Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phrennzy 07-30-07, 03:39 PM	I plan on starting a homebrew campaign. It will eventually become the Red Hand of Doom. The players will all be from Drellin's Ferry, Brindol, or any town in between. I want them to have a reason to act against the Horde. I also want the PCs to start off as captives of orcs searching for a powerful weapon. The idea being that they will escape, invade and kill the orcs, and find the item for themselves. (If they don't find the item - I'm thinking a magic sword - it's not plot specific, so I can put it elsewhere). Anyways, my question is this: What is more fun - starting the game with the PCs already captured, or starting the game with the PCs travelling in pairs aboard seperate caravans, and getting hit by the orc slave gathering party? The plan would be a sleep spell from a half-orc wizard - I figure that saves would be more than likely blown if he is level 2 or 3. That, and a hail of poisoned arrows. The upshot is that the fight doesn't seem quite so railroading (if they are not captured, they can always track the orcs back for revenge, or move on to something else). The down side is that we'd be starting the campaign with an almost guaranteed "TPK" (even though they aren't dead, it might still be seen as a failure, and that might not be the way to start a campaign). Starting the campaign with a short description of what happened ("You were hit with a sleep spell, and awake in a filthy cell somewhere underground"), and the PCs just captured, is more railroad, but avoids the 'embarrassment' of failure. I am looking for opinions on this. Thanks
illyrus 07-30-07, 03:48 PM	I'd say start them off captured. Give them the basics (orcish horde) and give them the option to come up with the particulars within reason. Maybe the paladin gave up to save some child from being killed. Maybe the barbarian PC killed 5 of the orcs and was winning the fight until a comrade stabbed him in the back etc. It's sort of a compromise, irregardless they start off captured, but they can say how it happened and play it up as much as they like.
DyloniusFunk 07-30-07, 03:52 PM	For myself i would rather start out being captured. It's an interesting, exciting way to start off a game, and it gives me a reason why my PC is working with the other PCs. A much better way than say ing " Ok you're traveling down the road then the million orcs capture you and you can't do dren about it because my plot requires you to be captured". Ok maybe that's a little extreme but some players can small a railroad and i think it would be better off for everyone just top say " OK you wake up in a cell with an Orc peering at you iron bars. What do you do?"
GoriceXII 07-30-07, 03:55 PM	I agree with the other two posters. It's one thing in my game where the pcs have thus far only come close to capture once and foiled their captors and have had a number of victories and so on--to start out GETTING captured would be very discouraging I can say from personal experience. Starting off as captives--there are a number of good adventure and fantasy stories that begin that way :)
JMKoontz 07-30-07, 03:57 PM	definately start with them already captured. Honestly, even if it is not, the fight feels more railroaded. Starting them out as captives (especially if part of their backstory is for them to create the particulars of their capture) is simply the state of the world at the start of the campaign. It's really no worse than saying, you're all in a tavern in XYZville, except that they're garaunteed some action almost straight away. Starting them as free (wo)men and almost forcing the capture during the first encounter feels staged. This is especially true if your intent is for them to escape shortly thereafter. The other upside of starting them out as captives is that they could have been there for varying degrees of time. Spend some time pre-session explaining the work that they've done for the orcs, the living conditions, etc etc. When they finally get up the nerve to break free (possibly by rallying other commoner/adventurer prisoners as well) it feels like they've accomplished something.
ccerose 07-30-07, 04:05 PM	At level 1, it's not that difficult to capture a group of PCs. Sleep should be efficient. Web is another possibility. Just make sure things conclude quickly. With each round that passes, it feels more and more like railroading. Once they are captured, make sure they are on the move again and gain access to their gear fairly quickly. That should keep the players' attitudes from turning sour.
Nom 07-30-07, 06:03 PM	If your group is more story driven, they might not mind a "being captured" scene. But it might take a little work to get continuity right. Being captured by GrobGrob the mighty (Clr15) and his Thousand Orcs and then waking to find themselves in the lair of Derf the Lesser (War2) and his 5 bodyguards doesn't sit right. It's also worth thinking about how they get out. If they can bust out of prison and slay everyone without some accompanying cataclysmic event then they probably shouldn't have been captured in the first place.
BraulioB 07-30-07, 06:35 PM	Also, if this is their first meeting/adventure, maybe they don't know about the other PCs right away. Have them work out a plan as they meet each other. Sorta like: Hey, me and that guy saw the orc with the keys drunk again. Could you help us break these bonds. Or: One of the other prisoners is more beat up than the others, the orcs really hate him (ranger or paladin prisoner) B
EchoXero 07-30-07, 08:27 PM	As a player, I would prefer to be captured before the adventure begins. Waking up in a cell with a group of other people helps provide instant motivation to work with the group to escape. It beats the cliche tavern start to adventures that you see far too often. It also avoids the long ramp up to the action, instead providing instant tension and high stakes at the very beginning. When it comes to the characters, they will have a common background event that will help tie them to each other. If they can survive to escape captivity, it will help build trust among the characters and solidify their potential friendships. They will have more motivation to work together, i.e. "ever since we worked to escape from that orc prison, we have been running around together ever since. I trust them with my life, because I just might be dead already without them."
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-30-07, 10:06 PM	Hey, Phrennzy! I'm glad to give you my opinion. I advocate "captured" instead of "capture". One of my all-time favorite book series (the Nightrunner books by Llynn Flewelling (Look them up, you might like them; really good coming out/self discovery subplot, especially in the first book)) starts out with the protagonist stuck in a prison cell. It's best not to tell everyone that they are going to be captured (I think). Have them make their characters as normal, including equipping them with gear. Then, start off the first session with something along the lines of: "You have been traveling with a trade caravan bound for Dennovar for the past 2 days. Suddenly, you hear brutal war cries as humanoid shapes bound out of the surrounding brush. Before you can react, you feel an unnatural exhaustion wash over you, and you slip into unconsciousness. When you awake, you find that you have been stripped of your possessions, and are bound by the wrists." Yeah, it's railroading. But it's the first session! All first sessions have to have a little railroading in order to work. The goal is to make the escape so exciting that the players quickly get over the mild displeasure of being auto-captured. Make a means of escape readily apparent (mention the clumsy knot-work to a PC with Escape Artist, or the fraying ropes to a high-strength PC). Have the first guards they encounter be easily overcome (for example, new goblin recruits with only 1 or 2 hp, easily subdued by unarmed attacks), so that they can get rudimentary equipment (a couple of daggers, or a mis-sized weapon; if there's a spellcaster whose component pouch/divine focus has been stolen, have the crappy guards examining it, wondering what the hell it is). Benefits of "captured" vs. "capture": PCs aren't potentially split into 2 groups (prisoners and rescuers), and are therefore easier to DM (IMO) "Railroading" assures that your plot goes as planned, allowing you to spend time making it as detailed and exciting as possible instead of having to plan for contingencies that may not even happen. Provides a ready made reason for the PCs to band together (none of this "my character wouldn't risk his life to rescue those strangers" crap) Prevents the PCs from wasting resources on a fight (what if the party sorcerer cast all his spells trying to resist capture, but was captured anyway? During the escape, he'd feel pretty useless.)
someonelse812 07-30-07, 10:44 PM	if thats the only railroading you do then I think its fine. I actually started a campaign like that once, it was fun.
danielinthewolvesden 07-31-07, 01:07 AM	I also want the PCs to start off as captives of orcs searching for a powerful weapon. The idea being that they will escape, invade and kill the orcs, and find the item for themselves. (If they don't find the item - I'm thinking a magic sword - it's not plot specific, so I can put it elsewhere). Anyways, my question is this: What is more fun - starting the game with the PCs already captured, or starting the game with the PCs travelling in pairs aboard seperate caravans, and getting hit by the orc slave gathering party? The whole "PC's get captured and end up as captive that have to escape" is a scenario that often blows up in a DM's face. Players hate this. HATE. Then again, they might all fight to the death, get away or even win. If they can not win, or get away, or even die, it is cheesy railroading. That being said, it is a completely legit way to start a campaign, having them already captured. They also will not have to waste time equipting their PCs'. If it is the campaign opener, it is not railroading. Jagyr Ebonwood is right.
Thinker89 07-31-07, 01:39 AM	Captured.
Thanuir 07-31-07, 04:38 AM	I'd say start them off captured. Give them the basics (orcish horde) and give them the option to come up with the particulars within reason. Maybe the paladin gave up to save some child from being killed. Maybe the barbarian PC killed 5 of the orcs and was winning the fight until a comrade stabbed him in the back etc. It's sort of a compromise, irregardless they start off captured, but they can say how it happened and play it up as much as they like.This is my suggestion, also. Toying with player expectations is a bad habit. Be honest and let them have fun with the game, too.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-31-07, 01:05 PM	Jagyr Ebonwood is right. What? Danielinthewolvesden agrees with me?! *runs off to sell ice skates in Hell* ;)
Teh_Darkness 07-31-07, 01:20 PM	I think captured would be best. Nobody likes being captured but escaping capture is a fun adventure. It also expediates equipment purchasing too as you can just give them equipment as the game goes.
danielinthewolvesden 07-31-07, 01:26 PM	What? Danielinthewolvesden agrees with me?! *runs off to sell ice skates in Hell* ;) Make sure I get my cut.:D
Heros_Backpack 07-31-07, 07:54 PM	I'd say captured. You might want to consider swapping the sleep attack in your plan for a colour spray though, otherwise any elf or half-elf characters would simply be able to ignore your wizard's attacks.
Arlin 07-31-07, 09:01 PM	When I want the PCs to get captured, because that's the way the story is going, I try to give them the motivation to get captured. They want to get captured. They actually enjoy it when their "plan" works. And I enjoy it even more, because it was actually my plan. Somebody already said that the art of DMing is to get the players to think that what you want them to do is their idea. In order to do that you must know what motivates each one of them.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-31-07, 09:10 PM	Another vote for starting off captured. It sounds like they're almost certainly starting off captured whether or not they know it anyway. As a player I'd much rather start the game in a bad circumstance than start the game with a fight that has a scripted outcome (or ever participate in a situation where my actions and decisions ultimately don't matter to the results). Most other players I know feel the same.
Kaligrad 07-31-07, 09:41 PM	A good compromise is to explain what the characters were doing before they were captured, like Jagyr's example. The players don't have control over their characters yet, so they don't feel railroaded, and you get the pre-start setup you seem to be angling for.
wizarddog 07-31-07, 10:26 PM	It's better for many reasons why the players should be captured. It will help them make decisions on their character creation. #1 all that time they spent buying their equipment would be for nothing. What if Bobo the Fighter bought a great sword and took weapon focus: great sword and never found a great sword again? #2 A spell caster may take the Spell mastery feat so he can cast at least a few spells without his/her spell book. Maybe they may want to play a sorcerer instead. #3 A druid's animal companion. Nuff said. Start the game that they ahve been captured-but give them a good back story on how they it was not so easy. (i.e. they kicked some butt!) ;)
Phrennzy 08-01-07, 05:05 PM	Thanks. Looks like Captured it is. I think they'd have been grabbed from a couple of different areas over a day or two. So they all end up together (along with other slaves) at roughly the same time. The only problem I have is with anyone playing a wizard. The spellbook thing is a big problem to work around. Forcing them to take spell mastery sucks. I was thinking of just giving them spell mastery. Its not a great feat, and it will only be useful in situations like this. Which is rare. As for buying a greatsword and specializing in that weapon (or a halbard or spiked chain or urgosh, etc) you can bet on the PCs finding one in the prison - either their original weapon, or one of the guards uses that type. The idea is to have fun and be different, not screw em. I had a barbarian who lost his greatsword to a rust monster (stupid non-metagaming me). Trying to make due with a falchion sucked.
ccerose 08-01-07, 05:11 PM	The only problem I have is with anyone playing a wizard. The spellbook thing is a big problem to work around. Forcing them to take spell mastery sucks. I was thinking of just giving them spell mastery. Its not a great feat, and it will only be useful in situations like this. Which is rare. It would definitely help if there's anyway you could come up with a way for them to stumble across some scrolls. That way he wouldn't need to find his spell book and his spell components.
The man they call Boxhead 08-01-07, 05:17 PM	Let Wiuzards start with a full complement of memorized spells and have their spellbook reasonably handy (or a replacement, I suppose, but half the character will be the spellbook choices). If the rest of the party have to find weapons (even if just their own eventually), and use imrovised stuff along the way, the wizard actually starts out a step up by having some spells. By the time the party is re-equipped, the Wizard will have his spellbook (most likely).
Jagyr Ebonwood 08-01-07, 05:59 PM	The only problem I have is with anyone playing a wizard. The spellbook thing is a big problem to work around. Forcing them to take spell mastery sucks. I was thinking of just giving them spell mastery. Its not a great feat, and it will only be useful in situations like this. Which is rare. Like I said before, unless there is a reason for the orcs to take the spellbook, let the orcs guarding the prisoners have it. Have them just flipping pages and scratching their heads. Maybe they get bored use a blank page to play tic-tac-toe on (with real toes!).
Phrennzy 08-01-07, 06:14 PM	Thankfully we dont even bother with material components.
danielinthewolvesden 08-01-07, 07:13 PM	The only problem I have is with anyone playing a wizard. The spellbook thing is a big problem to work around. . Not so much. Suggest strongly they play a Sorc or a Warmage or a Warlock or any other arcanist class that does not need one.
Relic 08-01-07, 07:58 PM	The spellbook thing is a big problem to work around. Forcing them to take spell mastery sucks. I was thinking of just giving them spell mastery. Its not a great feat, and it will only be useful in situations like this. Which is rare. I would probably just have a storage place the orcs put some of their gear. Since all their spellcasters are either sorcerers, clerics, or shamans they might not recognize just what a spellbook it but rather just a book with some undecipherable writing, ink smudges, and a funky smell. Or... have one of the orc guards be a low-level wizard that confiscates the spellbook. Thus, when the PCs escape they have the opportunity to regain their spellbook as well as a couple of spells from the orc wizard. The same could happen to any PC that has an exotic weapon. Either the orcs find the weapon to cumbersome to wield and put it in some forgotten storage area or an orc warrior takes an interest in the weapon and claims it. During the escape, the PC has an opportunity to reclaim the exotic weapon.
LoneStranger 08-01-07, 08:00 PM	Already captured works, plus they know what's going to happen at start so they can be ready for that part of the adventure. I'd prefer that to being captured in the first adventure.
CCS 08-02-07, 12:11 AM	I'll add my vote for already captured. I'd also have any spellbooks be easy enough to recover. Not risk free, but also not impossible. Indeed, this may very well be incentive enough to go further INto the orc lair, even if under equiped. "Wait guys! They have my spellbook! We can't just leave it!" Afterall, a swords easy enough to replace. As is armour etc. Even holy symbols. But that spellbook? That represents something of considerable value....
Phrennzy 08-02-07, 11:28 AM	Yeah I figure the orcs will have placed most of the party's gear in a certain area, while any masterwork weapons or sheilds will be used by the orcs. The spellbook will be locked up as valuable. The orcs are so stupid as to not know what a spellbook is - or, at least, their boss wouldn't be. Spell Mastery is such a lame feat that I will most likely give it to anyone who wants to play a mage. I don't like the idea of encouraging them to play a sorcerer simply based on how the game will start. Perhaps one of the other prisoners will be the lackey of a wizard, long dead, who was mistreated and forced to be tattoo'd with a spell or two on his back. Something oddball - like Unseen Servant, as an insult to the man - but in this case could be actually useful.
Thanuir 08-03-07, 09:11 AM	The only problem I have is with anyone playing a wizard. The spellbook thing is a big problem to work around. Forcing them to take spell mastery sucks. I was thinking of just giving them spell mastery. Its not a great feat, and it will only be useful in situations like this. Which is rare. As for buying a greatsword and specializing in that weapon (or a halbard or spiked chain or urgosh, etc) you can bet on the PCs finding one in the prison - either their original weapon, or one of the guards uses that type. The idea is to have fun and be different, not screw em.Solution to the spellbook problem is the same as to the specific weapon problem. Let the player start with a full allotment of spells and then create a suitable-level spellbook with all those and some extra. Let the player know this, too.
Optimized_Commoner 08-03-07, 09:25 AM	Like everyone else, I say captured. On a related note it's usually trust issues which make a player metagame. You'll find that your players will make less "I'm an orphan with no friends or family" characters and do less "death before surrender or capture" if you go gently on family and friends and with capture scenarios. If they trust you as a DM, they'll get more involved in their characters and try to play them realistically without worrying about their attachment to their characters being abused in some sort of sadistic power play.
Onikani 08-03-07, 12:53 PM	Already captured. Its a big time saver, and lots of campaigns start off this way.
Reyemile 08-03-07, 02:31 PM	I'd say start them off captured. Give them the basics (orcish horde) and give them the option to come up with the particulars within reason. Maybe the paladin gave up to save some child from being killed. Maybe the barbarian PC killed 5 of the orcs and was winning the fight until a comrade stabbed him in the back etc. It's sort of a compromise, irregardless they start off captured, but they can say how it happened and play it up as much as they like.I really like this one. Seriously, start the campaign with "Okay, each of you, tell me how and why you got captured by orcs" is a great way to kick things off. It gives players a feeling of control, and it gets them all into character right off the bat.
Phrennzy 08-03-07, 03:36 PM	I really like this one. Seriously, start the campaign with "Okay, each of you, tell me how and why you got captured by orcs" is a great way to kick things off. It gives players a feeling of control, and it gets them all into character right off the bat. That is a really good idea. (I know my guys will ask for the XP for the orcs they "killed", too. LOL) "I killed 10,000 orcs, but that last one was just too much. Did I level?"
ajmuszkiewicz 08-03-07, 04:54 PM	I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet on this thread, but can't you sort of do both? What if you start with the PCs being captured, do a little bit with them in chains, etc., then jump backward in time and play out the encounter where they got captured? That way, they know what's going to happen (imminent capture) without the looming onus of failure, you have control over how it goes down (not really railroading since they get to see it happen around them), and they may even have the chance to benefit from it happening (the experience that the players undoubtedly will want for accomplishing something in the encounter, not to mention the added in-game benefit of knowing at least a little bit about their captors). This approach may require a little bit more preparation on your part, but should strike the right mix between plot device and player involvement when done properly. Using a unique storytelling device like this can also inspire confidence in your DMing ability.
rkr1970 08-03-07, 05:39 PM	Since you are just starting a campaign, a creative, PC-friendly bit of railroading can actually feel like a prologue. Just think outside the box. You capture them, allowing them to fight and risk death. Keep a list of the hp of each character handy. If anyone goes down fighting, fudge things to keep them at -1 or -2 hp. Then, you have one of the PCs who "died" awaken atop a heap of bodies (the rogue if possible). "They must have mistakenly thought you were dead and threw you into the 'food pantry'. You awaken with a single hit point and any gear that wasn't in your backpack." This character's mission now is to find and free any other survivors. (Note: To make sure someone makes it to the 'pantry', save a likely candidate for last, especially if he's playing caravan guard or the like. Simply have this last PC get "killed" in the initial assault on his caravan, or something) As he looks around, he will find noncombatant NPC captives, supplies, and his fellow party members. Make sure the party finds some intelligence on the orc horde. Maybe a map of the PC's homeland with big red arrows showing potential assault paths of various orc generals, some supply orders that hint at the size of the approaching force, whatever. Some brief scouting will tell the party that they are being held in a poorly defended supply post as cattle. With a little work should be able to defeat the guards and free the survivors. After that, they must escort the assorted farmers and merchants back to safety. Then they can look to going on the offensive. If you plan ahead, you can get a good bit of background from each player and use that to fuel the fires. Player A writes about his beloved sister in his background. You mention them traveling together before the PCs are captured. After the escape, Player B recalls seeing a woman that fits her description being taken away from the camp along with several other pretty girls. He overheard something about "concubines". Quite possibly, she faces a fate worse than death if Player A cannot rescue her in time. Player B had an ancestral sword with him before he was captured. His family' honor is tied to that blade. He must strive to get it back. Player C is a bloody-minded bastard who feels like avenging this horrible insult with as much orc blood as possible. Player D.... Well, you get the idea. This way, you never take away from the players the ability to choose. Stand and fight or surrender? It immediately grounds them in your campaign, and provides a bit of quick action before they expect it. If handled correctly, they shouldn't realize that you had already pre-planned their capture, escape, and subsequent decision to stop the horde. And they can gain some XP and a few neat toys along the way. Scrolls, potions, blessed bandages, a spell book or two, maybe a wand; whatever you think is appropriate. If you're a strong enough DM, it will beat the heck out of starting a campaign with "You all wake up bound and gagged in an orc camp."
ToastedAmphibian 08-03-07, 06:32 PM	Just out of curiosity, why are you all talking about sleep and prismatic spray? There is a much better, all purpose capture technique that is within reach of any orc grunt and much more inline with orc culture. Beat teh crap out of them, then hit em with the broadside of teh axe./....
DrMorganes 08-03-07, 07:19 PM	Thanks. Looks like Captured it is. I think they'd have been grabbed from a couple of different areas over a day or two. So they all end up together (along with other slaves) at roughly the same time. The only problem I have is with anyone playing a wizard. The spellbook thing is a big problem to work around. Forcing them to take spell mastery sucks. I was thinking of just giving them spell mastery. Its not a great feat, and it will only be useful in situations like this. Which is rare. As for buying a greatsword and specializing in that weapon (or a halbard or spiked chain or urgosh, etc) you can bet on the PCs finding one in the prison - either their original weapon, or one of the guards uses that type. The idea is to have fun and be different, not screw em. I had a barbarian who lost his greatsword to a rust monster (stupid non-metagaming me). Trying to make due with a falchion sucked. Casters always get the shaft when you run a capture scenario. The spellbook isn't the problem. Spells stay memorized until you cast them or you die; whatever spells the players specified as "my starting spells" are what they start with. It's the spell component pouch that's the killer. However, there are ways around this: You could rule that the orcs missed a few things in their haste to strip the PCs. Perhaps the rogue gets to keep the dagger in his boot (what self-respecting rogue doesn't have a boot knife?! c.f., Complete Scoundrel if you want "real" specifics!) and the wizard's pouch is intact, but everyone else needs to scrounge something. Get familiar with the material components necessary to cast the spells the PCs specified as their starting spells and provide enough to cast one or two to the PCs if they pay attention. Ferinstance, color spray needs a pinch each of dust or sand colored red, yellow, and blue. Most folks would immediately think of sand colored with modern dyes, but hard-packed clay will suffice for red dust and a pulverized piece of sandstone makes yellow sand. Blue might require some work, but rocks come in all sorts of colors... Grease specifies pork rind or butter, but the idea here is that the magic needs something greasy to get going. I'd allow a creative player to make a Spellcraft Check to use the fat from the mutton bone the orcs threw at the PCs to shut 'em up. DC of say, 15 + Spell Level? The average PC wizard will have a minimum of +7 to that check at Level 1, and will make the check pretty easily. Many Level 0 and Level 1 spells don't even require material components, including Ray of Frost, Acid Orb, Shocking Grasp, Burning Hands, and Magic Missile. Many Level 0 and Level 1 cleric spells have V, S, and DF only for components. There are no specific rules that I'm aware of which specify that a holy symbol must be made of precious metals, studded with gems, and specially blessed. What matters is the cleric has something with which to focus his faith. I'd argue that being mostly nekkid and captured by orcs is definitely a time for faith and allow the cleric to put together a crude holy symbol with whatever materials he can scrounge with a Knowledge (Religion) check vs DC of 15. Again, most PC clerics will have at least +7 to this check. They get the added benefit of being able to pray for spells, assuming the rest of the party can distract the guards long enough. In short: getting stripped of your gear at Level 1 or 2 isn't really that much a major loss if the players are paying attention. Of course, the players would have to suggest creative solutions to their problem. But it's good to get 'em thinking creatively from the get-go, and an INT or WIS check might be appropriate to help give 'em a hint. As you said, there's nothing wrong with taking their stuff as long as you're prepared to give back either the same or better. You mentioned describing a half-orc wizard casting a Sleep spell. What PC wizard doesn't love capturing someone else's spellbook? Better, the PCs will know pretty much where to find their wizard's book! The enemy wizard wouldn't allow it to be destroyed - at least not until he's had the chance to look it over. The fighter gets away with a better shield than he started with, the rogue makes off with all the daggers he can carry (and maybe a buckler), and the cleric upgrades his leather armor to a chain shirt. Everybody wins!
DrMorganes 08-03-07, 07:24 PM	Just out of curiosity, why are you all talking about sleep and prismatic spray? There is a much better, all purpose capture technique that is within reach of any orc grunt and much more inline with orc culture. Beat teh crap out of them, then hit em with the broadside of teh axe./.... Because sleep accomplishes exactly the same thing without putting the PCs at some sort of disadvantage in the HP or fatigue department. That would be fine at higher levels, but remember these guys are just starting out!
rkr1970 08-03-07, 07:33 PM	You could rule that the orcs missed a few things in their haste to strip the PCs. Perhaps the rogue gets to keep the dagger in his boot (what self-respecting rogue doesn't have a boot knife?! c.f., Complete Scoundrel if you want "real" specifics!) and the wizard's pouch is intact, but everyone else needs to scrounge something. Maybe an NPC spellcaster who was also captured is out of spells but has a hidden pouch sewn into his robes. Many Level 0 and Level 1 cleric spells have V, S, and DF only for components. There are no specific rules that I'm aware of which specify that a holy symbol must be made of precious metals, studded with gems, and specially blessed. What matters is the cleric has something with which to focus his faith. I'd argue that being mostly nekkid and captured by orcs is definitely a time for faith and allow the cleric to put together a crude holy symbol with whatever materials he can scrounge with a Knowledge (Religion) check vs DC of 15. Again, most PC clerics will have at least +7 to this check. They get the added benefit of being able to pray for spells, assuming the rest of the party can distract the guards long enough. The single best thing presented in Complete Champion (IMHO) is a new orison... Summon Holy Symbol! It summons a pre-blessed, wooden holy symbol for 1 round/level and only requires verbal and somantic components. Guess what spell I would be praying for the morning after capture... As you said, there's nothing wrong with taking their stuff as long as you're prepared to give back either the same or better. You mentioned describing a half-orc wizard casting a Sleep spell. What PC wizard doesn't love capturing someone else's spellbook? Better, the PCs will know pretty much where to find their wizard's book! The enemy wizard wouldn't allow it to be destroyed - at least not until he's had the chance to look it over. The fighter gets away with a better shield than he started with, the rogue makes off with all the daggers he can carry (and maybe a buckler), and the cleric upgrades his leather armor to a chain shirt. Everybody wins! The only things you left out were the XP and the sweet rush of having fought off impossible odds and living to tell the tale! :cloud9:
DrMorganes 08-03-07, 08:43 PM	Maybe an NPC spellcaster who was also captured is out of spells but has a hidden pouch sewn into his robes. Complete Scoundrel has rules on hidden compartments, including such pockets. :ayyyy!: The single best thing presented in Complete Champion (IMHO) is a new orison... Summon Holy Symbol! It summons a pre-blessed, wooden holy symbol for 1 round/level and only requires verbal and somantic components. Guess what spell I would be praying for the morning after capture... Oh fer cryin' out loud... The only things you left out were the XP and the sweet rush of having fought off impossible odds and living to tell the tale! :cloud9: We need to leave something for the players, don'cha think? ;)
Enlightened1 08-03-07, 09:57 PM	If you're starting out with them captured, their gear doesn't have to be far away. If they were taken by a band of raiders rather than a full army, the raiders would likely take some/most of their stuff and leave the rest behind - even spellbooks and such would be recognizable as worth money, and would be hauled around (and maybe fought over) until reward can be collected (you could even have some orcs convinced that an item is magical, in which case they'll covet it even more; a chance for some Bluff checks, perhaps?). The first part of the adventure becomes getting out of bondage - they may be tied up (a la Merry and Pippin in LotR), or locked in a wagon with other prisoners. Their gear would be scattered among the orcs, with the best stuff probably secured in th "loot wagon" to give to the chief bad guy. Then some merry chases, as the PCs and orcs hunt each other. The PCs should hopefully be clever enough to outsmart orcs. Make it easy to get spellbook(s) back, maybe by having them carried around by one particular orc (who has to go on sentry duty sometime), or in the loot wagon, which is only guarded by enough orcs to make a quick fight for the PCs, followed by a chase. To make it even more amusing, have the PCs not wake up - or not have a good chance to escape - until they are at least a couple days' march away from where they were taken. This can put them into hostile territory (where a lot more orcs are prowling around!), and gives you a chance to feed them info on just what the orcs are up to - or whatever adventure hook you have in mind.