Post/Author/DateTime	Post
geekling 08-27-06, 03:58 AM	OK, guys playing in my game. Keep out unless you want spoilers. Needless to say, I'm rather new at this DMing milarky. Just survived the first session behind the screen a few days ago. Thinking forward to the next session. My lot of 1st lvl PCs, will most likely engage a foe inside a rather crowded cantina. To make things a bit more fun, I was kind of thinking about audience participation from that crowd. While they won't activly get involved in the fight that is likely to ensure. I can see them start peltering the ones involved (PCs and NPCs alike) with things like mugs, plates, breadrolls etc. And there in lies my problem. The way I see it is getting hit by flying debris like this won't actually do any damage. But is distracting. So, am I breaking any rules if I play it like if you get hit while in melee. It's a concentration check DC5 or you'll incur an AoO for being momentarily distracted? Or is that just a really lousy idea?
DonJuanDemarco 08-27-06, 04:16 AM	I actually like that idea a lot. It adds to the common plot device of a fight in an arena. That said, consider the following adjustments: 1. Vary the concentration DC from round to round. It might get more distracting the longer it lasts, and/or it might be easier to ignore if less in thrown or said in one particular round by the audience. 2. Make sure the PC's opponent is affected by it, too. Maybe he's used to it and has a lot of ranks in Concentration, but still. Debris flying into the fight will distract all involved. 3. I would maybe have a reflex save come before the concentration check, meaning if they dodge the thrown debris then concentration isn't necessary. However, the argument could easily be made that flying garbage is distracting even if it doesn't hit you, and reflex saves will just slow the process down even more. So this is an iffy suggestion. 4. Finally, in order to save some time, maybe allow the concentration checks to last for a few rounds. If every turn involves one, the combat will take a lot more real-life time than usual. Of course, if this is going to be a speedy battle, this may not be an issue.
Mitchell 08-27-06, 04:47 AM	It's doable. I don't really know if concentration is the way to go, since it is a caster skill, but a DC5 certainly isn't that hard, and a fair amount of the non-casters will likely have a con bonus anyway. That being said... 1) I almost wonder why bother? A flat 5 is so makeable, that it almost seems like a waste of time. 2) Variable DCs. That is an option. I think being hit by a piece of bread would be almost unnoticed, while having a full mug of drink hitting you, with liquid working it's way into uncomfortable places would be quite a bit more distracting. 3) As mentioned, goose and gander. The opponents would be subjected to this also, unless it was sort of a game that they played and were on their "home turf". Strangers come to town, go to the inn, and the local toughs decide to take them down a peg while the other locals cheer them on. If it is otherwise an even fight, I wouldn't go that route, though. 4) Random hit situation. Just make a list with all the combatants and randomly determine which one or ones are hit. If it is 4 against 4, for example, you could roll a d10, and whoever's number you roll has to make a check. If you roll a 9 or 10, then roll 2d8 and both of them have to make a check. Have fun.
Andrew 08-27-06, 05:39 AM	Just turn the environmental factors into a concealment miss chance and call it a day.
P_Zombie 08-27-06, 06:38 AM	I would take a page out of the Iron Heroes book, and just make like an environment. What is it that you want the crowd at the cantina to effectively act as? If it's tomatoes, beer, plates, etc thrown at them, and they or their foes are in squares within eyeshot, close range, and no cover of the rowdy drinkers, have them make a Reflex save. Fail it, and they are pelted by small objects which distract them. Treat as flanked. If they fail by a certain amount, then a plate or beer mug hits them in the head, and they suffer 1 or 2 points of damage. If they do something entertaining that appeals to the crowd, have them cheer, and then the pelting ends. If they do something that upsets them, increase the save DC to simulate more objects being thrown at them.
geekling 08-27-06, 09:08 AM	Thanks guys, lots of good stuff. Now, yes DC5 is low, but they are lvl 1 characters so for your meatshield with no ranks it still adds up to a 20% chance or so of failure. I don't want to cripple them with this, but enough to just keep them on their toes a little to add some spice to an encounter. Make it a little more than a standard bar-room brawl. I also don't really want to make it so high that there's a larger percentage for the bad guy to fail his first check and get whalloped by four AoOs ending it the there and then. It might happen, of course, but that's part of the deal. But yes, perhaps variable DC is the way to go. DC 1d4+3 or something. And maybe I'll have a rethink about the AoO thing, go more by the book for failing a concentration check...
Furious D 18 08-27-06, 10:50 AM	yes DC5 is low, but they are lvl 1 characters so for your meatshield with no ranks it still adds up to a 20% chance or so of failure If the character has no ranks in the skill, they still apply the ability modifier to the roll. In this case, it is a Constituition based skill, so the meat shield would add his CON modifier to the roll. For a meat shild, it's probably a +1 or +2 modifier. I'd actually bump the DC up to 6 or 7. Also, I'd fudge a roll or two for the enemies so that they lose their concentration at least once in the battle and provoke an AoO. It's no fun for the PCs if the situation is stacked against them, but they'll enjoy the fight more if they benefit from the environment, at least a little. Also, they won't be so mad at getting pelted with stuff if it helped them out. But I like this idea a lot, and I might just steal it for my campaign.
geekling 08-27-06, 12:22 PM	If the character has no ranks in the skill, they still apply the ability modifier to the roll. In this case, it is a Constituition based skill, so the meat shield would add his CON modifier to the roll. For a meat shild, it's probably a +1 or +2 modifier. I'd actually bump the DC up to 6 or 7. With no ranks +0 mod a DC5 = 25% chance of failure, no ranks +1 mod = 20%, no ranks +2 mod = 15% Is my math completely off? But yeah, I think the variable DC that have been suggested is the way to go. For more fun and games. Also, I'd fudge a roll or two for the enemies so that they lose their concentration at least once in the battle and provoke an AoO. It's no fun for the PCs if the situation is stacked against them, but they'll enjoy the fight more if they benefit from the environment, at least a little. Also, they won't be so mad at getting pelted with stuff if it helped them out. Alas! I play online (openrpg) all dice rolls in the open. While it might be possible for the DM to fudge a roll, I don't know how. I don't want to know how. :) We just seem to prefer it that way when it comes to dice rolls. Other things can be fudged, but the dice rolls are sacred. :angel: There are some things I've not mentioned about this encounter (I just know one of my guys are reading this...) They won't just be fighting this one guy, there's his dogs too. Simply put, the dogs will stay well out of the way of the flying debris, no matter what, they're too spooked to go there. So they've got three main options of how to approach this encounter if it comes down to a fight situation. Fight the guy and the dogs, at the same time. Jump up on the tables and fight the guy leaping from table to table. - Avoiding the dogs that way. Dealing with them later. (Or I suppose fight the dogs first and let their mark get away.) Or suffer the risk of distraction if they are within reach of the crowds to throw stuff at them. Mind you - if I go the AoO route and not the loose an action as per the book on failed concentration check this is a bigger disadvantage for the bad guy. If he fails he could draw one attack from each of the 4 PCs. While he even if all of them fail, can only take one AoO per round. Again dealing with the dogs seperatly.
AlphaSquirell 08-27-06, 12:52 PM	I actually like that idea a lot. It adds to the common plot device of a fight in an arena. That said, consider the following adjustments: 1. Vary the concentration DC from round to round. It might get more distracting the longer it lasts, and/or it might be easier to ignore if less in thrown or said in one particular round by the audience. 2. Make sure the PC's opponent is affected by it, too. Maybe he's used to it and has a lot of ranks in Concentration, but still. Debris flying into the fight will distract all involved. 3. I would maybe have a reflex save come before the concentration check, meaning if they dodge the thrown debris then concentration isn't necessary. However, the argument could easily be made that flying garbage is distracting even if it doesn't hit you, and reflex saves will just slow the process down even more. So this is an iffy suggestion. 4. Finally, in order to save some time, maybe allow the concentration checks to last for a few rounds. If every turn involves one, the combat will take a lot more real-life time than usual. Of course, if this is going to be a speedy battle, this may not be an issue. Along those lines, have a successful reflex save lower the concentration DC. Meaning if they dodge it, it doesn't hit them, and is therefore easier to ignore. Maybe add some other "fun" things to the fight. Lots of beer and ale is spilled, making one particular area of the floor wet. Thus, that area requires balance checks. Another area has more rowdy patrons, who start throwing each other into the fight. Thus, there are extra people who do little to no damage, but are still swinging at both parties. Another area has a rogue trying to pickpocket people mid-battle. (hiding amidst the turmoil, hoping to lunge in and loot people while they fight) Yet another area has a bard, who was playing for entertainment. Now he is playing for the badguy. Lets say the PC in his area gets hit pretty hard. Now he plays to boost the PC. He keeps supporting whoever is doing the worst to keep the fight entertaining. Assuming you have 4 PCs, they are ALL making Concentration checks and Reflex saves, but one makes Balance checks on an ale-covered floor, one is trying to fight an enemy AND a rowdy drunk, another is having to fight and avoid getting robbed by a rogue, and the last has a bard supporting him or his opponent. Then, when one person defeats his opponent, he moves to help an ally, and now has to encounter some new threat. (so the one guy isn't getting robbed by a rogue anymore, but now he's slipping on ale) Other suggestions: Up the DC. Even though they are first level, either raise the DC or don't use it. Also, don't make EVERY PC make the save EVERY turn. Randomly decide with the dice. (say, 4 PCs, 4 baddies, roll 2d8, each dice randomly selecting a character) Thus, someone might not have to get hit by stuff at all, and another might get beat to death with mugs. And, if it is DC 5, with NO mods, they fail on a 1-4. That's 4 possible failurse out of 20. Multiply by 5. That's 20 possible failures out of 100. 20% of the time. If the DC were 6, it would be 1-5 for a failure, which is 25% of 1-20. DC 6, 25% failure. +1 mod 20% +2 mod 15% EDIT: Your math would be correct if DC5 meant 5 was a failure. On a roll of 5, they meet the DC, and succeed. You were counting the "5" as a failure as well. (they only have to meet the DC, not beat it, so DC 5 is 20% failure)
geekling 08-27-06, 04:47 PM	EDIT: Your math would be correct if DC5 meant 5 was a failure. On a roll of 5, they meet the DC, and succeed. You were counting the "5" as a failure as well. (they only have to meet the DC, not beat it, so DC 5 is 20% failure) Doh! Of course, that was a total brainfart. Thanks.