Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pegasos989 06-20-07, 01:21 PM	So, I have a problem. There is a reason why very few of my campaign ideas actually get to the gaming part... "Hmm... Okay, so what? I want to make campaign with a lot of undead. Why are there? A necromancer trying to... Nah, not again. An evil god... No... An artifact has been found... No... Okay, I got it. A race with ties to negative energy has arrived to this plane... Why? Well, <name>, a necromancer kinda succeeded on his expirement to create a new kind of undead but during that, there was a massive negative energy burst that attracted them. So the PCs will need to fight the new undead race, the negative energy race, possibly the necromancer and if they find everything out, the necromance might even become a valuable ally..." Okay, so okay so far... then... "Soo... How will they beat this race? ... ... god damn it. I need another plot." That thing happens with most of my campaign plot ideas. I fail to see a way that would actually let them fix the situation. I think that finding an artifact to fix everything is too boring. I can pass this by choosing campaign plots with clear goal and way to solve. For example, if the point is to find a kidnapped prince, naturally the way to solve it is to find him... But this limits my options significantly. What kind of world-shattering problems have you DMed and what did PCs do to solve them?
Renvale999 06-20-07, 01:27 PM	Slow down first of all. There is nothing wrong with generic plots. You need to count on/realize that your players will change things and make more plot twists in a game then you can realize. For example. "Okay so you just defeated this weird looking monster and as far as you can tell it has ties to the Negative Energy Plane. PC1: I bet some necromancer is expiermenting on the Negative Energy Plane. PC2: Or he's here on our plane and hidden away somewhere PC3: We need to find out if anyone has see these things before, maybe in the ancient past? Right there you've three to four plothooks you could run with...It's funny, but my guys never realize how much they affect my storyline by just talking amongst themselves.
RobbyPants 06-20-07, 03:50 PM	I had one plot several years back that made me think long and hard on how I wanted to run my worlds from that point on. The whole idea was that the princess of one nation was assassinated. This was beginning to lead to war. The PCs had to investigate to find out that a third culpret was actually playing both sides, hoping to come out on top in the end (think Sum of All Fears). So, this whole, many-session-campaign was just starting, and one player asks: "Why didn't the king just Resurrect the princess?" :eek: Why didn't the king just Resurrect the princess? :eek: To be honest, I don't even remember how I ended up justifying that one, but it got me thinking with how to handle such magic in future campaigns. For now, what I often do is have it considered unethical to bring someone back. This type of intervention isn't taken lightly. So, often, the only ones willing to do it are the less scrupulous clerics.
Escef 06-20-07, 04:05 PM	How's this for a plot? Two merchant clans are having a private war. Sometimes one side will hire you, sometimes the other. Sometimes monsters meant to attack one of the factions get loose and must be dealt with. See, not every villian is trying to rule the world.
PenderGrass 06-20-07, 04:24 PM	One sure way to make a campaign doomed to fail is making one of the PCs pivotal to the success of the campaign goal. Sure enough, that one PC will get himself killed - unless you step in and "save" him (in which case, everyone knows you just "cheated" for him). Yep. Never make a PC so important that you can't kill them. On the other hand, I have had PCs think they were that important and then be totally caught off-guard when they died anyways. DM: You're dead. Player: Wait. You can't do that. If I die no one can stop the evil lich king from freeing the god of chaos. DM: Ah. Thanks for reminding me. DM (to everyone else): The god of chaos is released. Prepare for major pain and suffering. Players: Sh*t. :dragon: ****
RedRory 06-20-07, 05:00 PM	One point I'd make about the rut of plotlines is not every campaign/plot has to be about stopping the end of the world. In fact I'd suggest developing a plotline that is centred on a rather small location like a frontier town or other small settlement. Flesh it out have some sessions around it. Introduce NPCs the party begins to have a relationship with. In short make them care about their surroundings. You'd be surprised what lengths they will go to protect that. It probably doesn't work once your about 10-12 level but then to be honest the game does break down shortly after as well you kind of have to go fight Demogorgon or well whoever.
Anathema 06-20-07, 10:29 PM	One thing I can recommend is to not try and build a plot, and then build the NPC's in to the plot. Build the NPC, then figure out what nefarious plots this NPC would be up to, and finally figure out how the PC's can intersect. Even as something as simple as someone trying to complete their weapon of legacy can lead to a lot of different stories with an easy tie together.
Mr_Crepsley 06-20-07, 10:57 PM	Not a whole campaign, but once i spent a hours designing a room that was very high up, and there were thin beams going from hanging platform to platform, with nasty flaming spikes at the bottom... then realized that all but one member of the group had Spider Climb one way or another, and were probably just going to spider climb around the walls
Pegasos989 06-21-07, 09:12 AM	One thing I can recommend is to not try and build a plot, and then build the NPC's in to the plot. Build the NPC, then figure out what nefarious plots this NPC would be up to, and finally figure out how the PC's can intersect. Even as something as simple as someone trying to complete their weapon of legacy can lead to a lot of different stories with an easy tie together. This might be worth giving a shot for. Thanks for the idea. One point I'd make about the rut of plotlines is not every campaign/plot has to be about stopping the end of the world. In fact I'd suggest developing a plotline that is centred on a rather small location like a frontier town or other small settlement. Flesh it out have some sessions around it. Introduce NPCs the party begins to have a relationship with. In short make them care about their surroundings. You'd be surprised what lengths they will go to protect that. It probably doesn't work once your about 10-12 level but then to be honest the game does break down shortly after as well you kind of have to go fight Demogorgon or well whoever. Well, I have concidered something similar but ran into a problem. Hard to get magic items, potions or similar if it is a small place with nobody powerful. If it is a bigger place with more powerful people, why don't they deal with the problem while PCs are lower level?
northern_bear 06-21-07, 09:53 AM	"Soo... How will they beat this race? ... god damn it. I need another plot." Just because you don't see a solution, doesn't mean the players wont. Throw them in there. Maybe they'll surprise you.
Confusion567 06-21-07, 01:41 PM	I have no idea how my campaign will end. I mean, I've got a vague idea that boss A is actually working for boss B, a vague idea that boss B has position X, and an even vaaaaaguer idea what boss B's general plan is. Because honestly? It's not gonna come up for a while. I have time to think.
RobbyPants 06-21-07, 02:03 PM	I have no idea how my campaign will end. I mean, I've got a vague idea that boss A is actually working for boss B, a vague idea that boss B has position X, and an even vaaaaaguer idea what boss B's general plan is. Because honestly? It's not gonna come up for a while. I have time to think. The nice thing about that approach is that it's kinda hard for the PCs to foil your grand plot several sessions in advance. ;)
millerwc 06-21-07, 02:04 PM	Well, sounds like you've run out of ideas about how to save the world. So how about something set in the aftermath of a failure? Someone was supposed to save the world, they failed, and now everything has already gone to hell. Perhaps the evil empire is in control of everything, perhaps an empire has just fallen to the invading -insert monster here- hordes. Perhaps the bad guy was able to use that artifact to remake the world in his image, and the PCs are part of an underground movement to overthrow him. Perhaps two nations are engaged in a cold war, where both sides control weapons of destructive power large enough to assure mutual destruction if ever used, and there is a terrorist group trying to start said war.
Alric 06-21-07, 02:12 PM	Thats true, you just need an overall idea to start with. You don't need to figure out the solution or ending of it ahead of time. Really you only need to plan out a game and half ahead of time. You can get a dozen games with them just trying to figure out where the undead game from.
i_am_some_guy 06-21-07, 02:27 PM	I always start with the NPC. What are his plans, his desires, how'd he get to where he's at. In fact, I started a campaign with a lich in training. He was a necromancer, young guy, just learning. I started with the NPC. Found out level he had to be in order to cast animate dead and made him that level. Players end up in this small out of the way town. They're at the tavern when someone comes and asks them to find out why the bodies keep disappearing from the graveyard..... Every monster they ran into was something made by him from the spells he had access to. The beauty of this was it had the feel of a "random" adventure; something tossed in. But the plan for this NPC was that he'd get to L20 and make himself a lich.
Lazigothi 06-21-07, 05:12 PM	What I can't anticipate is what would simply interest players before their character start to interact with the world. If I have a big end-game countdown to unleashing dragons, it will be anticlimactic if the players have come to find dragons boring. I try to start small and keep the horizon open for multiple scenarios of "the big picture" for a campaign-sized arc that isn't necessarily the "end of the world." If I can get from the players before they even start, and watch to test drive them, finding out what they find interesting, what motivates them, what their goals are. In my current campaign, the Elf was given a campaign arc right away. She comes from xenophobic woodland Elves that have allied with an evil Green Dragon. She comes from a faction that speculates on the benefits of trade and cross-cultural interaction with other, neighboring races while a rival, and "dominant" faction prefer status quo. To appease both factions and keep internal peace, the High Druid has proposed a ten year mission of recon. Both factions chose emmisaries to gather support for their side. After ten years, they must return and report their findings to the High Council of Druids. What the player knows: The Elf has 10 years to travel and research about 3 to 4 nearby countries, gathering numbers (population, soldiers), learning political-social-religious climates and sentiments. The parties must be discreet, they have no official authority to speak to governments as representatives, and that failure to survive and bring back any findings will forfeit the faction's case, defaulting to the current status quo. What the player doesn't know: The current High Druid is strongly connected to the Dragon as a means of preserving the current peace. Keeping themselves isolationist will keep the Dragon content. What the High Druid doesn't know: The Dragon, true, doesn't want intruders, foreignors, etc. coming into Her forest, but that doesn't mean She still won't find a detailed, fact-finding report on nearby countries without usefulness. The Dragon can at least learn from the luxurious comforts of Her own dwelling if She has anything to worry about, and if there's anything worth snatching for Herself. The Dragon has a few contingencies in place to make sure that whatever reports are brought back, that, depending on what the reports say, that Her interests "will" be served. In the meantime, the Elf has liberty to adventure as desired. After 10 years, as choices help shape the big picture, I'll come up with something that will affect and interest the Elf. (Probably something psionic since the character is a Psion.) I have no ideas for artifacts and world doom, and I don't need them yet. Edit: Also, any campaign will automatically fail if the DM has already judged it so without even starting. What may seem "hokey/ cheesy" to you shouldn't be an assumption for your players. This "is" D&D, and there "will" be aspects involving the undead or negative material plane, and it's all been done before and cliche, but you just need to find something you and your group will be interested in. If they enjoy undead, it's fine to cater to that. There's bound to be dragons and devils, evil wizards, and astral aberrations lurking around, but something should appeal to them.
Pegasos989 06-21-07, 05:22 PM	Thanks to everyone, this has been a helpful thread so far. Lazigothi, I will propably "borrow" that hook (Well, not with elves and stuff but simply telling players to search for information about the neighbouring countries and let them figure out how, what and when theirselves. I can already imagine how, as the time progresses, they are becoming to seem more and more suspicious in neighbouring countries and lords send specialists to spy on them...). Thanks for giving me insight to running a completely diffrent kind of plot...
Lazigothi 06-21-07, 05:40 PM	You're welcome, Pegasos. I'm honored you'll use it. As a side, that idea came after a long time of thoughts, having a new-to-the-game player excited to play but without any ideas for "big" goals. Part of the challenge came from my world being homebrew, but I think having everything fleshed out would still overwhelm her with choices. I had generalized ideas of places and races, and simple choices helped me shape and make a goal for her. I presented it to her, and she was happy and excited about it. I let her know that if she has one of her own, or develops one to let me modify her progression in the campaign. Maybe she will want to find a special psionic item or find out why all these weird, glowing crystals pop up where they do as she learns to develop her own goals.
Dunsel 06-21-07, 05:47 PM	I feel rather repetitious following a Lich plot with yet another Lich plot, but Liches are SO cool! When the PCs were 1st level and in a very small farming town, think Hommelett (sp?) there was a large battle against a lich nearby. The lich was defeated by the PCs but they never found the phylactery. Before the battle, the lich placed her (yes her) phylactery into a child (3 years old) to keep it safe. And yes, I know the lich should have safeguarded the phylactery in some dark crypt somewhere but I went a different direction. The PCs, being natives to this town, knew the family and their child. They adventured for a little while about 1 year later they returned to their sleepy little town after having learned of its destruction! They find the child, now completely corrupted by the evil within her. One of their child hood friends is a minion of the new lich. They battle the lich-child and lose. The lich-child leaves them for dead and the real plot is off and running. The PCs are only about 3rd level at this time so they have no idea what is going on and no idea what to do. You are not saving the world but you are starting a wicked plot. As far as how to create plots, I suggest you write the ending first. How do you want to end the story? That is what it is, a story. Steal from literary works already in print. Convert villains from Disney stories (fun) or old westerns (better). I suggest writing an outline of the plot for reference. An outline will help you stay on course. I recommend creating a plot cross referenced with the pc level outline so you know at what level each NPC is expected to interact with the PCs. If the PCs don't do what is expected, have preplanned encounters, still based on the main plot, to stall them until you can get back on track. Then create a nasty twist and smack them with it! When was the last time you were reading a book and the plot took a wild twist that made you smile? Think of that plot twist and the reactions from your players when you drop it on them. I have been DMing since 1982 and I can't remember the number of plots I have created and my players have torn through. IMO, the DMs job, first and foremost, is to tell a story. I have played in campaigns where the DM was great with battle and the rules but horrible with story telling. I would rather have the opposite. Any fool can learn the rules. Give me a story teller who has decent grasp of the rules and I will stay at that table and game every weekend. Bottom line, steal until you can't steal any more! Just don't make it obvious!:D
Anathema 06-21-07, 06:08 PM	I usually try to think of the end of a storyline first, as Dunsel suggests. Then I think of a few key climatic moments and string them to the end, and then fill the points in between. Sometimes I'll try and think up plot points and plot hooks that don't immediately reveal themselves as possible connections, and connect them later on as an epiphany strikes. Just try to make the paths to your high points as fluid as possible, so it's not wasted when your players off a guy you planned for them to save.