Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dulsin 03-01-05, 07:02 PM	I have four seperate examples all seeming to have the same results. Case 1: Hafling Druid Level 10, 50hp, Str 8, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 15 She goes into battle as a Rino. Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21 new hps 70.In combat she takes 65 points of damage. After all foes are dead she changes back to her natural form to cast a healing spell. Does she die? Case 2: Level 12 Barbarian 100hp Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 12, Char 14 He rages in combat new hps 136. In the fight he takes 125 damage. As his rage fades does he die? Case 3: Party is fighting a fire giant 15d8+75 (142)hp con 21 The party has done 80 damage to him when the giant fails a save versus a polymorph spell. He is now a toad Con 10 new max hps 67. Is he a dead toad or does he hop away? Case 4: Wizard level 10, 50 hp, 10 Str 12 Dex, 16 Con, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 While fighting a spider he is Poisoned. in the initial effect he looses 2 con and during the fight he takes 20 damage out of his new max of 40. He fails his second fort save taking 6 more con damage leaving his max hps at 10. Is he dead?
ksbsnowowl 03-01-05, 07:34 PM	Case 1: Hafling Druid Level 10, 50hp, Str 8, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 15 She goes into battle as a Rino. Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21 new hps 70.In combat she takes 65 points of damage. After all foes are dead she changes back to her natural form to cast a healing spell. Does she die?YesCase 2: Level 12 Barbarian 100hp Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 12, Char 14 He rages in combat new hps 136. In the fight he takes 125 damage. As his rage fades does he die?YesCase 3: Party is fighting a fire giant 15d8+75 (142)hp con 21 The party has done 80 damage to him when the giant fails a save versus a polymorph spell. He is now a toad Con 10 new max hps 67. Is he a dead toad or does he hop away?Dead toad......although IIRC, doesn't a dead polymorphed creature return to his normal form? In which case he would become a dead giant immediately upon dying in toad form.Case 4: Wizard level 10, 50 hp, 10 Str 12 Dex, 16 Con, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 While fighting a spider he is Poisoned. in the initial effect he looses 2 con and during the fight he takes 20 damage out of his new max of 40. He fails his second fort save taking 6 more con damage leaving his max hps at 10. Is he dead?Yes. Edit: note that if he had only taken 10 points of damage, he would be at 0 hp after all the Con damage. If you have taken damage equal to or less than your HD, then you cannot be brought to less than 0 hps through Con damage. Even with a significantly negative Con modifier (such as -5 at 1 Con) you can never have fewer than 1 hp/level (talking max hps here). So, as long as your HP damage is smaller than your number of HD, then you will always have a positive number of hit points, no matter what your Con score is (assuming it hasn't reached 0 - at that point you die from having a Con of 0, not because of hp loss.)
psionichamster 03-01-05, 07:36 PM	case 1: yes, she is now at -15 (halfling form 50 hp, -65), so is dead case 2: yes, assuming he is not healed 16 or more hp before the rage ends (100 hp without rage, -125) case 3: not so sure here... case 4: also not sure... damn, this question is tougher than it appeared at first... since the wildshape and rage benefits are definite in length, and specify that they don't keep the gained hp after the ability ends, those seem pretty clear cut cases the other 2, however, have me stymied, as well namaste, the hamster
Vatras 03-01-05, 07:41 PM	1) When she goes from CON 10 to 21, she would have 50 bonus hit points. Aside from that the answer is Yes. She loses immediately the high CON, removing the gained bonus hitpoints with it. 2) Yes. Aside from that, a 12th level barbarian with CON 18 and 100 hp has rolled badly, average would be 126. 3) I wont comment on that one, because I disagree on principle with a polymorph that can produce firebreathing spellcasting squirrels with an AC of 60 and 500 hp (big bad red dragon rolled a 1 on first save, but made second one). I have also an issue with creatures not changing hp when the CON changes, what the spell does imply (and is also the case with familiars). 4) Once he loses the 2 CON his hp drop to 40 (new max). Now he takes 20 damage, bringing him to 20 hp. Now he loses 6 CON, which means also losing 30 hp, making him a casualty.
Bane 03-01-05, 07:45 PM	Dead in all cases, although the dead toad turns back into a giant, albeit a dead giant. Con loss always takes away from existing hitpoints, you don't lose missing hitpoints.
Rock_Slice 03-01-05, 07:49 PM	I have four seperate examples all seeming to have the same results. Case 1: Hafling Druid Level 10, 50hp, Str 8, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 15 She goes into battle as a Rino. Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21 new hps 70.In combat she takes 65 points of damage. After all foes are dead she changes back to her natural form to cast a healing spell. Does she die? Yes. This is explained in the PH on p146. The extra hp are not temporary hp, and so are not lost first. The reduction in CON score puts her at -15, so she dies. Case 2: Level 12 Barbarian 100hp Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 12, Char 14 He rages in combat new hps 136. In the fight he takes 125 damage. As his rage fades does he die? Yes. This is basically the same case as above. Case 3: Party is fighting a fire giant 15d8+75 (142)hp con 21 The party has done 80 damage to him when the giant fails a save versus a polymorph spell. He is now a toad Con 10 new max hps 67. Is he a dead toad or does he hop away? Answer: He hops away: He is affected by a polymorph spell, which states that the subject heals as if by a full night's rest (15hp in this case). So his new damage level is 65. Hence the toad hops away at 2hp. Case 4: Wizard level 10, 50 hp, 10 Str 12 Dex, 16 Con, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 While fighting a spider he is Poisoned. in the initial effect he looses 2 con and during the fight he takes 20 damage out of his new max of 40. He fails his second fort save taking 6 more con damage leaving his max hps at 10. Is he dead? Yes. Same case as first two. He is now at -10 hp
Dreaming_in_the_void 03-01-05, 07:51 PM	Case 1 and 2: Yes. They're dead. The description of the relevant powers and abilities say as much. Case 3: Party is fighting a fire giant 15d8+75 (142)hp con 21 The party has done 80 damage to him when the giant fails a save versus a polymorph spell. He is now a toad Con 10 new max hps 67. Is he a dead toad or does he hop away? The life form died. Dead. HP loss was he cause of death. Analogize this to drowning. If you die from drowning, and your corpse is polymorphed into a merman, it will still be a merman corpse. The polymorph spell can't be used as a raise dead spell on either end (can't polymorph a dead body into a living one, and upon losing the effects of the spell a corpse doesn't acquire the quality of life). The "Death status" would seem to carry over across the polymorph. Case 4: Wizard level 10, 50 hp, 10 Str 12 Dex, 16 Con, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 While fighting a spider he is Poisoned. in the initial effect he looses 2 con and during the fight he takes 20 damage out of his new max of 40. He fails his second fort save taking 6 more con damage leaving his max hps at 10. Is he dead? Yes. You can lose hit point or the capacity for hit points. Once your damage equals your capacity, you're at zero. Damage beyond this causes death quickly. You would rule a character stricken with a penalty from Dex loss would realize a decrease in armor class, right?
kliate 03-01-05, 08:00 PM	For example 3: Actually, polymorphing never changes a creature's max HP (this is covered under Alter Self, and never overridden by Polymorph or Baleful Polymorph). Baleful Polymorph even specifically mentions that the changed creature retains it's hit points (even if it fails both saves). Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
Merestil Haye 03-01-05, 08:04 PM	Going to differ a bit. I agree that the halfling, barbarian and giant are dead. The wizard may still be alive though. Wizard has 50hp, and as he is 10th level and has +3 Con modifier, he has rolled 20 hp from HD rolls. The primary poison effect reduces his Con to 14 and his hp to 40. He then takes 20 damage in the combat, and we apply the secondary Con damage, reducing his Con to 8. The quick-and-dirty way to calculate hp is that he loses another 30, and is thus on -10 and is dead. This is not automatically right, however. It makes the assertion that the character never, in 10 levels, rolled a 1 for his hitpoints. If he did roll a 1 for any level then he does not suffer a hp penalty for that level for reducing his Con below 10. He still loses the bonus hp that he gained for having an above average Con. Since the standard character generation rules say that PC classes receive maximum hitpoints at first level, that means the wizard gained 4hp for first level. Since the character has 20 hp rolled that means the average hp per level is 2 and would imply that at least twice the hit die roll came up 1. Therefore the wizard has 12 hp, and is on -8hp, unconscious and bleeding to death.
Rock_Slice 03-01-05, 08:16 PM	Wizard has 50hp, and as he is 10th level and has +3 Con modifier, he has rolled 20 hp from HD rolls. The primary poison effect reduces his Con to 14 and his hp to 40. He then takes 20 damage in the combat, and we apply the secondary Con damage, reducing his Con to 8. Correct so far, but the DMG specifically states on p290: "If a character's Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops." The only limit for loss this way is: "1 hit point per Hit Die." Therefore, as the modifier goes from +3 to -1, the change is -4. This means that the wizard loses 4*10 hp = 40 hp. His new max hp is 10. This is the minimum that his hp can get to. 10-20=-10, so he's dead.
aaron3579 03-01-05, 08:20 PM	I have never presented myself as a rules guru, but yea (I think). All of these situations would result in death.
Nom 03-01-05, 08:24 PM	Case 3: Party is fighting a fire giant 15d8+75 (142)hp con 21 The party has done 80 damage to him when the giant fails a save versus a polymorph spell. He is now a toad Con 10 new max hps 67. Is he a dead toad or does he hop away?Firstly, I'm assuming the spell is baleful polymorph, since standard polymorph doesn't work on unwilling targets ("You feel the magics transforming you into ... a frog. Do you accept the spell?"). As already pointed out, the creature retains its HD, and heals as if it had rested one night. 15 HD = 15 hit points, so the ex-giant toad has 80 - 15 = 65 points of damage. It's still alive and active, but has the movement rate of a toad.
Merestil Haye 03-01-05, 08:27 PM	Sorry Rock Slice; I stand pat on my answer. The paragraph following the one you quote on DMG p290 does place a limit on hp loss. It says "A hit point score can't be reduced by Con damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per hit die." This is supported by the section on gaining levels in the Players Handbook (page 58, second column, Para 5 under Level Advancement) which says the same thing. If there was no limit, then no wizard or sorcerer in the game could survive having a Con of 3 or less; they would die automatically.
Rock_Slice 03-01-05, 08:33 PM	Sorry Rock Slice; I stand pat on my answer. The paragraph following the one you quote on DMG p290 does place a limit on hp loss. It says "A hit point score can't be reduced by Con damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per hit die." If you re-read my post, you'll notice I mentioned that. But for the sake of completeness: A hit point score can't be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die. At 7th level, Mialee has 22 hit points when fully healed. Even if her Constitution score drops to 5 or lower, she will still have at least 7 hit points (less any damage she may take) The inclusion of the phrase in parentheses "less any damage she may take" shows that it is only the max hp that has a lower limit. The damage remains the same.
Merestil Haye 03-01-05, 08:52 PM	We agree that the wizard has taken 20 damage. We agree that the wizard has Con 8. What we do not agree is that the wizard has 10hp and is therefore dead. Let's take a firm example. Suppose the wizard has rolled 2 hp for each level, except for max hp at 1st, and 9th and 10th when he rolled a 1. That totals 20, which is what our problem wizard rolled. Agreed? After the Con is reduced to 8, the hit points gained for 1st level is 3, and for each subsequent level is 1. Including 9 and 10, because you can never gain less than 1 hp per HD, even if your Con is reduced to 1. Therefore your wizards hp total is now 12. 12-20 = -8. The wizard is not dead. Yet. He just has 12 seconds to live.
Ualaa 03-01-05, 09:03 PM	CON loss, in and of itself does not kill, as a character cannot have less then 1 HP per HD, no matter how poor the CON score. CON reduction can severely reduce maximum hit points, dramatically increasing the likelihood of hit point loss resulting in death. In all cases, it is the hit point loss which resulted in the death and not the CON loss.
Rock_Slice 03-01-05, 09:14 PM	Suppose the wizard has rolled 2 hp for each level, except for max hp at 1st, and 9th and 10th when he rolled a 1. That totals 20, which is what our problem wizard rolled. Agreed? After the Con is reduced to 8, the hit points gained for 1st level is 3, and for each subsequent level is 1. Including 9 and 10, because you can never gain less than 1 hp per HD, even if your Con is reduced to 1. The CON loss is affecting the current hp, not how they were achieved. If your description were what WoTC had in mind, then it would have been explicitely stated that way. My argument is thus: taking the example of Tordek in the DMG, p290, his hp loss is given as a simple multiple of the loss of CON modifier * level. It is possible, indeed very likely, that somewhere during this process, one of those HD would have been reduced to 1, saving Tordek from further loss at that HD. However, the explanation makes no mention of this, so it obviously can't have happened. Either that, or he rolled at least a 3 six times to achieve his hp total. Additionally, hp aren't connected to the HD from whence they came. If they were, how could a character polymorphing into a lower-HD creature with similar CON have the same hp level?
Nom 03-01-05, 09:46 PM	There are two separate rules limiting how few hp you get from a low Con: (1) PH pg 9: "A character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances a level." This rule applies only when increasing HD / levels. No matter how low your Con, advancing a level will give you 1 extra hp. (2) DMG pg 290: " A hit point score can't be reduced by constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die. At 7th level, Mialee has 22 hit points when fully healed. Even if her Con score drops to 5 or lower, she will still have at least 7 hit points (less any damage she may take)." This rule applies whenever Con changes. Fully healed hp can never be less than 1 per HD. Note that these rules are disconnected. The lower limit is 1 hit point per HD, not "the hit points contributed from any individual HD cannot be lower than 1". Thus, the lower limit on a 10 HD creature is 10, not some bizarre function based on how many hp they gained at any given level.
dulsin 03-07-05, 01:57 PM	Thanks for the great answers. Con loss by itself can not kill you (unless you go to zero) but having damage then taking con loss is allot trickier.