Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mcmurphy510 11-17-05, 11:55 AM	I wish I had been reading these boards years ago. It would have saved me so many headaches. Here is my situation: I have been running a Forgotten Realms game off and on for a very long time (probably 7 or more years). The game originally started as a 2nd edition game set in 1356 Dale Reckoning (2 years before the “Avatar Trilogy” series of books and the Time of Troubles – which served as the official demarcation between 1st and 2nd edition for the Forgotten Realms). When 3rd edition first came out I did not care for it, but my group loved it. I was the only DM there that was not running a 3rd edition game. So I developed a number of house rules designed to keep continuity with the flavor of 2nd edition FR and to address a number of concerns that I had with 3rd edition, and gave in to popular demand. Most of the players that had been in my game for more than a year or so (and had played other 2nd edition games) liked (or at least did not dislike) the house rules. The others (who had only played 3rd edition) who were fairly new to my game hated them. So not wanting to come across as a hard***, I dropped some of them – mostly involving issues I had with the 3e mechanics and kept the ones that helped to maintain the 2e FR flavor. So everyone converted over from 2e to 3e. Many of them were multi-class, and so lost levels, and others had 2e kits (which added FR flavor) but had to be dropped since no one qualified for the corresponding 3e prestige classes that replaced the kits (due to not being high enough level). Most of them were around 4th level at this time. About 6 months later, 3.5 was released. It addressed most of the issues I had with the 3.0 mechanics, so I had to convert over – again. My original 2e FR campaign was fairly high powered, even for FR standards. The PCs were magic heavy and had high stats (14 was probably average, with a 17 or 18 for each PC – id estimate a 40 point build equivalent on average). Part of the plot line was (and still is) that there were past civilizations that had uber-magic, which kept certain bad things in check. The civilizations are long dead, and the magic that is widely available has waned, but the bad things are on the rise again, so the PCs must find remnants of this uber-magic civilization to stop it. That’s why they are so magic heavy. The high stats and high magic and epic scale of things was fairly easy to deal with in 2nd edition, even up thru higher levels. (I had run a similar campaign once before to about 25 level with relatively few problems). In 3rd and 3.5 things are a bit more dicey. I managed to deal with things by lowering the CR of various encounters, and upping the number of combatants, and giving a few heroic levels to monsters, etc. That seemed to work very well thru about 10th level. But after that I find that balanced encounters based off of CR are out the window and are really now a matter of trial and error. Add to that some mistakes that I made early on. I knew that 3.0 / 3.5 required careful planning for PrCs, so one player wanted to go towards shadowdancer. I told them that would be fine. They planned their character to be optimized to take shadowdancer as early as possible (they now have two levels of it). Sometime between telling them it would be ok and now, I came to realize that PrCs should be used (more) for world building rather than character customization. I did not have the heart to tell them that they can’t have the PrC that they had planned on since they converted over. It’s not that I don’t want any PC shadowdancers; it’s that (after much reading on here and elsewhere) that it makes more sense to have had her seek out another shadowdancer and train for it. There are abilities that don’t make since for a simple rogue to suddenly acquire. Another thing that I messed up on is with magic items. Just before they converted over from 2e to 3e I had them go through an adventure where they gained a staff of the magi. A powerful magic item, but easily dealt with in 2e. Not so in 3 / 3.5. Now I have a necromancer who wont go anywhere with out it, and it really unbalances just about any encounter. There are other examples, but I won’t go into them presently. Again, the situation started out ok when I first converted them over, but as the gained levels I had to use more and more balancing tactics. I can probably do that for another level or two, but I know that by the time they reach 15th or so, the situation will likely be out of hand. The time in my campaign is presently 1358 Dale Reckoning, about 5 months before the Time of Troubles / GodsWar. I’m considering using this period as a catalyst to revitalize my campaign. My questions would be: If I were starting over, I’d have them on a 28 point buy, gaining a few permanent stat boosts (thru the aforementioned uber-magic) here and there as they progressed. Is there a way I can gracefully bring them back down to that, or balance the game (at higher levels) for the stats they currently have? How can I realistically limit the prestige classes / and the situations in which the PCs have access to them in mid stream? The same goes for feats? I’ve done a good job at reining in spells from non PH sources. What can I do about the high magical nature of my campaign and still keep it viable (and balanced)? This uber-magic needs to be meted out to them so that they can complete the campaign. How can I reign in the magic items that the PCs currently have (such the staff of the magi)? I don’t want to just take it from them. That seems like railroading to me. Does anyone have any ideas about how I might go about using the GodsWar (for those of you who do not speak FR, the GodsWar was a time when the gods were forced to walk the Realms. Magic did not work right – cleric spells were limited to 2nd level and arcane spells were subject to wild magic results that could kill) to set things right? I want to tone down the stats and institute some house rules for how and when to take PrCs and feats. And I want to retroactively correct my mistakes when converting from 2e to 3e (but do so in a way that is not meta-game). TPK is not an option, as I am not willing to start over and have too much time and effort invested in this campaign.
Bester 11-17-05, 02:59 PM	I think the primary issue is the original conversion out of 2e. I started with 3.5 so I'm not familiar with the changes, but it seems like jumping an entire edition would introduce many unexpected problems unless you're starting with brand new characters. Your players should be ashamed of themselves for railroading you into that. ;) That having been said, if you make it clear to the players that you may need to modify certain things (eg. their particular Staff of the Magi goes back to 2e stats instead of 3e, or gets nerfed in other ways) retroactively to keep things in balance, most will happily accept-- or at least understand your reasons. Explain to them plainly and honestly that you're having trouble rebalancing the campaign for the newer edition, that their characters are just too powerful for your world, and that you'd be open to suggestions from them on how to limit their power without reducing the fun they've been having. Some ideas for nerfing the Staff of the Magi: • Limit the number of times per day the unlimited powers can be used • Declare that it costs one charge each day to allow the use of the "unlimited" powers, used the first time such a power is activated • Drop the staff's spell resistance to a lower value • Reorganise the charge requirements for varuous spells • Reduce the maximum number of charges ;) ;) ;) ;)
Jesper 11-17-05, 03:30 PM	depending on there level you might consider sening a nightshade against them (the one that can destroy magic items)
avatar6v7 11-17-05, 03:51 PM	if youve got players whove been with you 7 years, then you must be a good DM, or at least a fun one. If you just go and tell them that under the 3.5 systym that they wanted, they are overpowered then they will moan and groan but i think the campaign will survive it since youve been playing for so long. Sometimes youve got to remember that your players are reasnable human beings, and if you ask them polity, as an adult, rather than treat them like unruly children then they will respond likewise and submit. See starting fresh as exciting; new charchters under a new systym, with new spells, feats and skills! About the shadowdancer, dont worry, theres no reason why they cant build a charchter whos aspiring to be a shadow dancer in the game world as well as the real one, when you feel that its metagaming, remember that though people wont talk in game mechanics terms when you talk to them, theres no reason they dont understand the powers and abilities in the game. Let him be a shadowdancer, but make it so it has strings attached-pehaps he called in some favours to get the class, and now a powerful organisation is after him for repaiment in services or if he refuses, his blood.
Jaxom 11-17-05, 04:03 PM	I was running a campaign for awhile where PRC's had to be gained by the character doing something extraordinary or even by some ritual or ceremony done by the church or an organization the character belonged to. I also had another campaign that was started in 2e and was converted over and it wasn't easy. If I were going to do it again today I would pick a level the PC's had to be and give them a point buy on their abilities, I like to beat the characters up a bit so I usually do 32 points, but I've also done 28. Then I would come up with a gold piece limit for characters to buy equipment from. The players should try to purchase the equipment that they currently have, I noticed that it doesn't change the story around too much when the character's aren't quite what they were before, what I was looking for was the balancing that you speak of to be able to use the CR's and EL's as a base point to generate your encounters. The magic items are definitely different and this is where your gold piece spending limit comes in since the character won't be able to have the staff youo mention if they can't afford it. When this occurs I would get the players to give you a list of magic items that they couldn't buy and see if I could create something similar by toning down the item's abilities somehow. The PRC's listed in other books other than those made for 3.5 can be quite powerful. From what my group discovered, the ones from Forgotten Realms caused some unbalancing in certain situations. I can definitely understand the time and effort placed into a good campaign, but it's a tough balance to make the player's happy and make your job easier. Our group on a few occasions voted to remove a magical item from the game. The biggest plus we had in that game is that people took turns running an adventure within the campaign and something that caused a problem for one DM could potentially be a problem for another... just imagine if someone had to run an adventure in your campaign, would it even be possible? Another option is to let the players know that at some pre-determined level you're going to have them redo their characters. This will give them a chance to work on the new character in advance. We did this when 3.5 came out and our characters were just inching toward 20th level and at that point everyone redid their characters... some people hadn't reached 20th level yet, but they redid their character on the level they were currently at or a level they figured they would be at. I think it would be easier to just say that when one person in your group reaches that level then everyone brings in their character at that level. As of now I'm still in a group of the same people that have agreed to play in the Diamond Throne campaign from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. We had a point buy and the only books available to us were the MC's AE, 3.5 PHB, and 3.5 DMG. So far the problems that the spells in PHB generated have been eliminated and I enjoy playing our game. Building an adventure takes a little more thought since you have to modify MM spell-like abilities, but I've noticed so far that it gives creatures a uniqueness since one DM may change one to be completely different from another DM... keeps the characters on their toes. Just some thoughts that may help or may not.
gleep 11-17-05, 04:06 PM	When converting from earlier editions to 3.5, I don't use the official guidelines. Instead, I look at the character itself and try to find a class/level/feat/etc combination that keeps the flavor of the character while fitting in, more or less, with the new rule system. It's the flavor that is important for role players. At least, it's supposed to be. :) Don't be too surprised in a disparity in levels. In a campaign conversion I did a while back, a 9th level ranger under 2e turned into a 15th level character in 3.0 then to a 12th in 3.5. Other 9th level characters bounced around just as much, with an end spread of 10-14th. We ended up bumping everyone to 15th. We still ended up a little above CR because of equipment and stats, but not far enough for the DM to be unable compensate. So talk to your players. You're all in this together, afterall. Presumably they want to continue playing the campaign as well. As a group, you are bound to come up with ideas, solutions, and compromises that will be more satisfactory than trying to figure out something this complex on your own. In the meantime, chill out a little. You're taking this way too seriously. Remember: It's just a game. :D --gleep
KJW 11-17-05, 04:53 PM	My questions would be: If I were starting over, I’d have them on a 28 point buy, gaining a few permanent stat boosts (thru the aforementioned uber-magic) here and there as they progressed. Is there a way I can gracefully bring them back down to that, or balance the game (at higher levels) for the stats they currently have? How can I realistically limit the prestige classes / and the situations in which the PCs have access to them in mid stream? The same goes for feats? I’ve done a good job at reining in spells from non PH sources. What can I do about the high magical nature of my campaign and still keep it viable (and balanced)? This uber-magic needs to be meted out to them so that they can complete the campaign. How can I reign in the magic items that the PCs currently have (such the staff of the magi)? I don’t want to just take it from them. That seems like railroading to me. Does anyone have any ideas about how I might go about using the GodsWar (for those of you who do not speak FR, the GodsWar was a time when the gods were forced to walk the Realms. Magic did not work right – cleric spells were limited to 2nd level and arcane spells were subject to wild magic results that could kill) to set things right? I want to tone down the stats and institute some house rules for how and when to take PrCs and feats. And I want to retroactively correct my mistakes when converting from 2e to 3e (but do so in a way that is not meta-game). TPK is not an option, as I am not willing to start over and have too much time and effort invested in this campaign. First off how outrageous are their stats? I find that stats in 3.5 are higher that I had in 2.0, there are more magic items and spells to temporarily raise stats and you also get that bonus point every four levels. My high-level PCs have pretty high stats, like I said much higher than I ever had in 2.0. As for limiting feats and prestige classes that is all part of the DM job, for example I dropped energy substitution (feat) from my campaign because it just didn't fit my campaign's use of magic. Now procedurally, what I do is state what I tend to change in the rules (usually by email) and give my players a chance for notice and comment. I weigh their imput, make a decision, and explain why I made my decision. I have seen that giving them a chance to give input really helps them accept my decision. Plus quite a few times the players have convinced me to leave something instead of changing it. Well there is epic magic (Epic Level Handbook) and incantantions (Unearthed Arcana) and I use these in my campaigns for uber-magic. Epic magic is a little awkward, but so is the entire D&D magic system and I just accept it as part of the system. Now to combine your two questions, the Godswar really is a great opportunity to chance things and fix the balance. A chance encounter with a some deity or magical effect could easily result in all the magic being drained from magic items, including the Staff of the Magi. So you have a great opportunity to rework your campaign world, don't hesitate to play hard and really nail the party, it is the Godswar after all. Just some thoughts.
mcmurphy510 11-17-05, 05:13 PM	I think the primary issue is the original conversion out of 2e. I started with 3.5 so I'm not familiar with the changes, but it seems like jumping an entire edition would introduce many unexpected problems unless you're starting with brand new characters. Your players should be ashamed of themselves for railroading you into that. ;) Yeah. I've got another 3.5 run, that started in 3.5 and so far no problems, so it probably is in the conversion. I do like 3.5 very much and would not start another D&D game in anything but 3.5, but I would think twice before I converted another campaign from 2e (but now I know so much more). Some ideas for nerfing the Staff of the Magi: • Limit the number of times per day the unlimited powers can be used • Declare that it costs one charge each day to allow the use of he "unlimited" powers, used the first time such a power is activated • Drop the staff's spell resistance to a lower value • Reorganise the charge requirements for varuous spells • Reduce the maximum number of charges ;) ;) ;) ;) I thought about doing something like that, but I allready allowed him to use it as is, I dont want to come off as being arbitrary. I might use the magic instability in the Time of Troubles as a catalyst for some of those. if youve got players whove been with you 7 years, then you must be a good DM, or at least a fun one. If you just go and tell them that under the 3.5 systym that they wanted, they are overpowered then they will moan and groan but i think the campaign will survive it since youve been playing for so long.... ....About the shadowdancer, dont worry, theres no reason why they cant build a charchter whos aspiring to be a shadow dancer in the game world as well as the real one, when you feel that its metagaming, remember that though people wont talk in game mechanics terms when you talk to them, theres no reason they dont understand the powers and abilities in the game. Let him be a shadowdancer, but make it so it has strings attached-pehaps he called in some favours to get the class, and now a powerful organisation is after him for repaiment in services or if he refuses, his blood. Thanks. I hope so, i've been at it long enough. My strong point is story and plot and character development, and no so much mechanics. You are probably right, I just dont want to come off as contrite. I dont have a problem with them building their characters specific prestige classes. It's just that I told him ok to going for it early on, and by the time she qualified for it my concept of PrCs had morphed into a world building tool. So when she leveled up I did'nt have the heart to tell her "sorry, but all your planning is for naught. You need to find an in game way to gain the PrC." Especally since I had not told her that from the beginning (now of course when any new PrCs are asked about I tell them that). My question is now how do I 'attach those strings' in-game without doing something retroactive? I was running a campaign for awhile where PRC's had to be gained by the character doing something extraordinary or even by some ritual or ceremony done by the church or an organization the character belonged to. Yeah. That's kind of the idea I had in mind. I want them to have their PrCs, but I want them to be linked to orginizations or churches or governments and the like. Some obvious ones are, like Red Wizard or Purple Dragon of Cormyr, but others like Shadow Dancer and Mystic Theurge are a bit harder to pin down. Another option is to let the players know that at some pre-determined level you're going to have them redo their characters. This will give them a chance to work on the new character in advance. We did this when 3.5 came out and our characters were just inching toward 20th level and at that point everyone redid their characters... some people hadn't reached 20th level yet, but they redid their character on the level they were currently at or a level they figured they would be at. I think it would be easier to just say that when one person in your group reaches that level then everyone brings in their character at that level. I'm thinking about using the GodsWar / Time of Troubles for something like this. I want to do something like an adjustment, rather than a total re-do. Any suggestions for how to go about it? When does 4th edition come out. LOL When converting from earlier editions to 3.5, I don't use the official guidelines. Instead, I look at the character itself and try to find a class/level/feat/etc combination that keeps the flavor of the character while fitting in, more or less, with the new rule system. It's the flavor that is important for role players. At least, it's supposed to be. Yeah. I did'nt go by the 'official' guidelines either. I tried to keep the flavor of the character without going over the level limits. I used a very conservative approach to conversion, but alot of the issues creeped in anyway. Thanks all for your ideas. I'm gonna try to put some of 'em to use.
mcmurphy510 11-17-05, 08:27 PM	First off how outrageous are their stats? I find that stats in 3.5 are higher that I had in 2.0, there are more magic items and spells to temporarily raise stats and you also get that bonus point every four levels. My high-level PCs have pretty high stats, like I said much higher than I ever had in 2.0. I figure their stats are equivelant to a 40+ point build. Back then (under 2e) I was having them roll 4d6 drop 1, reroll 1's once, and roll 8 times, the two leftover stats went into a DM tracked luck / character point type thing. The most outrageous character, for example, rolled stats of 18, 17, 16, 16, 15, 14, 12, 8 (the 12 and the 8 were the ones dropped). I would have said they were cheating if I had not seen them roll it up personally (and used the dice myself to see that they weren't weighted). In the groups that I gamed with we usually had high stat characters, but it seemed a whole lot more manageable under 2e. As for limiting feats and prestige classes that is all part of the DM job, for example I dropped energy substitution (feat) from my campaign because it just didn't fit my campaign's use of magic. Now procedurally, what I do is state what I tend to change in the rules (usually by email) and give my players a chance for notice and comment. I weigh their imput, make a decision, and explain why I made my decision. I have seen that giving them a chance to give input really helps them accept my decision. Plus quite a few times the players have convinced me to leave something instead of changing it. The email thing sounds like a really good idea. I have a yahoo group set up for my game, I guess I could use it to facilitate this as well, and that way there'll be a record of the rule and of the discussion. Well there is epic magic (Epic Level Handbook) and incantantions (Unearthed Arcana) and I use these in my campaigns for uber-magic. Epic magic is a little awkward, but so is the entire D&D magic system and I just accept it as part of the system. Now to combine your two questions, the Godswar really is a great opportunity to chance things and fix the balance. A chance encounter with a some deity or magical effect could easily result in all the magic being drained from magic items, including the Staff of the Magi. So you have a great opportunity to rework your campaign world, don't hesitate to play hard and really nail the party, it is the Godswar after all. Epic Magic seems quite unwealdy, but like you said the whole D&D magic system is that way. I will have to check out incantations. Thanks for your suggegstions.
devinmdp 11-17-05, 10:11 PM	FYI, I run a high level campaiogn that has converted 2E PCs and one of them also had a staff of the magi. That item is only powerful by virtue of a single ability, the summon monster IX ability. Therefore, it is very easy to negate by means of an Unhallow spell or other magic that stops summoning. Once you take away that single ability, the staff becomes very manageable. Devin
mcmurphy510 11-18-05, 03:48 PM	FYI, I run a high level campaiogn that has converted 2E PCs and one of them also had a staff of the magi. That item is only powerful by virtue of a single ability, the summon monster IX ability. Therefore, it is very easy to negate by means of an Unhallow spell or other magic that stops summoning. Once you take away that single ability, the staff becomes very manageable. Devin You read my mind! That is the primary issue I have with the staff presently. I will look into the unhallow spell. I was also thinking along the lines of spells that allow summoned creatures, but causes them to come in uncontrolled. Do you (or anyone) know of any other spells / abilities that will do that / or prevent summoning completely.
Jaxom 11-18-05, 04:16 PM	I'm thinking about using the GodsWar / Time of Troubles for something like this. I want to do something like an adjustment, rather than a total re-do. Any suggestions for how to go about it? When does 4th edition come out. LOL By reading everything that you've told us and some of the feedback from others, it sounds like you're group might be a little above baseline for wealth as well as ability scores. You can tell the group some of your basic plans, like when this certain event occurs you're thinking of doing some modifications to ability scores. Maybe explaining that you're reason for dropping the scores isn't to make the characters less powerful, that it's to help you be able to work more on plot and storylines instead of spending so much time into making an encounter challenging to the party. I've sundered a character's staff because they were healing with it every round, a smart creature will break weapons and magical items if it can. If the staff gets sundered it may be able to be repaired and then at that point you could tell the player that the Monster Summoning magic doesn't seem to work anymore. I've done it on many occasions, gave a magic item or allowed someone to take a PRC and then realize that in every encounter you have to challenge the party without totally negating one character's abilities on purpose. I have even had a few nights where I've ended the session and then went over a few problems that I had in an encouter if it seemed as though it wasn't challenging enough to the group. I asked for advice on how a creature or villain would counter an ability. I sometimes got some good answers and then later on in the campaing I'd use those ideas against the party. Just like someone mentioned unhallow against the summoning... anti-magic fields, counter spells. I wish I could get write ups of all your party members to check out and look at. Maybe we would see somethings you could do to make things a bit better.
devinmdp 11-21-05, 03:25 AM	You read my mind! That is the primary issue I have with the staff presently. I will look into the unhallow spell. I was also thinking along the lines of spells that allow summoned creatures, but causes them to come in uncontrolled. Do you (or anyone) know of any other spells / abilities that will do that / or prevent summoning completely. I meant to say Forbiddance, not Unhallow.