Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheWerg 11-11-06, 02:04 AM	Many of you saw the "Can an elf weild a greatsword?" thread. Some despised it, some loved it. Others hacked it into tiny pieces with spamming. However, this is merely the basis for this thread, and not the prequel. The previous thread proposed a dumb question with an obvious answer: Can an elf wield a greatsword? Ruleswise, of course they can. They're medium, they may be slighter of build but they can still wield it. However, many people (albeit often jokingly) said that an elf could not wield a greatsword. While it was great fun to insult the wussiness of elves, it is an interesting concept: Should races be limited in weapon selection? Is a dwarf so unlikely to wield a rapier that he should not be allowed to? This is a thread to discuss your opinions on this matter, and possibly present ideas on it. I would like to add that I have not implemented this system, nor do I intend to, as I tend to have trouble keeping rules balanced with house rules. I do, however, know that some people here are very good at this and could likely devise a balanced system (and perhaps use this as a way to balance the "broken" races of half-elf and half-orc). R.I.P Can an elf weild a greatsword :weep:
Mrloki 11-11-06, 02:16 AM	Dwarfs are kinda fat and stubby, so no, no they can not use a rapier. Plain and simple! Now a greatsword, thats a real dwarf weapon, can't go wrong there, no little handle thing to get you knubs caught in. Although there is the concept that its harder to disarm a rapier from a dwarfs hand. My ruling goes to a confirmed maybe!
Feeb 11-11-06, 02:18 AM	A rapier is a far, far superior to a greatsword when engaged in melee in the average mine, tunnel or enclosed underground habitat, ergo a dwarf can wield a rapier.
TheWerg 11-11-06, 02:20 AM	Any rules responses here? If you don't know, the last thread got closed because it went too off-topic, so I want real responses here. What would you do if you were to limit what weapons each race can use? Is it a phenomenally bad idea? These are the things I want to know.
BlinkDOGwrangler 11-11-06, 02:34 AM	First, this is funny. You're a LG Paladin with s-15, d-17, c-16, i-17, w-16, ch-15. I'm a LG Paladin with s-15, d-16, c-17, i-16, w-16, ch-17. Secondly, a Dwarf would never (90%) be caught c a wussy weapon like that. You can't hack, slash, or even crush anything c it. Techniqually, yes, a Dwarf can weild a rapier. However, one his buddies found out, he would be the laughing stock of the entire clan. Like driving a VW Bug or "do'in" a 300lb chick. Might be fun to ride, but your friends can't find out. Don't belive me? How many straight dudes drive VW Bugs? Slim to none I bet. Any other thoughts or opinions out there?
Warlord_Draco 11-11-06, 02:50 AM	why do people make these topics.... its a weapon a medium creature can use.... a dwarf can use a rapier an elf can use a great sword http://www.suikosource.com/chars/list/?char_id=789 thats pretty much an elf using a great sword... both weapons would be kinda strange for that race to use... but since when did pcs have to be total sterotypes?
TheWerg 11-11-06, 02:53 AM	why do people make these topics.... its a weapon a medium creature can use.... a dwarf can use a rapier an elf can use a great sword http://www.suikosource.com/chars/list/?char_id=789 thats pretty much an elf using a great sword... both weapons would be kinda strange for that race to use... but since when did pcs have to be total sterotypes? I am WELL AWARE that they can use them; if you read my original post thoroughly, you would know this. The previous thread proposed a dumb question with an obvious answer: Can an elf wield a greatsword? Ruleswise, of course they can. I was proposing a variant which would limit the weapons each race can use and which could be used to balance the races.
Salla 11-11-06, 07:09 AM	I am WELL AWARE that they can use them; if you read my original post thoroughly, you would know this. I was proposing a variant which would limit the weapons each race can use and which could be used to balance the races. It seems like a really silly rule. You would basically be forcing the characters to be stereotypes, if not outright caricatures. There's no reason why a dwarf can't wield a rapier or an elf can't wield a greatsword if they want ... odds are, that's a Dwarven Rogue and and Elven Barbarian, since those are about the best weapons available for those particular roles IMHO. They have the requisite number of hands, therefore can use the weapon. It would be as nonsensical and arbitrary as 2e's racial class limitations, and I'd think few people would play in such a game.
TessarrianDM 11-11-06, 07:48 AM	I am WELL AWARE that they can use them; if you read my original post thoroughly, you would know this. I was proposing a variant which would limit the weapons each race can use and which could be used to balance the races. The basis is already there: certain races get either free martial weapon proficiencies or the ability to treat specific exotic weapons as martial weapons. Simply use and/or expand those lists. I would not, however, limit the weapons a PC could use based on race; instead, restrict the list of weapons that each race is considered to be proficient in. You could even say that all other weapons not on the racial proficiency list would be exotic, requiring the appropriate feat. I personally do not consider the races "unbalanced"; my experience has shown the players gravitating towards single class humans, if anything.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-11-06, 09:15 AM	thats pretty much an elf using a great sword... That's an Elf using a short sword. I think Dwarves can wield rapiers, but they won't. They won't so bad they have a supernatural and physical aversion to them. If you put a rapier in a dwarf's hands, he'll throw it a high speeds towards something that moves, killing it.
SunTzuWarmaster 11-11-06, 09:53 AM	Eh, just roleplay it. Other elves think the greatsword-using elf is foolish for offsetting his naturally higher maneuverability (and have the natural elven arrogance towards him). If Grog's friends catch him weilding a rapier, they laugh at him. If in combat, the first thing they do is try to sunder it (to prove that greatswords are better). Weapon choice adds RP to a character, an not letting a character pick a weapon that he can otherwise use (read: swing and hit) is just pidgeon-holing them into a further stereotype (ie. dwarves use hammers and axes despite the fact that the unusual one may weild a greatsword or 2 daggers).
Sim_antix 11-11-06, 10:18 AM	When designing your campaign take into account the regional and racial tendencies for weapons and armor. Thats not to say that no dwarf would ever wield a rapier, just that you will not find any weaponsmiths that make rapiers in the dwarven homelands. Perhaps a PC Dwarf who travels outside of their realm will become a rogue and use a rapier but the chances of him aquiring one while in dwarven lands are virtually nil. I use this in my campaign. Each region and race has specific weapons and armor available to them depending on the time period. It take some time to go through all the races and weapons and decide who has what and when but I like it because it adds depth and realism. My players like it too.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-11-06, 10:25 AM	Other elves think the greatsword-using elf is foolish for offsetting his naturally higher maneuverability (and have the natural elven arrogance towards him). Elves die if they touch greatswords.
fatal error 11-11-06, 11:17 AM	Well, clearly the dwarves are already in the midst of a contradiction in weapons. They favor axes (as shown by their free proficiency with a bastard axe named after their race, which in turn raises question of dwarven geneology. . .), but they live in tunnels. These two things are generally incompatible. If they fight in tunnels, they should want thrusting weapons, allowing them to still be effective in narrow spaces. Instead they like big swinging weapons that would take significant space to use. Some say axes are there because dwarves are craftsmen, but in that case D&D dwarves would be more inclined to have hammers, picks, and chisels as weapons than axes. This is because their timbercutting or woodcrafts are often forgotten in favor of mining and smithing. Now, if dwarves are actually getting exotic weapons as martial, rather than martials as simples (like elves get for longsword, rapier, shortbow and longbow), then it clearly means dwarves rely on a professional warrior caste (warrior or fighter lvl. 1). Where as the elves rely on militias. With this being true, it means the dwarves should really be focusing on the most efficient weapon for their environment, since the warriors wouldn't be the main craftsmen, and thus shouldn't be attached to axes, or the aforementioned more logical picks, hammers and chisels. Thus, the dwarves should most deffinitely be focusing on thrusting weapons as they are the most efficient. So, dwarves should get exotic weapon proficiency with some sorts of thrusting weapons, maybe dwarven pikes (for long hallways) and dwarven gladii (plural gladius?) (for when the enemy closes, they'd be 1d8 weapons usable in grapples). As for rapiers, well, I'm outta time.
johnkretzer 11-11-06, 01:08 PM	um.... That shouldn't be a mechanic that say dwarves can't use rapiers(or anyonther "sissy" weapons). If you want to put a social stigma on it I can see that. But remeber just because your culture is against it doesn't mean it is impossible for you to learn it. Unless you want to make weapon prof. and armor prof a extension of race instead of class. That might be more interesting....
TheWerg 11-11-06, 01:34 PM	You know, "limitations" isn't limited (no pun intended) to just the banning of weapons. There are plenty of other things you can do to "limit" weapons to certain races. The rough, callous hands and forthright fighting style of dwarves makes them ill-suited to wield a rapier, and they suffer a permanent -2 penalty to attacks made with rapiers. Elves are not trained in the use of greatswords, and must take Martial Weapon Proficiency (greatsword) in order to be proficient with them, regardless of what proficiencies are granted to them by classes. You don't have to necessarily ban them, but restricting them in some way might help balance the races a bit.
MareltEkiran 11-11-06, 04:59 PM	Well, I've always been in favour of nerfing the dwarf a bit by giving him a -2 Dexterity instead of a -2 Charisma (or both penalties). That would take away the main reason why they would wield a rapier... Sure, they can, but it's going to be quite a sub-optimal choice... P.S. If you look through the character database of the Suikoden series long enough, you'll pretty much come across every possible and impossible weapon ever thought of in history. It's a great source to look if you want to see how people would look with certain weapons.
LCD2YOU 11-11-06, 05:21 PM	Why not? As fatal error pointed out so eloquently, in tunnels, thrusting weapons should be their staple. Also, hammers and picks not axes are likewise better. The "point", pun intended, about Axes vs a good thrusting weapon in a confined space tends to make me think that dwarves might well have something very much like a rapier for close in combat in small places. Any dwarven machismo over axes vs rapier like weapons will go away when two groups of dwarves get ambushed in a confined space. The ones that lived, the ones with the thrusting weapons get to go home and comfort the widows and sisters of the dead. I think that a dwarven weapon like a rapier, not as thin as a rapier but thicker and sturdier but for combat purposes the same weapon is a good idea.
Always-Late 11-11-06, 05:22 PM	Spears? Lances? Halfspears?
BadCatMan 11-11-06, 09:14 PM	Actually, a recommended stance for wielding hammers and axes is a wide, sturdy stance, due to the top-heavy nature of the weapon. Which is exactly what Dwarves have, a natural efficiency with hammers, axes, urgroshes, waraxes and greataxes. Their skinnier Duergar cousins aren't so sturdy, and hence lack automatic proficiency with urgroshes and waraxes. And the Dwarf with the rapier may get laughed at by his comrades, until he goes all Zorro-thor on their asses and snick-snick-snicks off their beards. (There was a rapier-wielding Dwarf pirate in the FR: Realms of the Dragons anthology.)
Sergikins 11-11-06, 10:08 PM	this does raise a good question. why axes? personally, i always imagine dwarves that are underground to wield spears and pikes. but above ground.... why not axes? going on the nature of wielding an axe, i prefer them to swords when i mock fight, because they are big, hefty, and simple to block with. they are also more compact than swords and deal more damge to objects. if i had to survive in the wild, I'd take an axe over a sword any day of the week, simply because an axe is more versitile. try chopping down a tree with a sword. dwarves, IMO, are the epitome of efficieny - art work in their society in the very structures. where as an elf might paint a picture and call it art, a dwarf would engrave something in a wall or a hoe or something useful and call that art. why should a dwarf carry around an axe for utility and a sword for fighting when an axe will clearly accomplish both purposes mechanically, i think this is an intresting idea that needs development. however, I'd be inclined to say that even though a race might not be proficent with a martial weapon, if a class says proficeny with all martial weapons, it should still count towards fufilling prereqs for feats and prestige classes, even though they technically don't.
Krulla 11-11-06, 10:12 PM	This thread is way too serious and needs more racism. Preferably against elves.
Reversefigure4 11-11-06, 10:26 PM	I was proposing a variant which would limit the weapons each race can use and which could be used to balance the races. When considering a variant rule, follow the most important credo: Will this rule make the game more fun? Personally, I don't see how. Mechanically, there's no real reason to do this. If you want to 'balance' the races with weapons, it would be simplier to make restricted weapons that the weaker races get proficiency with (say, an Orcish Warspike, which requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency which half-orcs get for free). Further, imposing these rules would seem to make the game less fun, not more. If I want to play a dwarf who has grown up in a multi-cultural village next door to Pierre The Dashing, famed rapier master, why should I be restricted from using a rapier just because I'm a dwarf? There's no flavour or logic reason for it: Dwarves aren't physically incapable of weilding the weapon. Most dwarves won't - it's not a usual dwarf weapon - but why restrict any PC who wants to? What benefit will be derived from it? That's the real question.
Wymarc 11-11-06, 10:29 PM	I've seen large men use a fencing foil to great effect. A rapier is slightly wider and longer than that, so I would have to say sure, why not?
Salla 11-11-06, 10:30 PM	When considering a variant rule, follow the most important credo: Will this rule make the game more fun? Personally, I don't see how. Mechanically, there's no real reason to do this. If you want to 'balance' the races with weapons, it would be simplier to make restricted weapons that the weaker races get proficiency with (say, an Orcish Warspike, which requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency which half-orcs get for free). Further, imposing these rules would seem to make the game less fun, not more. If I want to play a dwarf who has grown up in a multi-cultural village next door to Pierre The Dashing, famed rapier master, why should I be restricted from using a rapier just because I'm a dwarf? There's no flavour or logic reason for it: Dwarves aren't physically incapable of weilding the weapon. Most dwarves won't - it's not a usual dwarf weapon - but why restrict any PC who wants to? What benefit will be derived from it? That's the real question. For the win.
JasonOrlandoHawk 11-11-06, 10:43 PM	First and Foremost: Read Reversefigure4's post. Very, very important points... However, if you did create such a system, I would personally use the Weapon Group Feats variant found in Unearthed Arcana, and limit which Groups you could select at level 1 based on race/region. However, at later levels, if they took the time to train with the weapon, they could easily learn to use it, and take the appropriate feat. (They would have to overcome social stigma, and other such problems, but are not outright refused the right to use certain weapons.)
LCD2YOU 11-11-06, 11:07 PM	Fun? Many people have differing ideas of fun. Some like to have haut culture and play DnD as a kind of "Dukes and Duchies". Others, hopefully over 21 only, like to play "Drunk and Disorderly". Still others like to play hack 'n slash "Disembowel and Dismember". Sometimes telling a player that the Dwarf/Elf/etc., race they want to play has definite idiosynchracies that they may not normally think of at first, really adds in a way that sounds "anti-fun" at first. If you tell a player that the dwarven subrace they want to play, DM differences added, uses hot pink as a way to display their macho side (did that with a tribe of orcs) it can and will add to variety of cultural ideas without the need to have 35,624 elf sub-races. I mean I have 3 types of Elves in my game, High, Grey and Drow. In any case the "High Elves of Tolore" will never be confused witht the "Woodland (High) Elves of of the Valley". They look alike but their cultures are distinct. If there were books out detailing 10 "sub-species" of humans, I think someone might get in a lot of trouble for "racism". There is a simple way of doing this. If the DM already has different Dwarven, Elven or whatever enclaves, just trade out the "default specific weapon bonus", if any, for another weapon. Personally, I keep as far away from UA as possible. The choice for weapon should make a lot of sense from where the enclave is and what they deal with. If there are a lot of creatures with edged weapon immunities that attack them, giving them bonuses in short or longswords makes no sense. If the player wants to "create" their own <insert race here> enclave with the basic racial type and the idea is logical (I say logical as if the weapon choose make the race under or over-powered that is an issue) let them. Fun is relative.
Majick 11-12-06, 01:02 AM	The problem is that everyone is taking it as if every elf and every dwarf that has ever lived is exactly the same, raised in the same situation, taught the same things, by the same sorts of teacher, which is just blatently wrong. Yes, when you play a elf you get the same racial statistics as the next elf (unless your a crazy sub-race) but do you honestly believe all elves were raised the same? What about the elf who had his home burnt to the ground, parents slaughterer and was then adopted by humans? Those humans might favour heavy armor and a strong sword arm over anything else, and shun dexterous movement in combat... so what do you think the elf would do in that situation? buck the crowd? fight his family? Not everyone is as strong willed and not everyone, not even an elf, would KNOW what he was best at, he'd probably just go with the flow. Also, what's wrong with a dwarf using a rapier? Looking at pictures (and i mean well drawn pictures such as the ones in the beginning of the PHB) there hands don't look particularly unweildy, hence they don't get any negatives to using the weapon, a dwarf may not WANT TO use the weapon, but if he was born on the harsh streets of a massive and uncaring city as a street rat, where speed and a quick hand were more necassary than a strong sword arm, what do you honestly think he would prefer? A cumbersome greatsword or something he could whip out and thrust away quickly in close quaters? This could also be used in the argument of halfling should not be aloud to use two-handed weapon because there too small, but then again, if any race is trained to use a specific weapon set, or even if there not in some cases, then they can use the freakin weapon if they want to, because thats what the INDIVIDUAL user obviously wants wants. Lastly, a point of physiology... has no one ever played an elf with *****ing high strength and con but stuff all dex? ever played a dwarf with huge dex and charisma but low con and strength? don't you think these issues would come into account as well?
teenageghostcouncil 11-12-06, 01:14 AM	I think I read a book once with a swashbuckling dwarf
Always-Late 11-12-06, 01:16 AM	The thing about racial modifiers is that they're not just racial modifiers. Theoretically, the average (powerful) Dwarf is 12, 12, 14, 12, 12, 10. The average (powerful) Elf is 12, 14, 10, 12, 12, 12. These aren't very different at all. However, people who play elves usually put their highest stats in Dex and usually don't focus on the Constitution. Dwarf players usually max the Str and the Con since many of them prepare to tank. Players go, "I've got this racial modifier. Lets put it to some use!" If you examine the "average" elf and the "average" dwarf, I'd say that youo'd probably come out with a four to six point difference in the Dex and maybe three to five in the Con. Player character's stats are far more diverse than racial modifier would suggest. And I think it's supposed to be that way, that elves "on average' have a dex considerably higher than that of the average dwarf. But you can't give +4 Dex modifiers or +4 Con modifiers without mucking up the game. poewrful Dra(no w) Ths thier heighst Consittution youo'd int moi woul
fatal error 11-12-06, 01:22 AM	This could also be used in the argument of halfling should not be aloud to use two-handed weapon because there too small, That doesn't make any sense at all. They use smaller two-handed weapons. Of course they're not using a human's greatsword, that really is impossible! (barring feats) Back onto dwarves and rapiers: As I was saying, dwarves should prefer thrusting weapons, both reach and close-quarters ones. Thus, the rapier would be developed at some point. Furthermore, there isn't really anything to suggest dwarves would find less use in rapiers than humans, as they have the same distribution of dexterity scores, and thus supposedly equal amount of individuals utilizing weapon finesse. Although I admit, the general slant of dwarven culture towards sturdy and tought things would make a rapier seem a bit out of place. As for a dwarf's natural stance and stability making axes more favorable; I would think large spears and reach weapons would benefit from such wide stances as well. In conclusion, I would say there should be a significant minority of dwarves using weapon finesse with rapiers and tower shields.
Sim_antix 11-12-06, 01:52 AM	I think that it is perfectly allowable to limit what weapons a race has access to, at least while they are in the homelands.
Rowan_Whispercloak 11-12-06, 02:10 AM	Yes a dwarf can wield a rapier, but will be riddiculed by other dwarves for using an "elf's toothpick" into battle.
YamiSouru 11-12-06, 03:12 AM	Id say go for it. They can weild rapiers just as easy as axes. However the dwarves who would commonly defend cities and such are going to want to benefit from the vast amounts of ore dug up by their miners and are thus going to wear heavier armor for more protection, and to be honest a axe makes more sense with heavy armor then a rapier. Now true a dwarves friends might laugh at him for useing such a weapon makeing him sort of a outcast..but then arnt most dwarven adventurers outcasts anyway?
JulesCARV 11-12-06, 03:39 AM	There's no way some snobby, millionaire Kundarak banker who hosts fancy soirées at his mansion in the Mror Holds to network with rich venture capitalists is going to lug a big battle axe around. Much better to keep a fashionable rapier at your side as a status symbol, unless you're trying to collect debts and be intimidating or something.
LCD2YOU 11-12-06, 08:33 AM	Ok Always-Late, What does this mean? poewrful Dra(no w) Ths thier heighst Consittution youo'd int moi woul Expiring minds want to know.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-12-06, 09:10 AM	Guys, less discussion, more humor.
LCD2YOU 11-12-06, 09:47 AM	Guys, less discussion, more humor.Otay: All Dwarves secretly love and lust after Elves. It is the Elves' refusal to take the dwarves seriously as lovers that has caused the rift between the two races. All Elves love themselves more than any other thing in the multiverse.
teenageghostcouncil 11-12-06, 11:32 AM	Otay: All Dwarves secretly love and lust after Elves. It is the Elves' refusal to take the dwarves seriously as lovers that has caused the rift between the two races. All Elves love themselves more than any other thing in the multiverse. how could a dwarf love such a sissy/wussy being??
Always-Late 11-12-06, 11:52 AM	poewrful Dra(no w) Ths thier heighst Consittution youo'd int moi woulI retain all my typoes for further notice. See sig. top ttoies fire further(?) (tag added after)
Mrloki 11-12-06, 12:20 PM	Dwarfs have the urgrosh, which is a spear and an axe! so they can fend off critters in small passages and loop off their heads with the axe given a chance! And the real reason why dwarfs and elfs don't like each other is hair envy! like, elves testies never drop so they can't grow facial hair, and they get mad cause those dwarves over there, came out of their mothers womb with a small beard! Also elves are hatched from eggs!
teenageghostcouncil 11-12-06, 01:36 PM	Dwarfs have the urgrosh, which is a spear and an axe! so they can fend off critters in small passages and loop off their heads with the axe given a chance! And the real reason why dwarfs and elfs don't like each other is hair envy! like, elves testies never drop so they can't grow facial hair, and they get mad cause those dwarves over there, came out of their mothers womb with a small beard! Also elves are hatched from eggs! who isn't jealous of dwarves hair?
LCD2YOU 11-12-06, 02:35 PM	how could a dwarf love such a sissy/wussy being??It brings out the bad boy in them. Especially for dwarvish women. Besides male dwarves would like to see something that is actually feminine and sexually arousing. Nothing strikes the male urges for the feminine form in dwarven men or women better than the early morning sun shining off the male elf's well groomed hair that he washed with cherry scented shampoo in the creek that very morning.
teenageghostcouncil 11-12-06, 02:59 PM	It brings out the bad boy in them. Especially for dwarvish women. Besides male dwarves would like to see something that is actually feminine and sexually arousing. Nothing strikes the male urges for the feminine form in dwarven men or women better than the early morning sun shining off the male elf's well groomed hair that he washed with cherry scented shampoo in the creak that very morning. Stop posting, it is hurting my brain
LCD2YOU 11-12-06, 03:05 PM	Stop posting, it is hurting my brainWell, at least you have one. I stopped listening to mine years ago. I think it sat in a corner, all alone and died.
Traevanon 11-12-06, 03:44 PM	I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before but: I'm going to try to cover all the bases here. It's really impossible to prove that a dwarf cannot wield a rapier, but I can at least prove that the situation would never arise where a dwarf would not have a better option, and thus you will never find a dwarf wielding one to prove the other side of the argument. Premise 1: All dwarves should be trained with either Improved Sunder, Disarm, Trip, Bull Rush or Grapple as teenage dwarves. Rapiers, as with all piercing weapons, cannot sunder, disarm or do any of these thing very well and therefore are an inferior choice. Premise 2: Dwarves are medium, but are shorter and have less reach (by inches, not game-term-wise) than other medium races. The rapier works best when the wielder has a greater reach than his opponent. Thus the rapier is an inferior weapon to slashing and bludgeoning weapons which are intended to be used inside the opponent's reach and devastating when employed as such. They use double weapons with piercing as the secondary component or spears or pikes when they want a piercing weapon because it gets them outside the opponent's sword range. Premise 3: Adamantine is a hard, inflexible metal. It is unsuitable for use in the construction of flimsy rapier. Premise 4: In an emergency situation if an unarmed dwarf grappled a rapier wielding elf to death he would search it for other weapons such as daggers then leave the rapier lying next to the body. Obviously the rapier didnt work very well for the elf, why would it work for him? Closest possible result: Dwarf wields the rapier's harness as a garrote. Premise 5: If an unarmed dwarf found a rapier unattended in a weapon rack, he would consider the weapon rack itself a better weapon. Premise 6: If someone paid a dwarf to use a rapier in a fight, or the dwarf lost a bet, the clever dwarf would examine the weapon, wrap his hand up in a torn piece of cloth and wield it with the blade in his hand and the heavy end away from his body, turning it into a makeshift mace. You might think that in this case the dwarf is wielding the rapier, but if you check the definition of "wielding" you will find that it isnt the case. I think that covers it. Since you will never find a dwarf willing to wield a rapier, it can not truly be said that a Dwarf cannot wield a rapier, but neither can the reverse be proven true, that a dwarf can wield it. In reality niether matters, because banning the rapier proficiency for all dwarves will have no effect, as would granting it to all dwarves. ;)
Sergikins 11-12-06, 07:35 PM	actually, i was at a LARP once, and this NPC named "ben" (uber high level, it was a spoof) wieldied the raiper upside down. when told by low levels hee was using it wrong, he challanged them to hit him, and well, they swung, and he called deflects dodges and parrys because he happened to have infinte. then he proceeded to wail on some wierdos.
JasonOrlandoHawk 11-12-06, 07:37 PM	One specific note in regards to Dwarves and Rapiers. Rapiers are designed to be used in conjunction w/ the Weapon Finesse feat. Dwarves are designed to walk around in heavy armor. A good dwarf would naturally want to be wearing the heaviest armor he can find, which stacks naturally w/ a huge tower shield. A dwarf using any other combination isn't playing to their strengths. Rapiers are intended to be used by High Dex characters along w/ the Weapon Finesse Feat. Otherwise, they are sub-par one-handed melee weapons. Stat wise, a battleaxe, flail, longsword, scimitar, trident, and warhammer are all better options. A Rapier is a fast-mans One-handed melee weapon. However, there is a problem when you try to mix the two. A Dwarf is strongest in heavy armor/tower shield. A Rapier is strongest with High Dex & Weapon Finesse. First, you are severely hampering your combat effectiveness trying to mix the two styles, but more importantly than all that: YOU TAKE YOUR ARMOR CHECK PENALTY FROM YOUR SHIELD AND APPLY IT TO ALL ATTACK ROLLS USING WEAPON FINESSE!!! I really don't think a -10 armor check penalty to attack, when added to the -2 penalty you already recieve from a Tower Shield, would inspire most dwarves to use a Rapier. A Shortspear, Longspear, and Trident are much more useful w/o having such a high penalty. A Rapier's Strengths and a Dwarf's stregths just don't coincide. Besides all that, Dwarves HATE the Elves. Why? It's simple, really. The Lord of the Rings Movies made all Elves look like gods while reducing the Dwarves to pathetic sidenotes in the story. "We Dwarves are natural sprinters!! Very dangerous over short distances!!" *And Tolkien rolls over in his grave* The Dwarves are still trying to figure out how the Elves managed to pay off Peter Jackson to so pathetically portray the Dwarven race...
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 11-12-06, 09:17 PM	Besides all that, Dwarves HATE the Elves. Why? It's simple, really. The Lord of the Rings Movies made all Elves look like gods while reducing the Dwarves to pathetic sidenotes in the story. "We Dwarves are natural sprinters!! Very dangerous over short distances!!" *And Tolkien rolls over in his grave* The Dwarves are still trying to figure out how the Elves managed to pay off Peter Jackson to so pathetically portray the Dwarven race... QFT, I just watched the second film and I was getting sick of the Dwarf jokes, they evel sliped in that :censored: about dwarven women having beards, and the short jokes... :rolleyes: And the way every one goes :drool: over elf made weapons and armour? It makes me sick. Dwarves simply have no need of an over grown knitting needle, if they need a lighter weapon just go for a short sword (making sure to call it a dagger or poket knife) but even dwarven Rogues can do better than a rapier, infact there was a recent Class acts in Dragon magizine on that very matter. And the reason that Dwarves favor Axes is nothing to do with lumberjacking, it combines a long haft, weighted head and small striking area (The edge) for pircing heavy armor, with a finly honed edge for anything softer, making it a good wepon aginst other hevaly armoured foes like Dulguar and rival clans od Dwarves.
theotherdraxen 11-12-06, 09:39 PM	If you want to restrict races from using certain martial weapons, have them treat such weapons as exotic. Dwarves can wield rapiers, though, as someone pointed out to me when I asked that in the 'Can an Elf wield a Greatsword' thread, a dwarf would sooner wield an Elf than a rapier. Dwarves love axes over 'thrusting' weapons because dwarves build massive, underground chambers. Plus, they're small, and don't need so much room, so they usually have plenty of space. LOTR didn't make elves look better than dwarves, it just brought them up to par with dwarven awesomeness. Really, Peter Jackson was trying to fight the social stigmas against elves we see today. BTW: does anyone have a picture of an elf wielding a greatsword (or a dwarf with a rapier)? The last one had an elf with at most a longsword (greatswords are two-handed and nearly as tall as the wielder).
fatal error 11-12-06, 09:41 PM	And the reason that Dwarves favor Axes is nothing to do with lumberjacking, it combines a long haft, weighted head and small striking area (The edge) for pircing heavy armor, with a finly honed edge for anything softer, making it a good wepon aginst other hevaly armoured foes like Dulguar and rival clans od Dwarves. So picks wouldn't be better against armor? Plus, I'm not sure axe hafts are really considered "long". I guess they're longer than a sword's, but that is a given. And they're certainly shorter than a halberd or actual reach weapons which are what most people would consider "long hafted".
TheWerg 11-12-06, 11:20 PM	If you want to restrict races from using certain martial weapons, have them treat such weapons as exotic. Yeah, I kinda proposed that, but I just said they weren't automatically proficient. I like that idea to give the races a bit of flavor. I don't think absolutely banning weapons is a good idea; I don't even necessarily think restricting them at all is good. I was just seeing what people thought about the idea and if they could come up with a good system for it that would make it usable.
Sim_antix 11-12-06, 11:24 PM	BTW: does anyone have a picture of an elf wielding a greatsword (or a dwarf with a rapier)? The last one had an elf with at most a longsword (greatswords are two-handed and nearly as tall as the wielder). http://ironwindmetals.com/catalog/images/fig_pics/03-210.jpg Yeah one handed even with an axe in the other hand.
teenageghostcouncil 11-12-06, 11:41 PM	http://ironwindmetals.com/catalog/images/fig_pics/03-210.jpg Yeah one handed even with an axe in the other hand. whoever made that waw a blasphemous fool
DrakeRunner 11-12-06, 11:51 PM	Dwarves probably just like heavy ended weapons with hafts. Hammers, axes, its all good. It feels good to them. They like to swing hammers, to create and to build, and it is a very good thing to feel, a good stress release to just whack at something. Its a natural extension for what tatamounts to a race of builders to enjoy using that kind of weapon. And I'll throw my own 2 cents in on the Elf bashing, even though I'm probably a horrible person for it. In my own game, Elves haven't even existed for thousands of years, and the players see the elves as near gods, and dwarves as disgusting little Gollums, never ever passing up a single opportunity to attack them for their size or the fact the fighter attempted to attack one who didn't confide his secret in him. In fact, pretty much all races other than Elves and Humans are Laughable Puny Idiots, or Ugly Evil Ew Ew Things To Kill. ....Sorry, no DM rant threads available.
MaximumPain 11-13-06, 02:25 AM	Kind of a funny side note. In one of my old games we had a thief who used a rapier and whip in a 2-weapon combo the rest of the party (who were mostly beefy warrior types) called him “toothpick and wet noodle”. If a Dwarf wants to use a Rapier he can other Dwarfs should tease him mercilessly for using such a wimpy weapon. Now should a 4-foot tall person be able to wield a 6-foot long sword? Not very well I think or at least it would be hard to carry around but this is D&D and not real life.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-13-06, 02:36 PM	I can see you have never played Warhammer. Thats ok no fault there but the figure is indeed wielding a greatsword. In fact the figure is aptly named "Elf Champion w/Greatsword" Face it, you are a hamster. I don't care about what it's called in Warhammer, but in D&D, it's called a bastard sword.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-13-06, 03:37 PM	Well that was certaintly short lived... i see the life of this thread being rather short lived so i will get my two cents in quick. Dwarf using a rapier? Yes. Dwarves will use anything for a weapon. If they can pick it up, and chuck at something, or whack it into somthing, they will. Plain and simple, dwarves couldnt care less what steel is atached to so long at it is steel and has a moderately sensible spot by which to hold on to it, they will swing, throw, or bash with it. Thumb is not a hamster, because hamsters cant type that well. Keyboards just arent set up for hamsters. Now a 400 lb gorrila thats a different story.
teenageghostcouncil 11-13-06, 03:54 PM	Thumb is not a hamster, because hamsters cant type that well. Keyboards just arent set up for hamsters. he uses a special hamster keyboard
Vestigial_Thumb 11-13-06, 04:01 PM	Well its a greatsword... It's called a greatsword in Warhammer. That does not make it a greatsword in D&D. Thumb is not a hamster, because hamsters cant type that well. Keyboards just arent set up for hamsters. Now a 400 lb gorrila thats a different story. Or a bear.
Sim_antix 11-13-06, 06:34 PM	It's called a greatsword in Warhammer. That does not make it a greatsword in D&D. I am going to have to disagree. Is a dagger in Warhammer still a dagger in D&D? How about a whip? The weapons don't change, just the statistics for those weapons.
Salla 11-13-06, 06:51 PM	Looks like a greatsword to me. He probably has Wield Oversized Weapon or something like that. Warhammer or no ... Or is that Warhamster or no? ;) Sorry, had to get one last one in. :) Back on topic ... I can't for the life of me see why or how it could possibly matter to the typical Dwarf/Elf on the street what weapon anybody else uses. I do not comprehend the concept of 'social stigma' to weaponry. It's a sharpened hunk of steel which one uses to explore the possibilities of 'pointy end, other guy' and it's pretty much meaningless what particular weapon it is. Elves are individualists, so they'd freely support an individual's right to select the weapon of his choice. Dwarves are more concerned about results, and thus would want the person to use the weapon that he can put to the best use.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-13-06, 07:51 PM	a greatsword is a sword around as long as an avergae human is tall, and that swords is a big as an elf(slightly shorter then human), but the elf is wearing a helmet, to make the sword maybe an oversized greatswords even admit it dude, you are a hamster Slight problem with that assumption there. If in fact the traditional greatsword is as big as an average human is tall, then a greatsword by todays standard would be shorter than the average human. Case in point the traditional greatsword was most likely forged during a pre renascaince (sp? forgive me im on meds right now) period most likely the dark ages of europe if im not mistaken by and made famous by the scottish highlands in the form of a Claymore. Then at that time the average human, more specifically the average scottsman, was barely over 5 ft 3 in. And lets not also forget what part of the sword are we talking about? The entire sword or the blade? If you include pommel to tip then yes as tall as the average midevil aged man. But if we are saying a greatsword is measured by it blade length then no it would not be as long as the average man is tall. Its all just a matter of perspective. In either case; there is nothing in the rules that preclude any one race from weilding any particular weapon. Althogh i would imagine you would be pretty hard pressed to find any literal instances where an Elf would be weilding a Dwarven War Axe and vice versa. The only time i could see that a DM would be within the realm of common sense in limiting races from weapons would be specific racial weapons such as the one i just described. I mean could you really see a human rogue heaving an orc shot put? Probably not. Ultimately it is the DMs call as to who and what can or cannot weild things in their game. But if we are asking if their is any book instance precluding a race from certain things, there is none. Its all just a matter of flavor and spice from one campaign to the next.
teenageghostcouncil 11-13-06, 10:45 PM	BTW: In one of my games, the DM made a hybrid of an elf and an orc. In a world where elves are wussies that can't wield anything that deals more than 1d6 damage, but orcs are badass enough to wield greataxes, what are the limitations on such a creature? such a creature should not exist, and if it did, it would be limited to 1d10
TwiddleStootch 11-13-06, 11:14 PM	Actually the half-way point between the Elf's and the Orc's damage dice(d6 and d12) is a d9 :D Anyone here good enough at carving to make a bunch of d9s for all our elf-orcs? :P EDIT- PAGE 4! EDIT-Changed d7 to d9. sorry, I meant 9, donna know why I hit 7 instead :rolleyes:
teenageghostcouncil 11-13-06, 11:16 PM	Actually the half-way point between the Elf's and the Orc's damage dice(d6 and d12) is a d7 :D Anyone here good enough at carving to make a bunch of d7s for all our elf-orcs? :P EDIT- PAGE 4! actually it is 9 see 12 + 6 is 18 divided by 2 and i just changed to to d10 cause orc like beings deserve a d10
GalaGalaxia 11-14-06, 12:03 AM	Isn't the whole "dwarf wielding a rapier" and "elf wielding a greatsword" a matter of role playing, and not rules? Certainly they _can_ ... if they have a reason to find a particular weapon to be the best choice for them. Maybe it's a sissy dwarf, or a buffy elf? So? If it fits your character -- do it!
teenageghostcouncil 11-14-06, 12:06 AM	Isn't the whole "dwarf wielding a rapier" and "elf wielding a greatsword" a matter of role playing, and not rules? Certainly they _can_ ... if they have a reason to find a particular weapon to be the best choice for them. Maybe it's a sissy dwarf, or a buffy elf? So? If it fits your character -- do it! but who would want to do this???
TheWerg 11-14-06, 12:13 AM	Yeah, you two have effectively destroyed this thread as well as you did the last.
teenageghostcouncil 11-14-06, 12:19 AM	Yeah, you two have effectively destroyed this thread as well as you did the last. who is "you two?" how did they/we destroy it?
BadCatMan 11-14-06, 12:20 AM	It all depends on the dwarf. A Dwarf Diviner and wanna-be Loremaster in my game took Martial Weapon Proficiency: Waraxe. To impress his clan and to be able to hit things when they get too close. (He has AC 10 and keeps running into melee. I'm trying not to kill him, I really am.) You see, even a Dwarf Wizard has to use an axe. I meanwhile have been toying with a Dwarven Indiana Jones type, a Dwarf Rogue/Fighter/Lasher who uses his immensely long beard-whip to trip and whip his foes, sneak attack, snatch objects and swing across chasms. Now no Dwarf would ever dare make fun of another Dwarf who wields a whip like that.
TheWerg 11-14-06, 12:21 AM	"You two" would be you and TwiddleStooch. You kind of spammed it to death. Except the kind of doesn't need to be there. You did spam it to death.
teenageghostcouncil 11-14-06, 12:23 AM	"You two" would be you and TwiddleStooch. You kind of spammed it to death. Except the kind of doesn't need to be there. You did spam it to death. it wasn't just us, but we helped it was no longer on the topic of D&D or do you call a floating/spiked/monster truck/barbeque/car of death on topic? and we are in no way responsible if this gets closed, we have done nothing
Dunelord 11-14-06, 12:41 AM	Honesty yeah dwarf would know how to use it and the idea of the not is just silly. Dwarfs are a very practical people, and would make sure their young have basic train in the weapons they and OTHER near them use. If a 2nd level dwarf finds a +4 speed keen rapier his clan will damn well want him to know how to use it. Now considering the number of swords with the same basic use as the rapier the clans abilty to both have it's warrior survie in situations they are forced to use weapons they normally wouldn't choice for themself and put to use powerful magic items they might find both increase. Honestly I'm hard pressed to think of a group of practical warriors who wouldn't want their young to be able to use a varity of weapons.
theotherdraxen 11-14-06, 01:07 AM	Honesty yeah dwarf would know how to use it and the idea of the not is just silly. Dwarfs are a very practical people, and would make sure their young have basic train in the weapons they and OTHER near them use. If a 2nd level dwarf finds a +4 speed keen rapier his clan will damn well want him to know how to use it. Now considering the number of swords with the same basic use as the rapier the clans abilty to both have it's warrior survie in situations they are forced to use weapons they normally wouldn't choice for themself and put to use powerful magic items they might find both increase. Honestly I'm hard pressed to think of a group of practical warriors who wouldn't want their young to be able to use a varity of weapons. So, by this rationale, dwarves should be proficient with all weapons? They treat Dwarven Urgoshes as martial, why not treat a rapier as exotic?
fatal error 11-14-06, 01:11 AM	Holy post deletion, Batman! So what about dwarves and bows? Dwarves are commonly portrayed with crossbows, but what about long and short bows? I will throw back to my earlier post, dwarves, on average, should have just as many devoted bow-users as humans, yet I never see dwarves with bows.
pres_man 11-14-06, 01:12 AM	A dwarf is allowed to wield a rapier, but only after shaving off his beard and answering to the name "derro". ;)
Sim_antix 11-14-06, 01:21 AM	Dwarves can wield bows, its part of the starting package for a dwarf fighter
teenageghostcouncil 11-14-06, 01:23 AM	Holy post deletion, Batman! So what about dwarves and bows? Dwarves are commonly portrayed with crossbows, but what about long and short bows? I will throw back to my earlier post, dwarves, on average, should have just as many devoted bow-users as humans, yet I never see dwarves with bows. post deletion? check out the new multi-quote feature XD and my new avatar
Gold Medal Jedi 11-17-06, 07:47 PM	Dwarves weilding bows??? What will they come up with next... elves weilding Great swords? Half Orcs weilding stillettos? Gnomes weilding Battleaxes? Halflings weilding full plate armor? Sheesh you guys will let any race do anything...:rolleyes:
fatal error 11-17-06, 08:05 PM	Dwarves weilding bows??? What will they come up with next... elves weilding Great swords? Half Orcs weilding stillettos? Gnomes weilding Battleaxes? Halflings weilding full plate armor? Sheesh you guys will let any race do anything...:rolleyes: Ironically, Garl Glittergold's favored weapon is the Battleaxe.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-17-06, 08:16 PM	I knew there was a reason why i hated Gnomes so much.
clarkvalentine 11-17-06, 08:17 PM	Case in point the traditional greatsword was most likely forged during a pre renascaince (sp? forgive me im on meds right now) period most likely the dark ages of europe if im not mistaken Just as a point of interest, some info on greatswords: In contrast to longswords, technically, true two-handed swords (epee's a deux main) or "two-handers" were actually Renaissance, not Medieval weapons. They are really those specialized forms of the later 1500-1600s, such as the Swiss/German Dopplehänder ("double-hander") or Bidenhänder ("both-hander"). ( http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html ) It seems later on the page many were over 6 feet long from pommel to point. I can't vouch for the site's accuracy, but there it is.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-17-06, 08:21 PM	Info on greatswords: It seems later on the page many were over 6 feet long from pommel to point. I can't vouch for the site's accuracy, but there it is. Meh... Germans... always gotta do it bigger and longer than everyone else...LOL. ;) Like i said though i wasnt sure, becuase im not an expert in the field nor do i wish to be. I was only stating what i did on the facts at hand with a bit of rationale.
clarkvalentine 11-17-06, 08:29 PM	Like i said though i wasnt sure, becuase im not an expert in the field nor do i wish to be. I was only stating what i did on the facts at hand with a bit of rationale. I wasn't sure myself - it's hard to get accurate info on historical weapons (there's so much misinformation and fanboyism on the 'net). Like I said, I have no idea of the accuracy of that site, but it confirms the info that I thought I knew - that greatswords were used in the 16th century to break up formations of pikemen.
pres_man 11-17-06, 08:36 PM	Dwarves weilding bows??? What will they come up with next... elves weilding Great swords? Half Orcs weilding stillettos? Gnomes weilding Battleaxes? Halflings weilding full plate armor? Sheesh you guys will let any race do anything...:rolleyes: Ironically, Garl Glittergold's favored weapon is the Battleaxe. See the end has already begun! :gah: :surrender
Snicker 11-17-06, 08:37 PM	Dwarves are underground creatures. The DMG II has rules for fighting in tunnels. Weapons are penalized on their attacks, with light ones eating lighter penalties than one-handed which took lighter penalties than two-handed. These penalties are lessed for particular piercing weapons, of which I think the rapier is included. Elves are higher-dex creatures and also avid users of the bow. The bow requires two hands to use and the dex lessens the need for the shield. For both these reasons, elf warriors may opt to forgo the use of shields altogether. Assuming they lack the Dex 15 prerequisite or don't want to eat the to-hit penalties, they may want to fill both their hands with a single melee weapon. Hello two-handed weapons, hello greatsword. Badda-bing, badda-boom.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-17-06, 09:44 PM	Dwarves are underground creatures. The DMG II has rules for fighting in tunnels. Weapons are penalized on their attacks, with light ones eating lighter penalties than one-handed which took lighter penalties than two-handed. These penalties are lessed for particular piercing weapons, of which I think the rapier is included. Dwarves don't take these penalties. They are masculine and bearded and don't take crap from the rules.
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-17-06, 09:58 PM	There's no way some snobby, millionaire Kundarak banker who hosts fancy soirées at his mansion in the Mror Holds to network with rich venture capitalists is going to lug a big battle axe around. Much better to keep a fashionable rapier at your side as a status symbol, unless you're trying to collect debts and be intimidating or something. I dissagree compleatly, to a dwarf a big fancy axe would be a symbol of status like no other, and would probally gain him some respect. what sounds like a more dwarf like thing to say What are you going to do, poke me with your little metal stick? or what are you going to do split me from scull to stomich with your big axe? I agree that dwarfs can use rapiers all they like, but if you want to make a statment to a dwarf you carry an axe.
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-17-06, 10:00 PM	Dwarves are underground creatures. The DMG II has rules for fighting in tunnels. Weapons are penalized on their attacks, with light ones eating lighter penalties than one-handed which took lighter penalties than two-handed. These penalties are lessed for particular piercing weapons, of which I think the rapier is included. Badda-bing, badda-boom. that's why they fight in their big nicely carved fortrices in the mountains of uber bearded manlyness, unlike the wussy little drow hideing in holes in the ground.
Salla 11-17-06, 10:23 PM	I dissagree compleatly, to a dwarf a big fancy axe would be a symbol of status like no other, and would probally gain him some respect. what sounds like a more dwarf like thing to say What are you going to do, poke me with your little metal stick? or what are you going to do split me from scull to stomich with your big axe? I agree that dwarfs can use rapiers all they like, but if you want to make a statment to a dwarf you carry an axe. This assumes all characters are played to stereotypes, which they are not.
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-17-06, 10:53 PM	This assumes all characters are played to stereotypes, which they are not. that's fair, but wouldn't assuming nobels would prefer a rapier because it is supposivly more elegant not be playing to the stereotype of what the nobel class prefers?
Archmage_Vall 11-17-06, 11:01 PM	http://ironwindmetals.com/catalog/images/fig_pics/03-210.jpg Yeah one handed even with an axe in the other hand. That poor, unfortunate dwarf evidently rolled a 1 on his save vs. baleful polymorph, and was turned into an elf. Oh, the horror! :weep:
Stoyrm 11-18-06, 09:32 AM	No dwarf would use rapiers ^^, if they had to fight in a tunnel, they would use picks, and hand axes.
Cifer 11-18-06, 10:34 AM	I am going to have to disagree. Is a dagger in Warhammer still a dagger in D&D? How about a whip? The weapons don't change, just the statistics for those weapons. Actually, they may do. Especially since Warhammer usually goes for "Big and Dangerous" rather than realistic concerning weapons. To me, the fact that the elf carries the sword onehanded and without any further support (e.g. leaning it against his shoulder as mercenaries/lansquenets did when traveling) means that it would be considered a bastard sword in D&D. I see no need to do anything mechanical about weapons. I like my characters to have one favorite category of weapons to use, but see no problem in choosing which one it is because of character instead of race.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-18-06, 10:45 AM	This assumes all characters are played to stereotypes, which they are not. That's a hideous lie! Dwarves fight with axes and hammer everywhere and cleave everything from skull to stomach. Elves are wussy little fairies that can't wield any weapon that does more damage than 1d6. And they are precluded from wielding greatswords altogether, even tiny ones (which apparently do 1d6 damage, though it should be more (greatswords are awesome)).
Kitaki 11-18-06, 11:00 AM	On the subject of racial weapon limitations, even though a dwarf is of medium size, should they be allowed to use a longbow? The Player's Handbook describes dwarves as 4 to 4-1/2 feet tall and the longbows, while not given a definite size in the PHB, are historically around 6 feet tall. I can see a dwarf using a Small creatures longbow, but not a Medium sized one. I know from a mechanics perspective there is nothing preventing it, but from a roleplay/logic perspective, it makes no sense.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-18-06, 11:19 AM	On the subject of racial weapon limitations, even though a dwarf is of medium size, should they be allowed to use a longbow? The Player's Handbook describes dwarves as 4 to 4-1/2 feet tall and the longbows, while not given a definite size in the PHB, are historically around 6 feet tall. I can see a dwarf using a Small creatures longbow, but not a Medium sized one. I know from a mechanics perspective there is nothing preventing it, but from a roleplay/logic perspective, it makes no sense. Longbows are for wussies, so a Dwarf wouldn't use one anyway. There is one longbow that was not for wussies, however, and that is the longbow Rambo wields. It is manly, but only because of what I like to call the Rambo Effect (weapon is influenced by its wielder's masculinity/femininity).
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-18-06, 12:19 PM	Longbows are for wussies, so a Dwarf wouldn't use one anyway. There is one longbow that was not for wussies, however, and that is the longbow Rambo wields. It is manly, but only because of what I like to call the Rambo Effect (weapon is influenced by its wielder's masculinity/femininity). indeed dwarfs are much cooler when they are useing repeating crossbows. "say hello to my little freind" "hello Mr. Dwarf" by the way, why do we have a smilie for elf but not dwarf?
Vestigial_Thumb 11-18-06, 12:31 PM	by the way, why do we have a smilie for elf but not dwarf? I think it's a subtle way of saying smilies suck.
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-18-06, 12:42 PM	I think it's a subtle way of saying smilies suck. that's why we need a dwarf one, dwarfs are the only ones who can make them good.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-18-06, 12:44 PM	that's why we need a dwarf one, dwarfs are the only ones who can make them good. Or a smily of me. That would put these forums up several KiloWins.
teenageghostcouncil 11-18-06, 12:44 PM	that's why we need a dwarf one, dwarfs are the only ones who can make them good. seconded and no, a thumb smiley would not make this thread better
Vestigial_Thumb 11-18-06, 12:47 PM	and no, a thumb smiley would not make this thread better The bitter words of a ghost council scorned.
teenageghostcouncil 11-18-06, 01:14 PM	The bitter words of a ghost council scorned. :thumbsup: I guess thier is one already, but it is never used, I have never seen it before now
Vestigial_Thumb 11-18-06, 01:16 PM	:thumbsup: I guess thier is one already, but it is never used, I have never seen it before now That one isn't awesome enough.
AaronDireBear 11-18-06, 01:44 PM	Quit trying to turn DnD into WoW!
teenageghostcouncil 11-18-06, 02:31 PM	That one isn't awesome enough. oh, i should have known Quit trying to turn DnD into WoW! how are we trying to turn it into WoW?
theotherdraxen 11-18-06, 06:54 PM	Dwarves weilding bows??? What will they come up with next... elves weilding Great swords? Half Orcs weilding stillettos? Gnomes weilding Battleaxes? Halflings weilding full plate armor? Sheesh you guys will let any race do anything...:rolleyes: Would you mind explaining how this would be done? How on earth is a halfling going to wield a suit of full platemail? This assumes all characters are played to stereotypes, which they are not. Wrong thread. You're looking for the liberal nonsense thread about elves and dwarves doing whatever they want. It's okay, we all make mistakes.:)
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-18-06, 10:28 PM	I think I read a book once with a swashbuckling dwarf as the dwarfs say in their native tounge "dwartity dwarf dwarf dwarfy battle axe dwarf bah dwarf'n dwarf elves are stupid dwarfing dwarf beards are cool dwarfity dwarf dwarf dwarf'n dwarf dwarfy dwarfy dwarfy dwarf'n double dwarf dwarfy uber dwarf dwarf dwarfity frawd backwards dwarf dwarf dwarf" loosely translated it means "Dwarfs are good at everything, from swinging a hammer to castin a spell, and just to show it sometimes we like to teach one of our own a skill others pride themselvs in just to take them down a notch, elves are stupid and beards are cool."
BoringInfoGuy 11-18-06, 11:23 PM	Rapier: Dwarven for toothpick. So yes, a dwarf can wield a rapier. But only to get bits of elf out of his teeth. What? It's the one thing elves are good for.
Durin413 11-19-06, 02:44 AM	Listen, how bout this. Since elves are only played by elf lovin fanboys and dwarves are pretty powerful already (rightly so), why don we, in exchange for the racial proficiencies already granted, turn rapier into needing exotic for dwarf and greatsword and greataxe into exotic for elf. Also, dwarves like axes so the chop down the trees to get at all the juicy elves in them.
BadCatMan 11-19-06, 02:57 AM	What are you talking about? There's no meat on an elf.
Archangel62 11-19-06, 03:05 AM	Rapier: Dwarven for toothpick. So yes, a dwarf can wield a rapier. But only to get bits of elf out of his teeth. What? It's the one thing elves are good for. Now why would you eat an elf....ok nevermind, there is a way we can go with this that would violate the CoC and I highly recomend we stop. Dwarves can use rapiers, they just generally don't because their usual combat style doesn't support rapier combat. Mechanically sure, but I don't think it's common simple because dwarven battle tactics tend to be phalanxes and locket tanking. Rapiers do not work well in either scenario.
Silverthumb128 11-19-06, 03:12 AM	That one isn't awesome enough. Not enough silver, I'd say. Too pink. There's no meat on an elf. He means getting their long, silky hair stuck in your teeth. I'd have said bones, but those matchsticks Elves hold themselves upright with can't be called bones with a straight face.
JoAT 11-19-06, 04:29 AM	Dwarves most certainly can weild rapiers. However, given their wide bodies, small arms and tiny, pudgy fingers, most dwarves find that, in order to wield such a this weapon effectivly, they need to grasp it with both hands, which makes it appear like the dwarf in question is hugging the weapon. In order to use the now upward standing weapon, they often find that they must bend over and whip their torso around, occasionally thrusting forward when they need to stab. Because of this, most dwarves do not wield rapiers. After all, who would be afraid of a hugging, thrusting dwarf? On a more serious note, while outright banning it would be a bad idea, you may want to consider on looking into giving them a variation of the 'Short Fingers' flaw from the core-race oriented issue of Dragon, in exchange for some benefit, of course. I think it gave a -4 to all attack rolls with one-handed weapons, or reduced the strength bonus, or something. A similar flaw could be made for elves and two-handed weapons...
Cantankerous 11-19-06, 04:40 AM	People, one of the best epee fighters (close enough to a rapier to qualify as one in game certainly) I've ever seen, a man who won dozens of regional and two state competitions in the south in the late seventies, was 5'5" and weighed more than 260lbs. The guy was a really tall dwarf, to all intents and purposes. His reflxes were still amazing, dispite his girth and his knowledge of the sport more than made up for his physical deficiencies. Too, of course, when someone who was any good at all fought him for the first time he had a huge advantage from sheer surprise on his side. Desire, and mindset mean FAR more for how capable you will be with a fighting style than raw physical ability or compatibility could ever make you. Isshia
Sim_antix 11-19-06, 09:53 AM	Because of this, most dwarves do not wield rapiers. After all, who would be afraid of a hugging, thrusting dwarf? Everyone except Chuck
Vestigial_Thumb 11-19-06, 10:48 AM	Everyone except Chuck And his pantheon of badasses.
PSchirf 11-19-06, 02:51 PM	Legions of vegetarian Dwarf pikemen, rapiers at their belts for close combat, protect the dwarf ships of Flowerport, a city where alcohol is outlawed and clothing is optional -- From Dwarf Horror Stories, Volume XIV.
Sim_antix 11-19-06, 03:10 PM	And his pantheon of badasses. Yes but you know the rules Rule #1 You do not talk about the Pantheon of Bad Asses Rule #2 You do not talk about the Pantheon of Bad Asses
pierow37 11-19-06, 03:26 PM	Well for one thing. DWARFS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE A RANGER! It is evil and mean, and they will all burn in heck for it!
Meshakhad 11-19-06, 03:30 PM	Eh, I play humans most of the time. They can use both weapons without stigma. And humans are the only race who would have had both the capability and motive to invent heavy siege weapons, such as catapults. Elves: Prefer lightweight weapons. Catapults are SO ungainly Dwarves: Fight underground. Catapults useless. Gnomes/Halflings: Siege weapons are too heavy for either race to use. Monstrous races: Too stupid (well, possibly the hobgoblins, but since when are hobgoblins inventors?) Finally, humans are the only race that is experienced at fighting INTELLIGENT foes (chielfy other humans), so in a racial war, the humans would win.
PSchirf 11-19-06, 03:37 PM	Dwarves usually sleep underground, and do a lot of work underground, but they also to a lot of work above ground. Timbering isn't far behind mining in their pursuit of raw materials. Battles between dwarf armies and humanoid armies often have the dwarf forces flooding out of their mountain hold to surprise sieging forces. They also lay siege to strongholds as often as other races. But they're not carrying rapiers when they do it.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-20-06, 01:37 AM	Would you mind explaining how this would be done? How on earth is a halfling going to wield a suit of full platemail? Thats kinda the point.. sheesh... literalists. :rolleyes:
Kitaki 11-20-06, 08:33 AM	I can see a halfling wielding a suit of full platemail, its actually a rather entertaining thought. Halfling Barbarian, does't wear the suit of platemail he just bought, he swings it around as a weapon.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-20-06, 03:17 PM	How about a pixi weilding a troll? New Feat Perfect Monkey Grip Benefit: Look absolutely ridiculous weilding items 20 size catagories larger than your own. Normal: No way in hell.
Timespike 11-20-06, 04:45 PM	never mind
Gold Medal Jedi 11-20-06, 05:20 PM	never mind No please enlighten us. :D
Archangel62 11-20-06, 06:01 PM	Legions of vegetarian Dwarf pikemen, rapiers at their belts for close combat, protect the dwarf ships of Flowerport, a city where alcohol is outlawed and clothing is optional -- From Dwarf Horror Stories, Volume XIV. And what's worse, all the pretzels are stale.
teenageghostcouncil 11-20-06, 07:37 PM	And what's worse, all the pretzels are stale. blasphemous fool
AaronDireBear 11-20-06, 08:13 PM	how are we trying to turn it into WoW? Racial restrictions on classes and cutlasses, curtailing character customization.
DrakeRunner 11-20-06, 09:05 PM	I'm sure this is a nice big discussion now, but honestly, the old editions had it this way. If it didn't fit, it was FORBIDDEN. Sure no dwarf is going to use a rapier. No Elf is going to use an Urgrosh. Thats the way it goes. But when you start adding in limits like that, other limits get put in. Stupid ones. One got passed around a while back on the boards, inspired by the anime Slayers. Females lose all access to special abilities during the time of the month. And thats a stupid limit. Much more stupid than Elf/Dwarf thing, but its a freedom thing. No reason to really ban it.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-20-06, 09:10 PM	Racial restrictions on classes and cutlasses, curtailing character customization. You're taking this way, way too seriously. Way. And Elves can't wield greatswords. They also can't take levels in Barbarian or Hexblade, for these are man-classes (No girls allowed!:mad: ).
theotherdraxen 11-20-06, 09:13 PM	Thats kinda the point.. sheesh... literalists. :rolleyes: Nah, I do think that a halfling would be better off wielding a suit of platemail than wearing it, but I just don't know how he would do either. Halflings are pretty much little elves. On that note, gnomes are kind of little dwarves, but I don't think they should be wielding greatswords or suit of platemail. No please enlighten us. :D Yes, we want to know! And what's worse, all the pretzels are stale. Well, given the nature of dwarf food, this might actually be a plus. Now, if the pretzels were unsalted...
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-20-06, 09:16 PM	Legions of vegetarian Dwarf pikemen, rapiers at their belts for close combat, protect the dwarf ships of Flowerport, a city where alcohol is outlawed and clothing is optional -- From Dwarf Horror Stories, Volume XIV. that's a lie! clothing is not optional, everyone in the city is required to were a tiara made of flowers at all times.
theotherdraxen 11-20-06, 09:17 PM	You're taking this way, way too seriously. Way. And Elves can't wield greatswords. They also can't take levels in Barbarian or Hexblade, for these are man-classes (No girls allowed!:mad: ). Wait, what about the whirling frenzy barbarian variant? Could a wood elf or wild elf enter into that? Also, dwarves can't become spellcasters. Period.
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-20-06, 09:19 PM	Well for one thing. DWARFS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE A RANGER! It is evil and mean, and they will all burn in heck for it! what, why ? dwarfen cavers (as they call them) are some of the best folks to know when traveling in underdark.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-20-06, 09:21 PM	Wait, what about the whirling frenzy barbarian variant? Could a wood elf or wild elf enter into that? Hell no! Also, dwarves can't become spellcasters. Period. Sorcerers. Dwarves make really good Sorcerers. See Dwarven racial substitution levels for Sorcerer. It rocks!
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-20-06, 09:26 PM	Hell no! Sorcerers. Dwarves make really good Sorcerers. See Dwarven racial substitution levels for Sorcerer. It rocks! and don't forget divine spell casting, they make great pallys, clearics, druids (althow that is a rare chois), rangers.....
theotherdraxen 11-20-06, 09:52 PM	Hell no! :weep: Sorcerers. Dwarves make really good Sorcerers. See Dwarven racial substitution levels for Sorcerer. It rocks! No. Dwarves can be divine casters (not Druids, though), but you can't play a Wizard or Sorcerer Dwarf, even if they have kick-ass substitution levels. Those are for the people that think dwarves can wield rapiers. Come on, Thumb, whose side are you on here?
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-20-06, 09:58 PM	dwarfs can be what ever they want, but they rarely choose alot of stuff because that way when a dwarf does become one they get to see the look on everyone elces face when he owns them at their own game. for further explanation look at this quote. as the dwarfs say in their native tounge "dwartity dwarf dwarf dwarfy battle axe dwarf bah dwarf'n dwarf elves are stupid dwarfing dwarf beards are cool dwarfity dwarf dwarf dwarf'n dwarf dwarfy dwarfy dwarfy dwarf'n double dwarf dwarfy uber dwarf dwarf dwarfity frawd backwards dwarf dwarf dwarf" loosely translated it means "Dwarfs are good at everything, from swinging a hammer to castin a spell, and just to show it sometimes we like to teach one of our own a skill others pride themselvs in just to take them down a notch, elves are stupid and beards are cool."
Durin413 11-21-06, 02:11 AM	Dwarves CAN be Wizards, however, culturally, they are expected to be capable of crafting magic items (think weapons and armor here). One who does not do that (or a sorceror) is simply a mutant bearded elf, fir only to be barbequed
Vestigial_Thumb 11-21-06, 11:17 AM	Come on, Thumb, whose side are you on here? On the side of those who want to allow Dwarves to add their kickass Constitution modifier to their Charisma score to determine extra spells, get Damage Reduction, and turn them into psychotically powerful artillery units. All they have to do to get this stuff is not fly! Sorcerers are badass, Wizards aren't.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-21-06, 08:47 PM	If a dwarf were a sorcerer what would his familiar be? Or is he too manly for a sissy ass familiar? I would go with animated tankard. That would be so full of awesomness.
theotherdraxen 11-21-06, 09:12 PM	On the side of those who want to allow Dwarves to add their kickass Constitution modifier to their Charisma score to determine extra spells, get Damage Reduction, and turn them into psychotically powerful artillery units. All they have to do to get this stuff is not fly! Sorcerers are badass, Wizards aren't. :mad: Dwarves hate magic! Bottom line! That's why they have favored class: fighter while the sissy elves have favored class: wizard. Note Fighter =/= Wizard. In fact, fighter is the opposite of the wizard (in the iconic sense). If a dwarf learns magic and starts casting spells, then he may as well shave off his beard and grow pointy ears.
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-21-06, 10:30 PM	[QUOTE=theotherdraxen;10705524]: Note Fighter =/= Wizard. In fact, fighter is the opposite of the wizard (in the iconic sense)QUOTE] opposite you say, well let's compair I) no magic vs. magic................looks good so far II) armor vs. no armor................still looks fine III) fighters like magic weapons Vs mages like magic......hold on that one's kind of close, but maybee it's just a one time thing. IV) fighters like to have a healer backing them up vs. so do wizards................................. ..ok so they have something in common V) fighters exist so their opposite must be something that does not exist Vs the wizard exists.......well no argueing with the facts, they are not opposite.
TheWerg 11-21-06, 11:02 PM	opposite you say, well let's compair I) no magic vs. magic................looks good so far II) armor vs. no armor................still looks fine III) fighters like magic weapons Vs mages like magic......hold on that one's kind of close, but maybee it's just a one time thing. IV) fighters like to have a healer backing them up vs. so do wizards................................. ..ok so they have something in common V) fighters exist so their opposite must be something that does not exist Vs the wizard exists.......well no argueing with the facts, they are not opposite. Did the God of Logic just descend from the heavens and strike you dead on the spot? I hope so.
Rauric 11-21-06, 11:08 PM	[QUOTE=Whisper_Swiftblade;10706077] Did the God of Logic just descend from the heavens and strike you dead on the spot? I hope so. The god of logic should be kind and delete this sad thread.
theotherdraxen 11-21-06, 11:11 PM	Did the God of Logic just descend from the heavens and strike you dead on the spot? I hope so. Er...who were you talking to? @WS: I said opposite in the iconic sense. Iconically, fighters and wizards have been seen as opposites the same way that dwarves and elves are iconic opposites. Both Dwarves and Elves are very long-lived and arrogant, but they are still iconic opposites.
TheWerg 11-22-06, 12:45 AM	I was talking to Whisper_Swiftblade. His busted quote busted my quote.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-22-06, 10:43 AM	If a dwarf were a sorcerer what would his familiar be? Or is he too manly for a sissy ass familiar? His badass substitution levels demand that he kill (in other words not summon) his familiar. :mad: Dwarves hate magic! Bottom line! That's why they have favored class: fighter while the sissy elves have favored class: wizard. Dwarves go into Sorcerer, Barbarian, Hexblade => Sorcerer Awesome = Masculinity = Beard (by proxy). Fighter is suboptimal and is not fit for Dwarves' awesomeness. Elves have favored class Wizard =/= Sorcerer (and therefore none of the items in the preceding statement) => Wizard = Suck = Wussy.
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-22-06, 10:57 AM	Did the God of Logic just descend from the heavens and strike you dead on the spot? I hope so. sir, logic was totaly removed from this thread the moment we started judgeing what a dwarf can do by what is kick-ass.
Whisper_Swiftblade 11-22-06, 11:00 AM	Er...who were you talking to? @WS: I said opposite in the iconic sense. Iconically, fighters and wizards have been seen as opposites the same way that dwarves and elves are iconic opposites. Both Dwarves and Elves are very long-lived and arrogant, but they are still iconic opposites. ah, somehow i missed the 'iconic" part, my mistake. but i still stand by dwarfs useing magic if they want, where do you think all of the enchanted weapons come from?
Gold Medal Jedi 11-22-06, 11:07 AM	His badass substitution levels demand that he kill (in other words not summon) his familiar. Yeah but kill an animated never ending tankard of ale? Are you sure a Dwarf would commit such a heinous act?
Vestigial_Thumb 11-22-06, 11:33 AM	Yeah but kill an animated never ending tankard of ale? Are you sure a Dwarf would commit such a heinous act? Dwarves craft them using item creation feats. However, the ones they craft would be extra ones, as Dwarves automatically receive one when they're born (they're drunk from they moment they're born 'til the moment they die).
Voran 11-22-06, 06:41 PM	I think dwarves would totally wield rapiers, then deny they're rapiers. Tis not a rapier! Tis a spike with a pommel! Yaaaar. (Not sure why my dwarf has a pirate accent)
Gold Medal Jedi 11-22-06, 08:19 PM	Because like dwarves, chuck norris, and ninjas, Pirates are bad asses.
theotherdraxen 11-22-06, 10:17 PM	His badass substitution levels demand that he kill (in other words not summon) his familiar. Dwarves go into Sorcerer, Barbarian, Hexblade => Sorcerer Awesome = Masculinity = Beard (by proxy). Fighter is suboptimal and is not fit for Dwarves' awesomeness. Elves have favored class Wizard =/= Sorcerer (and therefore none of the items in the preceding statement) => Wizard = Suck = Wussy. Come on. A penalty to charisma is Moradin's way of telling you not to become a sorcerer. Besides, sorcerers have dragon-blood in them, and what dragon would sleep with a dwarf?
theotherdraxen 11-22-06, 10:17 PM	Because like dwarves, chuck norris, and ninjas, Pirates are bad asses. You forgot Beowulf. Apparently, he's more badass than Chuck Norris.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-22-06, 10:36 PM	You forgot Beowulf. Apparently, he's more badass than Chuck Norris. Stab your tounge a thousand times and then drink some salty isopropyl. How dare you say such vile things.
TheWerg 11-23-06, 03:33 AM	You forgot Beowulf. Apparently, he's more badass than Chuck Norris. Not true. Beowulf can die, and does at the end.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-23-06, 10:19 AM	Come on. A penalty to charisma is Moradin's way of telling you not to become a sorcerer. Dwarves can add their Constitution modifier to their Charisma score for determining bonus spells. Q.E.D. Besides, sorcerers have dragon-blood in them, and what dragon would sleep with a dwarf? Sorcerer means spontaneous magical gift. Dwarves get magic gifts when they're born (see endless supply of ale), and some dwarves get mor gifts when they're born (see Dwarf Sorcerer substitution levels). Dwarf Sorcerers woop yo' ass!
theotherdraxen 11-23-06, 12:29 PM	Dwarves can add their Constitution modifier to their Charisma score for determining bonus spells. Q.E.D. NO! HOW DARE THEY! Are we going to see Swashbuckler substitution levels where the dwarf gets to add his constitution bonus to his rapier attacks? It's the end of racial prejudice! Sorcerer means spontaneous magical gift. Dwarves get magic gifts when they're born (see endless supply of ale), and some dwarves get mor gifts when they're born (see Dwarf Sorcerer substitution levels). Dwarf Sorcerers woop yo' ass! http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sorcerer Sorcerer (noun) a person who practices sorcery; black magician; wizard. Hmm...the dictionary.com defintion sucks. Doesn't the PHB say somewhere that sorcerers have dragon blood, or are at least supposed to?
Eikre 11-23-06, 01:19 PM	It says that the origins of their power may yet be in dragons. And Wizards has done so much to pidgeonhole them into that flavor since then. To be fair, though, the feats and flavor that surround Sorcerers imply that they have generally magical blood. Dragons, Celestials, Fay; it's all good.
JoAT 11-23-06, 01:46 PM	If dwarves had the time to couple (which they don't*) with creatures with magical blood, how about elementals? *Dwarves aren't born. They're mined.
Eikre 11-23-06, 01:50 PM	People, one of the best epee fighters (close enough to a rapier to qualify as one in game certainly) I was about to call BS on that (Really, you don't even get a hand-parry!), but then I realized, you're right. DnD combat really is modeled on fencing and movies.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-23-06, 02:27 PM	NO! HOW DARE THEY! Are we going to see Swashbuckler substitution levels where the dwarf gets to add his constitution bonus to his rapier attacks? It's the end of racial prejudice! No, we only get foxy Dwarves that can turn into Chuck Norris. And also sling spells farther and more effectively than any other spellcaster. Dwarven Sorcerer should get d12 as their HD, like, automatically. Also a good Fortitude save. And a full BAB. Do not question my knowledge of things bearded and manly.
Balseraph 11-23-06, 05:23 PM	When designing your campaign take into account the regional and racial tendencies for weapons and armor. Thats not to say that no dwarf would ever wield a rapier, just that you will not find any weaponsmiths that make rapiers in the dwarven homelands. Perhaps a PC Dwarf who travels outside of their realm will become a rogue and use a rapier but the chances of him aquiring one while in dwarven lands are virtually nil. That's one attitude towards dwarves, and it's totally valid if that's how you like your dwarves to be. I look on dwarves as masters of their craft, so building a rapier is just as much of a technical challenge of smithing as anything else. Dwarves have no penalty to dexterity, so they're just as nimble as most of the other common races. In fact, from a line-of-sight point of view, having a rapier prodding up under your chin is quite intimidating! ;) Dwarves are slower than some races due to their stature, but that doesn't affect their coordination or reaction time. I'm running an Eberron game at the moment and before that I ran Ravenloft. In both those settings there are ample places for urbane, city-dwelling dwarves who arm themselves with regard to fashion and duelling customs.
Nathreet 11-23-06, 05:41 PM	The nice thing about the D&D system is that few dwarves would be a class that would want a rapier. Likewise few elves would be a class that would want a greatsword. Therefore there are naturally few elves with greatswords, and few dwarves with rapiers. But it could and does happen in rare circumstances. I think the system is great as-is. It already encourages "proper" weapoon choices just enough, while allowing other weapon choices without a serious penalty. For example, I'll soon be playing a dwarf with a waraxe. I was also considering an urgosh. Why? Because they're better weapons, and they're available to a dwarf.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-23-06, 06:39 PM	The nice thing about the D&D system is that few dwarves would be a class that would want a rapier. Likewise few elves would be a class that would want a greatsword. Therefore there are naturally few elves with greatswords, and few dwarves with rapiers. But it could and does happen in rare circumstances. I think the system is great as-is. It already encourages "proper" weapoon choices just enough, while allowing other weapon choices without a serious penalty. For example, I'll soon be playing a dwarf with a waraxe. I was also considering an urgosh. Why? Because they're better weapons, and they're available to a dwarf. Umm yeah
BadCatMan 11-23-06, 08:37 PM	Dwarves have no penalty to dexterity, so they're just as nimble as most of the other common races. Actually: Gold Dwarves, Dream Dwarves, Arctic Dwarves, the various elemental Dwarves of Unearthed Arcana - they all have Dex penalties.
PSchirf 11-23-06, 10:22 PM	Besides, sorcerers have dragon-blood in them, and what dragon would sleep with a dwarf?Arg, this is why I hate it when they mix flavor text and rules text! In many of our games the very idea of a dragon + humanoid offspring is laughable.
theotherdraxen 11-24-06, 01:16 AM	No, we only get foxy Dwarves that can turn into Chuck Norris. And also sling spells farther and more effectively than any other spellcaster. There is no such thing as a foxy dwarf. Maybe more bearded and manly, but not *shudders* foxy. Dwarven Sorcerer should get d12 as their HD, like, automatically. Also a good Fortitude save. And a full BAB. Okay, this could become a dwarven sorcerer, if they also got proficiency with all martial weapons, armor, and shields, and Weapon Aptitude, plus bonus feats to make up for the MAD...say, 11? Oh, and their spellcasting stat should be switched to Constitution. Do not question my knowledge of things bearded and manly. I have to question everything you say, Thumb. You're evil incarnate. And I do not want to appear in your ego-pad, even if evil incarnate is a compliment to you. Nothing against you, I just don't like ego-pads (except for the Wergs). Arg, this is why I hate it when they mix flavor text and rules text! In many of our games the very idea of a dragon + humanoid offspring is laughable. You'll laugh, unitl he breathes fire and chucks fireballs into the battlefield. Besides, a dragon can shapechange, or the two can be forcibly combined through magic (half-giants were made this way, IIRC).
Vestigial_Thumb 11-24-06, 03:44 AM	There is no such thing as a foxy dwarf. Maybe more bearded and manly, but not *shudders* foxy. You must admit hat Chuck Norris is foxy (even for guys). Dwarves are cild-like versions of him and must be in some way foxy. Okay, this could become a dwarven sorcerer, if they also got proficiency with all martial weapons, armor, and shields, and Weapon Aptitude, plus bonus feats to make up for the MAD...say, 11? Oh, and their spellcasting stat should be switched to Constitution. Nah, Charisma makes him more foxy. I have to question everything you say, Thumb. You're evil incarnate. And I do not want to appear in your ego-pad, even if evil incarnate is a compliment to you. Nothing against you, I just don't like ego-pads (except for the Wergs). I feel like I should quote that "You're evil incarnate" part.
PSchirf 11-24-06, 09:23 AM	You'll laugh, until he breathes fire and chucks fireballs into the battlefield. Besides, a dragon can shapechange, or the two can be forcibly combined through magic (half-giants were made this way, IIRC).For years TSR, WotC, etc. have pumped out Monster Manuals full of creatures which should have been campaign specific. Many people look at the array of creatures and just assume they're supposed to include them in their game worlds. As a DM you're free to include some, not include many, and make some of your own. Trolls are a perfect example of a creature that can be made interesting by looking at classic Troll myths instead of using the "popular" game version. In my game world "pure" races (non-cross breeds) can mate to produce "half-breeds", but those "half-breeds" are only fertile with others of the same parentage. Orcs are the result of Goblin + Hobgoblin mating, Gnomes are the results of Elf and Dwarf interbreeding (before the Dwarf gods put an end to such mischief by making Dwarves extremely infertile in-general), and Halfings are simply stocky Gnomes that can't grow facial hair. Also, Erda has only one race of Giants, but they can change height at will (15 to 45 feet tall) and their skin tone adapts to the local environment over the course of a year or two. None of this makes my game any less D&Desque. I think, instead, that custom creatures and races help make a setting feel more solid.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-24-06, 07:18 PM	You must admit hat Chuck Norris is foxy (even for guys). Dwarves are cild-like versions of him and must be in some way foxy. Dwarves Foxy???? Are you mad??? You're slipping there thumb... Your idea of foxy is my idea of a Box of Wine and a Biker Bar. Neither seem to get prettier in the morning.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-24-06, 10:41 PM	Dwarves Foxy???? Are you mad??? You're slipping there thumb... Your idea of foxy is my idea of a Box of Wine and a Biker Bar. Neither seem to get prettier in the morning. Well, I do have a weird definition of "foxy". It's basically anything that I find remotely attractive (Elves are not foxy, Orcs are). And by "I find attractive", I mean "I find not excruciatingly ugly". Also, I am the final authority on the matters of Dwarves, beards, Demons and greatswords.
theotherdraxen 11-24-06, 10:58 PM	You must admit hat Chuck Norris is foxy (even for guys). Dwarves are cild-like versions of him and must be in some way foxy. Really? An on-line search for foxy dwarf yielded no dwarves, whereas an online search for Elf with greatsword at least yielded an elf with a (D&D) bastard sword. So, yeah, you're more likely to find an elf with manly swords than you are to find a foxy dwarf. At least, that's what the internet tells me. Nah, Charisma makes him more foxy. Charisma can't make you more foxy. You have to have foxy to begin with. The only conceivable way for a dwarf to get foxy is if he ate a fox. I feel like I should quote that "You're evil incarnate" part. You know, thumb, I might actually say nice things about you, if you didn't have that ego-pad...
Gold Medal Jedi 11-25-06, 01:45 AM	Really? An on-line search for foxy dwarf yielded no dwarves, whereas an online search for Elf with greatsword at least yielded an elf with a (D&D) bastard sword. So, yeah, you're more likely to find an elf with manly swords than you are to find a foxy dwarf. At least, that's what the internet tells me. OH DEAR GOD!!!! Googled images of foxy dwarves and all i got was midgets in furry cosplay... now i gotta go bleach my brain.. thanks alot Theo.
Crust 11-25-06, 09:31 AM	Charisma can't make you more foxy. You have to have foxy to begin with. The only conceivable way for a dwarf to get foxy is if he ate a fox... Whoa whoa whoa!! Hold on. Charisma makes you eagle-y. Intelligence makes you foxy, people. ;) Let's remember what game we're playing here. And concerning bad-asses, dwarves, pirates, Chuck Norris, they all take a back seat to Conan. The Robert E. Howard Conan. He is the ultimate bad-ass. No question. :ayyyy!:
teenageghostcouncil 11-25-06, 11:39 AM	And concerning bad-asses, dwarves, pirates, Chuck Norris, they all take a back seat to Conan. The Robert E. Howard Conan. He is the ultimate bad-ass. No question. :ayyyy!: it is all too possible that you will get flamed for this fixed, see below
Crust 11-25-06, 12:14 PM	it is all to possible that you will get flamed for this All "too" possible. "Too." :teach: And yes, you're probably right. Let's wait and find out... :dancin:
theotherdraxen 11-25-06, 12:45 PM	OH DEAR GOD!!!! Googled images of foxy dwarves and all i got was midgets in furry cosplay... now i gotta go bleach my brain.. thanks alot Theo. Hmm...I googled it and all I got was some flowers. Nothing really creepy. Oh, and it's Draxen. Note, in my sig, it says to just call me Draxen.:)
Sim_antix 11-25-06, 01:17 PM	I keep telling everyone to call me "He Who Shall Not Be Named" but nobody ever does...
Gold Medal Jedi 11-25-06, 02:20 PM	Hmm...I googled it and all I got was some flowers. Nothing really creepy. Oh, and it's Draxen. Note, in my sig, it says to just call me Draxen.:) I dont read sigs.. and i think the search engine im using isnt the same you are. I call looking anything up googling.. not necessarily using google.
theotherdraxen 11-26-06, 12:10 AM	I dont read sigs.. and i think the search engine im using isnt the same you are. I call looking anything up googling.. not necessarily using google. You sir, have no respect for the consumer.;) Anyway, future reference, I'm to be called Draxen, and Sim_Antix is to be called "He who must not be named", or HWMNBN...for short... Oh, and yeah, a high-charisma dwarf is more eagly-like, not more fox-like. Charisma has nothing to do with looks.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-26-06, 09:34 AM	When I say foxy, I don't mean they're wearing speedoes or with shaved armpits. I mean, they're awesome. Foxy is synonymous with awesome. EDIT: [Generic flames directed at Crust]
theotherdraxen 11-26-06, 06:04 PM	When I say foxy, I don't mean they're wearing speedoes or with shaved armpits. I mean, they're awesome. Foxy is synonymous with awesome. Thumb, you've melted my brain once already! why you do it all again?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 11-26-06, 07:06 PM	Thumb, you've melted my brain once already! why you do it all again? Because it keeps growing back? :P
Vestigial_Thumb 11-26-06, 07:06 PM	Thumb, you've melted my brain once already! why you do it all again? The fact that you had to ask tells me you deserved that brainmelt.
Gold Medal Jedi 11-27-06, 10:38 AM	You sir, have no respect for the consumer.;) Anyway, future reference, I'm to be called Draxen, and Sim_Antix is to be called "He who must not be named", or HWMNBN...for short... Oh, and yeah, a high-charisma dwarf is more eagly-like, not more fox-like. Charisma has nothing to do with looks. Uhh.. ok draxen it is.. but sim aint gettin no heebedee jeebedee like that. Just too much for one brain to process. Charisma does infact have something to do with your looks. I mean, would you want to follow a bum into battle or say a guy that looks like Pierce Brosnan? And dont give me some bull about "I'd wait to see which is the better fighter" crap, because when you are trully facing an enemy you dont have time to wait. You must act immeadiately or you will die. No, charisma does have a little to do with looks. It has alot more to do with presence but it does still have a bit to do with appearance as well. As for eagly-like im not even sure what that really means. Foxey generally means that a person is attractive and not necessarily cunning, at least here in the states. Where as sly like a fox is the common reference to cunningness and foxhood. Now if our definitions differ then so be it. But that was my take on the words used. Now for a word from our sponsor: Charles Bronson is so much more awesome than Chuck Norris that Chuck Norris is the dust that covers the dog crap on the heel of Charles Bronson's boot. Now that is awesomnimity.
theotherdraxen 11-27-06, 11:38 PM	Charisma does infact have something to do with your looks. I mean, would you want to follow a bum into battle or say a guy that looks like Pierce Brosnan? And dont give me some bull about "I'd wait to see which is the better fighter" crap, because when you are trully facing an enemy you dont have time to wait. You must act immeadiately or you will die. No, charisma does have a little to do with looks. It has alot more to do with presence but it does still have a bit to do with appearance as well. Hitler was short, fat, and ugly. He had an awesome charisma. Many models are very attractive, but there is no way in hell I'd choose one of them over a war-hardened general. The bum in your above example has a low charisma, but it's more than his looks that throw us off: it's his demeanor, his choice of clothes, his speech (all charisma-based stuff) that seems so bad. Dress Pierce Brosnan up like a bum, make him hobble like one, talk like one, and I'll damn well bet that he can still look like a good leader by the time you're done, because, while he does have good looks, what's more impressive is his presence, which is charisma based (unlike good features). As for eagly-like im not even sure what that really means. Foxey generally means that a person is attractive and not necessarily cunning, at least here in the states. Where as sly like a fox is the common reference to cunningness and foxhood. It's a reference to spells like Eagle's splendor and Fox's Cunning. Charles Bronson is so much more awesome than Chuck Norris that Chuck Norris is the dust that covers the dog crap on the heel of Charles Bronson's boot. Now that is awesomnimity. Both of them are mere whipping boys compared to Beowulf. Edit: I don't really care too much about being called Draxen, it just takes too long to write theotherdraxen, and I don't care for the name Theo, even if it basically means that you're calling me God.
Sim_antix 11-28-06, 12:45 AM	Uhh.. ok draxen it is.. but sim aint gettin no heebedee jeebedee like that. Just too much for one brain to process. Sure I see how it is...
orionm42 11-28-06, 10:51 AM	Charisma has nothing to do with looks. Perhaps you should re-read your PHB... CHARISMA (CHA) Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. ;)
teenageghostcouncil 11-28-06, 11:26 AM	Sure I see how it is... I'll call you by "he who must not be named" if u take me out of sig ;)
theotherdraxen 11-28-06, 12:51 PM	Perhaps you should re-read your PHB...;) Let's see Aasimars are good-looking? Yep, makes sense. Dwarves are ugly? Still with you. Beholders are sexy...wait:confused: No, I'm afraid that, despite what the PHB says, clearly Charisma isn't looks. I prefer this one: charisma 1. A rare personal quality attributed to leaders who arouse fervent popular devotion and enthusiasm. 2. Personal magnetism or charm: a television news program famed for the charisma of its anchors. 3. Christianity. An extraordinary power, such as the ability to perform miracles, granted by the Holy Spirit. I know, I know, Oberoni Fallacy, but it's either this or have my players fool around with mind flayers, and I just don't want that in my games.
Sim_antix 11-28-06, 02:22 PM	Charisma is a measure of both your physical attractiveness and you presence. A Nymph has a high Cha becuase she is beautiful whereas a Beholder has a high Cha because he is terrifying to be around.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-28-06, 03:38 PM	a Beholder has a high Cha because he is terrifying to be around. Therefore Orcs and Dwarves should have Charisma through the roof! :P
Sim_antix 11-28-06, 06:10 PM	*snip* an online search for Elf with greatsword at least yielded an elf with a (D&D) bastard sword. Oh it is on like Donkey Kong! :fight!: That is a greatsword and I will fight to the death* anyone who says otherwise. *Note may not result in actual loss of life
theotherdraxen 11-28-06, 09:26 PM	Oh it is on like Donkey Kong! :fight!: That is a greatsword and I will fight to the death* anyone who says otherwise. *Note may not result in actual loss of life He's wielding an axe as well. In 3.5, a greatsword cannot be wielded in one hand, regardless of conditions. Maybe if that elf is in 3.0...no wait, it's a Warhammer Elf. A Greatsword in Warhammer happens to be a Bastard Sword in D&D.
Sim_antix 11-28-06, 09:42 PM	He's wielding an axe as well. In 3.5, a greatsword cannot be wielded in one hand, regardless of conditions. Maybe if that elf is in 3.0...no wait, it's a Warhammer Elf. A Greatsword in Warhammer happens to be a Bastard Sword in D&D. What proof do you offer up that a Greatsword in Warhammer is a Bastard Sword in D&D?
theotherdraxen 11-28-06, 10:41 PM	What proof do you offer up that a Greatsword in Warhammer is a Bastard Sword in D&D? How is the elf wielding it in one hand if it's a greatsword? Greatswords can't be wielded like that in D&D.
Sim_antix 11-28-06, 11:03 PM	How is the elf wielding it in one hand if it's a greatsword? Greatswords can't be wielded like that in D&D. Greatswords can be wielded like that in Warhammer. The miniature was created for Warhammer. The question was are there any pictures of an elf wielding a greatsword and the answer is yes. Just because in D&D they won't allow you to wield a greatsword one handed doesn't make it any less of a greatsword. Thats like saying that it can't be an axe in his other hand because it does X2 crits and in D&D all axes deal x3 crits so it must not be an axe :uh-huh:
ShinoAburame 11-28-06, 11:07 PM	Why not? Dwarves would make excellent pirates. Thier love of rare stones would make perfect for a pirate character, and nothing says pirate like a rapier.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-29-06, 09:44 AM	Greatswords can be wielded like that in Warhammer. The miniature was created for Warhammer. The question was are there any pictures of an elf wielding a greatsword and the answer is yes. Just because in D&D they won't allow you to wield a greatsword one handed doesn't make it any less of a greatsword. Thats like saying that it can't be an axe in his other hand because it does X2 crits and in D&D all axes deal x3 crits so it must not be an axe :uh-huh: But D&D is not Warhammer. If that Elf migrated into a standard D&D campaign, other people would refer to it as a bastard sword. Ergo it's a bastard sword in D&D, not a greatsword.
orionm42 11-29-06, 10:10 AM	In 3.5, a greatsword cannot be wielded in one hand, regardless of conditions. Sure it can. A large creature can wield a greatsword sized for a medium creature one handed (with a penalty, of course).
theotherdraxen 11-29-06, 10:22 PM	Sure it can. A large creature can wield a greatsword sized for a medium creature one handed (with a penalty, of course). I thought that was just a variant offered in the DMG (pg 27)? By that variant, the elf could be wielding a Small Greatsword as a longsword at a -2 penalty.
theotherdraxen 11-29-06, 10:23 PM	Why not? Dwarves would make excellent pirates. Thier love of rare stones would make perfect for a pirate character, and nothing says pirate like a rapier. why does this seem both on-topic and off-topic at the same time? Oh yeah, and enough laziness, people. I found this thread back on page three. Shame on you all.
Rauric 11-30-06, 12:15 AM	Let's see Aasimars are good-looking? Yep, makes sense. Dwarves are ugly? Still with you. Beholders are sexy...wait:confused: No, I'm afraid that, despite what the PHB says, clearly Charisma isn't looks. I prefer this one: I know, I know, Oberoni Fallacy, but it's either this or have my players fool around with mind flayers, and I just don't want that in my games. Cha is either personality OR looks, maybe both for some people. Low Cha can mean your guy is smelly as well.;)
Sim_antix 11-30-06, 12:54 AM	But D&D is not Warhammer. If that Elf migrated into a standard D&D campaign, other people would refer to it as a bastard sword. Ergo it's a bastard sword in D&D, not a greatsword. One of two things would happen. 1. He would not be allowed to wield it one handed anymore, but a greatsword it would remain or 2. He would be given the ability to wield greatswords one handed, possibly by stacking Powerful build and Monkey Grip and then having the DMPC take pity on him for self nerfing that much...
Vestigial_Thumb 11-30-06, 09:59 AM	One of two things would happen. 1. He would not be allowed to wield it one handed anymore, but a greatsword it would remain or 2. He would be given the ability to wield greatswords one handed, possibly by stacking Powerful build and Monkey Grip and then having the DMPC take pity on him for self nerfing that much... What?! NO! The sword would be called "bastard sword" and the Elf a blasphemer for wielding a weapon that does more than 1d6 damage. The Elf would then be lynched.
theotherdraxen 11-30-06, 06:50 PM	Cha is either personality OR looks, maybe both for some people. Low Cha can mean your guy is smelly as well.;) Oh, right. I forgot what kind of thread this was. My bad. High charisma means you are pretty. Force of Personality is for whiners who wanna believe that you can be ugly and persuasive. Remember, sorcerery is skin deep! But D&D is not Warhammer. If that Elf migrated into a standard D&D campaign, other people would refer to it as a bastard sword. Ergo it's a bastard sword in D&D, not a greatsword. Or he would stop being an elf. A 50% chance: it's either him or the sword!
TheWerg 11-30-06, 06:57 PM	What?! NO! The sword would be called "bastard sword" and the Elf a blasphemer for wielding a weapon that does more than 1d6 damage. The Elf would then be lynched. Don't fool yourself. We already concluded that any Elf that attempted to wield a weapon that deals more than 1d6 damage would im/explode on the spot.
Sim_antix 11-30-06, 07:50 PM	Oh, right. I forgot what kind of thread this was. My bad. High charisma means you are pretty. Force of Personality is for whiners who wanna believe that you can be ugly and persuasive. Remember, sorcerery is skin deep! Gods are shallow. Thats why they reward their followers based off of how good looking they are. Clerics get more Turn/Rebuke attmepts per day while Paladins get better saving throws and smite damage based off of how attractive they are. :D Or he would stop being an elf. A 50% chance: it's either him or the sword! :heehee
Gold Medal Jedi 11-30-06, 11:38 PM	Hmm just curious... is there any chance that porting over that warhammer elf, might result in a half elf - half greatsword hybrid? I mean it worked in that movie the fly where Jeff Goldblum ported between two eggs with a fly and he became some weird hybrid. And if this happened what would be the result. By the looks of some of the responses, it seems it would become a blade of whining sissy implosion. Anyone want to take a crack at stating that out?
Vestigial_Thumb 12-01-06, 10:14 AM	Hmm just curious... is there any chance that porting over that warhammer elf, might result in a half elf - half greatsword hybrid? As I think about it, if the Elf isn't married to the idea of being an Elf, he could theoretically undergo some transformative ritual to become a Half-Elf. But, as we all know, the punishment for being a Half-Elf is just that: being a Half-Elf. Also, theoretically, if the Elf were to be imported into D&D without her dying (all Elves are female, regardless of sex (I think that's a female, though)) and with the sword intact, I imagine a certain conversation to go like this: Elf: "Taste my greatsword, beyotch!" Guy: "You call that a greatsword?" *draws greatsword* "This is a greatsword!"
theotherdraxen 12-02-06, 11:59 AM	Elf: "Taste my greatsword, beyotch!" Guy: "You call that a greatsword?" *draws greatsword* "This is a greatsword!" Oh, come on thumb. No one's calling you a hamster: we all know that you're a super-intelligent 400 lb gorilla (as you implied earlier). The elf would probably stop being able to wield it. After all, greatswords can't be used in one hand in D&D.
Vestigial_Thumb 12-02-06, 12:52 PM	Oh, come on thumb. No one's calling you a hamster: we all know that you're a super-intelligent 400 lb gorilla (as you implied earlier). Then why aren't you listening to me? I have facts, logic and intelligence on my side, as well as quite a few logical fallacies. The elf would probably stop being able to wield it. After all, greatswords can't be used in one hand in D&D. Why would the Elf change? Why? Until you explain to me how the Elf herself changes and not the scale her sword is measured on, she would just discover that what she calls a greatsword is a hunting knife compared to what some of the real men in D&D wield.
Sim_antix 12-02-06, 01:12 PM	Then why aren't you listening to me? I have facts, logic and intelligence on my side, as well as quite a few logical fallacies. Because my Kung-Fu is strong :D Why would the Elf change? Why? Until you explain to me how the Elf herself changes and not the scale her sword is measured on, she would just discover that what she calls a greatsword is a hunting knife compared to what some of the real men in D&D wield. The elf and the sword remain unchanged it is in fact the laws of the physical world that have altered when they are changed over.
Vestigial_Thumb 12-02-06, 01:49 PM	The elf and the sword remain unchanged it is in fact the laws of the physical world that have altered when they are changed over. The post I made about the length of the sword was deleted, but when it is loosely compared to the height of the Elf (assuming the Elf is 6 ft. tall, which she is not) it is in the same length category as a bastard sword. Games Workshop gave it an inaccurate name. Games Workshop calling a bastard sword a greatsword is like an anime fanboy calling a Model 37 Smith & Wesson a .44 Magnum.
Whisper_Swiftblade 12-02-06, 03:07 PM	indeed, names game designers give things are not something you can base arguements on, for example if i make up a new game called DWARFS AND CATS and have a 6 foot long 2 foot wide sword in the game called a dagger, it will NOT be a dagger in D&D terms.
theotherdraxen 12-02-06, 03:38 PM	Then why aren't you listening to me? I have facts, logic and intelligence on my side, as well as quite a few logical fallacies. Simple. You're chaotic evil, and you like bestiality. Oh, and I don't trust hyper-intelligent gorillas. indeed, names game designers give things are not something you can base arguements on, for example if i make up a new game called DWARFS AND CATS and have a 6 foot long 2 foot wide sword in the game called a dagger, it will NOT be a dagger in D&D terms. Flavor-text was made to be re-written: Elf: "Taste my greatsword, beyotch!" Guy: "You call that a greatsword?" *draws greatsword* "This is a greatsword!" Elf: "Yeah, well, my sword is still a greatsword: yours is just bigger."
Vestigial_Thumb 12-02-06, 03:53 PM	Elf: "Taste my greatsword, beyotch!" Guy: "You call that a greatsword?" *draws greatsword* "This is a greatsword!" Elf: "Yeah, well, my sword is still a greatsword: yours is just bigger." Guy: "That's what you call it, but it only deals 1d10 damage." *Further smack-talk ensues*
Sim_antix 12-02-06, 03:57 PM	Greatswords had blades between 3 1/2 feet to almost 5 feet. That blade is well over 3 1/2 feet. Its a greatsword. "Insert hamster joke here" :D
Vestigial_Thumb 12-02-06, 04:01 PM	Greatswords had blades between 3 1/2 feet to almost 5 feet. But it can still be wielded one-handed by that Elf, so it's not a greatsword in D&D terms, Q.E.D. P.S. We are arguing in terms of D&D, not Warhammer.
theotherdraxen 12-02-06, 04:14 PM	Guy: "That's what you call it, but it only deals 1d10 damage." *Further smack-talk ensues* Elf: that's just the mechanical properties. Using that as an argument is metagaming. I could call a pick a greatsword if I wanted. BTW: I know that, RAW, and elf can't deal more than 1d6 damage, but since a greatsword deals 2d6, he's not really breaking the rule. Does this mean that elves can use greatswords now, and not bastard swords?
Vestigial_Thumb 12-02-06, 04:24 PM	BTW: I know that, RAW, and elf can't deal more than 1d6 damage, but since a greatsword deals 2d6, he's not really breaking the rule. Does this mean that elves can use greatswords now, and not bastard swords? He can only wield a weapon that deals 1d6, not 2.
Vestigial_Thumb 12-02-06, 04:33 PM	Also, 400 lb, super-intelligent gorilla utterly fails to describe fully my dark glory and eternal magnificence. Worship me, peons! Worship me with undying loyalty and you shall receive cookies! Cookies I tell you!
Sim_antix 12-02-06, 04:35 PM	But it can still be wielded one-handed by that Elf, so it's not a greatsword in D&D terms, Q.E.D. P.S. We are arguing in terms of D&D, not Warhammer. If he were brought over to D&D he would either not be able to wield it one handed or being the mighty champion that he is he might be given some special ability to wield greatswords one handed, either way he is an elf and that is a greatsword.
Vestigial_Thumb 12-02-06, 04:38 PM	either way he is an elf and that is a greatsword. It's called a greatsword.
Gold Medal Jedi 12-02-06, 06:30 PM	Also, 400 lb, super-intelligent gorilla utterly fails to describe fully my dark glory and eternal magnificence. Worship me, peons! Worship me with undying loyalty and you shall receive cookies! Cookies I tell you! Ok you have my undying devotion unto thee, if you can answer these questions 3. #1. Why did the dwarf eat a rust monster? #2. Why do players always prefer death to imprisonment? #3. Why do fanbois always insist that common sense take a back seat to good taste?
Sim_antix 12-02-06, 07:13 PM	It's called a greatsword. He is called an elf. In some other system they could be eldars. Oh wait there are in 40K... Things are called lots of different things in lots of different systems but when something is called the same thign in both, and has the same physical properties in both, then chances are good that its the same.
Vestigial_Thumb 12-02-06, 08:26 PM	#1. Why did the dwarf eat a rust monster? Why wouldn't he? #2. Why do players always prefer death to imprisonment? Why wouldn't they? #3. Why do fanbois always insist that common sense take a back seat to good taste? They don't.
teenageghostcouncil 12-02-06, 08:41 PM	Worship me, peons! Worship me with undying loyalty and you shall receive cookies! Cookies I tell you! do we get dental?
Grod_The_Giant 12-02-06, 08:47 PM	god...what is it about these steriotypes threads that make me want to puke? OF COURSE A DWARF CAN WIELD A RAPIER, AND AN ELF CAN WIELD A GREATSWORD!!! THEY'RE NOT COMMON, BUT THEY EXIST!! BELIEVING OTHERWISE IS LIKE SAYING BLACKS ARE ALL STUPID FARMERS!!! *leaves in disgust after a spirited attempt to hammer logic into the minds of idiots*
teenageghostcouncil 12-02-06, 08:55 PM	god...what is it about these steriotypes threads that make me want to puke? OF COURSE A DWARF CAN WIELD A RAPIER, AND AN ELF CAN WIELD A GREATSWORD!!! THEY'RE NOT COMMON, BUT THEY EXIST!! BELIEVING OTHERWISE IS LIKE SAYING BLACKS ARE ALL STUPID FARMERS!!! *leaves in disgust after a spirited attempt to hammer logic into the minds of idiots* I do so enjoy it when people do this: its the best part of these threads actually there is one on almost every page :) and I will never let this thread die :P
Vestigial_Thumb 12-02-06, 09:08 PM	do we get dental? Yes. god...what is it about these steriotypes threads that make me want to puke? OF COURSE A DWARF CAN WIELD A RAPIER, AND AN ELF CAN WIELD A GREATSWORD!!! THEY'RE NOT COMMON, BUT THEY EXIST!! BELIEVING OTHERWISE IS LIKE SAYING BLACKS ARE ALL STUPID FARMERS!!! *leaves in disgust after a spirited attempt to hammer logic into the minds of idiots* *Points and laughs at the pathetic little human*
teenageghostcouncil 12-02-06, 09:26 PM	Yes. I don't want ur stupid dental I cast accio (harry potter) summoning ur cookies to me as I run away edit: oops, I posted something I meant to post on cat vs commoner
Vestigial_Thumb 12-03-06, 09:17 AM	I don't want ur stupid dental I don't care. I cast accio (harry potter) summoning ur cookies to me as I run away You're a ghost. You're also not from the world of Harry Potter. The cookies are nowhere in sight, as I create them as necessary, you crazy bastard.
teenageghostcouncil 12-03-06, 02:57 PM	I don't care. You're a ghost. You're also not from the world of Harry Potter. The cookies are nowhere in sight, as I create them as necessary, you crazy bastard. you are a sly one thumb, but I will have my cookies c ya later, I'm gonna go steal some cookies from an old innocent bystander
dengarbountyhunter 12-03-06, 04:47 PM	Dwarves do use rapiers. As toothpicks. Elves do use greatswords. As surfboards.
teenageghostcouncil 12-03-06, 05:34 PM	Dwarves do use rapiers. As toothpicks. Elves do use greatswords. As surfboards. elves can't surf I declareth this thread deadth