Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kaeso 01-16-06, 06:23 PM	I'm a new DM and so if this was really stupid of me, then sorry, I won't do it again. Last night my players played one of the short adventures that's on the wizards site, and they went into a cave and then came back and found 8 rats attacking their horses. I decided that it was careless of them to leave the horses unguarded in a cave (the druid could have left his wolf behind to guard them), and so I decided that one of the horses was killed by the rats (also, next session a new player is gonna be introduced, and seeing as they have used up a lot of their spells and one of them in unconscious, I figured it would be a nice 'new player saves the day' event, even if the player didn't really save the day, cause they're just rats.) Could 8 rats actually take down a horse? Just wondering, cause I didn't realize how stupid it sounded until all my players just stared at me and said "Rats? Rats took down a horse?..." me: "They're... really big rats?..." We stopped with them getting ready to go save the horses, so I guess I could make them dire rats or something...
Rez 01-16-06, 06:28 PM	I'd say the rats could under the right circumstances like: 1. The horse was weakened already (perhaps not fully grown) 2. The rats weren't normal 'rats' (aka magically enhanced, surprised the horse, larger then normal..I mean much larger) Technically, I'd say without help, the rats couldn't take a normal horse down without some sort of help.... Dire rats perhaps could, or 'giant rats'...
Mandarbgrim 01-16-06, 06:29 PM	hmmm...in D&D? Maybe. In real life..I don't think so.
SodaGuy 01-16-06, 06:35 PM	Assuming they were heavy warhorses, the rats would have an average of 60 attacks to kill it. I'd definitely make them giant or dire rats.
The Abominable Darkling 01-16-06, 06:42 PM	Well, I assume you're talking about a light horse here. The horse will kill a rat every time it hits and thus will kill about 1.5 rats every two rounds. Thus, it will take the horse about 10 rounds to kill all the rats. About half the rats will hit the horse each turn for 1 point of damage. So, the horse is almost certainly toast (but it'll take 4-5 rats with it). However, that's only in D&D world. As Mandarbgrim pointed out, there's no way a rat would ever attack a healthy horse in real life (nor could the rat accomplish anything if it tried). I suggest you replace the rats with rabid dire rats. Otherwise, you will severely strain the credibility of your game world.
Nom 01-16-06, 06:43 PM	Purely answering from game mechanics: Regular rats? Rat: Tiny animal, 1/4 HD, 1 hp, AC 14, Atk bite +4 melee (1d3-4). Horse, light: Large animal, 3 HD, 19 hp, AC 13, Atk hoof -2 melee (1d4+1). Note that "Rats usually run away. They bite only as a last resort." (MM pg 278), so it would be highly unsual for only 8 of them to try to assault a horse. Assuming that they did and that the horse couldn't run, let's simulate the battle: General: - horse needs 16 (25%) or better to hit a rat, killing it - rat needs 7 (70%) or better (includes flanking bonus for sharing square) to hit the horse for 1 hp Round 1: - Horse makes 3 attacks (full attack + 1 AoO), killing one rat. - Rats make 8 attacks, hitting with 6. Horse loses 6 hp (13 remain). Round 2: - Horse makes 2 attacks (full attack), killing no rats. - Rats make 7 attacks, hitting with 5. Horse loses 5 hp (4 remain). Round 3: - Horse makes 2 attacks (full attack), killing one rat. - Rats make 7 attacks, hitting with 4. Horse loses 4 hp (0 remain). Round 4: - Horse makes 1 attack, killing no rats and falling unconscious. - Rats kill horse in 2 more rounds. So it is theoretically possible for 8 rats to take down a light riding horse that cannot run away, but it would be very unlikely for the situation to occur. If the horse was a light warhorse (22 hp, AC 14, 2 hooves +4 melee and bite -1 melee) then the rats would be easily killed. In contrast, 8 dire rats would make short work of a light riding horse.
Araciel 01-16-06, 06:44 PM	make them moon rats from MMII and have them devise a way to make their transformation permanent, then create little siege machines that they could use to kill horses
BW0222 01-16-06, 06:54 PM	Normal rats? As a player I'd walk away from your campaign. Rats have a wisdom of 12. They have the common sense to not attempt suicidal activities for no purpose. A horse can easily kill two or three rats per round. Just about any attack hits (AC 14) and any hit kills (1hp). A rat needs to take an AoO just to get into the same square as a horse. Four horses would kill 5-6 rats per round, easy. Given three or four rounds for a group of a dozen rats to drop a single horse, a group of horses would easily kill 15-25 or so rats in that period of time. Thus, you'd need a hundred rats just to have a 1 in 4 chance of surviving an attack. Of course the horses could just break free and retreat after killing a few dozen rats. Eight wolves wouldn't risk going after a pack of horses. Eight rats wouldn't risk going after a dog, let alone a 1000lb horse. Also, why would rats attack a horse? They aren't preditors and they can't eat an entire horse, there are easier sources of food (insects, frogs, mice, grasses, nuts, berries, etc.), and real preditors would likely come along to claim the kill. Normal animals aren't suicidal. Baring someone controlling the rats -- a wererat for example, normal rats just aren't going to try it. Try a pack of wolves, a pair of leopards, or something which might normally try to take down a large herbavore.
kaeso 01-16-06, 06:56 PM	well the horses are tied up (they're in a cave cause of the really bad storm outside, and I assumed they tied the horses up tight so that lightning woudln't scare them into running away) and I figured since it's D&D, rats could take out a horse. I'll make them bigger rats, maybe I'll make them dire or moon rats or something. thanks for the help guys
Sulaco 01-16-06, 07:03 PM	Normal rats? As a player I'd walk away from your campaign. And as a person with a low tolerance for immaturity I'd happily let you go. Any person who would "walk away from a campaign" over something so monumentally inconsequential is not someone I'd want to game with in the first place.
BW0222 01-16-06, 07:25 PM	Nom, You are forgetting a few things and your horses aren't operating with any intelligence. First, the first rat takes an AoO since it must enter the horses square. Second, there is no flanking bonus for sharing a square. PHP p153 "Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent". Third, even if the horse is tied up, one couldn't somehow break free (DC to break a leather cord is about 5), of course they can move at least 5'. No one ties up a horse such that it couldn't sleep. Even tied to a tree, it could move around the tree some 25' circle (since it is 10' square moving in a circle). Forth, there are multiple horses and they are likely tied up fair close to each other. Try: Round #1: Four horses smell the rats and ready actions to attack them. Eight rats move with 15' or so. Round #2: Eight rats charge (-2 AC) one horse. Each horse take their readied actions (taking 5' steps to move next to any one horse being attacked). At least one horse gets an AoO as the rats move near. Out of 4 or so attacks, 2 rats are dead. The remaining 6 rats do an average of 3 hp of damage to one horse. Note: all the rats would be in the outside squares of one or more of the horses. Round #3: The horse with rats in it's square attacks (once) and moves out back 10'. 6 rats get AoOs and do another 3hp of damage. The remaining three horses each attack twice. 6 attacks and likely 3 dead rats. All the rats are still at a 12 AC. Each horse moves back 5'. The 3 rats are now 10' away from the three (undamages) horses. They move forward, to attack and a horse gets another AoO. Another dead rat and the remaining two deal an average of 1hp of damage. Round #4. The horse attacks once, moves away from the rats. Taking another 1hp (average) from the AoO. The remaining three horses move next to the two rats and finish them off.
Zendu 01-16-06, 07:38 PM	Theres an easy solution to your problem...rabid dire rats. Just say you forgot to let the druid roll his knowledge nature check to tell they were rabid, and off you go, rabid rats would take almost any odds, even suicidal ones.
Kuronue 01-16-06, 07:41 PM	I know! They're really 8 polymorphed silver dragons! And they really killed the horse with magic, but then gnawed on it a bit to make it LOOK like it was eaten by rats!
Sae Cael Oanar 01-16-06, 09:00 PM	the horse would break free and run away, if its not tied it would just run. i horse on the loose can be just as annoying as a dead one.
Arak the mighty 01-16-06, 09:34 PM	As a last resort, if you haven't played again yet, it's not too late to just say "sorry guys, I'm a new DM, just kinda feeling my way, and I think I made a mistake here, let's just say the horse got gnawed on a little bit, but is otherwise unhurt. Maybe just remember in the future to not leave your horses alone and unguarded"
Nom 01-16-06, 09:37 PM	First, the first rat takes an AoO since it must enter the horses square.Agreed. You'll note that the horse gets 3 attacks in the first round. It still needs a 16 or better to hit. Second, there is no flanking bonus for sharing a square. PHP p153 "Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent".PH pg 149 defers to the DMG on rules about major size differences. DMG pg 29 is quite explicit that such creatures can flank as long as they are in the opponent's square. Third, even if the horse is tied up, one couldn't somehow break free (DC to break a leather cord is about 5), of course they can move at least 5'. No one ties up a horse such that it couldn't sleep. Even tied to a tree, it could move around the tree some 25' circle (since it is 10' square moving in a circle).There's a lot of assumptions there. The horses are in a cave. We don't know how much room they have. I decided to take the worst case and assume that the victim horse could not take a 5 ft. step (for whatever reason). Even allowing a 5 ft. step won't make that much difference. The extra AoO grants the horse one extra attack per round, increasing hits per round from 0.5 to 0.75. Even if we don't allow the rats to flank, they still expect to do over 0.5 hits per rat per round. Assuming mean hits/round from the rats and 1 kill per round from the horse (generous to the horse), the horse suffers its 19th point of damage in round 7 and 20th in round 8. Closer, but still a victory for the rat pack. If the horse uses a move action (because it can't 5 ft. step, for example) then the horse loses one attack per round because it can't full attack. This swings the situation more in the rats favour. Forth, there are multiple horses and they are likely tied up fair close to each other. Try: Round #1: Four horses smell the rats and ready actions to attack them. Eight rats move with 15' or so.More likely, they attempt to bolt unless restricted by their tethers. Riding horses will not attempt to attack unless they have no other option. That is only true for the victim. Your entire example assumes that the horses act like a pack of hunting carnivores (eg wolves) not a pack of passive herbivores. That said, rats wont attack unless they have no other option either. 8 cowardly Tiny creatures vs a seemingly alert and active Large creature is not going to happen without severe extenuating circumstances.
Edymnion 01-16-06, 10:15 PM	Yes, the rats could kill a normal light horse. Yes, the rats COULD have enough motivation to attack it. Its called hunger. I have personally seen rats get up the size of a small housecat, a good foot or more long, not counting the tail. we're not talking cute little 3 inch long mice here, we're talking about D&D *RATS*. D&D rats are size Tiny. Accourding to the Monster Manual, that makes them 1 to 2 feet long, and 1 to 8 pounds. Are you seriously telling me that you can't imagine 8 housecat size ravenous rats being able to take down a typically docile creature when it is tied down to one spot? These are *BIG* rats. If they are hungry enough, and there are enough of them, then yes, they will attack what they see as easy prey. They could easily swarm the horse, get on it's back, and the horse would not be able to fight back. Best it could do is try to knock them off and then step on them. They're smaller than him, faster than him, and more agile. Not to mention the fact that rats have razor sharp teeth, a very powerful bite, and it would only take ONE of them to bite through a tendon in the horse's leg, hamstringing it? A normal house rat thats 6 inches long from nose to tip of tail can chew through steel plate, I've seen where they've done it before. And we're talking about scaling these things up from the size of your hand to nearly the size of your forearm, big and mean enough that just ONE of them stands a good chance of being able to take down a normal human being (lvl 1 commoner) thats completely capable of fighting back, and you're still telling me that EIGHT of them would be totally incapable of taking out a light horse that has been tied to one spot? Seriously people, you don't give nature enough respect. 8 D&D sized rats could easily take that horse down. Its not trained to fight, its not going to attack the rats first, and its probably going to spend several rounds trying to break it's reigns and escape, and by then, the rats (who are easily smart enough to follow a plan of attack) can have bitten through it's tendons to take it down to the ground, where it wouldn't be able to fight back. Yes, its entirely possible, and if there isn't enough food in the area, it is entirely reasonable that the rats would pack together and try to take down large game.
The Abominable Darkling 01-16-06, 10:37 PM	I can't believe what you're trying to argue here, Edymnion. I've seen rats (big ones), and I've seen horses (small ones), and there's just no way a bunch of rats are going to take down a horse. If you want to convince me otherwise, then you'd best provide some facts to back up your bizarre assertions.
Mandarbgrim 01-16-06, 11:34 PM	Putting aside the argument. It doesn't matter if they could or not, it matters if your PC's find it believable. Rabid Dire Rats was a good suggestion. Having the Rats being commanded by a WereRat is another. A Swarm of Rats is another. I believe there was a Cinder Rat or Ash Rat in the MM2. You could actually make a plothook out of this..where the PC's began to investigate unnaturally acting animals after they remark upon it in the next town, or hear rumors of other events. Or perhaps hired to thin down the coyote/wolf/scavenger population that has been preying upon the local sheep/goats/cattle/pigs. All leading to a showdown with a Evil Druid that has corrupted a local spring. He did so while accessing a Leyline to raise his lover, a Dryad. Of course, it all went south and she comes back in undead form, driving the Druid mad. Soo...unnatural animals, Corrupted animated undead Tree, Undead Dryad, Evil Mad Druid... Sounds halfway decent.
Kadasbrass 01-16-06, 11:54 PM	This is D&D, its not the real world. As writen in the MM and with the anaylsis done by Nom, we can easily prove that 8 regular D&D rats could take down a D&D horse. In real life, Rats may be able to cause great harm or pain to a horse without much risk (horse may figth back, but would more then liekly kick or stump about wildly then real attacks). But the rats wouldn't be able to do much else then attack the legs untill it had taken enough damage (and alot at that) to finally fall. Ultimately a horse would more then likely be finished off by a disease delivered by the rats. But once again, this is D&D, not real life. So the rats win. Now lets go over a Kobold vs a Owl, both are CR 1/4 :D
kaeso 01-17-06, 01:13 AM	wow, sorry this turned into an argument at some point... they will be something besides normal rats I think, just for real-world logic's sake (even if it does make sense mechanically in D&D, my players probably wouldn't believe me). The short adventure is 'A Dark and Stormy Knight,' and it says that at a certain point a thunderstrike shakes the tor that they are in, knocking down the previously jammed doors and releasing 8 rats. I just decided that happened while they were fighting other monsters. I do want them to fight off the rats, because I want the new player to jump into her first combat sequence and kind of 'save the day' for them. oh, and I vote for the owl, it'll just swoop down and fly away with the kobold, and then drop it. Wait, unless it's too heavy to lift...
Millennium 01-17-06, 07:04 AM	In real life: maybe if the rats were carrying ebola or something. Otherwise, no. In D&D: Sure, but it's perhaps best left for silly campaigns.
Sulaco 01-17-06, 09:10 AM	I can't believe what you're trying to argue here, Edymnion. I've seen rats (big ones), and I've seen horses (small ones), and there's just no way a bunch of rats are going to take down a horse. If you want to convince me otherwise, then you'd best provide some facts to back up your bizarre assertions. The only "facts" that apply here are the D&D rules. Both rats and horses have stats and can enter combat with each other. Thanks to random chance it is possible for any creature to take out any other creature (barring things like DR of course). Is it likely that 8 rats could kill a horse? no. Is it possible? Most certainly. My advice is to alter the event slightly and make it a rat swarm that attacked the horse.
carioca 01-17-06, 09:45 AM	a starving swarm of rats maybe. when the players get closer you tell they can see lots of rats in the shadows. dire rats sound as an option also. okej, maybe 8 common rats can kill a horse in game mechanics... but it sounds silly anyway.
Descended 01-17-06, 10:26 AM	I'd have happily given the horse a +5 natural armor bonus versus typically sized rats, on the assumption that they would rarely get in an attack much above the hoof. Ninja pirate rats, on the other hand ...
Sereno 01-17-06, 10:28 AM	My son rides horses, so we're around them quite a bit. Even a docile horse trained for therapeutic riding would not simply stand still, or simply panic, if it was being attacked by (normal) rats. They would bite and kick and stomp anything that was trying to bite them. They wouldn't coordinate attacks like a pack of wolves, but each horse would do its best to stomp any small creature attacking it. And, it's not the strength of the leather lead that prevents a horse from running away, it's the training they get to "respect" it. Even a small horse is very strong and can easily snap halters or ropes. They can even kick down wooden fences if they have to. Stopping a horse from kicking in its stall is a training issue, because physically, they're capable of splintering wooden boards (or human bones) with their hooves.
The Abominable Darkling 01-17-06, 10:33 AM	The only "facts" that apply here are the D&D rules. ... Is it likely that 8 rats could kill a horse? no. Is it possible? Most certainly. I'll thank you to pay closer attention to what I say. I was speaking about the real world (as was Edymnion). My first post dealt with D&D world. I refer you there for my opinion on the matter.
rykit 01-17-06, 10:39 AM	My sugestion, when the new player enters, give him a spot check and tell him he sees a humanoid shape in the bushes. Enter WereRat minor BBE. Were rats can control regular rats so this solves the problem of why are the rats attacking. If you give him a couple of levels of marshel then he can use his power to buff the rats to do a little more damage. When his rat army is killed he runs off, so now your players have some reoccuring though minor bad guy to hunt down. My last camapign had a BBE like this who was only supposed to be a minor side quest, but ended up making enough appearahces she ended up being one of the major forces in that world. Rykit
Chobemaster 01-17-06, 10:43 AM	By rule it's possible. Why are there packs of ravenous rats in the area? Where do they come from? How did they to be so large in number, if there's no food source now? Did the PC's have any means to note the presence of almost supernaturally hungry rats in the area? I'd think most plants would be dug up, there wouldn't be grasshoppers around, whatever took their normal food source would be impacting the ecology in other ways, etc. Whether or not the rats "could" win, conuring these psychopathic rats from whole cloth to "teach a lesson" is DM metagaming. If you want to attack the horses, do it with a predator consistent with the area. If there ARE no credible predators in the area, then the horses should be safe unattended. Most PLAYERS don't have 1st hand knowledge of what to do w/ horses...but the characters would. If the reality in the area (as envisioned by the DM) is that horses would need to be watched, then the CHARACTERS should have a chance to know that, be it a direct reminder from the DM informing the players of a bit of character knowledge, or in-game clues.
Sulaco 01-17-06, 10:44 AM	a starving swarm of rats maybe. when the players get closer you tell they can see lots of rats in the shadows. Sorry, I fail to see how a CR2 creature that auto-hits for 1d6+disease every round and whose target must make a DC 11 save even to be able to attack needs to be made "starving" to justify taking out an ordinary CR 1 horse. Specifically menting that there are "lots of rats" in a swarm is more than a little redundant. A swarm is, by definition, lots of a creature working together as a single unit.
Andreas0815 01-17-06, 11:17 AM	Well, as this happens in a cave, let the rats jump down from a rock (+1 on first attack due to higher ground) on the horseback. I think some Rats swarming a horse and coming from above so they can go for the head/throat can kill a horse. Best thing is, donīt make it rats (but a swarm of rats could work well), make it some wild animal that tracked the horses/party and followed the party into the cave. Maybe something catlike or a small bear...
Edymnion 01-17-06, 11:47 PM	I can't believe what you're trying to argue here, Edymnion. I've seen rats (big ones), and I've seen horses (small ones), and there's just no way a bunch of rats are going to take down a horse. If you want to convince me otherwise, then you'd best provide some facts to back up your bizarre assertions.Here's one for ya: http://www.altpet.net/rodents/cricetomys/jo/jo3-98.jpg That was a real, living rat, and probably a good approximation of a D&D rat. This thing is clearly big enough to bite off an adult human's finger in one bite. You get 8 of these things that are half starved and looking at me as potential dinner, I know that I'm going to run like hell. And considering I've personally seen where the normal 6 inch variety can chew through sheet metal, I don't have any problem seeing how something that big could hamstring a horse if it snuck up on it and went straight for a tendon.
DaveReaves 01-17-06, 11:56 PM	I'm a new DM and so if this was really stupid of me, then sorry, I won't do it again. Last night my players played one of the short adventures that's on the wizards site, and they went into a cave and then came back and found 8 rats attacking their horses. I decided that it was careless of them to leave the horses unguarded in a cave (the druid could have left his wolf behind to guard them), and so I decided that one of the horses was killed by the rats (also, next session a new player is gonna be introduced, and seeing as they have used up a lot of their spells and one of them in unconscious, I figured it would be a nice 'new player saves the day' event, even if the player didn't really save the day, cause they're just rats.) Could 8 rats actually take down a horse? Just wondering, cause I didn't realize how stupid it sounded until all my players just stared at me and said "Rats? Rats took down a horse?..." me: "They're... really big rats?..." We stopped with them getting ready to go save the horses, so I guess I could make them dire rats or something... well a bunch of rats nearly wiped out europe a while back...granted it wasn't the rat but a bunch of fleas :) otherwise no, trample with the horse
Kursk 01-18-06, 01:05 AM	...Could 8 rats actually take down a horse? Just wondering, ... 8 normal rats? No.
Morbid 01-18-06, 03:32 AM	It's D&D play it out the right way. Rats are attacking the horses and feeding on the carrion remains... But could rats kill the horse? No... So whatever DID kill the horses may yet be lurking in the shadows.... Or at least thats how I'd do it. That way it doesn't seem as strange.
TRCEttin 01-18-06, 04:11 AM	Or maybe - uh oh - they're psionic draconic half-fey advanced dire pyro-rust monster wererats!
Sereno 01-18-06, 09:20 AM	Here's one for ya: http://www.altpet.net/rodents/cricetomys/jo/jo3-98.jpg That was a real, living rat, and probably a good approximation of a D&D rat. This thing is clearly big enough to bite off an adult human's finger in one bite. You get 8 of these things that are half starved and looking at me as potential dinner, I know that I'm going to run like hell. And considering I've personally seen where the normal 6 inch variety can chew through sheet metal, I don't have any problem seeing how something that big could hamstring a horse if it snuck up on it and went straight for a tendon. Sure, that's a big rat, but a horse's tendons are like thick cables. Yes, they can gnaw through steel plating ... but not all in one bite. They have to keep working at it and working at it, nibble by nibble. No horse would just stand there an let it happen. As soon as they got bitten they'd start jumping around (to throw off whatever's biting it) and stomping everything in site. Here's a picture of the kind of horse my son rides (a Haflinger); http://www.haflinger.ca/picture_page.htm they're not very big but they've got very strong legs and big feet; they'd make a good approximation for a D&D riding horse or light warhorse. One hoof would completely cover that big rat. Rats are scavengers, not predators, and they wouldn't know to "go for the tendons" as a wolf or puma might.
Sulaco 01-18-06, 10:42 AM	What a shock, a D&D discussion that devolves into real-world pedantry. :nonono: Seriously kaeso, I think your best bet is to simply say the rats constituted a rat swarm (check you MM for stats) as said rat swarm - a number of rats working together as a single unit - is more than capable of dropping a horse (or a low-level PC for that matter)
Loopy 01-18-06, 10:56 AM	Yes, the rats could kill a normal light horse. Yes, the rats COULD have enough motivation to attack it. Its called hunger. I have personally seen rats get up the size of a small housecat, a good foot or more long, not counting the tail. we're not talking cute little 3 inch long mice here, we're talking about D&D *RATS*. D&D rats are size Tiny. Accourding to the Monster Manual, that makes them 1 to 2 feet long, and 1 to 8 pounds. I live on the Hudson River. Oh, they get that big alright. They attack children one-on-one. One time, my cousin and I were driving at night and we saw a "large cat" walking across the street. When it got in the headlights, we realized it wasn't a cat. It also wasn't a 'possum or a 'coon. The sucker was a gigantic rat. It wasn't even afraid... it just trundled accross the street no problem.I would use giant rats in your example, but, of course, you don't want to kill the party, either.
Sulaco 01-18-06, 11:06 AM	Having once been charged by a sewer rat the size of a friggin' cinder block I can verify that those suckers are big. The only thing that saved me was a heretofore untapped abilty to jump 3 feet straight up from a standing start and to scream like a cheerleader.
Loopy 01-18-06, 11:18 AM	Having once been charged by a sewer rat the size of a friggin' cinder block I can verify that those suckers are big. The only thing that saved me was a heretofore untapped abilty to jump 3 feet straight up from a standing start and to scream like a cheerleader. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
kaeso 01-18-06, 06:16 PM	What a shock, a D&D discussion that devolves into real-world pedantry. :nonono: Seriously kaeso, I think your best bet is to simply say the rats constituted a rat swarm (check you MM for stats) as said rat swarm - a number of rats working together as a single unit - is more than capable of dropping a horse (or a low-level PC for that matter) k, thanks