can a human with average str trip a colossal creature? [Archive] - Wizards Community

can a human with average str trip a colossal creature? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Strogg
11-10-07, 05:05 PM this came up in my last adventure i ran. one of my players wanted to try to trip a massive humaniod creature. I refused to let him for i thought he had no where the str needed to trip him with a humble staff regardless of the - 8 to dex for the enemy's size. in the end i made it so the colossal creature just was uneffected.

so was i correct in doing so?
Mogofeiden
11-10-07, 05:15 PM technically... he can, about 5% of the time when the colossus rolls a 1 on his str check but you're free to rule 0 it.
Board_Rider
11-10-07, 05:22 PM I would allow it if the player rolled a Natural 20 as well.
1red13
11-10-07, 05:49 PM Well there is a -4 penalty applied for every size category above medium which makes a -16 to start with. Rolling either an opposed strength or dexterity the average strength medium creature is up against it but there is a small chance.
Sorath
11-10-07, 05:50 PM You can only trip a foe who is one size category larger than you are, the same size, or smaller (PHB 158).

So a medium size creature cannot not trip something huge or larger. But if it was large, then he can "try" to trip it, although chances may be against him.

My monk trips giants (at least large size ones) all the time. He is strength based though with improved trip, armbands of str, and a sweeping guisarme.

From what it sounds like, your foe would get such a massive bonus to his strength check that your PC wouldn't literally have a chance, although he could try as long as he isn't more than 1 size category larger.
DarkChipmunk
11-10-07, 07:23 PM Also, note that even if he could trip him (which according to PHB he can't, as noted above), a natural 20 on an opposed roll does not mean automatic success, in the same way a natural 1 does not mean automatic failure. Assuming there existed some ability that let him do this, and assuming he had it, a reasonable 45 strength for the giant, and a human with around a 24 strength, Jotenbrud, and +4 for Imptoved Trip and +2 from a cool weapom: Human gets +7(Str) + 4(J) + 4(IT) + 2(Weapon) = +17, rolls a 20, gets a 37; Giant has +17(Str) + 16 (size diff) = +33, rolling a natural 1 gives a 34. The human completely optimized for tripping actually has a -slim- chance in this secific example, assuming such an ability exists, which I don't know off the top of my head.
CeilingNinja
11-10-07, 07:31 PM Can you trip a Colossal creature?
runestar
11-10-07, 09:22 PM Sure, I believe there are ways of increasing your size to at least gargantuan.:)
Strogg
11-10-07, 10:07 PM thanks for the quick replies and i thought it went along the lines on only tripping 1 size larger or smaller.
Count Arioch the 28th
11-11-07, 12:32 AM I refused to let him for i thought he had no where the str needed to trip him with a humble staff regardless of the - 8 to dex for the enemy's size.

Minor nitpicks.

Trip is opposed by strength or dex, since the collasal creature is probably very strong, he uses strength to avoid being tripped.

Also, you cannot trip anything with a staff. You can only trip unarmed or with a special tripping weapon.
Xykon
11-11-07, 08:09 AM There's a formula on strength checks for trip attacks that you might want to know. Assuming that the character doing the trip attack has somehow evaded the attack of opportunity, both characters need to make a strength check which is this formula:

Attacker:
d20 + STR Mod + Size Category difference x 4 + Misc (i.e. Improved trip, powerful build, etc)

Defender:
d20 + STR or DEX Mod (whichever is higher) + Size Category difference x 4 + Misc (i.e. Improved trip, dwarf's stability, powerful build, etc)

Note that it does not say that a trip attack cannot be performed due to size difference. It can be attempted, but it has to be an unarmed strike (triggers Attack of Opportunity from the defender), or a weapon that can be used to perform trip attacks.

Anyway, looking at the size category alone:
Attacker: 0 - medium, no bonus
Defender: 16 - colossal is 4 size category difference from medium

So straight off the colossal creature already have +16. Add its strength and it will show to be impossible even if the attacker rolled 20 and the defender rolled 1. Also note that there is no critical success (20) or critical failure (1) for the rolls, they only apply to attack rolls or saving throws.

I guess my point is, that the attempt *CAN* be made. Its just that its impossible to beat it. And don't forget the attacks of opportunity from the defender and other factors involved like what Count Arioch mentioned.
runestar
11-11-07, 08:24 AM I guess my point is, that the attempt *CAN* be made. Its just that its impossible to beat it. And don't forget the attacks of opportunity from the defender and other factors involved like what Count Arioch mentioned.

Sign...seriously, I think you all need more exposure to the CO boards...:P

Improved trip: +4 trip check
Wolf berserker feat (unapproachable east): +4 trip check, can acquire improved trip without meeting prereqs)
Jotunbrud: treated as 1 size larger for (all that stuff about opposed checks ala powerful build), and it should stack with enlarge person: can give another +4 to +8. Or throw in giant str.
Ransuer adds +2 trip checks
There is another weapon enchantment (sweeping?) which adds +4.
Boost your str.

A fighter20 with permanent enlarge person and str34 can muster a trip check of +54. At least. I am sure the CO boards have no problem trumping this figure with ease. A titan for instance, gets a trip check of just +44.

If not for that crummy rule stipulating that you can only trip targets no more than 1 size category larger than yourself, an optimized tripper PC should have no problems tripping a colossal foe, even with all that opposed size and str penalties.
DM_Dan
11-11-07, 08:26 AM Note that it does not say that a trip attack cannot be performed due to size difference. It can be attempted, but it has to be an unarmed strike (triggers Attack of Opportunity from the defender), or a weapon that can be used to perform trip attacks.

That's not actually correct.

You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

You can find this and full rules on tripping here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip).

Hope this helps,

DMD.
DarkChipmunk
11-11-07, 07:01 PM Something interesting to note. The 'flavor' of the Trip maneuver is not so much knocking the feet out from under someone, so much as it is pulling them to the ground in some way. The traditional 'leg-sweep' is only one fluff method of doing it.
runestar
11-11-07, 08:19 PM Trip is more like yanking them off balance.:)
LFK
11-12-07, 03:01 AM Trip is more like yanking them off balance.:)

Yes, as far as the rules are concerned, hence the opposed strength check.

Even in reality tripping is incredibly hard to do. You can't really trip an opponent engaged in combat against you in the same way that the lump in the carpet always trips you when you're walking around at night.

Takedowns, throws, and rolls are all far more practical and common than even the leg sweep, unless you're using a weapon designed for grabbing the leg and pulling it, forcibly, from under the target. In the end, regardless of fluff, tripping is a (generally) close quarters melee maneuver that places your opponent prone on the ground.

In order to trip something substantially larger than you you would need to make use of mechanical devices on the same scale as the target. Think Ewok tripwires vs. AT-STs.
Empirate
11-13-07, 07:32 AM A very good way to go about tripping is the Wu Jen 7 spell Giant Size. Makes you Huge, Gargantuan, or even Colossal, depending on Caster Level. Also gives according Str bonuses.
jaywolfe82
11-13-07, 11:35 AM See...when someone said an Average Human my first thought was a Strength of 10 or 11, since that's supposed to be the average array 11,11,11,10,10,10.
BruceLeeroy
11-13-07, 11:03 PM Sign...seriously, I think you all need more exposure to the CO boards...:P

Improved trip: +4 trip check
Wolf berserker feat (unapproachable east): +4 trip check, can acquire improved trip without meeting prereqs)
Jotunbrud: treated as 1 size larger for (all that stuff about opposed checks ala powerful build), and it should stack with enlarge person: can give another +4 to +8. Or throw in giant str.
Ransuer adds +2 trip checks
There is another weapon enchantment (sweeping?) which adds +4.
Boost your str.

A fighter20 with permanent enlarge person and str34 can muster a trip check of +54. At least. I am sure the CO boards have no problem trumping this figure with ease. A titan for instance, gets a trip check of just +44.

If not for that crummy rule stipulating that you can only trip targets no more than 1 size category larger than yourself, an optimized tripper PC should have no problems tripping a colossal foe, even with all that opposed size and str penalties.

Don't forget Battle Jump (also UE) and Armbands of Might for a total +6 on top of that.
Edit: Sweeping is a +2, btw.
MrCustomer
11-13-07, 11:50 PM I would allow it if the player rolled a Natural 20 as well.

In some cases where the disparity is too large I use the plus/minus 20 rule. So if someone roles a 20 I add +20 to their roll. So rolling 20 with a skill check of +5 would net a 45, alternatively a 1 would be minus 20, so if the colosal critter rolleda 1 with a +10 modifier then they would roll a total of -9.

In other cases I use logic. To trip something of that wieght would be akin to tripping an oncoming semi-truck. Sure a human could knock one off the road when it hits them and the truck looses control and slides on the now-slippery-with-the-person's-blood road. Similairly the collosal beast stepping on the human might slip on their remains. At the very least ask "Could your leg take the presure of a 5-10 ton creature and not break into ity bitty pieces?"

Using simple logic and it's reasonable to say that you can't trip something that wieghs significantly more then you are capable of lifting without causing damage to yourself, particularly if they are resisting being tripped.
runestar
11-14-07, 02:02 AM Using simple logic and it's reasonable to say that you can't trip something that weighs significantly more then you are capable of lifting without causing damage to yourself, particularly if they are resisting being tripped.

That is the exact same reason why I try not to use logic in my games.

If the player has sunk so much resources into boosting his trip checks, then he should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of his labour, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. I just assume he finds some way of modifying his tripping techniques to account for such inconsistencies and close one eye accordingly...:P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Strogg 11-10-07, 05:05 PM	this came up in my last adventure i ran. one of my players wanted to try to trip a massive humaniod creature. I refused to let him for i thought he had no where the str needed to trip him with a humble staff regardless of the - 8 to dex for the enemy's size. in the end i made it so the colossal creature just was uneffected. so was i correct in doing so?
Mogofeiden 11-10-07, 05:15 PM	technically... he can, about 5% of the time when the colossus rolls a 1 on his str check but you're free to rule 0 it.
Board_Rider 11-10-07, 05:22 PM	I would allow it if the player rolled a Natural 20 as well.
1red13 11-10-07, 05:49 PM	Well there is a -4 penalty applied for every size category above medium which makes a -16 to start with. Rolling either an opposed strength or dexterity the average strength medium creature is up against it but there is a small chance.
Sorath 11-10-07, 05:50 PM	You can only trip a foe who is one size category larger than you are, the same size, or smaller (PHB 158). So a medium size creature cannot not trip something huge or larger. But if it was large, then he can "try" to trip it, although chances may be against him. My monk trips giants (at least large size ones) all the time. He is strength based though with improved trip, armbands of str, and a sweeping guisarme. From what it sounds like, your foe would get such a massive bonus to his strength check that your PC wouldn't literally have a chance, although he could try as long as he isn't more than 1 size category larger.
DarkChipmunk 11-10-07, 07:23 PM	Also, note that even if he could trip him (which according to PHB he can't, as noted above), a natural 20 on an opposed roll does not mean automatic success, in the same way a natural 1 does not mean automatic failure. Assuming there existed some ability that let him do this, and assuming he had it, a reasonable 45 strength for the giant, and a human with around a 24 strength, Jotenbrud, and +4 for Imptoved Trip and +2 from a cool weapom: Human gets +7(Str) + 4(J) + 4(IT) + 2(Weapon) = +17, rolls a 20, gets a 37; Giant has +17(Str) + 16 (size diff) = +33, rolling a natural 1 gives a 34. The human completely optimized for tripping actually has a -slim- chance in this secific example, assuming such an ability exists, which I don't know off the top of my head.
CeilingNinja 11-10-07, 07:31 PM	Can you trip a Colossal creature?
runestar 11-10-07, 09:22 PM	Sure, I believe there are ways of increasing your size to at least gargantuan.:)
Strogg 11-10-07, 10:07 PM	thanks for the quick replies and i thought it went along the lines on only tripping 1 size larger or smaller.
Count Arioch the 28th 11-11-07, 12:32 AM	I refused to let him for i thought he had no where the str needed to trip him with a humble staff regardless of the - 8 to dex for the enemy's size. Minor nitpicks. Trip is opposed by strength or dex, since the collasal creature is probably very strong, he uses strength to avoid being tripped. Also, you cannot trip anything with a staff. You can only trip unarmed or with a special tripping weapon.
Xykon 11-11-07, 08:09 AM	There's a formula on strength checks for trip attacks that you might want to know. Assuming that the character doing the trip attack has somehow evaded the attack of opportunity, both characters need to make a strength check which is this formula: Attacker: d20 + STR Mod + Size Category difference x 4 + Misc (i.e. Improved trip, powerful build, etc) Defender: d20 + STR or DEX Mod (whichever is higher) + Size Category difference x 4 + Misc (i.e. Improved trip, dwarf's stability, powerful build, etc) Note that it does not say that a trip attack cannot be performed due to size difference. It can be attempted, but it has to be an unarmed strike (triggers Attack of Opportunity from the defender), or a weapon that can be used to perform trip attacks. Anyway, looking at the size category alone: Attacker: 0 - medium, no bonus Defender: 16 - colossal is 4 size category difference from medium So straight off the colossal creature already have +16. Add its strength and it will show to be impossible even if the attacker rolled 20 and the defender rolled 1. Also note that there is no critical success (20) or critical failure (1) for the rolls, they only apply to attack rolls or saving throws. I guess my point is, that the attempt CAN be made. Its just that its impossible to beat it. And don't forget the attacks of opportunity from the defender and other factors involved like what Count Arioch mentioned.
runestar 11-11-07, 08:24 AM	I guess my point is, that the attempt CAN be made. Its just that its impossible to beat it. And don't forget the attacks of opportunity from the defender and other factors involved like what Count Arioch mentioned. Sign...seriously, I think you all need more exposure to the CO boards...:P Improved trip: +4 trip check Wolf berserker feat (unapproachable east): +4 trip check, can acquire improved trip without meeting prereqs) Jotunbrud: treated as 1 size larger for (all that stuff about opposed checks ala powerful build), and it should stack with enlarge person: can give another +4 to +8. Or throw in giant str. Ransuer adds +2 trip checks There is another weapon enchantment (sweeping?) which adds +4. Boost your str. A fighter20 with permanent enlarge person and str34 can muster a trip check of +54. At least. I am sure the CO boards have no problem trumping this figure with ease. A titan for instance, gets a trip check of just +44. If not for that crummy rule stipulating that you can only trip targets no more than 1 size category larger than yourself, an optimized tripper PC should have no problems tripping a colossal foe, even with all that opposed size and str penalties.
DM_Dan 11-11-07, 08:26 AM	Note that it does not say that a trip attack cannot be performed due to size difference. It can be attempted, but it has to be an unarmed strike (triggers Attack of Opportunity from the defender), or a weapon that can be used to perform trip attacks. That's not actually correct. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can find this and full rules on tripping here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip). Hope this helps, DMD.
DarkChipmunk 11-11-07, 07:01 PM	Something interesting to note. The 'flavor' of the Trip maneuver is not so much knocking the feet out from under someone, so much as it is pulling them to the ground in some way. The traditional 'leg-sweep' is only one fluff method of doing it.
runestar 11-11-07, 08:19 PM	Trip is more like yanking them off balance.:)
LFK 11-12-07, 03:01 AM	Trip is more like yanking them off balance.:) Yes, as far as the rules are concerned, hence the opposed strength check. Even in reality tripping is incredibly hard to do. You can't really trip an opponent engaged in combat against you in the same way that the lump in the carpet always trips you when you're walking around at night. Takedowns, throws, and rolls are all far more practical and common than even the leg sweep, unless you're using a weapon designed for grabbing the leg and pulling it, forcibly, from under the target. In the end, regardless of fluff, tripping is a (generally) close quarters melee maneuver that places your opponent prone on the ground. In order to trip something substantially larger than you you would need to make use of mechanical devices on the same scale as the target. Think Ewok tripwires vs. AT-STs.
Empirate 11-13-07, 07:32 AM	A very good way to go about tripping is the Wu Jen 7 spell Giant Size. Makes you Huge, Gargantuan, or even Colossal, depending on Caster Level. Also gives according Str bonuses.
jaywolfe82 11-13-07, 11:35 AM	See...when someone said an Average Human my first thought was a Strength of 10 or 11, since that's supposed to be the average array 11,11,11,10,10,10.
BruceLeeroy 11-13-07, 11:03 PM	Sign...seriously, I think you all need more exposure to the CO boards...:P Improved trip: +4 trip check Wolf berserker feat (unapproachable east): +4 trip check, can acquire improved trip without meeting prereqs) Jotunbrud: treated as 1 size larger for (all that stuff about opposed checks ala powerful build), and it should stack with enlarge person: can give another +4 to +8. Or throw in giant str. Ransuer adds +2 trip checks There is another weapon enchantment (sweeping?) which adds +4. Boost your str. A fighter20 with permanent enlarge person and str34 can muster a trip check of +54. At least. I am sure the CO boards have no problem trumping this figure with ease. A titan for instance, gets a trip check of just +44. If not for that crummy rule stipulating that you can only trip targets no more than 1 size category larger than yourself, an optimized tripper PC should have no problems tripping a colossal foe, even with all that opposed size and str penalties. Don't forget Battle Jump (also UE) and Armbands of Might for a total +6 on top of that. Edit: Sweeping is a +2, btw.
MrCustomer 11-13-07, 11:50 PM	I would allow it if the player rolled a Natural 20 as well. In some cases where the disparity is too large I use the plus/minus 20 rule. So if someone roles a 20 I add +20 to their roll. So rolling 20 with a skill check of +5 would net a 45, alternatively a 1 would be minus 20, so if the colosal critter rolleda 1 with a +10 modifier then they would roll a total of -9. In other cases I use logic. To trip something of that wieght would be akin to tripping an oncoming semi-truck. Sure a human could knock one off the road when it hits them and the truck looses control and slides on the now-slippery-with-the-person's-blood road. Similairly the collosal beast stepping on the human might slip on their remains. At the very least ask "Could your leg take the presure of a 5-10 ton creature and not break into ity bitty pieces?" Using simple logic and it's reasonable to say that you can't trip something that wieghs significantly more then you are capable of lifting without causing damage to yourself, particularly if they are resisting being tripped.
runestar 11-14-07, 02:02 AM	Using simple logic and it's reasonable to say that you can't trip something that weighs significantly more then you are capable of lifting without causing damage to yourself, particularly if they are resisting being tripped. That is the exact same reason why I try not to use logic in my games. If the player has sunk so much resources into boosting his trip checks, then he should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of his labour, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. I just assume he finds some way of modifying his tripping techniques to account for such inconsistencies and close one eye accordingly...:P