sounds to me like you need to toughen up your bad guys. Also giving any enemy "plot device invulnerability" sucks. There are enough ways to legally render any BBEG superior to low level PC parties that you don't need to fudge it. DMs who use techniques like that are just being lazy. Don't punish success. That's very frustrating to PCs.
AegisShade 11-23-06, 03:05 AM	Does the BBEG have any friends who know Raise Dead or Ressurection? Are there any infernals who would be willing to cut a deal and send his soul back to the material plane? Death is not as permanent in D&D as it is in real life. Not to mention, it gets really creepy when the BBEG comes back (or keeps coming back) from the grave. How is it that only one person thought of this?! Also, what about lichdom? Or just general undeadedness? What kind of BBEG dies so easily? Sounds to me like you need to toughen up your bad guys. Also giving any enemy "plot device invulnerability" sucks. There are enough ways to legally render any BBEG superior to low level PC parties that you don't need to fudge it. DMs who use techniques like that are just being lazy. Don't punish success. That's very frustrating to PCs. Screw invulnerability. What about just making an enemy tougher on the fly? That's not punishing success, it's making the PCs' victory worthwhile. During one random encounter, my party faced off with an incoming monster that we knew was coming. The DM described it as a Huge multiheaded snake that slobbered acid or somesuch, and at level 3, we expected it to be tough. We invented a simple yet effective ambush scheme that took about twenty minutes just to put together. The DM was laughing behind his screen because he had originally gimped it to a CR 2 or so Three-Headed Hydra. The ambush went off flawlessly and we were left with a bitter taste in our mouths as only half our party had even had a chance to inflict damage on it in the first round. Moral of the story: if the PCs do something well, reward them for it, but don't be afraid to raise the stakes a little so that they'll come out more worthy of their pride.
Muspelheim 11-23-06, 09:56 AM	Screw invulnerability. What about just making an enemy tougher on the fly? That's not punishing success, it's making the PCs' victory worthwhile. During one random encounter, my party faced off with an incoming monster that we knew was coming. The DM described it as a Huge multiheaded snake that slobbered acid or somesuch, and at level 3, we expected it to be tough. We invented a simple yet effective ambush scheme that took about twenty minutes just to put together. The DM was laughing behind his screen because he had originally gimped it to a CR 2 or so Three-Headed Hydra. The ambush went off flawlessly and we were left with a bitter taste in our mouths as only half our party had even had a chance to inflict damage on it in the first round. Moral of the story: if the PCs do something well, reward them for it, but don't be afraid to raise the stakes a little so that they'll come out more worthy of their pride. I very much disagree. In my opinion this just leads to an 'every-battle-feels-the-same' situation, which does not at all reward players for actually coming up with and executing good plans. In my current game where most encounters are pretty tough - according to the players - they are actually very happy and relieved whenever they succeed in coming up with and executing a plan which makes an encounter noticeably easier. Sure, a combat lasting, say, 2 rounds might not be as dramatic as one lasting 7 grueling ones - however, if every encounter (save random or minor, ressource-draining ones) is manipulated into the same feel by the DM, then the ones which actually *are* dramatic by their own merits, so to speak, seem more commonplace than they actually are. Also, if encounters are allowed to 'stand-on-their-own', then they have more of a chance to be truly memorable (for good and for worse) than if every meaningful encounter is fudged into being an epic struggle where everything hangs in the balance untill, at the very last opportunity to do so, the PCs finally manage to overcome the bad guy(s). The problem with adjusting things on the fly is that as soon as players catch on to it (and they most likely will if you do it often), there's the risk of them justifiably feeling like their characters don't really have the impact they should have. It's akin to railroading the plot in a major way, except that it's taking place in a combat situation. If everybody in the group are okay with running things this way, sure, go for it, but a DM ought to make sure beforehand that this is actually the case. Personally, I doubt that there are many players who will find it ok, if the DM actually asks them if he should adjust things on the fly, fudge rolls etc in order to make the game go in a certain direction; I might be wrong about that, though :)
tsuyoshikentsu 11-23-06, 12:44 PM	Until your group has taken down Kurtulmak, Gruumsh, Vecna, Nerull, Hextor, Erythnul, and possibly Wee Jas -- or Garl Glittergold, Yondalla, Pelor, St. Cuthbert, Corellon, and Heironneous, depending on which way they swing -- there's always one tougher BBEG out there. Heck, you could run them against the archfiends at level 20.
DarkRhystar 11-23-06, 12:58 PM	Does the BBEG have any friends who know Raise Dead or Ressurection? Are there any infernals who would be willing to cut a deal and send his soul back to the material plane? Death is not as permanent in D&D as it is in real life. Not to mention, it gets really creepy when the BBEG comes back (or keeps coming back) from the grave. How is it that only one person thought of this?! Also, what about lichdom? Or just general undeadedness? You're not, but it's usually a bad idea. What's the point of killing a bad guy if he keeps coming back to life? There's a point where the players (in my experience) get tired of it (usually after the 2nd time) and that takes the fun out of things. You're basically telling them "Yeah, you know that big battle you just won... meant nothing at all." There's also the matter of consistency since we're looking at the beginning of a campaign here. If the villain is high enough level to have access to raise dead and the like from associates, why is it wasting its time taunting the PCs and how did they manage to kill it in the first place? If the villain is weak enough to get killed how would it have access to raise dead and the like? Why not have used those powerful individuals instead of itself? Raise Dead and the like have their place in a good campaign but, like all DM tools, they should be used judiciously.
JerBar 11-23-06, 01:02 PM	When I created the campain that my players are running through right now, I left out the BBEGs and only put in a few minor NPCs for them to face. The ones that survived or the friends of the ones who didn't become the BBEGs, that way the players are creating their own worst enemies. BBEG to players when the first meet: "You don't remember me? You left me to rot in prison when I tried... er, when you accused me of picking your pocket, now I have become all powerful!!" (5 rounds later) "Cough, hack... you may have taken me down, but (insert name of new BBEG here) will come to avenge me"
AegisShade 11-23-06, 06:53 PM	I very much disagree. In my opinion this just leads to an 'every-battle-feels-the-same' situation, which does not at all reward players for actually coming up with and executing good plans. In my current game where most encounters are pretty tough - according to the players - they are actually very happy and relieved whenever they succeed in coming up with and executing a plan which makes an encounter noticeably easier. Sure, a combat lasting, say, 2 rounds might not be as dramatic as one lasting 7 grueling ones... I'm not saying that every battle needs to be the Epic Final Battle Which Shall Be Chronicled Through the Ages. Merely that if the players are expecting some sort of challenge and are putting a lot of time into their preparations, don't make them feel like their efforts were completely useless. The CR 2 hydra I mentioned wouldn't have had to turn into a five turn battle, but it would've been nice to have it last for more than half a round. As a DM, you may have had a time or two when you spend hours prepping an adventure only to have the players walk in the opposite direction. This feeling you get is quite akin, IMO. The problem with adjusting things on the fly is that as soon as players catch on to it (and they most likely will if you do it often)...What? Why? Can't you keep them from knowing? What's the point of killing a bad guy if he keeps coming back to life? There's a point where the players (in my experience) get tired of it (usually after the 2nd time) and that takes the fun out of things. You're basically telling them "Yeah, you know that big battle you just won... meant nothing at all."There are ways of incorporating it into the story without being contrived. Finding out how to keep the villain dead could be half the adventure. Plus, you don't need to play them the same way each time, making that certain villain equivalent to several different ones.
Muspelheim 11-24-06, 03:13 AM	The problem with adjusting things on the fly is that as soon as players catch on to it (and they most likely will if you do it often)... What? Why? Can't you keep them from knowing? Perhaps you can, but is it really something you want to do? If the wizards initial save-or-die at the perceived worst threat fails in every meaningful encounter, the barbarians charging 150+ dmg crit isn't enough etc. then at some point they probably will sense that something is amiss. Sure, you probably *can* be very subtle about it but why jump through all those hoops? If you roll the dice, accept the outcome, otherwise just dictate what happens (yes, if it's critically important that this NPC gets away, just make it so without pretending that's it by luck of the dice or something). It's the same thing really, except that in the one case the players mistakenly think they can actually influence the outcome of an encounter. EDIT: grammar fix
TarlSS 11-24-06, 05:10 AM	Like in spy movies, your BBEGs need not 'encounter' players. Illusions, letters and other sorts of things are always good proxies. Better yet, take a queue from gargoyles and disguise your BBEGs as normal grunts. Then if any of the grunts survive, later reveal him as the BBEG. (Taking off a mask in an illusion, same handwriting, etc.) If he dies as a grunt, just don't reveal it and proceed as normal.
lord_blackfang 11-24-06, 08:59 AM	I fliped out and told them it was the end of the campaign, but I'm not sure if it should be. What should I do? If you flip out when a player has a good die roll, maybe you should give up DMing for a while.
Doom_Linnorm 11-24-06, 09:01 AM	A true DM should just bend the rules a bit (without players noticing) to sneak out of situations that collapse the Campaign structure. In situations where the BBEG MUST NOT DIE but gets critted, just pretend he/she had more hp then that "becouse you designed it to be tough" and then innitiate the escape plan of the BBEG which has a miraculous amount of surplus hp and mysterious magic items that block spells and damage when near death. Just don't make it to obvious and admit every once in a while that you bent the rules to keep the campaign alive. Works for me, players happy, story right on track.
CharlieRock 11-24-06, 09:14 AM	Dunno if this has been siad yet but if its the BBEG they killed shouldent it be a MUCH HIGHER lv then the pcs? Not necessarily. I have about a platoon full of BBEGs ,the players interests and goals bring them into conflict with whichever one is 'there' at the time. This way, I don't need a cthulhu-like monstrosities or "I am THE Lich" kinda guys. Just evil Zotok the local captain of the Assassin's Guild and Orc Warlord #12. (one orc warlord actually has escaped the PCs wraith on several occasions and graduated to Named Villain status.) This works for me, since by around lvl.12 the players get that 'I want to roll a new character' itch. I even recycle survivng BBEGs from one campaign to the next ... across settings. The most notorious of my recurring Villains has made an (slightly altered) appearance in CyberPunk2020, StarWars d20, BESM(tri), and now D&D3.x. :evillaugh
LiXinjian 11-24-06, 10:02 AM	Knowing when to fudge a roll, adjust on the fly and indulge in other "cheaty" behaviours, is probably the biggest skill a DM can learn. One trick is to remember that the main goal is to have fun. Usually, fun comes from overcoming challenges, in whatever form. But too much hassle and unfairness quickly kills the fun. A hasty victory against a nameless opponent means nothing to the players. It might as well have been a random encounter with a house cat. If it also spoils your whole campaign at the same time (you have examined alternatives and none really fit), then CHEAT. Your game will be better off. A hasty victory against a BBEG, after the PCs have gone through a perillous dungeon, fought through dozens of encounters and used considerable resources will bring relief to the players and make for a memorable moment. DO NOT CHEAT. Relying purely on luck to govern your game is like trusting a hundred typewritting monkeys to come up with a solid storyline. It can happen on the first try, but the odds are not in your favour. Now, there are all kinds of situation where you should or shouldn't cheat, and too numerous to list here. Just trust your instincts. CHEAT to give an unlucky player the chance to shine. DO NOT CHEAT to punish a player who's been doing something really stupid (unless he's been doing it regularly). Exercise judgment. Take good care not to lose the trust of your players by abusing in any way of your so-called "power". And don't break down. Smile as if it had all been planned, fool your players into thinking you are a real genius, and frantically wing something decent. Whatever you do, don't break down. Don't sell yourself cheap. Keep your secrets to yourself.
BrazilRascal 11-24-06, 11:00 AM	Keep it going! The random chance of something like this happens makes it fun for the DM as well. In my Greyhawk game, the PCs were being horribly haressed and attacked by Jumper, one of Iuz's most powerful minions. He went to the point of planting a Tarrasque-worthy monster in the sewer under their city, buffing it with all sorts of spells. The PCs found out, of course, and went there to fight the beast, at tremendous cost (Jumper had bailed and was watching the events remotely). When the monster was almost dead, however, he couldn't resist teleporting in and using a Heal-rod to bring the creature back to full health (This was in 3.0). He lost initiative for the next round, though, and the PC's were surprisingly fast on their noggins. They cast Dimensional Anchor on him, then an Anti-magic field just in case. If he moved out of the field, he'd be attacke and swallowed whole by his own monster (it was a blindly mad, furious critter, not really under his command). If he stayed there, he'd be beaten to tomato juice by the PCs. In the end, he tried to move and got swallowed. That ruined a big confrontation I had saved for the end, but it was honest, and amazingly fun for all involved. I'm against depriving players of thwir earned successes. There's always another idea, another villain, another cool encounter ahead.
Muspelheim 11-24-06, 11:00 AM	If so many DMs are advocating fudging, cheating, changing the outcome of encounters based on *their* perception of how the story should proceed, I wonder why said DMs even play DnD which, after all, is a pretty 'crunchy' system. Why not just gather round and play freeform, some other less rule-intensive system or even 2ed where all participants are in agreement that the DM should just decide how a lot of stuff goes instead of leaving it to chance and the players' and their characters' capabilities? At least, that way everybody would be clear as to what to expect out of the session. I'd be very annoyed if I found out my DM fudged/cheated on a regular basis, in the same way it would annoy me if everything was heavily railroaded, storywise. Sure, play whatever way you like, but I think you should be absolutely certain what the consensus is regarding issues such as fudging before you just go ahead and do it. The main thing I have against stuff like fudging and railroading is that it severely lessens the impact players have on the actual story and outcome. It becomes much less of a mutual effort and more of a story told by the DM where the players have just a little bit of influence on minor stuff.
Tharivol_Nailo 11-24-06, 11:34 AM	Iv'e had it happen before. What i did was twist it so the BBEG was ressurected by a necromancer, and by making a pact with Nerull he came back even more powerful. You could work something like that into the campain. Also it would give them a sense of security that u could break.
darkhellion21 11-24-06, 12:41 PM	If you don't want the BBEG to get whacked, you just need to be smarter with him. For example, I have a villain that my PCs are going to face in a dungeon loaded with traps and minions, and the guy has several different spells that he can use to escape if things get too rough (Gemjump and Lesser Ironguard- that way he can drop iron doors and walk right through them). The trick is to keep things exciting for your players and to challenge them without making it impossible or easy for them to win. Besides, you should want to make the BBEG a focus for the party's attentions (causing them enough misery and frustration in every way possible) that they will relish finally beating them "once and for all." Besides, even if someone dies that you had planned to survive, it's not the end of the campaign world. Unless their death triggers such a catastrophic event... :lightbulb
EscherEnigma 11-24-06, 02:12 PM	Unless their death triggers such a catastrophic event... :lightbulb And then you just pull out D20 Apocalypse, advance the story about 10 years, and keep going. Ok, maybe that won't work for YOUR game. Anyway. The point is: Contingency plans if you have the drive, patience, motivation for them, or improv if you don't feel like it. Don't blow up at your friends, it's not like you hand out a script at the beginning of each session telling them who to kill and who not to kill, and to talk to the priestess of the temple of underwater basket weaving to learn that the BBEG can only be killed by a bronze dagger forged in the celestial forges and bathed in the blood of an archon. So if things don't go as planned... roll with it. This is a game, you're here to have fun, and it's not fun to yell, or to be yelled at.
CharlieRock 11-24-06, 02:49 PM	Keep it going! The random chance of something like this happens makes it fun for the DM as well. Well put. :cool:
SeraphimDominion 11-24-06, 08:11 PM	The gist of my thoughts on the matter are this: If your BBEG, the main enemy of your ENTIRE CAMPAIGN, and without whom you have no idea what to do, has less than 35 hps, maybe you shouldn't put him on the map. 35 hps is well within the critical damage range of a 1st level PC with a x3 crit weapon.
Muspelheim 11-24-06, 09:02 PM	The gist of my thoughts on the matter are this: If your BBEG, the main enemy of your ENTIRE CAMPAIGN, and without whom you have no idea what to do, has less than 35 hps, maybe you shouldn't put him on the map. 35 hps is well within the critical damage range of a 1st level PC with a x3 crit weapon. Heh, you could probably manage 35 dmg at level 1 without a crit somehow. And it's easily achievable with a regular x2 crit. 18 STR fighter deals 2d6+6 dmg with a greatsword. A 12 on 2d6 is 1 in 36; not *that* unlikely. Make that fighter a raging half-orc barbarian and you have 2d6+10 dmg. Power attack for 1 point and you deal more than 35 dmg in over half the cases when you crit. In a 32 point buy, maximizing strength is not *that* far-fetched, though probably ill-advised, all in all.
Piggyfreak6 11-25-06, 12:01 AM	Well, I talked it over with the Players, and they said they wern't angry. They forgave me for getting angry, but I decided I'm going to end the campaign. I asked most of them back (one kept talking OOG, and has been known to in other campagins to, so I'm won't be inviting him back). My next one will be played in maybe a week or too. And trust me, I won't allow them to get their hands on the BBEG this time. Thank you for all the help.
Endarire 11-25-06, 01:12 AM	My favorite way to use BBEGs is to trick the characters and players. Give them at least one obvious redeeming quality and let the players and characters determine who's telling the truth. This is especially helpful if you can convince the characters that the BBEG is good and powerful rivals are evil. -EE
Clockwork_Apparition 11-25-06, 01:44 AM	Oops. Double post.
Clockwork_Apparition 11-25-06, 01:46 AM	If your BBEG wasn't THE Devil, Chtulu, or Tinkie Winkie, there's always another BBEG that called your's a flunkie.