Can a VOP character be raised/resurected? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a VOP character be raised/resurected? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Juzzman
12-11-05, 07:20 PM Since they cant own or amass personal wealth, and have nothing of value to sell, where can they get the funds to come back from death? and could they even justify the huge expenditure of money involved, when the same sum could do so much for others?
CryoSilver
12-11-05, 07:25 PM The other party members would need to chip in the cash.
Gleddon
12-11-05, 07:26 PM It's not like they can stop party members from trying to bring them back. Well, they can refuse to accept the effects of a Raise Dead or similar spell, but they can't stop the party from casting it. I suppose they could ask beforehand (or maybe even in a dream), but it's the party's perogative to try and bring a fallen comrade back.

Otherwise, like you said they can't amass the funds themselves and carry it in case it's ever needed. The party would have to be willing to shell it out or get someone to do it as a favor.
HalasterAteMyHamster
12-11-05, 07:27 PM Since they cant own or amass personal wealth, and have nothing of value to sell, where can they get the funds to come back from death? and could they even justify the huge expenditure of money involved, when the same sum could do so much for others?
Any church that charges to raise an Exalted being could hardly be considered good. Furthermore, the character himself wouldn't be making a payment; others would in his name. Plus, VoP doesn't stop the Exalted character from performing tasks for services, so if the church was going to be most-definitely non-good on the issue, he could perform some question in return for raising later.

Edit - Oh, and for the record, as far as justification goes, remember that when you're good, the afterlife *kicks ass*. Any reason that'd cause one to want out of paradise is going to be world-shaking, and as such, would have to be worth the loss to charity.
Board_Rider
12-11-05, 11:58 PM Usually, if played "right", the Exalted character would have donated so much and given so freely that most good churches represented by the DM would probably waive the cost for the first one. Or a seriously low price at worst.
Millennium
12-12-05, 05:31 AM Since they cant own or amass personal wealth, and have nothing of value to sell, where can they get the funds to come back from death? and could they even justify the huge expenditure of money involved, when the same sum could do so much for others?
According to the rules of VoP, magic items can be used on your behalf. For example, if a VoP character is unconscious, someone else can pour a potion of cure light wounds into his mouth, and this is not a problem VoP-wise.

Given this, it seems reasonable that if friends want to give him the gift of life, they can do so. Most characters with VoP are not zealots, in the sense that they do not chastise others who amass wealth. A resurrected VoP character can do much more good alive than dead, and so who is to say that the funds needed to raise him are better spent elsewhere?

Besides, as Gleddon said, the VoP character cannot stop his friends from trying to raise him, if they really want to. He can refuse to be raised, but if he does this then the money his friends spent is wasted, and that's something no VoP character would want to happen on his behalf. No doubt the VoP character would prefer to be raised by a church known for its work with the poor, so that the funds needed to raise him will go to the poor one way or another. But that shouldn't stop him from accepting a raise dead elsewhere.
Xaktsaroth
12-12-05, 11:19 AM Usually, if played "right", the Exalted character would have donated so much and given so freely that most good churches represented by the DM would probably waive the cost for the first one. Or a seriously low price at worst.

This is bang on. According to the BoED, if a player goes to a church for a spell, and the church is one of the ones he's donated to, the DM should subtract the amount of the donations from the cost of the spell that the exalted character is requesting.

Honestly, after doing all this good for a church, one would think being the good aligned beings they are, they'd feel honour-bound to help if they could.
WayneTheGame
12-12-05, 11:50 AM Even if the Exalted character doesn't have the funds, if a situation was enough to warrant them raised they could always agree to perform a service or something to the Church in return for it.
WCH
12-12-05, 01:52 PM Any church that charges to raise an Exalted being could hardly be considered good. Furthermore, the character himself wouldn't be making a payment; others would in his name. Plus, VoP doesn't stop the Exalted character from performing tasks for services, so if the church was going to be most-definitely non-good on the issue, he could perform some question in return for raising later.

Edit - Oh, and for the record, as far as justification goes, remember that when you're good, the afterlife *kicks ass*. Any reason that'd cause one to want out of paradise is going to be world-shaking, and as such, would have to be worth the loss to charity.
So a church of Pelor in serious economic decline due to competition from the church of Wee Jas across the street would be considered non-Good for being unable to spend the 5,000 gp worth of diamonds, when they don't even have that much?

Yeah, that's sensible.
HalasterAteMyHamster
12-12-05, 02:02 PM So a church of Pelor in serious economic decline due to competition from the church of Wee Jas across the street would be considered non-Good for being unable to spend the 5,000 gp worth of diamonds, when they don't even have that much?

Yeah, that's sensible.
I know you were trying to be a smart-ass, but that was a pretty obvious attempt at twisting my words. Like most failed attempts at subtlety, it appears pretty pathetic from where I stand.
WCH
12-12-05, 02:16 PM My point is that 5,000 gp is a hell of a lot of money for most people. Not everyone can afford to spend that much. Basically what you're saying is you can't be Good aligned unless you're willing to donate $200,000 to the cause of healing a single person if that person deserves it. Now, certainly donating the money is Good, but you're not Good unless you donate it? Ridiculous.

(200,000 because someone on these boards a while back calculated that 1 sp equals about $4, based on the price of flour or some such)
HalasterAteMyHamster
12-12-05, 02:30 PM My point is that 5,000 gp is a hell of a lot of money for most people. Not everyone can afford to spend that much. Basically what you're saying is you can't be Good aligned unless you're willing to donate $200,000 to the cause of healing a single person if that person deserves it. Now, certainly donating the money is Good, but you're not Good unless you donate it? Ridiculous.

(200,000 because someone on these boards a while back calculated that 1 sp equals about $4, based on the price of flour or some such)
Once again, you're twisting my words. 5,000 gp is *nothing* to a character capable of casting Raise Dead. At level 9 Cleric has about 30,000 gp, and a group'd have far more than that.

Furthermore, in regards, to your last post, there's a *big* difference between "We're charging you for resurrection" and "We can't afford to resurrect you". Straw-men are fun to create, but they don't hold up in the real world.

Exalted character are not very common; very few good people are willing to be whiter-than-white, and even fewer go so far as to take VoP. If a church has the capability to resurrect someone like that, but chooses not to, then I'm sorry, but they're not good. That's like them saying "Yes, we could cast a spell to stop this evil overlord, but we're not going to, because it'd damage our economic stability". To call that mindset stupid would be the understatement of the century.
CzarGarrett
12-13-05, 10:01 AM If the party had a Healing and Resurrection Fund, theres no reason why the VoP character could be raised.

Plus, if a party member dies, theres a good chance you'd be willing to raise them in some way from the goodness of your heart, not the weight of your belt pouch.
celtredleg
12-13-05, 10:33 AM Once again, you're twisting my words. 5,000 gp is *nothing* to a character capable of casting Raise Dead. At level 9 Cleric has about 30,000 gp, and a group'd have far more than that.

Furthermore, in regards, to your last post, there's a *big* difference between "We're charging you for resurrection" and "We can't afford to resurrect you". Straw-men are fun to create, but they don't hold up in the real world.

Exalted character are not very common; very few good people are willing to be whiter-than-white, and even fewer go so far as to take VoP. If a church has the capability to resurrect someone like that, but chooses not to, then I'm sorry, but they're not good. That's like them saying "Yes, we could cast a spell to stop this evil overlord, but we're not going to, because it'd damage our economic stability". To call that mindset stupid would be the understatement of the century.

And if the cleric of Pelor is also VoP???

I just dont see everybody in the land haveing PC levels of wealth. And if the do, much of that wealth is tied up in real estate and such like.

Actually from where I stand it looks pretty ignorant to assume any church has thousands of GP worth of diamonds laying around waiting for somebody to come by and get ressurected.

I am not saying that they dont, just that they must have that kind of resources laying around is simplistic. If thats the kind of game you play, great. But makeing sweeping statements that they lose thier alignment because they arent rich just doesnt fit many games.
Millennium
12-14-05, 10:13 AM If the party had a Healing and Resurrection Fund, theres no reason why the VoP character could be raised.
This leads to another interesting question. Suppose that a party has a "healing fund" and it's set up such that everyone pays some amount out of their share of the treasure. Can a VoP character pay into the fund and then donate the rest of his share of the treasure, or does that break his vow?

The question is largely academic, because there are many other ways to set up such funds. For example, a party could give the fund 1% of the party's treasure per party member, and then divide the rest among themselves. In a four-character party using this method, the fund would get 4% of the treasure automatically, and the party members would divide the other 96%. A method like this would undoubtedly be fine for a VoP character, because "his share" of the money that goes in is never really his at all.

Though even this leads to another question: can a VoP character be entrusted to carry money which is not his? Could that character spend this money on behalf of its rightful owner, if given instruction to do so? This is an extreme example, but let us say that a party has a rich healing fund, but they go up against a foe that's just too much for them to handle. Only one member is left alive at the end of the fight, and that member has VoP. Can he bring his comrades to a temple and use the healing fund on their behalf to have them raised, or would this break his vow?
Loren Pechtel
12-14-05, 11:44 PM This leads to another interesting question. Suppose that a party has a "healing fund" and it's set up such that everyone pays some amount out of their share of the treasure. Can a VoP character pay into the fund and then donate the rest of his share of the treasure, or does that break his vow?

I would think that the RAW prohibit this.

Though even this leads to another question: can a VoP character be entrusted to carry money which is not his? Could that character spend this money on behalf of its rightful owner, if given instruction to do so? This is an extreme example, but let us say that a party has a rich healing fund, but they go up against a foe that's just too much for them to handle. Only one member is left alive at the end of the fight, and that member has VoP. Can he bring his comrades to a temple and use the healing fund on their behalf to have them raised, or would this break his vow?

I would have no problem at all here. I see nothing in the rules prohibiting the VoP character from spending other's money and some cases where it's clearly permitted. (Here's a spell component you need to cast XXX for me.) The RAW prohibit the VoP guy from using magic items at another's behest, however--something that I think should be rule 0ed.
HalasterAteMyHamster
12-15-05, 04:14 AM And if the cleric of Pelor is also VoP???

I just dont see everybody in the land haveing PC levels of wealth. And if the do, much of that wealth is tied up in real estate and such like.

Actually from where I stand it looks pretty ignorant to assume any church has thousands of GP worth of diamonds laying around waiting for somebody to come by and get ressurected.

I am not saying that they dont, just that they must have that kind of resources laying around is simplistic. If thats the kind of game you play, great. But makeing sweeping statements that they lose thier alignment because they arent rich just doesnt fit many games.
Stop twisting my words. Inability to resurrect is completely different than refusal to resurrect.
CzarGarrett
12-15-05, 10:24 AM This leads to another interesting question. Suppose that a party has a "healing fund" and it's set up such that everyone pays some amount out of their share of the treasure. Can a VoP character pay into the fund and then donate the rest of his share of the treasure, or does that break his vow?

I would rule it wouldn't break the vow. Its an agreement to put a share for everyone to use, but no one owns. So the VoP character wouldn't own anything, but would receive the benefit of it should it be necessary.

Though even this leads to another question: can a VoP character be entrusted to carry money which is not his? Could that character spend this money on behalf of its rightful owner, if given instruction to do so? This is an extreme example, but let us say that a party has a rich healing fund, but they go up against a foe that's just too much for them to handle. Only one member is left alive at the end of the fight, and that member has VoP. Can he bring his comrades to a temple and use the healing fund on their behalf to have them raised, or would this break his vow?

I'd be fine with it.

The VoP character does not own anything in this scenario. He is transporting someone else's money and then someone else's item.

The money in the healing fund is not specifically his.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Juzzman 12-11-05, 07:20 PM	Since they cant own or amass personal wealth, and have nothing of value to sell, where can they get the funds to come back from death? and could they even justify the huge expenditure of money involved, when the same sum could do so much for others?
CryoSilver 12-11-05, 07:25 PM	The other party members would need to chip in the cash.
Gleddon 12-11-05, 07:26 PM	It's not like they can stop party members from trying to bring them back. Well, they can refuse to accept the effects of a Raise Dead or similar spell, but they can't stop the party from casting it. I suppose they could ask beforehand (or maybe even in a dream), but it's the party's perogative to try and bring a fallen comrade back. Otherwise, like you said they can't amass the funds themselves and carry it in case it's ever needed. The party would have to be willing to shell it out or get someone to do it as a favor.
HalasterAteMyHamster 12-11-05, 07:27 PM	Since they cant own or amass personal wealth, and have nothing of value to sell, where can they get the funds to come back from death? and could they even justify the huge expenditure of money involved, when the same sum could do so much for others? Any church that charges to raise an Exalted being could hardly be considered good. Furthermore, the character himself wouldn't be making a payment; others would in his name. Plus, VoP doesn't stop the Exalted character from performing tasks for services, so if the church was going to be most-definitely non-good on the issue, he could perform some question in return for raising later. Edit - Oh, and for the record, as far as justification goes, remember that when you're good, the afterlife kicks ass. Any reason that'd cause one to want out of paradise is going to be world-shaking, and as such, would have to be worth the loss to charity.
Board_Rider 12-11-05, 11:58 PM	Usually, if played "right", the Exalted character would have donated so much and given so freely that most good churches represented by the DM would probably waive the cost for the first one. Or a seriously low price at worst.
Millennium 12-12-05, 05:31 AM	Since they cant own or amass personal wealth, and have nothing of value to sell, where can they get the funds to come back from death? and could they even justify the huge expenditure of money involved, when the same sum could do so much for others? According to the rules of VoP, magic items can be used on your behalf. For example, if a VoP character is unconscious, someone else can pour a potion of cure light wounds into his mouth, and this is not a problem VoP-wise. Given this, it seems reasonable that if friends want to give him the gift of life, they can do so. Most characters with VoP are not zealots, in the sense that they do not chastise others who amass wealth. A resurrected VoP character can do much more good alive than dead, and so who is to say that the funds needed to raise him are better spent elsewhere? Besides, as Gleddon said, the VoP character cannot stop his friends from trying to raise him, if they really want to. He can refuse to be raised, but if he does this then the money his friends spent is wasted, and that's something no VoP character would want to happen on his behalf. No doubt the VoP character would prefer to be raised by a church known for its work with the poor, so that the funds needed to raise him will go to the poor one way or another. But that shouldn't stop him from accepting a raise dead elsewhere.
Xaktsaroth 12-12-05, 11:19 AM	Usually, if played "right", the Exalted character would have donated so much and given so freely that most good churches represented by the DM would probably waive the cost for the first one. Or a seriously low price at worst. This is bang on. According to the BoED, if a player goes to a church for a spell, and the church is one of the ones he's donated to, the DM should subtract the amount of the donations from the cost of the spell that the exalted character is requesting. Honestly, after doing all this good for a church, one would think being the good aligned beings they are, they'd feel honour-bound to help if they could.
WayneTheGame 12-12-05, 11:50 AM	Even if the Exalted character doesn't have the funds, if a situation was enough to warrant them raised they could always agree to perform a service or something to the Church in return for it.
WCH 12-12-05, 01:52 PM	Any church that charges to raise an Exalted being could hardly be considered good. Furthermore, the character himself wouldn't be making a payment; others would in his name. Plus, VoP doesn't stop the Exalted character from performing tasks for services, so if the church was going to be most-definitely non-good on the issue, he could perform some question in return for raising later. Edit - Oh, and for the record, as far as justification goes, remember that when you're good, the afterlife kicks ass. Any reason that'd cause one to want out of paradise is going to be world-shaking, and as such, would have to be worth the loss to charity. So a church of Pelor in serious economic decline due to competition from the church of Wee Jas across the street would be considered non-Good for being unable to spend the 5,000 gp worth of diamonds, when they don't even have that much? Yeah, that's sensible.
HalasterAteMyHamster 12-12-05, 02:02 PM	So a church of Pelor in serious economic decline due to competition from the church of Wee Jas across the street would be considered non-Good for being unable to spend the 5,000 gp worth of diamonds, when they don't even have that much? Yeah, that's sensible. I know you were trying to be a smart-ass, but that was a pretty obvious attempt at twisting my words. Like most failed attempts at subtlety, it appears pretty pathetic from where I stand.
WCH 12-12-05, 02:16 PM	My point is that 5,000 gp is a hell of a lot of money for most people. Not everyone can afford to spend that much. Basically what you're saying is you can't be Good aligned unless you're willing to donate $200,000 to the cause of healing a single person if that person deserves it. Now, certainly donating the money is Good, but you're not Good unless you donate it? Ridiculous. (200,000 because someone on these boards a while back calculated that 1 sp equals about $4, based on the price of flour or some such)
HalasterAteMyHamster 12-12-05, 02:30 PM	My point is that 5,000 gp is a hell of a lot of money for most people. Not everyone can afford to spend that much. Basically what you're saying is you can't be Good aligned unless you're willing to donate $200,000 to the cause of healing a single person if that person deserves it. Now, certainly donating the money is Good, but you're not Good unless you donate it? Ridiculous. (200,000 because someone on these boards a while back calculated that 1 sp equals about $4, based on the price of flour or some such) Once again, you're twisting my words. 5,000 gp is nothing to a character capable of casting Raise Dead. At level 9 Cleric has about 30,000 gp, and a group'd have far more than that. Furthermore, in regards, to your last post, there's a big difference between "We're charging you for resurrection" and "We can't afford to resurrect you". Straw-men are fun to create, but they don't hold up in the real world. Exalted character are not very common; very few good people are willing to be whiter-than-white, and even fewer go so far as to take VoP. If a church has the capability to resurrect someone like that, but chooses not to, then I'm sorry, but they're not good. That's like them saying "Yes, we could cast a spell to stop this evil overlord, but we're not going to, because it'd damage our economic stability". To call that mindset stupid would be the understatement of the century.
CzarGarrett 12-13-05, 10:01 AM	If the party had a Healing and Resurrection Fund, theres no reason why the VoP character could be raised. Plus, if a party member dies, theres a good chance you'd be willing to raise them in some way from the goodness of your heart, not the weight of your belt pouch.
celtredleg 12-13-05, 10:33 AM	Once again, you're twisting my words. 5,000 gp is nothing to a character capable of casting Raise Dead. At level 9 Cleric has about 30,000 gp, and a group'd have far more than that. Furthermore, in regards, to your last post, there's a big difference between "We're charging you for resurrection" and "We can't afford to resurrect you". Straw-men are fun to create, but they don't hold up in the real world. Exalted character are not very common; very few good people are willing to be whiter-than-white, and even fewer go so far as to take VoP. If a church has the capability to resurrect someone like that, but chooses not to, then I'm sorry, but they're not good. That's like them saying "Yes, we could cast a spell to stop this evil overlord, but we're not going to, because it'd damage our economic stability". To call that mindset stupid would be the understatement of the century. And if the cleric of Pelor is also VoP??? I just dont see everybody in the land haveing PC levels of wealth. And if the do, much of that wealth is tied up in real estate and such like. Actually from where I stand it looks pretty ignorant to assume any church has thousands of GP worth of diamonds laying around waiting for somebody to come by and get ressurected. I am not saying that they dont, just that they must have that kind of resources laying around is simplistic. If thats the kind of game you play, great. But makeing sweeping statements that they lose thier alignment because they arent rich just doesnt fit many games.
Millennium 12-14-05, 10:13 AM	If the party had a Healing and Resurrection Fund, theres no reason why the VoP character could be raised. This leads to another interesting question. Suppose that a party has a "healing fund" and it's set up such that everyone pays some amount out of their share of the treasure. Can a VoP character pay into the fund and then donate the rest of his share of the treasure, or does that break his vow? The question is largely academic, because there are many other ways to set up such funds. For example, a party could give the fund 1% of the party's treasure per party member, and then divide the rest among themselves. In a four-character party using this method, the fund would get 4% of the treasure automatically, and the party members would divide the other 96%. A method like this would undoubtedly be fine for a VoP character, because "his share" of the money that goes in is never really his at all. Though even this leads to another question: can a VoP character be entrusted to carry money which is not his? Could that character spend this money on behalf of its rightful owner, if given instruction to do so? This is an extreme example, but let us say that a party has a rich healing fund, but they go up against a foe that's just too much for them to handle. Only one member is left alive at the end of the fight, and that member has VoP. Can he bring his comrades to a temple and use the healing fund on their behalf to have them raised, or would this break his vow?
Loren Pechtel 12-14-05, 11:44 PM	This leads to another interesting question. Suppose that a party has a "healing fund" and it's set up such that everyone pays some amount out of their share of the treasure. Can a VoP character pay into the fund and then donate the rest of his share of the treasure, or does that break his vow? I would think that the RAW prohibit this. Though even this leads to another question: can a VoP character be entrusted to carry money which is not his? Could that character spend this money on behalf of its rightful owner, if given instruction to do so? This is an extreme example, but let us say that a party has a rich healing fund, but they go up against a foe that's just too much for them to handle. Only one member is left alive at the end of the fight, and that member has VoP. Can he bring his comrades to a temple and use the healing fund on their behalf to have them raised, or would this break his vow? I would have no problem at all here. I see nothing in the rules prohibiting the VoP character from spending other's money and some cases where it's clearly permitted. (Here's a spell component you need to cast XXX for me.) The RAW prohibit the VoP guy from using magic items at another's behest, however--something that I think should be rule 0ed.
HalasterAteMyHamster 12-15-05, 04:14 AM	And if the cleric of Pelor is also VoP??? I just dont see everybody in the land haveing PC levels of wealth. And if the do, much of that wealth is tied up in real estate and such like. Actually from where I stand it looks pretty ignorant to assume any church has thousands of GP worth of diamonds laying around waiting for somebody to come by and get ressurected. I am not saying that they dont, just that they must have that kind of resources laying around is simplistic. If thats the kind of game you play, great. But makeing sweeping statements that they lose thier alignment because they arent rich just doesnt fit many games. Stop twisting my words. Inability to resurrect is completely different than refusal to resurrect.
CzarGarrett 12-15-05, 10:24 AM	This leads to another interesting question. Suppose that a party has a "healing fund" and it's set up such that everyone pays some amount out of their share of the treasure. Can a VoP character pay into the fund and then donate the rest of his share of the treasure, or does that break his vow? I would rule it wouldn't break the vow. Its an agreement to put a share for everyone to use, but no one owns. So the VoP character wouldn't own anything, but would receive the benefit of it should it be necessary. Though even this leads to another question: can a VoP character be entrusted to carry money which is not his? Could that character spend this money on behalf of its rightful owner, if given instruction to do so? This is an extreme example, but let us say that a party has a rich healing fund, but they go up against a foe that's just too much for them to handle. Only one member is left alive at the end of the fight, and that member has VoP. Can he bring his comrades to a temple and use the healing fund on their behalf to have them raised, or would this break his vow? I'd be fine with it. The VoP character does not own anything in this scenario. He is transporting someone else's money and then someone else's item. The money in the healing fund is not specifically his.