Post/Author/DateTime	Post
coldreboot 11-30-05, 06:55 AM	OK, I admit it: I'm a control freak. Basically, as I'm starting my own campaign for gaming in January, and for most of the players taking part it will be their first time playing D&D (not d20 in general though), I want it to succeed. I was thinking of making a list of classes and saying that each player can choose one each (only from the list) and the same with race (only from a list), to make sure the party is balanced with enough variety. I was even considering fixing exactly where their characters hale from, although they can obviously write their own bios, looks, names etc. Is this going to far? I want to give them more freedom, but it's a case of just knowing it's going to end up an entire party of half-elves, or everyone being Rangers/magic users. As the group is going to be only 4-6 players, I need to make sure they have at least a couple of fighters. Any advice, oh wise DMs? :D
eagleye 11-30-05, 07:14 AM	This seems indeed, too strict. Remember that the main goal is for everyone to have fun. Did you talk to your players about this individualy, speaking about what character they would like to play? You might be surprised and with a bit of luck you'll have a balanced party in which everyone plays his favourite character. You could lay forth general guidelines like you want to have at least one straight warrior, mage, rogue and priest. Let them fill it in if they want the warrior to be a plain fighter, ranger, paladin, .. and the priest to be either a cleric or a druid. Don't restrict them too much.
coldreboot 11-30-05, 07:20 AM	I haven't got as far as sorting all this out yet, but yeah I can see where your idea might be better. The only thing is say someone picks a magic-user, I wan't them to have been schooled in a particular place in my campaign world, in order to have an adventure related to them and where they come from. I wanted to do that for a few or all of the players so they could have an adventure revolving around them at some point. Initially though, it might just seem like I'm trying to pigeon-hole them. I'll ask them when the time comes and see what the thinking is, I guess. Thanks for the thoughts :)
strcpy 11-30-05, 08:05 AM	I understand your concern that if someone selects to play wizard, than they must come from one a certain set of wizard schools in your world. As important as this is to you, it can be rather trivial to your player who has spent the last 3 days thinking about his character unique history. You come along and say, no, you cannot have that history because it conflicts with my world. That's a bad start to a game... I know I would be a little miffed about that. What I did with my players is I said, go mad, make your character historys and submit them to me a week before we start playing. I got the character concepts, and I built their concepts into my world. For my rogue player, I had to create a whole second thieves guild (because he had included lots of flavour about where he came from and why he was a thief and how he got in the guild) ... for me it's great because I get free npc's and ideas and easy plot hooks. Plus my player really feels more apart of the world because of it. You can do something real similiar for your magic users. I also don't suggest being to strict on character classes. I mean if you have a party of all elf rangers only, you can have as much fun DMing that as a normal balanced party. In fact if might be more fun because you can challenge a party of all elf rangers in a very differant way to a stock standard party. I once played in an all fighter party. It was totally fun. We kicked a few wizards around too, it's all about planning and tactics and knowing when to run and what items to buy (equipment for us was our key to success). A total differant playing experiance for us than the norm.
pinky_si 11-30-05, 08:42 AM	If you story is heavily dependent on the characters, and you figure the players would be ok with it, create the characters you want in the story yourself and let the players pick from the available characters. Don't be surprised, however, when the moment they get their grubby little hands on them that they differ widely from the concept you'd originally had in mind :) As a player I wouldn't mind playing in a campaign like that, providing the DM didn't do it every time they started a new campaign. But for a change, it could be nice to have a pre-backstoried, cohesive party ready to go. If your players are big on creating their own characters/backgrounds, go with the other people's ideas above.
nonsi 11-30-05, 08:49 AM	since they're inexperienced, I think the mandatory warrior-mage-rogue-priest that was suggested is a good one. other than that, you could advise, but give them their freedom to decide how to build their character. and don't count on them to take certain spells or items when you plan your adventures, otherwise they might reach a dead end and get stuck.
clarkvalentine 11-30-05, 08:50 AM	If you have a good reason for doing this sort of thing, it can work. Having the PCs all be siblings, or all be from the same village, for instance, can aid party cohesion. Outlawing outrageous races or odd class combinations that don't work in the setting is fine. But, it's almost always better to work with your players in character generation if you're going to have these restrictions. Have the first session be nothing but chargen and a short play session - don't expect them to show up with perfect characters ready to rock. Be ready to explain your reasons for the restrictions - "Because I said so" isn't really good enough. There needs to be a uniqueness to the setting or some story reason why you do it. And I say that not to discourage you, I usually have some sort of restrictions in mind going into a game I'm GMing as well. The biggest enemy of creativity is a lack of boundaries, some have said.
coldreboot 11-30-05, 08:57 AM	Well, I'm not talking total clone playing. I'ts hard for me to explain, but I'll try. Imagine I'm having this conversation with my players: Me: "Ok, there aren't many of you and it's your first time, so I want to make sure we all have fun and the game remains balanced in your favour, so here is a list of classes *hands list which shows to base classes, NOT psionics* so you can all pick one. I'd appreciate it if at least two of you went for fighting classes, and at least one of you picked a rogue class. Otherwise you may find yourselves too weak as a party, or you may get stuck when it comes to traps/locks." OK, so now assume everyone's picked there classes/races etc. Me: *looking at rogue class player* "Ok, you can make up whatever you want about your character's history thus far, as long as you incorporate the fact he is a novice member of this theives guild. This is so we can have an adventure at some point, involving your affiliation with them" Basically, I'd say this to the party cleric (member of a church, although they can choose the deity) and magic user (school of magic) as well. I might even get the player to point on the campaign map where their character was raised. Might not seem important, but for races it could be (Ie a city elf compared to a forest elf). I hope that makes me sound less of a monster! :D Basically I just want the PCs to be a part of the campaign world from the beginning, and not as if they've just wandered in out of nowhere to start bashing monsters! LOL!
Toptomcat 11-30-05, 09:01 AM	Yes, that's absolutely OK, especially for first-time players. It keeps them from getting overwhelmed by the amount of options they have.
coldreboot 11-30-05, 09:02 AM	TopTomCat, thanks for the support but I just edited my post, so you may want to comment on the new info - incase it's not ok! LOL!
VerinBlod 11-30-05, 09:02 AM	It sounds to me as being too strict. I understand that you want a balanced party and nice backgrounds for the individual characters but I think that that's something up to the players. If they don't want to have a balanced party one way or another than they will have to deal with the consequences of that choice. E.g trapfinding will be very difficult without a rogue type. Consequence: you get hit by a trap. For you the DM the consequence is that you sometimes have to cater to the specific needs of the party. E.G hiring a NPC rogue or go use less traps in dungeons. I was even considering fixing exactly where their characters hale from, although they can obviously write their own bios, looks, names etc. Just require your players to have a background for their characters and work from there to get good plothooks, etc. This has the added benefit that you don't have to do it all yourself.:) So you have more time for worldbuilding or plot development. My experience is that players are more focused on what's going on in your world if the current plot line has something to do with their own written background than with a pre-written background. Good luck!
clarkvalentine 11-30-05, 09:03 AM	I hope that makes me sound less of a monster! :D Hey, I think you're doing fine. Guidance about what sort of characters are appropriate for a game and help with backstories that make the characters relevant to the setting is a mark of good GMing.
WayneTheGame 11-30-05, 09:06 AM	I agree that its a good idea for novice players, but I don't think you should necessarily dictate where the characters hail from (unless there's a specific reason for it such as wizard colleges or somesuch). What you may want to do is decide with the players to set your campaign in a certain country/kindgom/state/whatever and then have the players decide individually just how they ended up there (it'll also encourage character backgrounds).
coldreboot 11-30-05, 09:12 AM	Judging from the comments, it seems fairly split down the middle (ie. A GM preference), so I think I'll probably just talk to the lads and see how they feel about it. Thanks for all the input though guys, it's got the wheels turning *taps head* :plotting:
clarkvalentine 11-30-05, 09:19 AM	... so I think I'll probably just talk to the lads and see how they feel about it. Always the best idea. Good luck!
VerinBlod 11-30-05, 09:33 AM	Basically I just want the PCs to be a part of the campaign world from the beginning, and not as if they've just wandered in out of nowhere to start bashing monsters! LOL! Ok I had just misread your original post. After your further explanation I see that you'll give them enough freedom to get attached to their characters and background and still be able to guide new players. So I think a good job done! :D Have fun!
tarsia 11-30-05, 11:12 AM	Any advice, oh wise DMs? :D If they're new to DnD (or at least the d20 version), I don't really have a problem with helping to guide their race/class choices. Or at least limiting them to core stuff, just to keep it easier for everyone, and making sure the party's well balanced. You want to be nice about it of course, but usually players are open to such, especially when they're new to a system. :D I wouldn't worry too much about everyone choosing the same race - I don't think that happens too often, and even if it does, there's some oppertunity there as well for potential plots, and more reason why they all know each other. I know our groups (even with all of our experience) often sit around with each other and go "if you're going to play a rogue, and he's going to play a fighter then I'll be the xxx..." We usually don't want to gimp the party too much, so usually there's some sort of melee type, healer type and caster type. Our players often have a lot of character ideas, so they all shuffle through their various ideas until we have a workable combo for the campaign in question. Where they're all from, well, I'd double check with the group that everyone's okay with everyone coming from the same place. I doubt it'd be a problem, and gives a good reason why they're adventuring together / know each other. I know we've used the excuse of: "you all went to the same finishing school for new adventurers" to get a new party together.
olshanski_home 11-30-05, 11:17 AM	I'd let the party find their own balance. I've seen many parties do just fine without clerics: (bards/paladins with wands of Cure light wounds) or rogues with Use Magic Device. I've seen many parties do just fine without rogues: wizards take "knock". Barbarians bash chests, or take the damage for setting off traps. I've seen plenty of parties do fine without arcane casters as well... Things might not be 100% "optimum", but a party of good players will make do, as long as you are not also strict with thier access to magic items... if they need to purchase wands of cure light wounds, wands of knock, etcetera, they should be available somewhere without too much trouble.
Subway 11-30-05, 11:32 AM	I gave my players the guidelines for where they are currently. If they start in a certain town, and are from there origonally give them the ability to write their backgrounds, but give them the guidelines. I gave mine these.. 1) You are from a town named Ryda, you have been there since you were at least 8. Before that is up to you. 2) In this world magic is outlawed unless you are rich and powerful. Clerics are allowed only due to their devotion to their deity. 3) You may not switch to a magic class when you level up until you meet someone that can cast and teach you. 4) Anyone from this town is either Human or Half-Elf. If you are from somewhere else origonally and you live here and want to be a different race, please alter your history to include how people in this town don't look well upon you. Stuff like that. It still gives imagination, but keeps them in line with what you're going for.
Slider33 11-30-05, 11:32 AM	You can eliminate some of the uncertainty by consulting with your players beforehand. I still struggle with game balance, so I try to eliminate the element of surprise. Because, after all, who would want to show up on game day when it just so happens the particular combination of classes wipes the floor with your entire adventure? An example would be, if the PC's selected an unbalanced party (all melee or all magic) which would greatly affect the outcome of the game depending on what you have prepared. Granted, there is always this degree of flexibility the DM must have to adjust for some things, but balancing is a tricky job IMO. I wouldn't be too strict, but I would explicitly say what is allowed and not allowed. Don't allow material that you are unfamiliar with. But definitely let them choose what they want. That's the joy of being a player is to have that freedom regardless, that's something you shouldn't take away from them! That's part of the fun. Let them do what they want, be what they want. If you are worried about balance, have them pick their character classes way ahead of game time so at least you'll have some idea of what to expect.
Some_call_me_Tim 11-30-05, 11:44 AM	I'd let the party find their own balance. I've seen many parties do just fine without clerics: (bards/paladins with wands of Cure light wounds) or rogues with Use Magic Device. I've seen many parties do just fine without rogues: wizards take "knock". Barbarians bash chests, or take the damage for setting off traps. I've seen plenty of parties do fine without arcane casters as well... I would normally agree that players should be left up to their own devices and if they all want to play half-elf ninja/pirates fine, its their campaign too. Now, since this is a new group to Dungeons and Dragons, it might be wise to coerce them to pick a variety of races, classes, skills, feats, etc. to help them learn about all the different rules. Explain that you want them to try all the core classes, I probably wouldn't force them to play particular races or classes, merely advise them to do so. You might find that your players are willing to go along with idea without too much fuss. As for mucking with backgrounds, I tend to avoid that as well, as what you want to do with campaign might not fit with their character concept. Again ask them to help you incorporate their characters in the campaign. For example, tell the rogue you would like for his character to be from XYZ thieves guild. If he doesn't want to be, fine, but now he has to create the thieves guild he is a member of or alternately explain why he refuses to join XYZ thieves guild. Either way you have created a hook that puts him up against them. Another method is to ask for detailed background stories and tell your players that anything not fleshed out is fair game for the DM to build on. If he doesn't want his kid sister kidnapped he better write he doesn't have a kid sister or that his kid sister is a talented sorceress.
High Octane 11-30-05, 12:09 PM	I find the best idea is not to limit certain classes or races, but to limit what material a player can get them from. For a first campaign, its more than okay to say "Core only", its suggested. I, personally, am a lot more strict on limiting races than classes, but thats my preferance. 99% of all character concepts can be done using the base classes. Unless you are running an evil campaign (Which I REALLY dont suggest for a first time.) I dont mind class mixing as much, because it is pretty much in character to do so. A player playing a fighter might take 2 levels of rogue to get evasion. That may be called metagaming by some, but it makes sense to me that a fighter would want to study how a rogue avoids spell damage completly. However, a character doesnt CHOOSE race, so it gets me mad when people add bunches of templates for max-minning reasons. But thats my opinion, feel free to disagree and be wrong.
Milandros 11-30-05, 04:22 PM	This is a situation where either extreme is wrong. 1st extreme: "Ok, so you're playing an evil assassin who openly sacrifices babies to Nerull... and Bob is playing a Paladin of the Order of the Silver Flame.... Jim is playing a Harper Rogue from Shadowdale... and Mary is playing a Kender rogue from Solamnia. Hmn..." The game breaks into a fight 30 minutes later when the paladin uses detect evil for the first time, while the Harper player wants Elminster to be available in Eberron. 2nd extreme: "OK, you're going to play a fighter. These are his stats, his name is Bob, and this is his list of feats, skills and equipment. First thing you'll do when we start playing is go to the mercenary's guild, take the first job they offer you, then run away when you get ambushed. OK?" I recommend a tequnique my group almost always uses, because it's basically brilliant and produces memorable characters who often end up with much of the plot interacting with their backstory. Each player sits down with/has an email conversation with the DM when they create their character for the first time. They basically do it together. The player has all the creative input; the DM helps them tailor it to his campaign world. So when the player wants to create a mage, the DM will explain that in this world mages all belong to a particular order, etc etc. The DM can also make suggestions; for example "The party so far is fairly heavy with spellcasters - you can add another one if you like, but a more melee oriented character would give you a chance to do things the others can't". He can make sure that alignments are compatible. And because he helps the player tailor his backstory into the world, they feel a good connection to that world. Places they visit are written into their story as opposed to "I come from a small village somewhere". People in their backstory turn up as NPCs. Sometimes the DM can gently nudge things enough so that the same NPC is in several players' backstories. This technique really works. We've managed to run an evil game without a single in-party killing, in spite of the characters being truly vile, because the backgrounds intersect just enough that they all see the advantage in staying as one party. The most recent campaign we started had character traits and what is obviously going to be some long-running interaction and in-jokes set up in the first two sessions - and all the players said afterwards, in one form or another, what a great group of characters they had. The solution to 90% of the questions on this board is "talk about it".
metamind 11-30-05, 04:26 PM	In my opinion, a dm is GOD. the pcs must obey him or face his wrath. But, to avoid conflict, loosen your iron grip a little, so that your players can have fun. MOST IMPORTANT: LET THEM HAVE A GOOD TIME! otherwise, they might get upset and you shall loose friends.
metamind 11-30-05, 04:27 PM	Split pcs who dont get along up. works for me! :D
revnk 11-30-05, 04:52 PM	My own opinion, for whatever it's worth, is: Restricting the campaign to certain classes (e.g. core-only) is fine, but let players know in advance; Within those bounds, the only reason to mandate that players choose specific classes is if it's part of the campaign setting: a campaign where all players start out as members of a wizard family or as members of a wandering tribe of druids and rangers might be fine so long as players are interested in going along with that conceit. A campaign where no character may take a magical class at first level (or ever) might make a lot of sense in a certain setting. If players are willing to play in it. Requiring that players pick "one of each" for some perceived party "balance," however, is just wrong. I personally feel that a DM has some responsibility to make sure a "weird" party can survive: if the party consists entirely of bards, the DM should write adventures for that kind of party. If the party lacks healers, the DM should make sure there are chances to get potions. Of course, the party can also take steps to help themselves (e.g. by taking a level of cleric or fighter or rogue to balance things out). There is nothing wrong with setting up the world so that certain classes or races are associated with certain regions, factions, etc. If all barbarians come from the Frozen Realm of Nordia, then a PC who wants a barbarian needs to make that part of his backstory. If the only way for a player in your campaign to become a sorceror is to have at least one sorceror parent and tutelege at Hogwarts, simply explain that to the players when talking to them about their class options. If performance arts are banned in the Realm of Dismalia, the DM is under no obligation to rewrite his universe so that a player can play a Dismalian bard (although a DM should at least consider allowing a player with a really good backstory for such a character to make it work if it can work in the campaign. The same principles apply to races: if elves only live in forests, so be it. If elves never adventure and therefore are never PCs in your campaign, alright then. But "one elf per party" is just arbitrary. A DM should run a world that's fun for him or herself, too. Which means a DM sometimes needs to draw the lines. But that's not incompatible with player input, and a DM without players is nothing. Players should not expect unfettered choice, but a DM should not expect to be overly restrictive without players' consent. It's a partnership, a balance. Anyway, that's my pair of coppers. Good luck!
Milandros 11-30-05, 04:57 PM	I agree completely with revnk - and if you take his approach and merge it with the idea of sitting down with each player so he can get your campaign world input into his character design, you'll get a great set of PCs.
coldreboot 11-30-05, 05:07 PM	Hi guys, thanks again for all your thoughts! I think Malandros is coming at it the way I'm planning to. I may of come off a bit more forceful in my initial posts, probably because I'm describing to you my end game and what I'd want ideally from the players. But how Malandros describes it is probably how it's going to be in reality. In my campaign world there are some core differences anyway, which are going to make things more interesting. For instance, halflings do not exist in my 'Homebrew'. They are a long extinct race. Instead, they are replaced with Goblins which, essentially are Halflings in habits and rules in my world. They are not so savage (in most parts of the world)as they are traditionally and live amongst humans and elves in cities. Also Bards are not a core class choice. I know some people may not agree, but I've never liked the class and thought it a rather silly premise for an adventurer. But that's a debate for another thread I think :) As part of the campaign, I'm going to start a website for it and update it with the parties exploites and adventures across the realm, and by proxy end up cataloguing and documenting the campaign world. Hopefully, by the end of the run there will be a detailed campaign world for any D&D fans to use. At least, that's my hope! :dancin:
glennhefley 11-30-05, 06:37 PM	I think most of the thoughts expressed so far are good guidelines. As a DM, however, I don't change the world to meet the party. I try to develop a balanced game. I try to find out which PC's will be playing on game day, so that I have a CR to work with as I develop the trails and tribulations, but I know from experience, PC's change at the last minute, Players can't show up.. life happens. So I make a balance "game" and from there, the PC's choose how to play it. I'm very into history and role-play, and base a great deal of XP on the role-play of the Players with their PC's. Role-play is the game, as far as I'm concerned. If you don't know the name of your father, then you better be an orphan. I really like the Hero Builders book and the exercises they have in there.
Bruunwald 11-30-05, 07:53 PM	You're never going to know the dynamic of the group until you play with them. So you can rest assured, no matter how strict or loose you are, you're going to have some bumps, maybe some waves, and a learning curve while you get to know each other. Are you being too strict? I don't think any of us can say, because we don't really know firsthand the nature of your players and of the group. You definitely want to strike a balance, in any case, between freedom enough that the players feel satisfied and structured enough that it does not all devolve into something you can't handle that becomes a big waste of time to you. In my case, I am now pretty strict, but can be, since after two very long campaigns with many of the same players (starting a new one in January myself), we all know how out of hand they can get when given even a little leeway. How well do they know it? I imposed the strictest PC generation guides I have yet and not only got no complaints, but a bunch of "Great! Thanks! Looking forward to it," without a trace of sarcasm. Even total powergaming munchkins can learn the benefits of cooperation, it seems.
Mandarbgrim 11-30-05, 08:13 PM	To me..there doesn't seem anything wrong with guiding newer players to pick a balanced party. Either: 1. They have strong opinions about what they want to play. Then they can play it, and have first pick. 2. If they don't have strong opinions then I am going to guide them to the best choice for them, my campaign, and the party.
prawn 12-01-05, 12:15 PM	Here is something I am doing in my current game that is working out great. I gave each beginning player two contacts, a family member and a secret. Here are some examples Contact: Armsmaster Sieger is one of the most respected trainers of men in all of Everlund. His training fees are high, and all the nobles send their children to him for formation. His son Fran fell into the moat last year, and only you dived in to try to save him. Fran was screaming about the man-eating eels and splashing about so much that you both almost drowned before you were able to climb out. Seiger cried and hugged you, promising to help you if ever he could return the favor. Family: Your father was once a great warrior until he lost his leg at the battle of the Uplands. Now he makes his living by selling carvings in the market. You support him as best you can, and put up with his "wisdom" Secret Your older sister died when you were seven and you lived in a small village near the city. Your parents told you that she had been attacked by an animal in the woods. You buried her, but that night she came and tapped at your window. You opened the window, and there she was. Her skin was all white, and her burial shroud was muddy from the grave. She asked you to come out, but you refused and slammed the window. A few days later strange things started happening in your village and you moved to the city. The players are free to ignore these things (so I know that guy? so what?), or can incorporate them fully into their backgrounds. For example, I didn't say the father was living with the PC, but he could be if the PC decides it. I don't think it is too controlling to say a PC has a father somehere. But think of the plot hooks that are possible now! Family: The dad overhears something at the market. The dad is kidnapped. An old enemy of the dad comes to town. Contact: Armsmaster Seiger asks the PC to tutor his Son Armsmaster Seiger asks the PC to guard his family while he is away. Secret THe PC becomes an undead slayer The PC is interested in necromancy There are attacks going on in the PCs village and the PC thinks it is his sister. Giving these bits of background really help the people feel connected to the setting. Some of my players ran with it and their contacts or family or secrest are now major parts of the campaign story. Others ignored it and it only comes up once in a while. Hope this helps Prawn
grandaustino 12-01-05, 02:23 PM	It is very hard for us to make a juidgement on this for you, because the answer depends entirely on the nature of your players. If they are willing to go along with your rules and it does not interfere with their enjoyment of the game thats great. If the rules do interfere with their enjoyment then you are being too strict. I think that if you discuss your thoughts with the players and let them make that decision that is the best way to go.
Tiruvel 12-01-05, 02:51 PM	The player has all the creative input; the DM helps them tailor it to his campaign world. So when the player wants to create a mage, the DM will explain that in this world mages all belong to a particular order, etc etc.¨ That's how I do it. :)
Skyscraper 12-01-05, 03:31 PM	I think you appear to be ready to listen to your players and discuss things with them, so you shouldn't have any real problems in the end. Here are a few pointers on how i feel about restricting choices for players: 1) as few restrictions as possible - players like to chose, and that's not only normal, it's one of the strong points of the game. 2) i do non-evil campaigns. Evil campaigns are fine, i'm just not going to be the DM in one of them. Thus, PC personality (and consequently alignment) must be non-evil only. 3) PC classes can be any core classes found in the PHB - no prestige classes. What they don't know is that some prestige classes do exist in my world, but the PCs need to find the groups that can show them how to become member of XYZ organization to benefit from the PrC. 4) PC class distribution can be anything the players want, but i encourage diversity. In the case of the present campaign i run (5 players initially, now down to 4), there is no wizard and the only arcane caster is a level 3 barbarian/level 3 sorcerer. They have little fire power as far as spells are concerned. They're doing fine nonetheless. I would not have chosen this myself, but then again, class choice for the players is of the utmost importance, so i feel like letting them chose what they wish in that respect is super important. If you feel that a rogue would be very important, just tell them that at the outset. "No need to chose a rogue, but one would be very helpful". I'll bet you'll have at least two players wanting to play a rogue, since they'll know they'll be useful and consequently active PCs. 5) background stories: i ask the players to write up what they want. If something doesn't fit, i'll go back to the player and discuss it with him or her. However, i will do my very best to fit the player's story into my campaign. It's not really that hard. Some players might want to have been introduced to magic through an old hermit wizard... this should be easy instead of the school. If the player doesn't mention where he learned magic, you can simply add that info to his background story. You indicate in your post that there will "only" be 4-6 players. This number is quite normal in my opinion. In fact, my experience is that more than 5 players in addition to the DM, is very hard to do. Players that are not active at any given time will often start some non-related discussions, and it's hard to keep everyone concentrated on the game. Have fun, Sky
rbrt_Spade 12-01-05, 04:48 PM	Personally I would say just let them use the phb races & classes. Personaly I think that this makes the most balanced parties(except psionics which I allow). Just guide them threw it. Work with the players with tailoring the party together to have a fun time. By the way guys, where in the dmg does it say that the standard party is a rogue,fighter,cleric, and wizard?
Skyscraper 12-01-05, 05:10 PM	I gave my players the guidelines for where they are currently. If they start in a certain town, and are from there origonally give them the ability to write their backgrounds, but give them the guidelines. I gave mine these.. 1) You are from a town named Ryda, you have been there since you were at least 8. Before that is up to you. Wow, this will allow them all the flexibility they want for kindergarden ;)
revnk 12-01-05, 05:17 PM	Wow, this will allow them all the flexibility they want for kindergarden ;) Hey, if they were George R.R. Martin characters, they'd all be at least fifth level by that age. :D
Cathon 12-01-05, 05:31 PM	In general, the PCs should be creating the characters, the DM should be giving them guidelines. Give some background about the world, and the types of people who live in it. Give some information about the various races within the world. Let them know what classes are acceptable and which aren't, which items are acceptable and which aren't, etc. For beginners, you should probably help them with character creation. Suggest that the party be balanced, but don't force anyone into a class they don't want. Try to steer them away from just playing an anime character they like, but if they mention such things, let them know about what character classes are the closest, and what flavor they might have in your world. Basically, you want their imagination caught up by a character that can exist in your world. A DM can certainly be too strict, but people can also have a lot of fun under restrictions too. If characters can be anything from anywhere then there isn't much sense of belonging to the world they are in. If you restrict them too much, they don't feel a sense of ownership of their character.
Xykon 12-02-05, 05:10 AM	I was thinking of making a list of classes and saying that each player can choose one each (only from the list) and the same with race (only from a list), to make sure the party is balanced with enough variety. Its pretty harsh that one. I would say this is ideal for introducing players to DnD -- although you may need experienced players to take the helm of spellcasters, but if your players are experienced enough, dunno... it could work both ways. I mean if you set them good enough to attract the interest of the particular player then ok... But if you gave a diviner with evocation left out, and the player likes flashy fireworks... might not take it. Dunno. You have to find the right personality to match with your custom built characters. If you're going to be restrictive, then why not go: 1. Pure PHB Races/classes, but no paladin (munchkin magnet), monks (hardly anybody gets this right) and no Druid (needs really, really experienced players to play it right). And no prestige class. You can lift the paladin / monk / druid restrictions if you know they are experienced. 2. PHB equipment only. 3. Player are to access PHB only. For wizards, give me a photocopy of the monster lists in their summon lists. Any advice, oh wise DMs? :D Hardly wise, although you'll be hard pressed to find survivors to tell you that :D
Skyscraper 12-02-05, 10:53 AM	Hey, if they were George R.R. Martin characters, they'd all be at least fifth level by that age. :D Heh... i'm actually reading that right now, i'm up to 75% in book one. And i see what you mean :) Sky
revnk 12-02-05, 11:56 AM	Heh... i'm actually reading that right now, i'm up to 75% in book one. And i see what you mean :) Sky I'm about that far along in Book IV (A Feast For Crows). It's a great series, but dark; I hope you're braced for some rough waters ahead. Enjoy!