Campaign Setup Advice Please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Campaign Setup Advice Please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rhomphaia
02-18-06, 08:40 AM I am currently planning a gestalt campaign that is more story/achivement oriented than oriented toward actual XP gain through normal means. Basically, when characters get X story arc/adventure done, they gain a level. I am planning this game for levels 1-20, and shooting for a grand total of 25-30 total adventures/game sessions.

There are various reasons for this, but the main one is that I want to try a bit of a different set-up for a campaign. I want to make the characters have actual in-game plot and personal goals rather than ones driven by experience points.

Anyway, I do have one concern about this. I think I have solved it but I am open to different ideas and suggestions. Basically it comes in the form of XP for casters to use certain spells and in item creation. I wish to follow the normal rules for such (including not being able to drop a level due to XP spending). This is my problem. How do I do this and still give the PCs the resources they need for item creation and the casting of certain spells?

The answer I came up with is fairly simple. At each level of experience, the character will gain an amount of 'excess xp' equal to 5% of the total xp needed to achieve that level. The only exception is level one, where a character starts with 10 xp. These experience points are only useful for spellcasting and item creation, no other purpose.

For example, upon raching 3rd level, a cleric chooses the Brew Potion feat. Nothing else has taken up the cleric's resources, so he has a total of 60 xp waiting for him in addition to the 150 he gained upon reaching level 3.

Here is a table below so you can see at a glance how much xp is gained for this purpose at each level. The number in parenthises after each entry is the total gained before expenditure.

Level 01: 10 (10).
Level 02: 50 (60).
Level 03: 150 (210).
Level 04: 300 (510).
Level 05: 500 (1,010).
Level 06: 750 (1,760).
Level 07: 1,050 (2,810).
Level 08: 1,400 (4,210).
Level 09: 1,800 (6,010).
Level 10: 2,250 (8,260).
Level 11: 2,750 (11,010).
Level 12: 3,300 (14,310).
Level 13: 3,900 (18,210).
Level 14: 4,550 (22,760).
Level 15: 5,250 (28,010).
Level 16: 6,000 (34,010).
Level 17: 6,800 (40,810).
Level 18: 7,650 (48,460).
Level 19: 8,550 (57,010).
Level 20: 9,500 (66,510).

What I hope to accomplish with this is to have a system that still allows for item creation and casting of spells like Wish along with my non-xp dependant level gain system that I created for this game. Now this in itself leads to the problem of xp penalties not hurting so much, but I had hoped to mitigate that somewhat by assigning a fixed rate of gain for the xp available.

That way, wizards won't go around creating items left and right and they won't go around casting Wish at everything they see. For example, if they had done nothing else to spend xp in their careers (unlikely) then a wizard under this system can only cast Wish 13 times between levels 17 and 20. That isn't a lot considering. Even less so when you take into account other spells that cost xp and item creation. The xp loss is going to sting just as much as before. I would appreciate any ideas or possible alternatives to this mechanic.

The one thing I do need advice on is the BBEG...what level should I make him for a final confrontation with a group of four level 20 characters? Yes I know he is going to be gestalt as well, so do not mention that. I need to know what a good level is. I was considering 25 for a good, tough fight. Maybe higher, especially since this group has a history of beating up really tough enounters.
Gesh
02-18-06, 09:26 AM If you have the Epic Level Handbook that's fine but you might consider making the BBEG a group rather than a solo, or have him have a set of challenging guards and suchlike in the room.
DracoPhoenix
02-18-06, 09:34 AM A nice idea, I hope it goes well for you!
Also consider the below as starting points for alternate ideas / build upon your method:

1) It might be worth looking at the Artificer from the Eberron Campaign (and giving them that as a mandatory gestalt class)
2) They can pay x2 xp cost in gold in place of xp
3) they each have a magic item(s - one for each slot) that can hold X000 x CL gp of enchantment - player decides enchantment at level up (though you may want to think on if they can remove existing enchantments or if you can only add (including adding to an existing powers str))
4) They can take creation feats / x bonus skill points in a craft skill at each level (level reqs. required on feats) as bonus feats, irregardless of class (though artificer emulation would probably apply for all classes to be fair to casters & non casters)

one problem could be striking a balance between crafting & (eg) crafting a command word item of true striking.

Have you spoken to the players on if they want to do this? They might like the idea of gestalt chars, but not if it means its one and only one class. Or they may in general like the idea & have some ideas you haven't thought of / considered.

Hope this helps.

Edit:
As it's your campaign, how xp is rewarded is up to you - as an incentive, you could reward roleplay with more xp than simplying dungeon crawling. Someone who picks a skill for their character's development (as opposed to the skills utility) might get slightly more xp when he uses it. (over the course of the campaign, a little will mount up)
For a given situation, set the objective, but not the method.
A good example is in a friends game, he had to save the villagers from giants, he mind read a giant, scryed, teleported in and used dimension door to evacuate the villagers.
What the dmg expected him to do was fight his way through the giants.
Rhomphaia
02-18-06, 10:54 AM A nice idea, I hope it goes well for you!
Also consider the below as starting points for alternate ideas / build upon your method:

1) It might be worth looking at the Artificer from the Eberron Campaign (and giving them that as a mandatory gestalt class)
2) They can pay x2 xp cost in gold in place of xp
3) they each have a magic item(s - one for each slot) that can hold X000 x CL gp of enchantment - player decides enchantment at level up (though you may want to think on if they can remove existing enchantments or if you can only add (including adding to an existing powers str))
4) They can take creation feats / x bonus skill points in a craft skill at each level (level reqs. required on feats) as bonus feats, irregardless of class (though artificer emulation would probably apply for all classes to be fair to casters & non casters)

one problem could be striking a balance between crafting & (eg) crafting a command word item of true striking.

Have you spoken to the players on if they want to do this? They might like the idea of gestalt chars, but not if it means its one and only one class. Or they may in general like the idea & have some ideas you haven't thought of / considered.

Hope this helps.

Edit:
As it's your campaign, how xp is rewarded is up to you - as an incentive, you could reward roleplay with more xp than simplying dungeon crawling. Someone who picks a skill for their character's development (as opposed to the skills utility) might get slightly more xp when he uses it. (over the course of the campaign, a little will mount up)
For a given situation, set the objective, but not the method.
A good example is in a friends game, he had to save the villagers from giants, he mind read a giant, scryed, teleported in and used dimension door to evacuate the villagers.
What the dmg expected him to do was fight his way through the giants.
Well, I do not have access to the Eberron book, but that does seem like a good idea. Still I would like to know the full rules on artificers beforehand.

As for mandatory classes and the achievment based leveling, I already have monk as a required class and everyone is fine with the mandatory class and the way levels are gained.

The way you describe the objective and situation is pretty much what I had in mind. Set up the objective, but the way the players attain the goal is up to them. There will be a few points where they will be required to figure out the goal or come up with a goal themselves or choose from a number of different ones.

As for the BBEG, I do not want to give anything away, but let's just say that I am going to be playing this character very intelligently (the BBEG is very smart) and the final encounter is something of an elaborate trap...I am looking for an overall EL of about 25 for the final battle. I want it to be tough, but not impossible.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rhomphaia 02-18-06, 08:40 AM	I am currently planning a gestalt campaign that is more story/achivement oriented than oriented toward actual XP gain through normal means. Basically, when characters get X story arc/adventure done, they gain a level. I am planning this game for levels 1-20, and shooting for a grand total of 25-30 total adventures/game sessions. There are various reasons for this, but the main one is that I want to try a bit of a different set-up for a campaign. I want to make the characters have actual in-game plot and personal goals rather than ones driven by experience points. Anyway, I do have one concern about this. I think I have solved it but I am open to different ideas and suggestions. Basically it comes in the form of XP for casters to use certain spells and in item creation. I wish to follow the normal rules for such (including not being able to drop a level due to XP spending). This is my problem. How do I do this and still give the PCs the resources they need for item creation and the casting of certain spells? The answer I came up with is fairly simple. At each level of experience, the character will gain an amount of 'excess xp' equal to 5% of the total xp needed to achieve that level. The only exception is level one, where a character starts with 10 xp. These experience points are only useful for spellcasting and item creation, no other purpose. For example, upon raching 3rd level, a cleric chooses the Brew Potion feat. Nothing else has taken up the cleric's resources, so he has a total of 60 xp waiting for him in addition to the 150 he gained upon reaching level 3. Here is a table below so you can see at a glance how much xp is gained for this purpose at each level. The number in parenthises after each entry is the total gained before expenditure. Level 01: 10 (10). Level 02: 50 (60). Level 03: 150 (210). Level 04: 300 (510). Level 05: 500 (1,010). Level 06: 750 (1,760). Level 07: 1,050 (2,810). Level 08: 1,400 (4,210). Level 09: 1,800 (6,010). Level 10: 2,250 (8,260). Level 11: 2,750 (11,010). Level 12: 3,300 (14,310). Level 13: 3,900 (18,210). Level 14: 4,550 (22,760). Level 15: 5,250 (28,010). Level 16: 6,000 (34,010). Level 17: 6,800 (40,810). Level 18: 7,650 (48,460). Level 19: 8,550 (57,010). Level 20: 9,500 (66,510). What I hope to accomplish with this is to have a system that still allows for item creation and casting of spells like Wish along with my non-xp dependant level gain system that I created for this game. Now this in itself leads to the problem of xp penalties not hurting so much, but I had hoped to mitigate that somewhat by assigning a fixed rate of gain for the xp available. That way, wizards won't go around creating items left and right and they won't go around casting Wish at everything they see. For example, if they had done nothing else to spend xp in their careers (unlikely) then a wizard under this system can only cast Wish 13 times between levels 17 and 20. That isn't a lot considering. Even less so when you take into account other spells that cost xp and item creation. The xp loss is going to sting just as much as before. I would appreciate any ideas or possible alternatives to this mechanic. The one thing I do need advice on is the BBEG...what level should I make him for a final confrontation with a group of four level 20 characters? Yes I know he is going to be gestalt as well, so do not mention that. I need to know what a good level is. I was considering 25 for a good, tough fight. Maybe higher, especially since this group has a history of beating up really tough enounters.
Gesh 02-18-06, 09:26 AM	If you have the Epic Level Handbook that's fine but you might consider making the BBEG a group rather than a solo, or have him have a set of challenging guards and suchlike in the room.
DracoPhoenix 02-18-06, 09:34 AM	A nice idea, I hope it goes well for you! Also consider the below as starting points for alternate ideas / build upon your method: 1) It might be worth looking at the Artificer from the Eberron Campaign (and giving them that as a mandatory gestalt class) 2) They can pay x2 xp cost in gold in place of xp 3) they each have a magic item(s - one for each slot) that can hold X000 x CL gp of enchantment - player decides enchantment at level up (though you may want to think on if they can remove existing enchantments or if you can only add (including adding to an existing powers str)) 4) They can take creation feats / x bonus skill points in a craft skill at each level (level reqs. required on feats) as bonus feats, irregardless of class (though artificer emulation would probably apply for all classes to be fair to casters & non casters) one problem could be striking a balance between crafting & (eg) crafting a command word item of true striking. Have you spoken to the players on if they want to do this? They might like the idea of gestalt chars, but not if it means its one and only one class. Or they may in general like the idea & have some ideas you haven't thought of / considered. Hope this helps. Edit: As it's your campaign, how xp is rewarded is up to you - as an incentive, you could reward roleplay with more xp than simplying dungeon crawling. Someone who picks a skill for their character's development (as opposed to the skills utility) might get slightly more xp when he uses it. (over the course of the campaign, a little will mount up) For a given situation, set the objective, but not the method. A good example is in a friends game, he had to save the villagers from giants, he mind read a giant, scryed, teleported in and used dimension door to evacuate the villagers. What the dmg expected him to do was fight his way through the giants.
Rhomphaia 02-18-06, 10:54 AM	A nice idea, I hope it goes well for you! Also consider the below as starting points for alternate ideas / build upon your method: 1) It might be worth looking at the Artificer from the Eberron Campaign (and giving them that as a mandatory gestalt class) 2) They can pay x2 xp cost in gold in place of xp 3) they each have a magic item(s - one for each slot) that can hold X000 x CL gp of enchantment - player decides enchantment at level up (though you may want to think on if they can remove existing enchantments or if you can only add (including adding to an existing powers str)) 4) They can take creation feats / x bonus skill points in a craft skill at each level (level reqs. required on feats) as bonus feats, irregardless of class (though artificer emulation would probably apply for all classes to be fair to casters & non casters) one problem could be striking a balance between crafting & (eg) crafting a command word item of true striking. Have you spoken to the players on if they want to do this? They might like the idea of gestalt chars, but not if it means its one and only one class. Or they may in general like the idea & have some ideas you haven't thought of / considered. Hope this helps. Edit: As it's your campaign, how xp is rewarded is up to you - as an incentive, you could reward roleplay with more xp than simplying dungeon crawling. Someone who picks a skill for their character's development (as opposed to the skills utility) might get slightly more xp when he uses it. (over the course of the campaign, a little will mount up) For a given situation, set the objective, but not the method. A good example is in a friends game, he had to save the villagers from giants, he mind read a giant, scryed, teleported in and used dimension door to evacuate the villagers. What the dmg expected him to do was fight his way through the giants. Well, I do not have access to the Eberron book, but that does seem like a good idea. Still I would like to know the full rules on artificers beforehand. As for mandatory classes and the achievment based leveling, I already have monk as a required class and everyone is fine with the mandatory class and the way levels are gained. The way you describe the objective and situation is pretty much what I had in mind. Set up the objective, but the way the players attain the goal is up to them. There will be a few points where they will be required to figure out the goal or come up with a goal themselves or choose from a number of different ones. As for the BBEG, I do not want to give anything away, but let's just say that I am going to be playing this character very intelligently (the BBEG is very smart) and the final encounter is something of an elaborate trap...I am looking for an overall EL of about 25 for the final battle. I want it to be tough, but not impossible.