Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mecra 06-27-04, 11:26 AM	Case in point... Can a true neutral cleric take Darkbolt [Evil] or any spell from the Vile Darkness just because he is neutral? Do you think that if a neutral cleric keeps using [Evil] spells that he might start changing to an Evil alignment? Basically, can neutral characters take spells from Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness just because they are neutral or do you need to be Evil or Good to take spells from those appropriate books?
Eltheynn 06-27-04, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by Mecra Case in point... Can a true neutral cleric take Darkbolt [Evil] or any spell from the Vile Darkness just because he is neutral? Do you think that if a neutral cleric keeps using [Evil] spells that he might start changing to an Evil alignment? Basically, can neutral characters take spells from Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness just because they are neutral or do you need to be Evil or Good to take spells from those appropriate books? #1: What's his Deity's alignment? Clerics can't cast spells with Alignment Descriptors opposed to the Alignment of their dieties, so you could only cast certain spells if you're a Neutral Cleric of a True Neutral Deity (TN clerics of NG deities can't cast Evil spells, IIRC). #2: IMC, not only might he change alignments over time, he WILL (YMMV, however). Unless you're any kind of Evil, using Evil spells (and/or doing other Evil things) will have you slowly turning to Evil.
MetalGemini 06-27-04, 12:27 PM	I think the True Neutral cleric can cast [Evil] spells without a problem. Casting a [Good] or [Evil] spell won't make a caster good or evil. If that was the case, every time any Neutral cleric cast a Protection vs. [Any] spell, they would immediately start deviating towards that alignment. That seems to defeat the purpose of being neutral. And since there are no [Neutral] spells, a neutral cleric just needs to use the spells with alignment desciptors wisely. I mean, you can't make a True Neutral cleric become Neutral Good because he wanders into a haunted graveyard and starts casting Protection from Evil or Magic Circle Against Evil. How the character uses the spells is more important than the descriptor. So if your TN cleric starts casting Darkbolt at innocent children or slaying paladins, ya, he'll start becoming evil. But if he uses it to slay orcs and maurading baddies, he's ok.
hekker 06-27-04, 12:55 PM	well, I don't know the spell in question, but I know that the BovD says somewhere that a spell only gets [evil] if the only thing you can do with it is evil. That is, a fireball is not evil. You can sure do evil things with it, but you can also just create nice firework :r: :w: :r: :w: :u: However, [evil] spells (according to the BovD) can ONLY be used to do evil things. THat means, that if a character consistently casts evil spells, he will be evil. He won't change alignment for casting pro. Good once or twice, but he will if het casts multiple undead-creation spell each day.
Mecra 06-27-04, 05:46 PM	Thanks for the replies. The character in question is a Cleric of IO thus he's neutral for a neutral god. We pretty much thought that he COULD cast said spell, but that over time it would cause him to slowly change over to an Evil alignment because as everyone pointed out, "Tapping into an evil power is an evil act in and of itself, no matter what the effects or the reason for using the power might be." p.77 from BoVD. Unfortunately, the cleric character STILL says that he should be able to cast Darkbolt [Evil] as many times as he wants without punishment. Any other views or points would be appreciated.
Nedlum 06-27-04, 06:31 PM	I'd say that the AL should be left up to the charecter. However, if he wants to keep TN, he should ballance out the Darkbolts with some good deeds. Perhaps one deed per two bolts.
Silimaure 06-27-04, 06:39 PM	Basically, if the book says tapping into evil power is an evil act, and the pc knows this but keeps casting it, I would start counting how evil he gets and make the appropraite shift.
Zairin 06-27-04, 07:55 PM	I don't really see a big deal with it as a general rule. Casting an evil spell does not automatically make a character evil. It may nudge them that way, but it doesn't automatically change their alignment. I kind of agree that he should have to do something to balance it. Maybe only cast it when he is really angry or when a comrade falls. A little RP behind the touch of darkness. With him being so adamant about it, it seems that he just thinks that clerics don't have enough low-level, moderate-damage spells. That's kind of the nature of the beast. You have to take into account though that the reason Darkbolt stuns is that they feel "overwhelming evil". Honestly, I'd just make him RP a reason for a neutral person to throw balls of darkness.
Amaron Blackthorn 06-27-04, 09:31 PM	I wouldnt think so!
SmallPumpkinMan 06-28-04, 01:50 AM	Nyeh, casting a spell should not really change your alignment just because it has the evil descriptor. However most spells have the evil descriptor for a reason (causing unecessary pain etc.) If you run a hack n' slash game, forget about, people should be able to play dodgy neutral characters without GMs getting uppity about it. However, if you are playing in a game where roleplaying is a consideration, it should be noted that any good NPCs, especially good clerics wil be extremly put off by his using spell, roleplay out how creepy looking the spell is, and how "polite company" is disgusted by it/looks down on it. Also he may very well be approached by Evil organisations considering him for joining, or if he gains a reputation for being dodgy, he may very well be made a fall guy for certain organisations because people already believe he's dodgy. Don't go overboard though, it shouldn't be a big thing, and don't use OOG stuff, just show that Hero's in your world consider using spells with an evil descriptor the same way you, as the GM do.
Sarta 06-28-04, 08:20 AM	I'd say that a neutral god would not grant spells such as the ones in BoVD. However, were a neutral cleric to worship an evil one, he or she would have access to these spells and using them could and would sooner or later change this cleric's alignment to evil. Sarta
PSchirf 06-28-04, 09:33 AM	Sarta has the best and most correct response here. Simply don't permit non-evil gods to grant spells specifically listed as evil in BoVD and don't permit non-good gods to grant spells specifically listed as good in BoED.
Krelios 06-28-04, 09:48 AM	True Neutral Clerics of True Neutral deities can cast any spells on their list, regardless of alignment descriptor. Those deities don't prevent any alignment based spells, because they're Neutral. Unfortunately, the cleric character STILL says that he should be able to cast Darkbolt [Evil] as many times as he wants without punishment. He's right to some extent. The casting of the spell itself will have no effect on his alignment. However, what he's doing with the spell will most definately have an effect. Just as there's a difference between killing in a justified war and murdering an innocent, alignment is always and 100% about motives. It's more important why a character does something than what he or she actually does.
Mecra 06-28-04, 10:25 AM	Krelios, While I do agree he should be able to cast spells from the [Good] and [Evil] descriptor, I don't necessarily agree that only his motives should affect his alignment. The BoVD says that tapping into an evil power is an evil act, regardless of motives or such. Now, while it is true that he is Neutral, this alignment can't be used as a skeleton key to get anywhere he wants. He's not affected by a Paladin's code, he's not affected by a thief's code, and he's not affected by any alignment system unless the DM places a major RP element that causes him difficulty. (Such as having a town welcome a Paladin and just nod at the Cleric.) But I don't like that option as much as others. The main RP problem is that the group is currently in a realm that consists of magically seperated islands. (Each island sometimes has a city or small village.) Thus, giving the character a shady reputation is kinda hard to do since the islands are isolated from each other.
Krelios 06-28-04, 02:46 PM	While I do agree he should be able to cast spells from the [Good] and [Evil] descriptor, I don't necessarily agree that only his motives should affect his alignment. The BoVD says that tapping into an evil power is an evil act, regardless of motives or such.The BoVD assumes a black and white alignment system--I can't do that in my games without it feeling unreal. I respect your decision to use that system in your games and if that's the assumption, you're decision about the spell corrupting the wielder, regardless of intent, is probably correct. I generally disagree with 90% of the fluff in the BoVD and BoED, that doesn't mean I'm smarter or more correct than people who don't disagree.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-28-04, 09:04 PM	Well, I'm the opposite from Krelios, I agree with 90% of the fluff from BoVD and BoED. (the 10% is the idea that eating humanoids is always evil, and that good must grant mercy, no matter how many times they are betrayed. The latter is actually contradicted a few times in the book, but that's another topic altogether.) Like Krelios, however, I make no claims of superiority when stating this opinion. Anyway, In my opinion. it would depend on how neutral the cleric is. Is he neutral because he beleives in balance? (Obad-hai neutral), or is he neutral because he just doesn't care enough to be any alignment? (Boccob neutral) If he's a balanced neutral, then if he casts an evil spell, he should cast a good spell later to balance it out, because casting good spells bring good into the world, casting evil spells bring evil in the world. Neither force should be too powerful on the prime, therefore, the neutral cleric should be cautious to balance it out. If it's a "I don't give a rat's ass" type of neutral, then it doesn't matter. I'd say if that's the type of neutral you're talking about, he can cast darkbolt as many times as he sees fit. That type of neutral means you can use any means you want to attain your goals. It'[s nothing personal, just business. If he's extremely malicious about it, then yes, change his alignment to evil. However, if he uses it only on enemeis of the faith, or those who attack him first, then all bets are off, he can do whatever he feels is needed. According to the "who cares" school of true neutrality, you leave people alone, but if they mess with you, all bets are off, in my opinion. I am unsure which neutral Io is, so I'll let you answer that for yourself.
Simetrical 06-28-04, 10:35 PM	According to the "who cares" school of true neutrality, you leave people alone, but if they mess with you, all bets are off, in my opinion. ~Count Arioch the 28th "All bets are off"? So, you could then feel free to torture them to death or commit any other evil act against them just because they messed with you first, and not suffer any alignment change? But if you darkbolted someone without provocation, you would shift toward evil? What about good acts? Are those only good for such a person if the recipient helped you out first, or are they never good due to lack of good intent?
Eightbitmage 06-28-04, 10:56 PM	Honestly with a spell like dark bolt, i would have to say that using it causes a minor shift toward evil. You are essentially hurling a ball of evil at your enemy. Yes, while roleplaying is a big factor in alignment, you also have to remember that spells should have more of an effect in game than just xdx damage and a status effect. If someone cast darkbolt enough times, i would probably tell them that their character is becoming corrupted by the evil that they are conjuring. I would also tell them that they either have to roleplay as someone shifting toward evil, and eventually become totally evil, or they can stop casting evil spells. Now why is it this way for evil, but someone who casts good spells wont turn good? Well its simple, its difficult to be good, but easy to become evil. Evil always represnents the easy or cruel way. So simply casting evil spells will lead you down that path, while casting good spells will have little to no alignment bearing. Personally i would also not allow a neutral god to grant a spell that strongly evil or good.
Karui_Kage 06-29-04, 12:07 AM	Dunno what everyone's said, so I'll just summarize this: 1. He can cast any spell out of the BoVD if it is neither Evil nor Vile. 2. He can cast any Evil spell so long as his deity is Neutral or Evil. 3. He cannot cast any Vile spell because those require the caster to be Evil. Hope that helps.
Twisted Puppy 06-29-04, 08:54 AM	I'll agree with Sarta. Also, to me, a cleric wanting to use spells from BoVD would shift toward evil - slightly at first, but the more he used the spells the more he would shift. Somewhere in the BoVD (don't have books with me) I recall seeing that all of the spells in the published BoVD are spells that are found in the wondrous item BoVD. There is also a caution in the intro about not letting your players use the book. I know it's tough to keep them from buying it and looking at it, but that doesn't mean you MUST let them use what is in there.
That_Amish_Guy 06-29-04, 09:05 AM	It all depends on if he turns undead or commands them. Since he started off as neutral, he'd have to pick if he channels positive or negitive energy. I'd rule that he couldn't cast spells of the opposite nature. Also, I don't believe that cast either one would shift his alignment one way or the next..... it would all depend on his actions.
Aesyka the Forlorn 06-29-04, 12:55 PM	I wouldn't allow it IMC. The spell description declares that darkbolt delivers two types of damage, cold and "unspecified subtype." It's that second kind of damage that clinches it for me--that's pure magical energy doing the damage, and since the descriptors are "darkness, evil," I'd be inclined to rule it's evil energy. Second, there's the Fortitude save vs. stunning; that reads to me as pain. So we have a spell that fires a bolt of cold darkness at a target, causes pain, potentially stuns, and does two distinct types of damage. Anyone using the spell is therefore willfully doing both of those things--causing both pain and harm. Certainly, a TN God wouldn't be granting that spell to a TN cleric. If you did allow it, then I'd most certainly move the cleric to NE, IMHO. As for your basic question, IMC, there's no way I'd let a TN cleric go mucking about in BoVD. BoVD is for evil PC/NPCs, and TN scanning pages seems very much to me like a player trying to get around their alignment.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-30-04, 08:03 AM	Originally posted by Simetrical So, you could then feel free to torture them to death or commit any other evil act against them just because they messed with you first, and not suffer any alignment change? Not without a damn good reason. If the being had information that the tN character needed, then yes, he could do whatever it took to get that information. After getting the info, he would either kill him swiftly, or let him go, depending on what seemed like the best thing to do at the time. But torturing someone to death is generally a illogical and inneficient, a TN wouldn't do it just for minor reasons, it takes too much time, and it's easier to just kioll them. But if you darkbolted someone without provocation, you would shift toward evil? Yes. Killing someone in cold blood is evil. What about good acts? Are those only good for such a person if the recipient helped you out first, or are they never good due to lack of good intent? [/B] A TN would help the person if it benefitted himself, and not really care otherwise. That's neither good nor evil.
torchflame 06-30-04, 08:49 AM	I see some differences in views of neutrality from my own. Your "doesn't give a rat's ass" neutral is more like what I would call CN. You're still correct about there being two TN types, though. One type strives for balance; the other type is where we disagree. I would say that neutral character is a realist. That character steers away from good and evil, law and chaos. this is reality. And I would also say whether the charracter turns or rebukes undead has a major role in what spells s/he can cast. I would not allow a neutral character who turns undead to cast [evil] spells, nor would I allow a neutral character who rebukes undead to cast [good] spells. When a neurtral cleric is created they decide whether they want to channel positive or negative energy. I say they're stuck with that choice, the neutral alignment is not a free extra abilities tool. A neutral cleric should have the same abilities as a good or evil cleric, they just have to decide which kind they want. Neutrality is handy in this case since it allows a good/neutral party access to evil abilities, so long as they're willing to put up with all the villagers being uneasy around Bob.