Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragonspirit 11-22-04, 09:53 PM	See post #52. This list is a bit dated right now. So, basically some changes I've been mulling over. Some I've had in place for awhile and have worked (others have been ditched from this list that didn't work so well), and some are new. I've been DMing for awhile, and these address a lot of the things that I think have needed some work. Thanks in advance for looking these over. So, without further ado: 1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule. 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Establishes a consistent system for possessions. 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. This point buy system eliminates the randomness of rolls in character creation while providing an incentive against min-maxing of stats 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Enforces the cost of death to make surviving matter. Prevents new characters from coming in more powerful than veteran ones due to the fact they are usually more optimized. 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place. 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. Limits characters more thematically toward campaign. Other material might be used after being reviewed by the DM for balance. 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. Eliminates the loophole toward bypassing this PrC’s inherent disadvantage. 10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. Overpowered PrCs eliminated for balance. 11. Permanency is banned. Reduces the “free effect” info (DM being required to remind or remember to give information that a player has not asked for) that many permanent effects grant, in addition to balance. 12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). Ioun stones normally cost twice due to being “unslotted”. Otherwise, this is to remain consistent with the slot system of these rules. 13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Prevents bypassing of slot restrictions. 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment. 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Keeps characters within a reasonable level range of each other. 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. As with permanency, prevents “free effect” knowledge. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects. 17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. Allows short distance magic movement more readily to offset the effects of banning teleport type spells (see next). 18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). Overland travel is an important aspect of the game often bypassed or minimized by these spells. Rather than a quick spell, the idea of mounts and overland travel will have more meaning and are a greater potential for story arcs and development. 19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). Improving standard items by normal means is reasonable. 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Prevents a means for bypassing normal starting wealth restrictions by using item creation feats. 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic. 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now. 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Prevents overpowered items from entering the game. 25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world. 26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). Same as above, except for feats. 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. This allows a collective reward, and also prevents downward spiral effects with experience. 28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Players are more thoroughly rewarded for successfully overcoming traps, rather than just surviving them. 29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). Prevents other characters for being “punished” for others using item creation, being raised, etc in this experience system. 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders. 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. The primary effect of perform should not be easily emulated by otherwise more useful skills. 32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. Balance. Extra damage for using a weapon two-handed when attacking is reasonable, but double damage is excessive. 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion. 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Items are too universal and bypass basic aspects of the game (food). 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable. 36. Spiked Chain is banned. Overpowered item eliminated for balance. 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. What’s more, “free effects”(like an elf’s auto check for secret doors) are disallowed (no automatic checks). 38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). Prevents new characters from min maxing advantages that realistically could not be achieved by older characters (“I found these gloves of dexterity +6 when I was level four!”). 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Overpowered items eliminated for balance. 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat.
eshadowe 11-22-04, 10:11 PM	So are these situations you have had your players encounter???? Because your list seems vast and with examples, it seems you have had some problems with players....myself as long as everyone has fun, i dont' care, i want the game to be simple, and i have a fair amount of intermediate and beginning players. I think, your rules would be intimediating to a new player, but I could be wrong. To get around stuff like this, i give a 'simplicity' bonus for people that make simple characters using core books. I think when players have to second guess the players handbook it can get confusing,,,,unless your are writing this stuff in the players handbook and crossing off weopons you have dissallowed.
Mordmorgan the Mad 11-22-04, 10:20 PM	1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule.Seems a little superfluous. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Establishes a consistent system for possessions.This reeks of video games. 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place. That's one of the most rediculous things I've ever heard. 11. Permanency is banned. Reduces the “free effect” info (DM being required to remind or remember to give information that a player has not asked for) that many permanent effects grant, in addition to balance. Dispel Magic anyone? 12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). Ioun stones normally cost twice due to being “unslotted”. Otherwise, this is to remain consistent with the slot system of these rules.Kinda takes all the fun out of ioun stones. 13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Prevents bypassing of slot restrictions.And forces PCs to throw out some of thier favorite magic items just because something better comes along. 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment.Is this a matter of preference, or is it that you can't DM an Evil campaign? 17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. Allows short distance magic movement more readily to offset the effects of banning teleport type spells (see next). 18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). Overland travel is an important aspect of the game often bypassed or minimized by these spells. Rather than a quick spell, the idea of mounts and overland travel will have more meaning and are a greater potential for story arcs and development.This is a bad rule designed to mask your faults as a DM. 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic. 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now.VIDEOGAMER!!! 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Prevents overpowered items from entering the game.That's supposed to be your job. 32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. Balance. Extra damage for using a weapon two-handed when attacking is reasonable, but double damage is excessive.That's a hefty nerf. 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Items are too universal and bypass basic aspects of the game (food).That's what they're supposed to do. You've got a rule that makes everyone walk or ride everywhere, but if they get stranded they'll definitely starve because you won't allow theses times. 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable.This allows cohorts to gain too much XP. 36. Spiked Chain is banned. Overpowered item eliminated for balance. 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. What’s more, “free effects”(like an elf’s auto check for secret doors) are disallowed (no automatic checks). 38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). Prevents new characters from min maxing advantages that realistically could not be achieved by older characters (“I found these gloves of dexterity +6 when I was level four!”). 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Overpowered items eliminated for balance. 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat. Those are just dumb. I noticed you have a lot of rules for new PCs joining the group. How many of these PCs do you try to kill and how many die from being stupid? It seems just from these rules that you need to take a second look at the DMG.
Board_Rider 11-22-04, 10:45 PM	1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. I go with max. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. I go with the book or roll myself. Good change though. 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). We currently run something similar except that another PrC may be taken if it's only a 5 or less level PrC. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Too much for me... 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. Players may go "static". That is never change stats or class because they get comfortable. 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Good. If half of the original party dies....start over. 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Don't agree here. 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. Good..keeps it simple, though not for me. 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. No comment. 10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. :eek: NOOO!!! 11. Permanency is banned. Don't undestand reasoning. 12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). No comment. 13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Never done...no comment. 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Same here..but I love playing in one! 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Redundant to prior rule. 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. Glad I ain't the only one who sees it this way. 17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. Not with you here.. 18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). See above. 19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). But no doubling? Gotcha! 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. What about a Monk? They don't need much. 21. Identify uses no spell components. Agreed...but there should be a cost. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. See where your going...but don't agree. 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge Monster right? Whats the DC? Who gets it? 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Again...not for me. But I can see where this can be a problem. 25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Cool. 26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). Can't go here with ya. 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. What's with all the leviling rules? Why not just stick with one as it pretains to death and creation? 28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Good Point. 29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). Not needed IMO. 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. What if they are evil? And at what amount? 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. What?? 32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. Already do that. 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Redundant...the average PC should already have this. What about casting scrolls of a higher level where skill ranks cannot be achieved yet? 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Can't go there with you hoss. 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. No comment. 36. Spiked Chain is banned. What about the diety Kossuth? I don't ban loopholes. If I did than I would ban D&D as a whole. 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Really disabling a race feature....no way hidden doors can be found at first level realistically. What about Dwarven Stonecunning? 38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). I can see that. 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Do you not like spellcasters? Why? You are not going to like the Complete Arcane!! 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Too Much for me
kliate 11-22-04, 10:53 PM	About #18... What about Tree Stride?
Arcen 11-22-04, 11:08 PM	So they pc's are basically going to run around and beat each other with pointy sticks? Can't think of anything else they'd be able to do. I suggest you follow the KISS method and ditch 95% of that crap.
green_yawgmoth 11-22-04, 11:56 PM	MASSIVE amounts of smartnessSo basically, you force all of your players into what amounts to a game of pen and paper FF. Fun! :rolleyes: It seems like you just got your first taste of DMing and your players don't know any better. If I was there I would not only mock you for your terrible rules to your face, but in front of your players. Then I would offer them a real game of D&D. Looks like you forgot rule 0.5: just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I mean, Improved Init banned? What?? Yes, that +4 init sure is broken; I hate it when players get to go first. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Dragonspirit 11-23-04, 12:00 AM	So are these situations you have had your players encounter???? Most of them, yes. Some are my judgments due to things I've read (such as banning the Dervish or Spiked Chain), but most are things I've encountered and found to be unbalanced - or at least, that could be done better IMO. I know that it looks like a lot, but when you consider how many rules there really are in the game, it's not too bad. And with new players, I (or the other players) could help guide them through. Is this a matter of preference, or is it that you can't DM an Evil campaign? Preference mainly, though it might be rough right now to run an 'evil' or completely open alignment campaign. In the future though, I might look into doing one. I have the BoVD, but haven't read to much of it yet. Knowledge Monster right? Whats the DC? Who gets it? Depends on the monster and the respective knowledge that let's them make the check (it's listed somewhere in the Monster's Manual and SRD, not sure where). For example, Arcana governs Dragon checks, whereas Religion governs Undead. And the DC is usually the Hit Dice + 10. (Those are official rules, not my house rules). My change effectively standardizes what is learned - whereas by the official rules you are suppose to get one piece of random information for every five you beat the check by that's not really well defined. What's with all the leviling rules? Why not just stick with one as it pretains to death and creation? The level rules all work collectively (I should have probably put them in one section). Basically, it goes like this. The biggest range in characters I want is a two level gap, the newest character should be the bottom of the totem pole, and I want to keep players from "de-leveling" below a level they have all achieved. Do you not like spellcasters? Why? You are not going to like the Complete Arcane!! Heh... I don't hate them. It's just that magic, because of all the rules involved since you have a gajillion different possibilities, by it's nature has to be more regulated to be balanced than your normal pig sticking fighter :) What about Tree Stride? Just looked that one up. Yep. I'm really trying to make the travel and food consumption more 'real', because there are a lot of good plots that can happen with travelling. As they say, it's often more about the journey than the destination. And remember, even Gandalf had to ride :)
eshadowe 11-23-04, 12:18 AM	Well i just finished a game where a character was a 16th level Sorcerer (With maxed out ranks of cooking) And teleported everywhere. It was great. I didn't have to deal with random/travelling encounters and could really emphasis on plot and characters. Remember one thing, this IS a Fantasy game. I have found that if you force it to be too real, that players get realy frustrated....why should a 12th level character worry about travelling and food. (the food thing, summon creatures and eat them, eat them quick, there you go) I have a good group though and we have a good comprimise, they like tough characters and I don't care how tough they are. That just means i don't have to baby them. I guess in the end, just make the game to have fun. Instead of 'banning' stuff, just ask your players taht you don't want that stuff, except with exception (maybe a wand of teleport with 5 charges,,,,oh god in your world would that be a prize) And make a 'reason' why certain spells don't work. Like the god of Travel and Rest is missing, and that is why travel/food spells dont work too well.....if the players REALLY want those spells in the group, they'll earn it. Just a suggestion.
DrWorm 11-23-04, 12:46 AM	1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. I give full at first level, and give an option of half HD, or they can roll tossing out ones and twos (unless the HD is a d4). Once they roll they cannot chose half. Some randomness is important. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). I see no point in either of these, but at the same time I do not think they are that bad either. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. I see the reasoning behind needing this, as one can only have so much surface area for carrying stuff, but I agree that the method you use smacks of a videogame. Of course it is not that bad, as the video game is trying to simulate the same thing. 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. I really love point buy, but do not like 28. I am more of a 30-36 man myself. As far as an array...I hate them with a passion. It really makes it dull as everyone has a mix an match of the same abbilities. I also do not like to be forced to have a negative stat. If I choose one, then I will for character reasons. I do not want to play a god, but much of the time my characters are generalizers so they are not great at anything, nor are they bad at anything. 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. 29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). All these rules for new characters are making my head spin. On top of that a couple seem to be saying the same thing. I guess I wonder why so many rules for this. 7. Improved Initiative is banned. I will join the masses and say that this is a lame rule. Aside from the fact that I get tired of most characters taking it, it is a perfectly balanced feat. Honestly Rogues are the only class that really abuse Initiative, and frankly they need to becuase of their fighting style. If they really want the drop on characters they will just take Improved Feint instead. 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. 10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. Reasonable and all things I have done. 11. Permanency is banned. 12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). 13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Yaknow the players only get magic you allow them to get. Sure they might make items, but the exp cost should reduce too much creation. 14. No evil alignment is allowed. As I said in another thread I do not ban evil alignments, I ban evil actions by players. If they can provide a reason for the alignment without performing party disturbing actions they they can be evil. 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. Good, I am pretty adamant about this myself. 17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. 18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). These are pretty lame. As a DM there are many other reasonable solutions to get the party to traipse through the countryside. Frankly, though, even if they are avoiding it...well banning these modes of transprotation is brutal railroading. 19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). How does this make sense with the above rule? 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Prevents a means for bypassing normal starting wealth restrictions by using item creation feats. heavyhanded, but reasonable. I wonder why this is needed though? 21. Identify uses no spell components. I think that most uses of spell components should be glossed over. If a player is captured and has all their goods taken away, then it is an issue, but otherwise it should judt be assumed that a spellcaster has what they need. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Not sure I understand this one. 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). I think this is a great use of knwledge skills and is a great way to encourage their use. 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. I am not sure what you mean by "non-standard" 25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Good call, very similar to my rulings. 26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). Good, very good. 28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. I like recognizing rogues for doing things aside from combat, but then they get a boost that no other class does. I mean it is not like you give the fighter more exp for doing more damage in combat. 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. Heavy handed, but reasonable. 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. Seems like a non-issue, but no harm done. 32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. This is horrible. Power Attack is not unbalanced. 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). I like this alot, with one caveat: The skill point number is so small, and your attribute system so low power, that this will mean they are lame at other skills. I think encouraging Kowledge skills is great, but not at the detriment of other skills. It makes it seem like a punnishment. 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Lame, uber lame. I play this game for fun and advneture and there is neither in houkeeping food stores. The game should not be a game of basic needs. 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. If they take part in combat an NPC should take what ever fraction they represent in exp. If they are hired in to a 4 person party they should be taking 1/5th the exp. 36. Spiked Chain is banned. Heavy handed, but reasonable. 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. First of all I can think of no reason, besides racial or class special abbilities, why search would be an auto-check. Spot is an auto-check, sure, but not search. Second of all- races and classes that are granted auto-checks are balanced to get these special abbilities, so they need something to offset this. Honestly I think this is an unreasonable houserule and any need for it can be dealt with in game as the DM. 38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). I have never had an issue with this, but fine. 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Again...you control when you PCs get such items. 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Horrible. Magic should rarely need such targeting, and even if it does it should not act as a grenade object if it misses. A spell should explode exactly where the caster decides...it is part of the spell.
KismetRose 11-23-04, 12:49 AM	4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally unslotted items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. This concept troubles me. There's only so much a character can carry and use in any case. There are only so many magical items a character can wear, too. Why restrict any further? 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. Players can enjoy the randomness of stats and the possiblity that they can roll really well and have awesome results. You can, if you wish, place a total point cap on characters, but this seems a little too restrictive to me. 7. Improved Initiative is banned. So use monsters with high init scores, use surprise rounds, instead of banning a feat. 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. If a character is high enough level, it is reasonable to assume they would have made some of their own gear, if they have the gold. You can monitor what they say they have made, but folks don't just take item creation feats to make things to sell - they take the feats to make things for themselves. 21. Identify uses no spell components. There should be a balance between no cost and a prohibitive one. Knowledge may be power, but it isn't always free. 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). I have to agree that this does seem like a very video-game inspired effect. What's worse is that it will take a lot of mystery and suspense out of your game because your players will know too much - just by making a Knowledge check. Knowledge checks do have limits. 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. I don't see monks fitting in that list, really, and I don't like the concept at all. Characters should want to tithe, and should not be penalized if they can't tithe because they don't have enough gold at the time. 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. Characters on average do not earn that much from Perform and like checks. Why not let a good acrobatic tumbler have a go? It's not something everyone can do. 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). The sorcerer's whole concept is that magic comes to them naturally, without their having to be taught in any way. How would this apply to them? And the bard, whose magic also comes from within and not per se from knowledge? The druid could be considered a caster that is based on instinct. Why should a cleric's knowledge of religion restrict their ability to channel spells granted by their god? If you want these knowledge skills to be more valuable and used in your game, make them necessary. Place your characters in situations where they will need to make checks based on the knowledge skills. Make the outcomes matter. 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. As I understand it, cohorts and NPCs can only be certain levels, or they will no longer havemuch reason to follow the player character. The DMG says that the character can lead only so many characters of the specified levels. They don't generally need experience, because if they level, the character may not be able to lead them anymore. In my game, cohorts level when their leaders do and the players decide any leveling that may take place among the followers (moving a first level follower to take up a second level slot, for instance). My players feel that Leadership is cool...but they also know that 10 first level characters are more to be protected than to be bandied about.
BlueFlames 11-23-04, 01:07 AM	Creating house rules to ban items seems unnecessary... You're the DM, after all. If you don't want the players using certain weapons or objects, just don't toss them into the loot you give them, and if they ask for one in a shop, tell the party that there aren't any to be found. Your slot system seems limiting and unnecessary. There are already rules governing how many magic items can be worn where and to what effect. Weapons and armor are pretty well determined by common sense. (Gee... I think I'll carry my full-plate and wear the greatsword as a pelvic accessory. Can I do that without it counting as a self-coup de grace?) Slot limitations in video games is often one of the most annoying aspects of the game, but on a computer, that is a solution to a technical limitation. You seem to be trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Nixing the vast majority of teleportation spells is pretty lame. I could understand Greater Teleport to a limited degree, but standard Teleport has that chance for a mishap or misdirection that gives you some leverage to prevent player-abuse. Overland flight is easy to counter with ranged attackers on the ground and a wealth of flying monsters in the various Monster Manuals. This seems like a case of you missing obvious answers to abuse. 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost. And that's why D&D has Analyze Dweomer. Identify is too powerful for a first-level spell without the material component cost. Perhaps reducing the cost by half or three-quarters and making it a second level spell is a viable solution. As a first level spell with no material component cost, it's too easy for a Wizard to identify an entire dragon's horde in a matter of a few hours. I actually rather like #33. Characters should have some basic knowledge of what they're doing when they are casting. 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Banning those items either won't matter or will be equivilant to shooting your entire party in the heads. If you put them in an environment where someone with a couple ranks in Survival can find food, nobody will miss those items since the survival DC is so low. If you put them in a desert or some similarly barren environment, once the trail rations run out, everyone dies. No fortitude save vs. empty stomach, no Greater Teleport back to town (by your previous rule), no more party. Again though, if you don't want them to have those items, you simply don't put them in the adventure loot or in any shops. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat. First of all, it's magic in a game set in a fictional multiverse. Logic doesn't always apply when you start stacking up that many conditions. Second, looking at the rules for throwing splash weapons, squares have an AC of 5, and I think pointing a finger to toss off a spell is easier to do with some accuracy than lobbing a vial filled with something you certainly don't want to spill on yourself. Most importantly, Concentration is usually the skill used to represent the distractions (and their consequences) produced by combat. It seems you've managed to nerf the evocation-slinging casters into incredible suicide machines. ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Overall, it sounds like you're trying to apply too much technical control to the game. In a world of abstractions, you can't have a definate, well-defined for everything. Your inventory slot system is one example. A wily rogue can cram a lot into a backpack. A priest not used to trucking around so much in the way of stolen goods can't get as much into the same space without some practice. Your slot system doesn't account for that and would grow to be obscenely complex if it did account for that. Best course of action? Keep it simple and leave the rule out. Just use your best judgement. You are a person capable of handling such abstract concepts. Mimicking a computer, which needs these defined rules, limits your PnP games and really sucks a lot of the fun out of your campaign.
Ualaa 11-23-04, 01:14 AM	It's your game, you can do what you want. Personally, I like options and choices as opposed to restrictions. If there was another game in town, I'd pick it over a restriction heavy ruleset.
JimRuh 11-23-04, 01:27 AM	ok thats a really big list of house rules. I thought mine were strange like 2nd ed stoneskin. I play wizards so... Detect magic is a 60 ft cone that you must concentrate on. knowing a school doesn't mean you know what spell it is. And a very simple low lvl spell can block detect magic. Nystuls Undetectable Aura :) Identify is a very powerful spell. Granted I like to go out a buy scrolls of it. It will cost the players 25 more gold peices but it sure beats finding those damn pearls. You like long journeys...So whats better than having your party having to go on pearl runs :) limiting teleport and such just because you need your players to waste endless time traveling from one point to the next is pointless. travel always bogs down game play..unless you have encounters ready...but really encounters that can be avoided should be by players. It shouldn't be about the long travel time between places, but the grand adventures that they did do. Weapon slots??? So I can only have two weapons? great so my 250 lb fighter with a str of 18 can only carry two swords? three pouches? phisically its possible to have two swords 5 pouches rope a grappling hook and a backpack, with a quiver, two boot knives, a necklace, 20 rings, a few earings, some body jewelry, a back pack full of alot of stuff, and a bow of any size and not be encumbered in the least :) all the level rules for new players is a little redundant for redundance's sake. All the limiting of teleports and such just sounds like your trying to stop characters from jumping out of your linear campaign, to be honest. I know it sucks when the players completely miss or by pass all the work I've done on the session or encounter...but you know what, thats their loss. My campaigns let the players go where ever. Things still happen even when the players aren't there. And every deed has a consequence...good and bad.
Mitchell 11-23-04, 01:30 AM	I didn't look at everything, but here are a few observations. 1) Good only. No problem. If you have 6 players and five want to be good, but one wants to be evil, then that one can detract from everyone else's enjoyment. Setting alignment restrictions is fine. 2) No improved initiative. Why? With the exception of pure fighters, feats are few and precious. If someone wants to take this, or if everyone wants to take this, I just don't see a problem. 3) No (insert book here) or only material from (insert book here). Yes. That's how it's supposed to be. If you don't like something from a book, don't use it. Players will expect core, of course. The only thing here is that I would instead just list what is specifically in or out. One player may think that they can't be PrC X because it's from a certain book, so they take a different one, but another player asks about it later and you say it's okay. Now you have a player who may feel that they were denied what they wanted because of a misunderstanding. Is it more work? Sure. But not much more than this list of some rather strange rulings. 4) One level lower/ no more than two levels lower. Okay, I'm playing a fighter and die, as frontliners are known to do sometimes. I get raised, and now am one level lower. Repeat two more times and I now have to make a new character? This is an issue for me. I will be gaining XP at an accelerated rate, so eventually, I should be back up with them. It's not like an 8th level fighter can't contribute in an 11th level party. Dying multiple times is bad enough, but now I lose my character? What if I'm two levels lower and someone else dies? If they want to make a new character, they have to be lower level than me, but I'm as low a level as you allow. 5) Slots. What exactly have you accomplished here? I can carry only two weapons, no matter what they are? I can have two greataxes or two daggers? It's not like they are about the same size. Furthermore, what if I'm a rogue who likes the idea of throwing daggers? What about ammo in general? Do 20 arrows take up a slot, or is it 40? Where does any of this leave an archer in melee, since they have to pack ammo? Did I skip over an ammo slot? How many daggers (or spears, or handaxes, or...) can I put in an ammo slot? If you have a problem with someone having thirty-five ioun stones, how about you not give them thirty-five ioun stones. It doesn't seem like they will be creating anything, and it's really easy not to let them buy anything. This is the worst thing I see, and I see some things that I don't like. Maybe I just don't get it.
Wil_Hyral 11-23-04, 01:42 AM	All Hit Die are even numbers, so you needn't say "Round up."
ShadowDragon8685 11-23-04, 02:07 AM	So, basically some changes I've been mulling over. Some I've had in place for awhile and have worked (others have been ditched from this list that didn't work so well), and some are new. I've been DMing for awhile, and these address a lot of the things that I think have needed some work. Thanks in advance for looking these over. So, without further ado: 1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. Why? Players like the randomness. If they roll a really suck roll, you can just pretend you didn't see it and ask if they're gonna roll sometime this millenium. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule. No need. Just have monsters use average, or if it's an importent monster, roll it's HD out. 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role. This is unnessessarily restricting a player. Let them play what they want, man. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Establishes a consistent system for possessions. *cough.* No. NO. NO. A thousand times no. This is not only Neverwinter Nightish, but it's also screwtarded. A 23 STR half-orc barbarian should be able to haul around whatever he likes. 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. This point buy system eliminates the randomness of rolls in character creation while providing an incentive against min-maxing of stats This is too underpowered. Make it a 32 point buy, or 35. Or let them roll. This will chafe PCs who want an 18 in their primary score and can't without having a negative in like everything else. 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Enforces the cost of death to make surviving matter. Prevents new characters from coming in more powerful than veteran ones due to the fact they are usually more optimized. Just... No. Let them come in at -1 level from their old level. Unless they were tail-end-charlie on the level ladder, then let them come in on their old level. Or, here's a thought, let them be ressurected. Y'know, that thing where a Cleric waves his hands, says some prayers and the PC comes back to life. 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place. This is just screwtastic. How about you say that players can't roll an inititive higher than their Dex score, while you're at it? 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. Limits characters more thematically toward campaign. Other material might be used after being reviewed by the DM for balance. That's actually more than a lot of DMs use. Personally, I go with the Draconomicon, XPH, and Core books. 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. Eliminates the loophole toward bypassing this PrC’s inherent disadvantage. Redundancy for redundancy's sake. A Mystic Theurge usually keys off two different stats, as Arcane spellcasting keys off of Charisma or Inteligence, whereas Divine keys off of Wisdom. 10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. Overpowered PrCs eliminated for balance. Actually, they're not overpowered. These PrCs aren't ever to be banned. They usually wind up causing the TPK themselves, which is why you should let it in. 11. Permanency is banned. Reduces the “free effect” info (DM being required to remind or remember to give information that a player has not asked for) that many permanent effects grant, in addition to balance. Geee, I don't like the thought of POWERFUL MAGES being able to grant themselves a LOW-LEVEL MAGICAL DETECTION SIGHT, so I'm going to completely SCREW THEM OVER. Dude, screw you. Screw THIS. 12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). Ioun stones normally cost twice due to being “unslotted”. Otherwise, this is to remain consistent with the slot system of these rules. Never thought of creating an Ioun slot? Why can't you wear a helmet and have an Ioun stone, anyway? Dude, you seriously need to get a grip. 13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Prevents bypassing of slot restrictions. And makes players choose between two effects that they really need. Dude, Diablo II much? 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment. This is the only house rule of yours I agree with so far. I normally go farther, and ban any Non-good alignment. I want my heros to be HEROS, damnit! Not people who'll tell an orphanage headmaster that they just pulled out of a fire that he has to pay them if he wants the orphans rescued. (This happened to me once. I was so @^*@)ing ******.) 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Keeps characters within a reasonable level range of each other. This would be inconsistant with your previous rule. Dude, are you even reading the drek you put down? 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. As with permanency, prevents “free effect” knowledge. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects. Actually, Detection spells are X-rays. You just like @^*)ing over spellcasters, don't you? There ARE limits on these spells - usually three feet of dirt, 1 foot of stone or metal, or a thin sheet of lead. 17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. Allows short distance magic movement more readily to offset the effects of banning teleport type spells (see next). Dimension Door is the level it is for a reason. 18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). Overland travel is an important aspect of the game often bypassed or minimized by these spells. Rather than a quick spell, the idea of mounts and overland travel will have more meaning and are a greater potential for story arcs and development. That's because when players are at a level to utilize these spells, they have things they want to do that are more importent than playing "how many goblins can ambush us between here and there." Okay? Look, arsehole, you're being a jerk and you're house-ruling it to hell to cope with your own inability to DM. If overland travel encounters haven't stopped being a part of your plan by the time the players have these spells, you're just not a good DM. 19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). Improving standard items by normal means is reasonable. And 100% inconsistant with what you said earlier. 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Prevents a means for bypassing normal starting wealth restrictions by using item creation feats. Dude, a wizard can just say "I have these feats, I'm going to use my starting money to CREATE, as opposed to BUYing." Chill out. If someone is geared up to be a creator wizard, you have NO RIGHT to be throwing a wet fish in their face. 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost. Never heard of Knowledge: Arcana, have you? Or Spellcraft? Just do it the way they did it in 3e. Then again, this I don't have a problem with - NONE of the spells cast in my game require componants, except a spell that's going to be made Permanant, or one that conjures a permanant thing. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic. You're an idiot. Knowing that a mace is necromantic means nothing. It could be a mace of DISRUPTION, it could be a mace that turns the bearer into a skeleton. 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now. Knowledge: Monsterology? While I'm not opposed to the idea, this is using IC means to gather Metagame information which is then presumably to be acted on. Find a better way. 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Prevents overpowered items from entering the game. Well gee damn, I wasen't aware that you didn't have a brain. There is no such thing as an overpowered item. It just matters how much money it costs. 25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world. As opposed to WHAT, exactly? A homebrew race? They can be fun at times, but too much hassle. Any WotC race is balanced, if you use the LA rules properly. 26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). Same as above, except for feats. This, I do agree with 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. This allows a collective reward, and also prevents downward spiral effects with experience. And conflicts with no less than TWO other rules you've wrote! 28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Players are more thoroughly rewarded for successfully overcoming traps, rather than just surviving them. Surviving a trap is overcoming it. This is basically rewarding them for having a Rogue, and penalizing them for not. 29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). Prevents other characters for being “punished” for others using item creation, being raised, etc in this experience system. And woulden't even be nessessary if you had a brain. 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders. Okay, dude. I can see a Heironeious or another tyrant god requiring this. But NOT a good god, such as Pelor. The CHURCH may be angry if he refuses to tithe, or fails to, or is inable to, but not his God. His God's higher purpose is to spread HEALING, not to gather gold. And Monks? Druids? Monks and Druids don't GET their powers from higher powers! There's nobody to take their powers AWAY! You're just assigning a wholely arbitary and unfair penalty to characters of classes that are already unappealing to most players. Clerics = Often get treated as healing batteries, Druids = can't wear any Metal, Paladins = ALREADY too easy to fall without another one on the pile, and Monks = are neither as good as a Rogue at sneakery, nor as a Fighter in front-line tankage. 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. The primary effect of perform should not be easily emulated by otherwise more useful skills. Not that anyone ever does this anyway, but this is just stupid. People love a good show of tumbling. Tumble is the skill you use for this. You could just as easily name Tumble as Perform: Acrobatics. And vice-versa. They are the same thing. You're being a dickweed. 32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. Balance. Extra damage for using a weapon two-handed when attacking is reasonable, but double damage is excessive. Gee whillicers. Did you know that using a two-handed weapon ALREADY gives you 1.5 STR mod? So now you're taking away one of the primary reasons to USE Power Attack. You must not like your players, do you? 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion. Why is it? A Cleric's job is to bring the healing down on his friends, and bring the smite down on the heathens. It's not to know the mores, ins and outs of his archenemy's religion. 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Items are too universal and bypass basic aspects of the game (food). You mean items that bypass your sadistic desire to force even level 20 wizards to make overland treks and manage their food supplies. 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable. Actually, this could potentially allow the Cohorts and NPCs to level up FASTER than they're supposed to. Usually they level up with their primary PC, so they're always X - 4 or so, where X = the PC's level. 36. Spiked Chain is banned. Overpowered item eliminated for balance. Spiked Chain has been extensively playtested by WotC. Have you extensively playtested it? Do you claim to be better at the job of creating the game than those who are PAID to DO IT? ******* man, don't wait! Screw this DM crap, submit your resume today! They'll take one look at your list of jewels and fire everyone on their staff and hire you to be in charge of Gaming development from now on! 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. What’s more, “free effects”(like an elf’s auto check for secret doors) are disallowed (no automatic checks). Oh wow, so now you're denying Elves one of their class features? You like screwing your PCs over, don't you? Elves have Keen Sense for a reason. It's because they DO have "Doordar." And what's that animal feces about character level +10? You DO realize that they coulden't find a basic trap (DC 15, the kind that's supposed to be challanging to a first level PC,) until fifth level? You're just SCREWING the players! You're an IMBECILE! You're going to wind up with a TPK! 38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). Prevents new characters from min maxing advantages that realistically could not be achieved by older characters (“I found these gloves of dexterity +6 when I was level four!”). Items ALREADY don't apply towards determining prerequisites, Captain Einstein. 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Overpowered items eliminated for balance. Wow. You just like saying the word "Banned," don't you? Hey, here's a thought. Why don't you get yourself into the GMing staff of an MMORPG or a MUD. Then you can just pop up at anyone who looks like they're getting powerful, scream "BANNED!!! BANNED!!!" and terminate their account. 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat.[/QUOTE] Gee, so now you're screwing with wizards even MORE. You're a dick. You know that, right? A real dick. You're doing nothing but screwing with players. After reading this list, I have to ask myself, are you even playing Dungeons & Dragons!? I woulden't play with you if you were the last DM on earth - even the last gamer - I'd play by myself if I had to. I'd DM for a bunch of rocks that I'd paint smiley faces on and play with. I seriously hope, PRAY that your players see this list, find out that you're abusing Rule 0 worse than a white-collar pencilneck who gets sent to a state pen for 15 years gets abused by the murderers, rapists and other people interested in his city-boi 'assets.' I hope, I seriously, truely hope that your players excersise Rule -1, and throw you out on your ear.
Degobah 11-23-04, 02:19 AM	I agree with the Improved Initiative thing, actually. In the end its so good everyone has to take it, so it just cancels out. Agree with the characters should have to eat thing. IOUN stones shouldn't be slotted. Leave them as is or ban them. Overall, the house rules seem somewhat restrictive. Lighten up- the game will run fine even if the PCs are (Gasp!) using Tumble to pay for their stay in the inn. Its not as if they're not carrying around 10,000 GP each anyway by 5th level.
ThatDarnCat 11-23-04, 02:20 AM	And remember, even Gandalf had to ride :)Actually, as a demi-god Gandalf didn't have to ride. But using his powers in that manner would have alerted Sauron to his presence. You should read the books, not just watch the movies.
charred 11-23-04, 02:35 AM	I really admire putting yourself out to see if others consider your rules fair. Most would dread the idea of opening themselves up to that criticism. But, despite that admiration, I still have to beat you up a little. Way too many rules. D&D has more than enough rules, and adding 40 house rules adds extra strain. A lot of them are themed towards balance, which is good. House rules towards balance are the best reasons towards having house rules. There are a few that I disagree with. First, reducing the two handed power attack. In later levels, warrior types have problems being able to keep pace with casters as far as damage dealing. Power attack is one of the best ways to do that. You can choose extra damage from a second weapon, or a shield. At later levels, magic shields can really be a big help, and giving one up is a tough decision. Secondly, I am not completely sure I understand your "slot" system. If I understand it correctly, you are trying to keep players from having too many magic items for balance reasons. I disagree with the need for it. I find that putting restrictions on my games does more harm than good. Whatever binds the PCs also binds the NPC, if you want to be fair. An easier way would be to reduce the amount of treasure to give out so they have trouble affording a lot of stuff until they get high level, but, then they are suppossed to be powerful and have access to magic. Players really enjoy that part of the game, and it seems what you are doing cheapens that aspect for them. If balance is your concern, just give enemies similar items and magic. I completely disagree with a permanency ban. Arcane casters are supposed to have superior spell casting because of the way they are balanced. As it is, they only have a few spells that set them apart from divine casters as having the best magic. Divine classes are the second best fighters, and have pretty good attack spells. Arcane classes just have their spells and nothing else. The ability to cast permanency helps balance them in that respect, and permanent physical augmentation is an interesting concept-- certainly for a BBEG or even a PC. Again, you are taking too much from the players. This is certainly true again for banning teleport. You cut one of the best abilities form the arcane casters, and this time for your own personal convenience. There are others balance rules that seem to harm the game more than help, but, I am not as quick to criticise rules motivated for balance. But, I am very quick to criticize rules centered towards the DM trying to usurp the player's control of the character. I really see rules motivated around controlling the PC's actions or limiting their choices in order to be a more agreeable fit into the DM's (usually self imagined) campaign to overstep their role. The most egregious of these is making the PC act a certain way because that is the way the DM wants the story to play out. This may be banning a certain PrC because the DM thinks it would not fit into his world, or putting roleplaying restrictions because they would rather see the character do a certain thing. You are suppossed to be a neutral referee and storyteller, not an overbearing stage-mom that gives players grief because you don't like their performance. Sorry if I don't have a more articulate argument than to say that is just seems childish to tell a player "No! I don't like that character. Pick one I like. He won't fit in the world I made up." Or "if your character was a monk, I think he would do this, so you have to do it...." It just seems that you rules are overbearing and take away some of the fundamental points that players enjoy- making a character they like and playing them how they want. People like free will. You also have some railroading through house rule problems, like alignment restrictions. Most of all, you really alter the game over miniscule points. Like banning the food creating items. That really seems to be unnecessary. Roling for targeted spells is a pretty fundamental change to the game, and I would not think aiming magic would be the same as aiming a cross bow. Did you put a lot of thought into this? It seems like more of an annoyance than actual balance fix. As a whole, you come off as a control freak. I am not trying to be anything but constructive, and sugarcoating things would defeat the whole point of asking for constructive criticism. It skews the way the game is suppossed to be played, it is unfair to the players, and some parts of it just seem to be there only for the sake of your own convenience and out of vanity for your story setting. What's more, usually trying to control everything in the game will either make you crazy, or drive your players away. Relax the rules, and remember that the best cure for powergaming PCs is powergaming NPC. Tell the story and judge the rules. Do your job and no more. You are probably a bit angry with me, but, don't let that take away from what I have said.
ermedic 11-23-04, 02:38 AM	Please, ShadowDragon8685, ease up a little. I dislike 99.9% of his rules also but try to be a little more mature with your responses. The kind of post you made will only lead to a bunch of yelling and name calling until it gets locked out. The purpose of this thread was to ask for constructive criticism. Although, if it weren't so long and detailed, I would wonder if he was trolling. Assuming he's not, all that your response will accomplish is to cause him to become defensive and maybe even try to use these rules with even more restrictions just out of spite. The kind of "I'll prove that they can work" attitude.
ShadowDragon8685 11-23-04, 02:45 AM	Actually, I know. That's what I'm HOPING. I've seen too many DMs (myself included at one point,) take one look at something, declare it unbalanced or makeing no sense or just inconvienant for them, and then ban it. I'm HOPING he will tighten his iron fist, and generate a player rebellion... That, or maybe get the hint that so many people giving such strong responses - including mine, which I generated by putting myself in the place of a player, which I am - will shake him into realizing he's doing nothing but creating a "Tome of House Rules" that will wind up screwing his game over. Either way, good times, eh?
General Dorsey 11-23-04, 03:34 AM	Lots of rules, so I'll skip commentary until the end. 1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule. I understand what you are trying to do here, but I think that it really shouldn't be necessary. The players should learn to use the combat options available to them. In the end, you have only made them average while boosting the monsters by 50%. I think that you should at least give them a minimum of 50% hit points each level, but still allow them to roll. 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role. While I agree with you to a point, there are plenty of characters that simply cannot be created using only the classes as presented. This is one of the fundamental flaws with a class-based system like D&D. However, I do think that you are well within your rights to limit the number of classes based on roleplaying opportunities. For example, if there are no Red Wizards of Thay in your world, then the class is unavailable (or at least extremely difficult to obtain something similar) 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Establishes a consistent system for possessions. Shouldn't really be necessary if you are controlling the magic items entering the game. I do see your point, but since you are the one in control, this rule is actually unnecessary. Besides, if a character has 20 bags of holding, what good are they going to do him in the end? 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. This point buy system eliminates the randomness of rolls in character creation while providing an incentive against min-maxing of stats Personally, I like the randomness, but I understand why you want to eliminate it. However, min-maxing is actually a correct way of developing a character. No one is going to create an ineffective character simply for role-playing purposes. In fact, all spellcasting classes require min-maxing to be consistantly playable at all levels. Non-spellcasters can get away with less. Partial spellcasters still need some level of min-maxing to be effective, but not too much. 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Enforces the cost of death to make surviving matter. Prevents new characters from coming in more powerful than veteran ones due to the fact they are usually more optimized. Good rule. Go with it. 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place. Unnecessary. If everyone has it, then it isn't effective. If no one has it, it is just as effective as if everyone has it. If you think it may be a bit much, then lower it's benefit to +2. 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. Limits characters more thematically toward campaign. Other material might be used after being reviewed by the DM for balance. Not bad. I think everything should be reviewed by the DM, just as you are doing. Remember to keep an open mind with other books. Complete Divine and Complete Arcane are just as useful as Complete Warrior. 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. Eliminates the loophole toward bypassing this PrC’s inherent disadvantage. I never saw it as a major loop-hole, but why not. It adds more flavor to the class. 10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. Overpowered PrCs eliminated for balance. I don't think they are unbalanced myself. However, since it is your game, there are aspects that I am unfamiliar with so I can't pass any judgment on it. 11. Permanency is banned. Reduces the “free effect” info (DM being required to remind or remember to give information that a player has not asked for) that many permanent effects grant, in addition to balance. With as much work as you're giving yourself as DM, I think that you should reconsider this one. You can very easily create a cheat-sheet with everyone's information on it and add a small list of permanent effects. You already will have to deal with things like goggles of night, so why not a permanent darkvision? They are essentially the same thing. 12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). Ioun stones normally cost twice due to being “unslotted”. Otherwise, this is to remain consistent with the slot system of these rules. I don't think they are powerful enough to really need this rule, but it is consistant. 13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Prevents bypassing of slot restrictions. Actually, if you follow the item creation rules, you can already bypass the slot restrictions by spending double. Also, if the item is destroyed, then the character has just lost twice as much. Personally, I don't think this is necessary. 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment. I agree 100%. 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Keeps characters within a reasonable level range of each other. Good idea. 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. As with permanency, prevents “free effect” knowledge. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects. For the most part, they already work this way. 17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. Allows short distance magic movement more readily to offset the effects of banning teleport type spells (see next). 18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). Overland travel is an important aspect of the game often bypassed or minimized by these spells. Rather than a quick spell, the idea of mounts and overland travel will have more meaning and are a greater potential for story arcs and development. Magical travel is one of the more common aspects of fantasy adventure. I understand what you are trying to do here, but I think there are other options available. You can create adventures where they won't want to magically travel the whole way. I think this is another unnecessary rule. 19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). Improving standard items by normal means is reasonable. True, I already do this. It takes very little effort on my part and it makes the items more enjoyable at all levels of play. 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Prevents a means for bypassing normal starting wealth restrictions by using item creation feats. Shouldn't be necessary. If someone wants to spend all their XP and gold on magic items, then so be it. They probably won't be able to keep up with the group very well and will have to try that much harder or create another character quickly. Besides, with the rule that they cannot be more than 1 level behind the lowest level character in the party, this may be superfluous anyway. 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost. I don't use the component either. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic. They don't reveal everything. They players will still have to work it out. That's half the fun for many people. I don't think this is needed either. 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now. I've been using this one and it seems to work. I haven't given all the information, just enough to let the party deal with the monsters better, but they seem to enjoy it. 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Prevents overpowered items from entering the game. You are there to prevent overpowered items from entering the game. Part of the fun is creating something new. As DM, you are responsible for reviewing everything that comes in and making a judgment call. 25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world. Then no argument is needed. I haven't needed this one, but I don't allow 2 races already, so I know where you are coming from. 26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). Same as above, except for feats. Your choice. I think you should review each one and determine if you want it in your game. I have taken a lot of time and added 98% of every feat WotC has put out into several documents (organized by feat type) for the players to review at their leisure. I made some changes to several of them. They really like the choices and I have seen some interesting characters come out of it. 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. This allows a collective reward, and also prevents downward spiral effects with experience. Works for me. 28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Players are more thoroughly rewarded for successfully overcoming traps, rather than just surviving them. This is how I have always done it. If you set the trap off, then you didn't overcome the hazard so you get nothing for it. 29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). Prevents other characters for being “punished” for others using item creation, being raised, etc in this experience system. This is one of the examples of extra work you are adding in. I don't think it is necessary. A new character is already starting at the lowest level -1, and if you are keeping everyone relatively close, then this isn't a problem anyway. 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders. Go for it. Determine how they must tithe, but not a bad rule. However, does this go for all abilities or all spell-like and supernatural abilities. Many of the monk's abilities are extraordinary. You can rule (fairly) that by not tithing, he is acting in a non-lawful manner and is no longer a monk and that should eliminate a nonsensicle situation where the monk can't remember how to punch because he didn't pay his bill. 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. The primary effect of perform should not be easily emulated by otherwise more useful skills. If you simply increase the DC by 5 or more, then I don't see why not. They can't earn that much anyway. 32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. Balance. Extra damage for using a weapon two-handed when attacking is reasonable, but double damage is excessive. Your call, but fighters already have a lot going against them. This is one of the few things they can focus on to keep up with everyone else. I don't think it should be weakened. 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion. Fair enough for those who prepare spells. What about those who have an innate understanding, such as sorcerers. This seems unfair. I understand what you are trying to do, but I don't think it really makes sense. Another thing, clerics and sorcerers already get only 2 points per level (wizards also, but their high Intelligence helps a bit). This means that they must spend half their skill points to be able to cast spells. 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Items are too universal and bypass basic aspects of the game (food). Can clerics still cast hero's feast? It does the same thing. These are far from being unbalancing. Besides, a ranger, barbarian, or druid in a party will be able to feed everyone easily enough without having to make any skill checks (they can take 10 most of the time). This is another unnessary rule in my opinion. 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable. This is how the previous editions of the game dealt with hirelings and such. I never liked the extra work invovled, but go for it. Remember that you are adding work onto yourself. You could simply have the NPCs level when you feel it is appropriate and have the NPC choose not to be a blind follower. 36. Spiked Chain is banned. Overpowered item eliminated for balance. Amazingly, I have actually never gamed with anyone who used this weapon. We had two people create characters with it (in the past 4 years) and neither of them kept using it. I still can't see what the fuss is all about. We have more fun with other toys. 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. What’s more, “free effects”(like an elf’s auto check for secret doors) are disallowed (no automatic checks). What do the races get in it's place? This is a racial feature that grants a strong bonus. Would you instead allow them to be able to take 10 on those checks even when under pressure? Seems fair to me. 38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). Prevents new characters from min maxing advantages that realistically could not be achieved by older characters (“I found these gloves of dexterity +6 when I was level four!”). You could instead rule that the items had to be able to be found at that level to qualify. Their are some feats that would never be attained without allowing the item to help. Besides, with a 28 point buy, don't you think they deserve something to help them qualify for more things? You are already restricting them in many ways. 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Overpowered items eliminated for balance. Many would agree. I don't, but to each their own. I don't have a valid argument for you. 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat. Works for me. I think that treating them as grenade-like weapons adds to the chaos of combat so go for it. For my overall commentary, I think that you may have added too many rules. Some are unnecessary and others are too much work with too little payoff. While I see what you are trying to accomplish, I think that you may be swinging the pendulum in the wrong direction too much. Cut the house rules in half and I think you'll be better off. You may want to run these rules by your players and ask them which ones they like and want as well. Remember that you aren't the only one playing the game. They have to enjoy themselves as well. While it is reasonable for you to set 28 point buy as the creation rule, you may want to talk to them about adding rules like the targting of area spells in combat.
Mordmorgan the Mad 11-23-04, 03:34 AM	Heh... I don't hate them [arcane casters]. It's just that magic, because of all the rules involved since you have a gajillion different possibilities, by it's nature has to be more regulated to be balanced than your normal pig sticking fighter :) You should look into the new and utterly uneventful new d20 game: d20 Middle Management. In this game no one can do anything fun! There's no magic, no chaos, and the only evil is Mr. Johnson, your **** retentive boss! In this game you get all the excitement of filling out paperwork with none of those pesky paper cuts! As your "EC" or Employee Character works his way up the corporate ladder, his job gets even more mundane, until at last your "CM" or Corporate Master pronounces you President and CEO of Idiotcorp, the largest corporation in the land! They like silly rules in that game, so it should be right up your alley :D . To Green Yawgmoth: I'm glad someone else realizes this guy is off his rocker.
ashera 11-23-04, 04:45 AM	Wow. That's a lot of houserules. Here are my comments 1: Good enough, we reroll any 1's rolled, but yours is ok too 2: Only 75%, My DM usually gives them double (but then we only have on encounter a day) 3: I would hate this, and so would my players. if you want to prevent the multiclassed monsters rom the char.opt. board, require that all levels in a prestigeclass are taken before another prestigeclass can be taken. 4: I agree with all the other posters. 5: No comments, I would never use anything but rolling. Stats are not that powerful anyway 6 and the other levels rules: I dont get it 7: Why? imp init is no more powerful than item creation feats or thet feint one. All feats are supposed to be a little poewrful 8: Are you going to allow the complete divine and complete arcane classes too? Otherwise you might end up with a paladin, a bard and a samurai. The complete classes are not themed in any way. 9: I have yet to see a player take this prestigeclass 10: WHY DO DM's ban prestigeclasses? If they are overpowered allow them, but tell your players "gee, I wasn't going to use it for my NPC's because I thought it was overpowered, but if you think it's ok, I think I will use it for your opponents in the next adventure. If the class IS overpowered, any smart player will suggest it get's banned. My players has banned the Dervish themselves. 11: all the items rules: I think you overrate the value of unslotted items. Remember, they cost double. You seem to want your players to play accountants rather than heroes. In level 10 it gets annoying to always count rations. by the way, are you planning on banning "create food and water" too? 14: I use this one too, but then my players seem to think that evil = insane As for power attack, I have not yet seen it used. the same goes for spiked chain and metamagic rods, and my players are powergamers. 40: NO NO NO. This will screw casters too much. What have they done to you?
Dragonspirit 11-23-04, 04:59 AM	To Mordmorgan the Mad, Arcen, Green Yawgmoth, and ShadowDragon. Please leave the thread. You're not really adding much to the discussion. I can take (even welcome) hard criticism, but I've got no interest in just being flamed. ------------- To everyone else. Thank you for an honest review, I really do appreciate the feedback both positive and disapproving. A couple things I’d like to respond to or clarify- *I messed up on the first rule a bit. It was suppose to read that the players get a roll, and if it’s under ½ HP for that dice, they get bumped up to ½. (Ex – A barbarian rolls a 4. He gets pushed up to a 7 [1/2 HD “rounded up” (or, more specifically stated, +1 but that gets confusing in D&D terms already :)]. *On the slot system, the players can carry more items than it looks. For example, they could equip two swords in their weapon slots, and then two more on their back (I should have mentioned the back slot was a little more versatile than it seems). They could get a Dagger Sash for the back (which, not sure what book it’s in, hold up to 12 daggers IIRC). And an item like a quiver (which could go on the back slot or a weapon slot) could hold it’s standard fare of ammunition. There’s a lot more that can be held then you would be led to believe from first appearance. And you could always carry more items in a Haversack or Bag of Holding too. This really just affects what they have easy access to in combat. *The change of rules in regards to the overland travel and food items are not the standard rules I’ve used in the past. They are experimental, and if it doesn’t work out I’ll be back to allowing them. I’m just trying to recreate a little more of the medieval feel, and maybe a little less of a high magic fantasy. This really has little to do with my players, and more for what I’m trying to accomplish in terms of opportunity as well. I'm really not going to railroad them (if anything, sometimes I give them too much openness or things they can do). And while I know it’s a common argument to say the rules are different in a magic world, it’s also true that in any good story (even one set in fantastic conditions), a sense of realism is maintained so that the audience is able to keep that temporary suspension of disbelief going. *The experience and dying things, again, I know it comes off more confusing in text than the intent. The intent is simply to keep the characters within a range of two levels to each other, that new player characters in the storyline come in at the bottom level for the group, and that the level all characters achieve will be the floor at which new ones are guaranteed to be able to come in at. That’s all. The one rule about spending experience (#29) is simply meant to keep other people, who in this system key off each others experience from bringing in new characters, from coming in lower than they would be able to if the person they are keying off of has spent experience for dying, an item, etc. By all means, if someone kept dying and wanting to keep getting that character resurrected, they could play them to their hearts content. I’ll never force a character to be removed. I just wouldn’t make the challenges easier of course (they would be geared toward the effective level the character(s) would be with that spent experience). Again, any reviews or insights you guys/girls post I'll certainly read and take into consideration. Thanks again.
wildduck 11-23-04, 05:00 AM	Without quoting each individual rule, I have a few general thoughts. 1st: create a simple system for new characters (when a new player joins or a character dies). All this 1 level lower than the lowest level but not more than two lower than the highest, but you get to factor in your spend and lost xp but you can't ... blah.. is not only confusing, but prone to create a conflict. I am personally a fan of 1 level lower than the lowest level in the part. Makes it so players don't want to die. If you get a TPK, everyone starts out 1 level lower than the lowest party member in the original party. 2nd: I think that many of the negative comments regarding banning or limiting PrCs, weapons, treasure, etc. come from a misunderstanding of a house rules and campaign settings. While I think it is silly to say the that a PrC or a weapon is banned in every game your play, I think it is more than reasonable for those things not to exist (not now, not ever) in your campaign. Maybe this is a fine distinction, but do Red wizards or They exist in Dragonlance? No, its not in that campaign world. By defining your world rather that house ruling everything in the book, you can place limits that create flavor rather than restrictions. Instead of saying that the Dervish is banned, I'd love to see a world where culture was developed enough that PrCs were part of society and you can only find them in certain places (where the DM puts them). If a player wants his or her character to get a PrC they have to find a place where that class is available. If you don't like the dervish, but create a whole sets of guilds and organizations around other PrCs you give you players options that "really" exist in your world. 3rd: Spiked chain. Please get this piece of poop out of the core rules. No weapon, exotic or otherwise should be like the spiked chain. Despite arguments that DnD is a fantasy game, most of the mundane weapons and armor (repeating crossbows excluded) were based on weapons in the middle ages. If the spiked chain was such a wonder weapon, legions of soldiers would not have used swords and shields, they would have been using spiked chains. I don't like it because it is not balanced. I don't like it because I don't think the Wizards did a good job of creating realistic mechanics for it on the same par as other weapons. I don't like it because every half-troll munchkin fighter out there uses it. I don't like it because it is poop. Go away poop, be flushed down the toilet.
Zao Fato 11-23-04, 05:19 AM	I think you may have went over the top with the house rules, all those just adds to the confused minds of people. I can agree with some of them, such as High average Hp, and I gotta agree with the Prestige Class thing as we did it in our campiagn, and it was epic lvl. Banning of prestige classes is ok, like we banned Frenzied Berserker, but you can beat a dervish easy, it is called "trip" and that is it's weakness. The banning of teleportation spells is going to annoy the Wizard, think about making them shorter ranged, that would still make them tactical for combat, but not very useful for travelling. As for the spiked Chain, well, we have never banned it, and we have never used it, and we know what it can do, just no-one cares about it, as it is not a cool weapon, a sword of an axe is, as they are readly availiable, but a spiked chain is not. apart from the amount, if you were to shorten them, and make them simpler, it would be fine I guess
Armoured Priest 11-23-04, 05:53 AM	Well, here we go (You asked ;) ) So, basically some changes I've been mulling over. Some I've had in place for awhile and have worked (others have been ditched from this list that didn't work so well), and some are new. I've been DMing for awhile, and these address a lot of the things that I think have needed some work. Thanks in advance for looking these over. So, without further ado: 1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. not too bad, RPGA's Living Greyhawk does the same thing with the exception of giving max HPs at 1st level. Our home campaigns typically do 75% HP for PCs. It doesn't matter so long as you're consistent. Edit sorry, you let them roll, but give them at least 1/2 HPs per HD? If that is the case, I misread and you can ignore what I typed, this is fine. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule. makes it slightly tougher for the PCs as rolling HPs statistically averages HPs. This is something you should only do if you know your players can handle it. In the games I run I often max HPs of monsters, but I know my players can handle it. 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role. I don't have a problem with this, but both I and my players prefer fewer limits (basically any WotC book is for the most part is fair game 3rd party stuff only by my approval) If my players want a level 12 character with 12 different classes, so long as they can justify it, I'm OK with it...It gives my oppertunity to do funky builds right back at them. I will admit that it is more work, but it makes for interesting encounters. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Establishes a consistent system for possessions. I agree with previous posters, this is kind of lame, and does indeed reek of video game limitations. I personally like C&VRPGs, but some of the mechanics that exist in video games for balance have no place as a balance in a table top RPG. Honestly, its not needed...and easily bypassed for that matter. Haversacks and bags of holding are well within the wealth range of even low-level adventurers. 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. This point buy system eliminates the randomness of rolls in character creation while providing an incentive against min-maxing of stats Hate standard arrays...hate em'. Makes players too cookie cutter. Again, RPGA's Living Greyhawk campaign uses 28 pointbuy. Our home campaign uses 3.0 Forgotten Realms standard 32. I have no problem with either, although multi stat dependent classes are tough to play with a 28 point buy (Monk, Paladin, too a lesser extent Ranger, Bard). Although it is a good idea to use point buy if you have players who just traditionally roll unlucky (like a guy in my group) 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Enforces the cost of death to make surviving matter. Prevents new characters from coming in more powerful than veteran ones due to the fact they are usually more optimized. By itself this is fine 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place. honestly, I don't see a reason for this. Monsters often have this feat too, and while it helps to go first it isn't always a fore gone conclusion (or even always desirable) 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. Limits characters more thematically toward campaign. Other material might be used after being reviewed by the DM for balance. not completely familiar with Unearthed Arcana, but I do know its meant to be more "optional" then the Complete books. If you're worried about balance, you may be better served by using the complete books (divine and arcane) instead. 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. Eliminates the loophole toward bypassing this PrC’s inherent disadvantage. even using more sources, I've never run into this in play, although I tried to build one once for fun. Didn't think the character was really all that much more powerful (the divine caster in the build had an underpowered spell list) 10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. Overpowered PrCs eliminated for balance. I don't think these PrCs are all that bad considering some of the stuff I've seen (even built within the realms of your house rules about classes) 11. Permanency is banned. Reduces the “free effect” info (DM being required to remind or remember to give information that a player has not asked for) that many permanent effects grant, in addition to balance. I don't think Permancy is that much of a problem. IMHO its the player's responsibility to remember that they have the effect and to ask for information. There is such a thing as completely missing things that are right infront of you. There really isn't a reason to ban it. 12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). Ioun stones normally cost twice due to being “unslotted”. Otherwise, this is to remain consistent with the slot system of these rules. In my experience players only have one or two Ioun stones (many of them don't stack with other items) that they pick up. I don't find balance disrupted by a relativly fragile magic item that can easily be plucked out of the air by enterprising BBEGs 13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Prevents bypassing of slot restrictions. I personally have no problem with doubling (or even tripling or more), but it costs extra to do so. 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment. no comment other then I do it too, unless I specifically say otherwise 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Keeps characters within a reasonable level range of each other. Again, by itself, not a problem. However can cause a contridiction with number 6 if there have been charcter deaths. 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. As with permanency, prevents “free effect” knowledge. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects. my comment is similar as with permancy. Its the player's resposibility to remeber his powers. Its your responsibility, however to realize that a lot of divinations have limits that can bee exploited. detect magic for example, can only see through materials that are so thick depending on what they are made out of. Keeping these limitations in mind can help your bad guys' dirty plans from being tharted too often...with in reason. Also remember, that not every BBEG is going to have the resources to thwart every divination and detection. This allows the PCs to have their nifty powers (and get to use them), but not have it screw all of you evil plans. 17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. Allows short distance magic movement more readily to offset the effects of banning teleport type spells (see next). 18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). Overland travel is an important aspect of the game often bypassed or minimized by these spells. Rather than a quick spell, the idea of mounts and overland travel will have more meaning and are a greater potential for story arcs and development. These two are related. I suppose there is no harm here...still, dealing with ambushes everywhere you go can get a little old, Role-playing 3+ days of travel where nothing happens can get a little tedious, and even fastforwarding events is a little annoying. Many of the traveling spells have limits built in that are useful for plot-hooks should you need them. As an aside, this rule is rendered unneeded if you have players who like to comb the countyside looking for trouble. 19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). Improving standard items by normal means is reasonable. not something I've run into, but I don't see a real need for it. 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Prevents a means for bypassing normal starting wealth restrictions by using item creation feats. I can see what you're doing, but its not totally fair to new characters coming in. It would be more fair to figure out the average percentage of crafting going on in the established party and allow that percentage for crafting 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost. a few thoughts. Our group doesn't use the 100gp pearl per say, but just have the spell clip 100 gps off the top. Also, its kind of fun to figure out what a magic item does without recourse to magic. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic. I see this as not needed. Knowing the school, just narrows down what spells might be in effect. It doesn't tell you the exact spell (or in the case of the previous whether an item is cursed or not) 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now. I've heard this before, it not bad, but I recommend a mechanic like the following (DC 10 + CR of creature, modified by previous contact, NPC information and such) 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Prevents overpowered items from entering the game. not really a problem as that is your job as DM to keep from happening so long as you are consistent with baddies. I allow them, but I do a lot of work making sure costs and power are balanced for the campaign. 25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world. certainly not out of line (again I'm unfamilliar with UA) 26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). Same as above, except for feats. fair so long as you don't use "Vile" feats in the baddies or allow NPCs to have them. 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. This allows a collective reward, and also prevents downward spiral effects with experience. When combined with your previous new character clauses starts to cause some problems and is either contradictory or redundant. 28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Players are more thoroughly rewarded for successfully overcoming traps, rather than just surviving them. Great if the party has a rogue in it, but kind of sucks, and is not fair, if they don't. (I'm assuming the xp is distibuted through the party regardless of who actually "disarmed" the trap. 29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). Prevents other characters for being “punished” for others using item creation, being raised, etc in this experience system. in light of this rule, rule number 20 is balanced a little better, but it should still be taken into account that the higher level PCs become, the more likly the have made custom items for themselves at crafting prices rather then retail prices, which can still cause equipment discrepencies that get worse over levels. I'm not saying your rule in this case is bad, but it is something to be aware of. 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders. If this is an important aspect of your campaign world thats fine, but forcing tithes can (depending on the percentage and timeing) cause disrepencies in equipment balance that may make these classes under powered (monks and paladins more so then clerics and druids, but still). Also, not every diety is necessarily going to require tithing. Kord for example...if you earned that gold by your own strength its yours. If you want to give the church some, great, but I'm not gonna hold against you. 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. The primary effect of perform should not be easily emulated by otherwise more useful skills. As perform doesn't actually make that much money, I don't see using tumble to make money as all that unbalancing. 32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. Balance. Extra damage for using a weapon two-handed when attacking is reasonable, but double damage is excessive. I disagree that double damage is excessive, especially in light of increasing the HPs of monsters. Keep in mind that (if memory serves) the MM says that increasing the Hps of monsters increases CRs. to avoid the increase of CR for HPs other things need to be balanced 3.5 two-handed power attack doing double damage is one of those things. 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion. I see no problem in and of itself, although it can potentially cause problems for sorcs and clerics who have few skill points to begin with and often have lower INTs (even without min-maxing). 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Items are too universal and bypass basic aspects of the game (food). I disagree with this ruling. As a party gains in power, there are basic elements of adventuring that should get easier (due in particular to more powerful magic and such). Basic survival is one of them. I imagine your rule in practice has one of three outcomes: a) someone is designated party hunter and he maxes out the skills nesessary to do so, b) the party cleric uses downtime to prepare create food and water scrolls (or casts it himself), or c) using extradimentional spaces (read: bags of holding) to stock up on massive amounts of cheap trail rations negating the need to actually worry about finding food. 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable. no comment 36. Spiked Chain is banned. Overpowered item eliminated for balance. In my experience Spiked chain isn't overpowered, otherwise everybody would be using it. 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. What’s more, “free effects”(like an elf’s auto check for secret doors) are disallowed (no automatic checks). This kind of nueters one of the factors that balances elfs with the other races, if you remove this ability you need to give them something equal to make up for it, otherwise elves become somewhat underpowered. Also, limiting search potential (even unspecific) can cause problems with how search dcs are balanced. 38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). Prevents new characters from min maxing advantages that realistically could not be achieved by older characters (“I found these gloves of dexterity +6 when I was level four!”). Um, your quote doesn't make sense without more information. Your rule by itself is fine. I persoanlly allow it (if the item is lost, the PC losses use of the feat or feats that chain off it until the item is replaced, or a similar item is gained) 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Overpowered items eliminated for balance. As all of the metamagic rods are limited in daily uses, what spell levels they can handle, and relatively expensive, I disagree that they are overpowered. that having been said i see no real problem disallowing them from your campaign. 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat. I think you would be better served by using a spellcraft check instead (or to further cement use of knowledge skills use the relevant class knowledge skill) DC 10 + spell level. An experienced spell caster is goining to be able to get the spell where he wants it, unlike an attack roll that has that built in chance of automatically failing (with arcane casters specifically being shafted by your rule) Having been asked, that's what I think. Hopefully what comments I've made will give you some good ideas (not to say I'm the final authorty on game balance, but for my group at least, I know what has worked).
Nom 11-23-04, 06:53 AM	Firstly, organise. This is rather a hodgepodge: you mix rules on levelling, creating new characters, spells, magic items and feats all in a fairly random order. 1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule.That's fair, as long as you implement the first as 'reroll below minimum' not 'below minimum is minimum'. FWIW, I allow characters to reroll on half or lower, so d4 will result in 3 or 4. Otherwise, a sorcerer only rerolls 25% of their rolls, while a fighter rerolls 40%. 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role.I suppose. I have enough rapport with my players to say 'multiclassing must be thematically reasonable, and I control the availability of PrCs'. FWIW, there are currently two PrCs approved for my campaign, and both are homebrew customisations (which is IMO as it should be). 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. This point buy system eliminates the randomness of rolls in character creation while providing an incentive against min-maxing of statsNothing other than 'roll them and play them where they lie' discourages min-maxing. An array merely restricts how you can min-max. That said, 32 point set buy or 28 point free buy seems reasonable to me, though I can't see many people choosing the 28. 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Enforces the cost of death to make surviving matter. Prevents new characters from coming in more powerful than veteran ones due to the fact they are usually more optimized.Well, the 'replacement character' rule listed in the DMG (old char -1 level) simulates character death, except that you lose a full level's worth of XP rather than half. The risk with 'lowest level -1' in high fatality games is that you get a cascading effect where the anyone whose character is replaced ends up right at the back of the pack. But most of these rules are a clumsy way of codifying "The DM has executive control over game balance". Aiming for consistency is good, but you're better to have a good rapport with your group than try and codify everything. Similarly, my policy on 3rd party material is 'by default, 'No', but feel free to ask'. 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place.:confused: 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. Eliminates the loophole toward bypassing this PrC’s inherent disadvantage.Assumption: 3rd party material has Arcane classes using Wis or Divine classes using Int / Cha? Because this is a non-issue in the core rules. 11. Permanency is banned. Reduces the “free effect” info (DM being required to remind or remember to give information that a player has not asked for) that many permanent effects grant, in addition to balance.Balance wise, permanency is very expensive for the cost. Otherwise, I don't see that permanency creates play related accounting that magic iterms or feats don't. 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment.Fairly standard. 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. As with permanency, prevents “free effect” knowledge. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects.Detection spells require line of effect, take 3 rounds to provide useful information, and last only as long as the caster concentrates. Hardly overpowered, and a redundant rule. 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Prevents a means for bypassing normal starting wealth restrictions by using item creation feats.Considering that characters must trade XP to do so, I'd hardly consider it 'bypassing'. YMMV. 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost.Cheap magic (scrolls and potions) can be identified with Spellcraft. The next cheapest item is 750 gp (level 1, CL 1 wand) - 100 gp isn't that steep considering you've just got 750 gp worth for free. Weapons and armour can be used without Identify, if you wish. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic.Eh? :confused: 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now.As you like, though I typically figure most PCs will figure such details out after a round of combat or two. Comment: possibly inconsistent, here. You're paranoid about detection spells and spellcraft checks, then load up the knowledge skills. 28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Players are more thoroughly rewarded for successfully overcoming traps, rather than just surviving them.Aside from the little fact that a bypassed trap is a 'free' encounter - it didn't use resources? 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders.Cute. 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion.Interesting idea. The justification is suspect, though, since the knowledge skills imply expertise above and beyond the norm. That doesn't stop it applying in your campaign world. 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Items are too universal and bypass basic aspects of the game (food).At the level such spells / items are available, characters have more earth-shattering worries than their next meal. *shrug* 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable.I'm not convinced that sacrificing a feat for an (at most) ECL-2 ally is that unbalancing, or no more unbalancing than an animal companion, familiar or warhorse. As for NPCs, allies count as another party member for the purposes of the '# of characters' divisor, so you're actually making them "cheaper". 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. What’s more, “free effects”(like an elf’s auto check for secret doors) are disallowed (no automatic checks).This seems more to do with your dislike of making checks on behalf of PCs. The better way to handle this is to figure out when and where you need to make such checks, and have all the relevant scores on hand before the adventure starts. Then just roll dice every so often. 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat.As mentioned previously, this is a lot nastier than the 'thrown weapon' splash rules, which seems inconsistent to me too.
Naeron 11-23-04, 07:55 AM	1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule. If you want to do this its fine. As you are using the term minimum I assume you mean that they roll but any result less than half is rounded up. It does however tend to reward the low HD classes proportionally more than the high HD classes. Wizards get 2-4 whereas Fighters get 5-10. 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role. Its not a necessary rule, taking multiple classes is a bad thing for everything except saveing throws. A better rule is to make people max out (to some level) their PrC before taking another. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Establishes a consistent system for possessions. Not a logical or useful rule, unlsotted items are already penalised by their extra cost. And your suggestion does not even come near to coping with the amount of equipment that can easily be carried. Four daggers don't take up a lot of space and you can easily wear another weapon at your side and another larger one on your back. Its a rule that doesn't reflect logic and tries to handle a situation that almost never occurs. Low level PC's can't carry the weight and high level PC's have magical items to handle this. 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. This point buy system eliminates the randomness of rolls in character creation while providing an incentive against min-maxing of stats No comment. 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Enforces the cost of death to make surviving matter. Prevents new characters from coming in more powerful than veteran ones due to the fact they are usually more optimized. Seems reasonable if you like this route. 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place. Its not overpowered even if every PC takes it. 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. Limits characters more thematically toward campaign. Other material might be used after being reviewed by the DM for balance. 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. Eliminates the loophole toward bypassing this PrC’s inherent disadvantage. 10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. Overpowered PrCs eliminated for balance. Fine, except that the MT's major disadvantage is loss of high caster levels not stat dependency, you'd have to be using some rather esoterci mix to get a divine and arcance caster using the same stat anyway. 11. Permanency is banned. Reduces the “free effect” info (DM being required to remind or remember to give information that a player has not asked for) that many permanent effects grant, in addition to balance. Thats just DM laziness and has nothing to do with balance, the DM always has to give info that the player hasn't asked for because spot and listen are automatic. Its no different from them having the spell active at that time anyway. 12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). Ioun stones normally cost twice due to being “unslotted”. Otherwise, this is to remain consistent with the slot system of these rules. Why, when your slot system makes no sense anyway. 13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Prevents bypassing of slot restrictions. Again a pointless rule as these items are much more expensive anyway (each additional power is +50% cost). 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment. No comment. 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Keeps characters within a reasonable level range of each other. Redundant rule. 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. As with permanency, prevents “free effect” knowledge. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects. They aren't x-rays at the moment. There is almost no way to use them for trapfinding. "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it." Its not as though those things are encountered that rarely. 17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. Allows short distance magic movement more readily to offset the effects of banning teleport type spells (see next). Dimension door in no way offsets the banning if teleport type spells. 18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). Overland travel is an important aspect of the game often bypassed or minimized by these spells. Rather than a quick spell, the idea of mounts and overland travel will have more meaning and are a greater potential for story arcs and development. Overland travel is always important at low level (Phantom steed doesn't give flight until 14th) and Flying is still overland travel. At high level overland travel is mostly pointless. If the party are travelling to a known destination you are just wasting time playing out the journey. This seems like an inability to cope with the concept of rapid travel. 19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). Improving standard items by normal means is reasonable. Not really an issue if you apply an sort of sense to the problem of locating the people who can make these things. 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Prevents a means for bypassing normal starting wealth restrictions by using item creation feats. You haven't defined starting gear, if you mean non-magical this is a ridiculous rule once people start making 8th level replacement characters. Try thinking about it and starting them on minimum xp so that any item creation drops them a level. If they have the feats what logic is there that they cannot have used them in the same way that the existing PC's have. 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost. Its not a prohibitive cost. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic. There is no way to do a mass identify using detect magic. All that can be achieved is a rough guess of what the item might be. 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now. This is pretty much in the rules you realise? "In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information." All you have done is specify a broad set of basic information. 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Prevents overpowered items from entering the game. That your job. Overpowered items are prohibitively expensive if the DM is on the job. e.g. a ring of continuous use activated True Strike is legal, it just costs 22 million gp and is an epic item by the pricing rules. 25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world. 26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). Same as above, except for feats. 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. This allows a collective reward, and also prevents downward spiral effects with experience. No comment. 28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Players are more thoroughly rewarded for successfully overcoming traps, rather than just surviving them. If a trap is triggered and the PC's survive don't give them any xp, they've already been rewarded enough. 29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). Prevents other characters for being “punished” for others using item creation, being raised, etc in this experience system. Seems ok. 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders. Why, if your campaign specifies that these classes must be from the nobility it might make a slight amount of sense. But what of all the priests and monks from poor backgrounds? Druids don't belong to organisations and paladins don't need to belong to an order. 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. The primary effect of perform should not be easily emulated by otherwise more useful skills. So they can earn a handful of copper pieces a day in most situations, this is chump change. 32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. Balance. Extra damage for using a weapon two-handed when attacking is reasonable, but double damage is excessive. A pointless nerf but not that bad, PA damage is not excessive. 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion. Having very few ranks does not mean no knowledge, it means not having specialised knowledge. Having 1 rank puts you above the level of having common knowledge. This heavily penalises clerics who get few skill points and now are forced to spend them in become religious scholars. 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Items are too universal and bypass basic aspects of the game (food). Food is not a basic aspect of the game, its a minor bookkeeping item that should be easily ignorable at high level. 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable. NPC's should get a half share if the contribute. 36. Spiked Chain is banned. Overpowered item eliminated for balance. Its not overpowered, try letting people use it and you'll see that is is only slightly powerful - if you want to nerf it remove its disarm bonus and/or trip ability. Its the only weapon that overcomes the stupidity that reach weapons cannot be used against adjacent targets - this is single combat that is modelled not a phalanx. 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. What’s more, “free effects”(like an elf’s auto check for secret doors) are disallowed (no automatic checks). Search must usually be asked for, the free checks (of which there are only a couple) are not overpowerd and removing them is pointless. The max for search is 20+mods. You don't logically examine a square looking for a keyhole, you examine the square and see what you find. An illogical rule. 38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). Prevents new characters from min maxing advantages that realistically could not be achieved by older characters (“I found these gloves of dexterity +6 when I was level four!”). Reasonable - of course you could just apply the gp limits per level, so they would never have +6 gloves at level 4. 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Overpowered items eliminated for balance. They aren't that overpowered. 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat. Logically a spell will explode precisely because it originates exactly at the spot the caster is looking at - thats how magic works. You might be a foot or two out (which is irrelevant in terms of the scale used) but anything more than that is completely implausible.
masterofmayhem 11-23-04, 11:45 PM	First off, please, everyone, please, let’s be nice. Insulting others and general flaming doesn’t help the discussion. That said, I shall now endeavor to explain what some of the more ambiguous rules mean. EDIT: ermedic, He is not trolling. EDIT: I put everything in order, too. 1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. This means that any roll of a result equal to half or less is automatically .5 above average. For example, a Fighter gets a d10 for HP, which has an average roll of 5.5. Any roll of 6 or less results in 6 HP, and any roll above 6 results in the actual roll. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Establishes a consistent system for possessions. As Dragonspirit said, there are 4 pouch slots, 2 hip slots (for weapons, generally), 2 back slots, and then the standard item slots represented near the beginning of chapter 7 of the DMG. The 4 pouch slots can each carry a potion or 100 coins. Retrieving a potion from a pouch slot is a free action. Also, any heretofore “slotless” items now take up a pouch slot. A “hip” slot can either hold one weapon (or quiver, or the like) or be converted into two more ouch slots. A single back slot can carry any weapon, quiver, or the like. Any two-handed weapon must be carried on the back. A backpack takes up a back slot. Secondly, I am not completely sure I understand your "slot" system. If I understand it correctly, you are trying to keep players from having too many magic items for balance reasons. It is there more for logic than balance. 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Enforces the cost of death to make surviving matter. Prevents new characters from coming in more powerful than veteran ones due to the fact they are usually more optimized. 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Keeps characters within a reasonable level range of each other. 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. This allows a collective reward, and also prevents downward spiral effects with experience. 29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). Prevents other characters for being “punished” for others using item creation, being raised, etc in this experience system. What these four rules together mean is that the level that any new characters are when they come in is equal to one level below the lowest level character (Rule 6). This level cannot, however, be lower than two levels below the highest level (Rule 15). Should a character have reduced XP from item creation or deaths, then new characters will not be punished by this, and will come n at the level that had been attained before another character died, or would have been attained had a character not used XP to create items (Rule 27). The XP lost by item creation and deaths will be tracked to allow new characters to come in at the proper level (Rule 29). 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place. The reasoning behind this rule is that, several times, the entire party had taken it. This was because, we, in our little knowledge of 3.5, did not know what feats were good and which were not. Most of us settled on Improved Initiative because of the large bonus given to a modifier that is generally quite small. Several times with this party, everyone one initiative, making short work of the opposing monsters (mostly because of the sorceress with her maximize rod). 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. Limits characters more thematically toward campaign. Other material might be used after being reviewed by the DM for balance. not completely familiar with Unearthed Arcana, but I do know it’s meant to be more "optional" then the Complete books. If you're worried about balance, you may be better served by using the complete books (divine and arcane) instead. We have not yet gotten the Complete Arcane, and Dragonspirit doesn’t like the complete Divine; most of the stuff in there is blatantly overpowered. He realized this when I made my Radiant Servant of Pelor. 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. Eliminates the loophole toward bypassing this PrC’s inherent disadvantage. even using more sources, I've never run into this in play, although I tried to build one once for fun. Didn't think the character was really all that much more powerful (the divine caster in the build had an underpowered spell list) A player made a Sorcerer/Shugenja/Mystic Theurge. 10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. Overpowered PrCs eliminated for balance. I don't think they are unbalanced myself. However, since it is your game, there are aspects that I am unfamiliar with so I can't pass any judgment on it. [/quote] They were eliminated because of the inherent imbalance in the classes. Allowing the Dervish to take a full attack every round with melee damage instead of ranged damage is unbalanced. Myself, I have never read the Frenzied Berserker, although I have heard quite a bit about it (mostly things like Deathless Frenzy and some kind of super Power Attack). 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. As with permanency, prevents “free effect” knowledge. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects. Supposedly (this one was before my time), a previous player had been using the spell Detect Magic to sum up threats in rooms through the door. this rule prevents that usage. 19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). How does this make sense with the above rule? By “standard” he means traditional +X enhancements, nothing more. 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. What about a Monk? They don't need much. This rule means that only 10% of your money may be used to create items, and that no more than 10% may be kept as “pocket change.” This latter part was done to prevent the abuse of a loophole that someone discovered when they just kept half their money and started making items in game, as we were not allowed to have a character come in with items that they themselves made. 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. If a character is high enough level, it is reasonable to assume they would have made some of their own gear, if they have the gold. You can monitor what they say they have made, but folks don't just take item creation feats to make things to sell - they take the feats to make things for themselves. In all cases where a character has an item creation feat, he either may not use it prior to starting his character, or may use it only a little. Logically, he either never had time to create items, or just came into a sum of wealth before entering the game. 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost. And that's why D&D has Analyze Dweomer. Identify is too powerful for a first-level spell without the material component cost. Note that Analyze Dweomer has a rather expensive focus component. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic. The idea of this is to prevent our group's widespread use of the spell to hazard guesses as to the nature of a given item or magical effect. Although, in Castle Maure, you can just assume that any effects are dangerous and that any magical items are cursed. ;) 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Prevents overpowered items from entering the game. Non-standard refers to any item not found in the DMG. 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. I don't see monks fitting in that list, really, and I don't like the concept at all. Characters should want to tithe, and should not be penalized if they can't tithe because they don't have enough gold at the time. Most monks belong to an order. In order to properly eradicate all arguments to the contrary, the DM can merely state that all monks must have an order. ;) 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Banning those items either won't matter or will be equivilant to shooting your entire party in the heads. If you put them in an environment where someone with a couple ranks in Survival can find food, nobody will miss those items since the survival DC is so low. If you put them in a desert or some similarly barren environment, once the trail rations run out, everyone dies. No fortitude save vs. empty stomach, no Greater Teleport back to town (by your previous rule), no more party. Again though, if you don't want them to have those items, you simply don't put them in the adventure loot or in any shops. The item was banned because almost every player had a ring of sustenance. This was mostly because we were too lazy to keep track of rations. ;) 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable. In a previous game, a character had a cohort. The impact that the cohort had on the encounter was quite prolific, and the fact that no XP was lost for his help was deemed is unfair an illogical. I’m not totally sure on the meaning of this one, but I believe that Dragonspirit means that NPCs take 1/2 of their standard experience (1/2 of 1/5 [also known as 1/10] of experience in a four-person party), and that cohorts are treated as NPCs for XP purposes. 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Overpowered items eliminated for balance. [/I] One character got her hands on a rod of metamagic (maximize). The ease with which she then took down opponents makes the item overpowered.
BlueFlames 11-24-04, 12:34 AM	Note that Analyze Dweomer has a rather expensive material component. Analyze Dweomer has an expensive focus component. Those aren't expended with the spell, so unless there's one wicked-greedy rogue in the group or having regular run-ins with the caster, you only need to buy it once. As for Rings of Sustenance, by the time you have them, there's enough for each character to keep track of that niggling details like how many days of trail rations you have left should be left by the wayside. The more little details someone has to keep track of, the more apt they are to miss something important. A Ring of Sustenance just gives you a game mechanic and roleplaying device to justify not having to keep track of one more thing. It's not like it breaks the game to be able to ignore eating.
masterofmayhem 11-24-04, 12:52 AM	Analyze Dweomer has an expensive focus component. Those aren't expended with the spell, so unless there's one wicked-greedy rogue in the group or having regular run-ins with the caster, you only need to buy it once. Ah, you are entirely right. I get the two confused so often . . .
bitnine 11-24-04, 01:05 AM	Heh, I just like the picture of a reclusive naturalist druid stuffing gold coins in a tree stump because apparently nature needs a measure of his cash in order for them to share a bond.
masterofmayhem 11-24-04, 01:15 AM	:heehee I think the intent is for the druid to give the money to his order . . . even though said order has no control over his magical powers . . .
Enialis Galadonels 11-24-04, 04:21 AM	Here I will provide constructive criticism, as short and as good as I can :) : 1) and 2). IMHO, OK house rules as lons as you are consistent. I do not do that, but this also is fine. 3) Very good house rule with good basement. I use something similar just allowing players rarely to break it, if there are enough RP reasons to do that (e.g. taking DeepwoodSniper and Order of BowInitiative) 4) IMHO, not good houserule, since the things where it is neccessary they are already slotted (like rings). It is done in DMG; no need to overdo it. 5) OK. Ability generation are subcejt to variants. I always go for rolling method, but some choose point buy. Free choice. No problems. 6) Good enough. I have similar houserule, and this can rarely cause problems if there are many deaths in party. 7) Bad. This feat is not admitted to be broken by no means, giving just +4 for initiative, which impacts only first round of combat. Weapon Focus also is widely used ;) 8) 100% ok. DMs have all rights to choose which books other than Core to allow in their games. Many DMs have problems, when they do not have this houserule and players bring up something weird. For example, me use only three Core rulebooks + DoF, TaB, Sword andFist, SongandSilence, MotW 9) I have banned this class alltogether. Makes no sense for me. 10) OK, prestige classes are only options. Consistently banning few of them is nothing to frown upon. 11) and 12) No opinion - have not met in games these situations. However, XP cost of Permanency should offset benefits of permanent 1st/2nd level spells. 13) Small ban, which I do not agree, but is not major player restricting factor. 14) Depends on campaign. Judging from your basement, it is ok. However, I would strongly suggest you to read article from Regdars Depository about playing evil alignment. It is not chaotic evil is not chaotic stupid or crazy. 15) What about 6th houserule? 6th is better, imho. 16) Yes, this is how it should be 17 and 18) Do not agree, but I see that there might be need for that. IMHO, I would suggest to allow these spells, but raise their level by one. 19) Seems fine. 20) Same for me, This is starting level _wealth_ not gold. Character which joins party and higher level should have appropriate gear, and that's just it (not much money or whatever crafted things may earn) 21) Fine, otherwise, it's too expensive. 22) I do not like that, since it gives nice not precise, but very vague information about spells. Good. 23) Completely disagree. I would allow general description, but not technical things. NO WAY. It takes out mystery, fears and quite much other things. 24-26) Your rights to do that. I do agree, do the same for your mentioned reasons. 28-29) Fine as for your mentioned reasons. 30) Do not agree, since it should be based not on the class, but on each charater's backround/church they serve and other factors. Further I will mention these, which I have met with and can provide criticism. 34) Do not agree, since magic is surely used to overcome basic neccessities of life and to make it easier. It makes easier for players too, that they do not need to count rations. 36) Agreed. Just look at these terrible spiked chain monkeys out there. Terrible :eek: 40) IMHO, wrong. Why!? - that's magic, that's why. Look at magic missile and think again why magic needs roll to hit... That's it and have a nice day ;)
General Dorsey 11-24-04, 07:58 AM	masterofmayhem, I assume that you are one of his players. It's good to have insight from another member of the group. However, with that insight, I am now under the impression that the DM needs to lighten up a bit and spend some more time getting to understand the rules. The entire purpse of the divination spells, for example, is to garner information. By removing their ability to do this, they become worthless. If he spent more time understanding how the spells worked, then I think those spells would be less of a problem. Besides, every detect spell cast/prepared that day is one less offensive/defensive spell cast/prepared. It also seems that the rule for improved initiative is actually not needed. As I said in my previous post, if everyone has it (including monsters), then it provides no benefit. The tithing rule isn't bad. I remember in previous editions where tithing was necessary. What about the monk though? Will he lose all of his abilities if he fails to pay his bill? I ask because losing spells makes sense, as does losing spell-like and supernatural abilities. Losing extraordinary abilities does not and those are the majority of the monk's abilites. I really don't think that banning prestige classes based on what is read on these boards is wise. The dervish and frenzied berserker seem more powerful than they really are. I have yet to see either one, or any prestige class for that matter, disrupt any game I have run. In fact, some of them have made me rethink how I run encounters. The Radiant Servant of Pelor is one. I really had to force the undead to use more tactics so they wouldn't get stomped on. It made for more interesting encounters. However, if the DM decides to ban the classes after play-testing, then I am all for it. I just don't think that these boards (or reviews in magazines, or anything else) should substitute for actual play-testing. Banning items, such as a ring of sustenence, because it makes the players lazy is really a poor excuse. If you are wearing the ring of sustenence, then you won't have room to wear a ring of wizardry and a ring of protection (or any other combination). There is always a trade off. Besides, it really isn't being lazy when you deside to get on with the adventure instead of worrying about how many bits of jerky you've got left. Complete Divine isn't blantantly overpowered because of one prestige class. I think he needs to take a closer look and allow things from the books on a case-by-case basis. Everything new should always be introduced with the caveat: "Be prepared to change things if I deem this to be too powerful/weak." This would allow him freedom to ban or change what he doesn't like with prior knowledge on the players' parts without blanket banning and missing some really interesting stuff. One final thought: if the monsters are being taken down too easily, then fix the problem of using monsters that are too weak. Use tactics and more powerful monsters rather than banning items like the metamagic rods. If the encounters are too easy, then give less experience. To me, it sounds like the DM needs more practice and fewer house rules. I hope I am not offending you Dragonspirit, but it is my opinion. I think that adding all these house rules may bog down you game because you have more stuff to deal with. In any case, I wish you luck and I hope you and your players continue to enjoy the game regardless of the rules you implement.
Dragonspirit 11-24-04, 05:04 PM	For saving me time with a good reply, I will relent on the voodoo that forces MasterofMayhem to roll '1s' on important saves in which he can ONLY fail on a 1. :) hope I am not offending you Dragonspirit, but it is my opinion. Not at all offended. I appreciate your review and any like it that just offers an honest opinion without flaming or sugar coating. So, after reading the reviews, it seems the two biggest points of contention are on Improved Initiative and attack rolls on spell placement (rule #40). On the first, perhaps I'll look to allowing it but possibly adding a prerequsite. As I said, all that truly bugs me with it is it seems to come out so universal. On the other, I'm not sure. It just seems so unfair that casters always have precise placement and that there is never, ever, any chance of anything less whereas senior pig sticker certainly has no such luxury. One of you had a suggestion that I look into alternate means of placement rather than the ranged attack roll. Maybe I'll look into some of that, like the rules for thrown "splash" weapons.
Evandelé Morningstar 11-28-04, 02:10 AM	It doesn't seem like you are trying to add a couple of house rules but that you are try to create a new game. I think that 40 additional rules would be too many to keep up with expecialy if every PC didn't have their own copy or they frequently change. I'm sorry that you feel the way you do about spellcasters but they don't overpower other classes by any means. Improved Initiative is a wasted feat to me so I say let them waste it. I might suggest that if you do not like magic that you should maybe play in Ravenloft, where magic is rare and in someplaces if you are an arcane spellcaster they would burn you at the stake. It just seems so unfair that casters always have precise placement and that there is never, ever, any chance of anything less whereas senior pig sticker certainly has no such luxury. Fighters and other meleé classes have to roll because they don't have a limited number of attacks per day. Wizards have a limited number of spells per day thus it is more important that the wizards fireball hits where intended as aposed to the fighter rerolling an unlimited number of times to get his sword to hit. Now with Teleport, this spell comes in handy. You as the DM can roll the mis chance and chose for your PC to land, and if it works (or the have Greater Teleport) so what if it cuts two days out of an adventure? Less random enounters, less treasure, and less XP for the PCs. As a PC the first item that I care about buying is a Bag of Holding. In our game for a while we didn't even count how much we were carrying because we had new players and that is not the point of the game, the point is to have fun and if you rules help you out then by all means don't let any of us stop you. Our only house rule is that if your RL INT is <12 you are not allowed to be a spellcaster (or in other words if your name is Mike).
Kainy 11-28-04, 02:39 AM	I can honestly say that I would never, ever play in any campaign with this many extra, restrictive rules. Now, most of them nerf specifically spellcasters, but the fact that such a restrictive set of rules is offered in the first place would lead me, even as a melee character, to be terribly afraid of ever being effective, since that's apparently going to be the next ban. There are a million ways to make overland travel necessary for high-level characters, and making it always necessary is stupid. They're high-level, powerful characters. Apparently these rules are designed to circumvent characters ever being powerful. Maybe a better rule would simply be that any character over level 10 retires. Then players will know that they're supposed to always be complete weaklings who can die on a single bad d20 roll, and that the DM is the supreme overpower, who always wins at D&D, no matter what. :rolleyes:
Mordmorgan the Mad 11-28-04, 02:58 AM	Uh-oh Kainy, Dragonspirit is gonna get mad and tell you to leave this thread along with us other no-good-nicks :whatsthis . Gotta be constructive criticism! Then again, some people just need to be stopped.
Duvanok 11-28-04, 02:37 PM	I was going to go through these one by one and highlight why each one is ridiculous or just plain not necessary. But I am getting tired of explaining to people why they shouldn't limit player choice or that the players are the ones playing the game and you need to make sure they are having fun first before any mirco-managing rules are imposed by you. So, I will just say that banning improved init is one of the more ridiculous things I have read on these boards. Banning teleport like spells is obviously just a way for you to lead the players around by the nose. And what you have done to spell templates is just sad. I don't know how long you have been playing this game but it sounds like you have really missed the point of the game. I guess I should have stopped reading when you referred to food as a "basic aspect of the game." Personally, under normal circumstances I don't even worry about whether the players are eating. I assume they bring their dry rations or forage a few things here and there. Too much time spent on these types of things takes away from the real aspect of the game: to have fun. Just out of curiousity, do you track how long it has been since the pcs urinated and defecated? You know holding it in too long can cause a kidney infection and constipation. . . All sarcasm aside, I hope I didn't come off too harsh, I know you probably mean well. I find these boards a good place get some unbiased opinions on how I run my game. I hope you read these posts and decide to make some changes in how you run things, I really think your players will have a lot more fun. Good luck.
Crossover-Chronicler 11-28-04, 04:09 PM	1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls.I see no problem with this one. Myself, I often give PCs maximum hit points with no trouble.2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule.I don't see a reason for this one - monsters generally get 50% of their maximum rolled hp anyway, so they're close to the same system at that point.3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role.I don't see "limited scope" as a necessarily good thing, nor do I consider number of classes to be the most effective criteria for "consistency of theme." Also, this disregards 5-level Prectige Classes that seem designed to complement one another (Archmage and any arcane caster PrC, Hierophant or Thaumaturgist and any Divine caster PrC, Invisible Blade and Master Thrower).4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Establishes a consistent system for possessions.This strikes me as contrived and needlesly limiting. Further, slotless items are worth more because they're slotless, so you're devaluing a lot of items. There's no reason for it, IMO, and a "consistent" system seems a weak justification for that kind of limitation.5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. This point buy system eliminates the randomness of rolls in character creation while providing an incentive against min-maxing of statsPersonal choice. Personally I prefer array/point-buy because it keeps players from being screwed by crappy rolls.6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Enforces the cost of death to make surviving matter. Prevents new characters from coming in more powerful than veteran ones due to the fact they are usually more optimized.I dunno about your reasoning, but it's useful enough in "enforcing cost of death" and encouraging players to not dispose of their characters every time they get bored. Also, it keeps making a new character about as efective as most means of restoration to life (most of which cost a level).7. Improved Initiative is banned.[/b] Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place. :uh-huh: I don't see it. Maybe in the hands of high-Dex rogues and casters it's kinda scary. 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. Limits characters more thematically toward campaign. Other material might be used after being reviewed by the DM for balance.What you allow is your own business. I think that mant campaigns themes could survive a lot more than the DM is willing to allow, but that's only an opinion.9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. Eliminates the loophole toward bypassing this PrC’s inherent disadvantage.Again, I think this one is just silly. I've playtested Mystic Theurge with Sorcerer/Favored Soul, and the other limits (such as higher entry level) are more than enough to make up for the single ability score.10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. Overpowered PrCs eliminated for balance.:uh-huh: I don't see how you could consider the Dervish unbalanced. Frenzied Berserker I can almost see, if only because the inability to tell friend from foe makes the Berserker next to useless.11. Permanency is banned. Reduces the “free effect” info (DM being required to remind or remember to give information that a player has not asked for) that many permanent effects grant, in addition to balance.I find "DM convenience" to be a poor reson for most rules, and since permanency is just fodder for a dispel magic, I don't see the balance issue.12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). Ioun stones normally cost twice due to being “unslotted”. Otherwise, this is to remain consistent with the slot system of these rules.So, you leave ioun stones in the game, but remove the reason for their creation?13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Prevents bypassing of slot restrictions.What is it you have against magic items anyway? In a game with the slot restrictions you describe, where else is the extra item value going to go, if not into more robust items? Also, why do existing items like robe of the archmagi (duplicating bracers of armor, cloak of resistance, and mantle of spell resistance among other effects) get around this restriction? Is it acceptable to create an amulet that grants both natural armor and bonus to Constitution so long as you name it something like amulet of grizzly's toughness?14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment.No problem here; I think some degree of unity of purpose is important to a successful party.15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Keeps characters within a reasonable level range of each other.An useful companion to the previous rule.16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. As with permanency, prevents “free effect” knowledge. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects.Generally, the ability of these spells to penetrate materials is rather limited to begin with. Is it really that big a problem?17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. Allows short distance magic movement more readily to offset the effects of banning teleport type spells (see next).I'm largely unconcerned. It's not horribly broken as a 3rd-level spell, though I disagree with yourreason for adjusting it.18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). Overland travel is an important aspect of the game often bypassed or minimized by these spells. Rather than a quick spell, the idea of mounts and overland travel will have more meaning and are a greater potential for story arcs and development.IMO, rampant banning is an indicator of a lack in DMing skill. There are several ways to limit instant travel without eliminating travel spells.19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). Improving standard items by normal means is reasonable.If you're willing to do the math.20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Prevents a means for bypassing normal starting wealth restrictions by using item creation feats.Isn't that what time and XP costs are for?21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost.Again, no complaint here.22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic.[/b] Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic.Identifying the aura is a far cry from identifying the item. I don't see the abuse.23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now.No real comment here.24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Prevents overpowered items from entering the game.Guess that answers my above question. Could you define "overpowered"?25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world.Because of course the campaign world doesn't incluse orcs, lizard-men or any of the listed sub-races...26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). Same as above, except for feats.Well, I guess that keeps a player from using Vow of Poverty to get around your rather draconian item-limitation rules...27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. This allows a collective reward, and also prevents downward spiral effects with experience.Could you rephrase this one please?28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Players are more thoroughly rewarded for successfully overcoming traps, rather than just surviving them.No real comment. Traps are generally a minor source of Xp anyway.29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). Prevents other characters for being “punished” for others using item creation, being raised, etc in this experience system.So eventually it's still better to make a new character than to be raised? :bored: Also it's rather heavy on the bookkeeping...30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders.Which also convenienlty restricts player wealth. Because we all know that the behavioral restrictions set on them by their faith just aren't enough. 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. The primary effect of perform should not be easily emulated by otherwise more useful skills.Fair enough.32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. Balance. Extra damage for using a weapon two-handed when attacking is reasonable, but double damage is excessive.In what universe is that excessive? Though you've certainly nerfed casters enough, I guess it's the warriors' turn.33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion.[/qyuote]But it's entirely logical that a Sorcerer or Bard would have no real arcane knowledge.[quote]34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Items are too universal and bypass basic aspects of the game (food).I don't see the point, personally. Acquiring fiid is generally more an inconvenience than a genuine challenge to high-level characters.35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable.Again, fair enough.36. Spiked Chain is banned. Overpowered item eliminated for balance. :rofl: There are far greater offenses out there than Spiked Chain.[b]37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. What’s more, “free effects”(like an elf’s auto check for secret doors) are disallowed (no automatic checks).Do the elves get anything to make up for the loss?38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). Prevents new characters from min maxing advantages that realistically could not be achieved by older characters (“I found these gloves of dexterity +6 when I was level four!”).Fair enough.39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Overpowered items eliminated for balance.Again, I think their importance is overblown.40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat.There's little logic where magic is involved. I'm less concerned with "realism" than te viablity of spellcasting characters at this point.
green_yawgmoth 11-28-04, 08:47 PM	To Mordmorgan the Mad, Arcen, Green Yawgmoth, and ShadowDragon. Please leave the thread. You're not really adding much to the discussion. I can take (even welcome) hard criticism, but I've got no interest in just being flamed. We're all hoping that by giving this to you in the most blunt, obvious way you'll learn that most, if not all, of your house rules would make any player who's had anything close to a good DM jump ship and either start his own game or find one online. You seem to have forgotten that this is a fantasy game, not the real world d20. I've had poor DMs in my time playing D&D. DMs that enforce things like balance checks for uneven ground, DMs that expected a level 6 party to go up against 5 mind flayers, hell, I even had one that made me make an attack roll on Magic Missile. And none of those together are as bad as what you've put up here. I think the bitnine quote in the sig of the poster above me sums up my feeling on your "Dming" pretty much exactly. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Arak the mighty 11-28-04, 09:06 PM	In 2nd ed, I used to make my players keep track of how much food they had, and how long they could go, and catch and kill game and stuff like that, and then after about three sessions, I realized, "holy crap this has no effect on how *fun* or *real* the game is" so I quit doing it. Nowadays, when my players are in a town, (they travel by ship mostly) I make them take a few hundred GP off between them, and supply the ship, usually knowing that they'll be out to sea or whatever for a set number of days, barring major disaster. I also can't see taking away improved inititative. In my groups, the fighter types take it way before anyone else does, and for good reason. When it comes down to it, they're the ones that have a real need to go first in combat, and if you're going for *realistic*, it makes more sense that a trained warrior would most likely get the first blow in anyways, before a cleric, a wizard, or whatever.
masterofmayhem 11-28-04, 10:16 PM	28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Players are more thoroughly rewarded for successfully overcoming traps, rather than just surviving them. No real comment. Traps are generally a minor source of Xp anyway. :rofl: You wouldn’t say that if you were playing Return to Castle Maure. ;) Let's see . . . I'd say that about half of our encounters have been traps. If we didn't have the experience from all those traps, then we'd still be at level 12 when we're halfway through the dungeon!! . . . Oh wait, we are, because we've been dying too much to accumulate any XP. :rolleyes: We discussed some of the rules today, although we didn't get through all of them, as some people had to go to church. We didn't really want them to be late. Pastor: "So, why are you guys late?" Us: "Um . . . We were playing Dungeons and Dragons?" Pastor: "INFIDELS!!" *Smite* Or something like that. Anyway, here's the changes that have been made: Rule 5 (Character stat generation): Under discussion. One player likes the randomness of rolling stats, but Dragonspirit doesn't like how much stronger one could possibly be with good rolls. It didn't help that when we tried to show him that rolls could be bad, too, that we rolled spectacularly, including multiple 18s (I got four 6s right off the bat). Anyone have any good ways to allow people both the aforementioned stat-buys and rolls? Rule 7 (The banning of Improved Initiative): Changed. The feat now has a prerequisite of 16. Rule 8 (Available books): Changed. Dragonspirit is now reading our other available books to see if he wants to allow them. Rule 11 (The banning of Permanency): This rule was taken out. Rule 12 (The nerfing of Ioun stones): This rule was taken out. Rule 17 (The one that made Dimension Door a 3rd level spell): This rule was taken out. Rule 28 (The trap DC rule): I think this one was taken out, but I'm not sure anymore. Rule 6 (One of the character creation rules): This rule was taken out. New characters now come in at the level attained by all characters (even if said characters died and lost that level, or if the level wasn't really gained due to item creation), and new characters cannot come in more than two levels below the hghest character.
Rolzup 11-28-04, 10:34 PM	You know, any one of those rules -- taken as an individual thing -- I could live with. I might roll my eyes at some (banning Improved Initiative), but no big thing. But if I was handed a list of house rules as long as yours, with the vast majority of them intended to restrict PC capabilities? Nope. No way, no how. Tells me straight out that you're not the kind of DM I want to game with. When I've come up with house rules, the intent is to give the players MORE choices, not less. Alignment restrictions? Gone. Multi-classing restrictions for monks and paladins? Gone. Weird races/classes? Not a problem, so long as I get a copy of whatever you're using as a source. Open hand damage for small monks? Same as the medium sized folks. Why should halfling monks suffer, eh? Want to trade your familiar for another feat at first level? Sure, why not? ...and so forth. I mean, really, what's the point of most of your rules? "Balance" is a myth, in my experience. A canny/skilled player can get more out of the game then even the most evil of min/maxers...and that's fine by me. I was intending to start just such a thread, so I might as well do so after posting this....
General Dorsey 11-29-04, 01:28 AM	I'm glad to see there have been several changes. It shows that he is a good DM willing to see other points of view and then make final decisions based on new information (whether he agrees with them or not, he at least considers them). I would like to make a few comments: Rule 5 (Character stat generation): Under discussion. One player likes the randomness of rolling stats, but Dragonspirit doesn't like how much stronger one could possibly be with good rolls. It didn't help that when we tried to show him that rolls could be bad, too, that we rolled spectacularly, including multiple 18s (I got four 6s right off the bat). Anyone have any good ways to allow people both the aforementioned stat-buys and rolls? On the surface it seems like those with the higher stats will be better off, however, in over 24 years of gaming, I have never seen any character truly rendered ineffective compared to the other characters because of their stats. I simply have everyone use the same creation method so that everyone has the same chances. Rule 7 (The banning of Improved Initiative): Changed. The feat now has a prerequisite of 16. This actually is going to make things worse. The concern seemed to stem from the fact that those with Improved Initiatve went first and rendered combat too fast. Now those individuals will have a minimum of +7 to their initiative rolls. If there is a real need to weaken the feat then perhaps change it so that a character with no armor gains +4, light armor +3, medium armor +2, and heavy armor +1 to initiative. Personally, I think it is fine the way it is. Rule 8 (Available books): Changed. Dragonspirit is now reading our other available books to see if he wants to allow them. I think he would be better off allowing aspects from each book rather than the entire book. It will grant greater control without making him feel like he is capitulating. Rule 11 (The banning of Permanency): This rule was taken out. Rule 12 (The nerfing of Ioun stones): This rule was taken out. Rule 17 (The one that made Dimension Door a 3rd level spell): This rule was taken out. Good choices on his part Rule 28 (The trap DC rule): I think this one was taken out, but I'm not sure anymore. Another good choice. Rule 6 (One of the character creation rules): This rule was taken out. New characters now come in at the level attained by all characters (even if said characters died and lost that level, or if the level wasn't really gained due to item creation), and new characters cannot come in more than two levels below the hghest character. We implemented a rule that any new character you bring in comes in at 1 level lower than the character you just had. You cannot be more than 2 levels behind the party. It is essentially what you had at first.
BrettUltimus 11-29-04, 01:58 AM	All right, all right... most of the rules here are pretty... well... er... yea, 'strict' I suppose I understand why you banned the free movement and sustanance items... I mean, if that's where you are getting your 'adventuring' parts... then hey, that's what the game is all about, right? Right, moving on. Power Attack... 1.5... hmm... in a way, that is a interesting way to do it, but I guess it's still too low for two handed weapons... and 1.75 is ridiculous... so, rounding it up to 2 doesn't seem all that bad when thought about. It's when you are higher level, dealing an extra possible 40 points of damage that it gets 'powerful'... but then again, you ARE 20th level. Nothing more needs to be said about that :p Oh, and yes, we've all heard it before, and simply stating again... and yes, you WILL probobly keep hearing this... that Improved Initiative Feat ban is REALLY a dumb idea... I mean... the quote in my signature says it all (good one by the way, made me laugh :p). One time, count how many feats a character will get in their career. If they are a human rouge... that is 8 feats. Anything else would be 7... you really need to spend those feats wisely. Okay, so, we are going to spend 1/8th of our feats on something that gives us +4 ini. Well done. That is your choice to make... and if a Fighter makes that one of his bonus feats... well, they are fighters for that reason; for the extra feats. My friends and I would value a feat to be aprox. 25k in gold value. So... if you really want to spend 25k to get yourself a +4 initiative... by all means, your players should have the freedom to do it :p
Jallis 370 11-29-04, 02:47 AM	Personally I try to keep houserules to a minimum. To change everything drastically I don't think is good at all... The rules and options are there for a reason. I let my players do whatever they want with their characters as long as they follow the rules. And sometimes to make things more life-like i have theese house-rules: 1: Elves can prepare spells after meditating for 4 hours. I think it's lame to say that a race that normally does not need more rest must rest more to do the things they do best... 2: 20 and 1 on the d20 results in +10 and -10 to the roll instead of atomatically hits and failure. That way a peasant cant hit a god one of twenty attemts... I go on and off about this rule. The last group I started doesn't have this rule. 3: Exp for good roleplaying. At the end of each session we vote secretly for the best roleplayer. The winner get's 50exp x his ECL. No one can win two sessions in a row This encourages roleplaying. 4: XP award for natural 20's. 10 x ECL. Again, on and off. Just to add flavour. 5: To find out special abilities of monsters you encounter on your way you can take knowledge: creatures. You can do research, in a library, about a creature you have met or you can try to recall information when you encounter a new creature to see if you have flipped past info about it while researching for other creatures. DC 10 + CR of creature for research, DC 15 + CR of creature for recall information. This is just an option to make it less difficult to roleplay wether you know about a troll's regeneration or not when meeting it for the first time. The only thing I allways use is rule 1. the rest I discuss with players. I may have other minior twists but they are too small to remember right now.
Dragonspirit 12-01-04, 02:04 AM	The rules have taken a bit of an evolution, and perhaps were excessive at points. At the same time, there are things I really do believe in, like the slotting system. I also divided the House Rules into different sections, because often they were one rule with many subsects (for example, bringing in new characters) and I think gave a misleading view of the actual number of new 'rules'. As it is, there are now three sections. Actual House Rules, A Banned/Errata'd list (which may be added to as new materials come in - most DMs control the Prestige classes and feats allowed and unless listed I let my players have them by default), and a system for character creation. Here they are for those who'd like to give them another look. ---- System for Bringing in New Characters Reminder: “Spent” experience will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters for these rules (so other player’s new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters will come in. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. ---- Banned & Errata List Banned: Items- Metamagic Rods Spiked Chain Magic Food Items (Ring of Sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, etc.) Non-standard Items (Those not appearing in published material or within the campaign.) Dual Quality Items (Primarily two or more wondrous items blended into one) Spells- Greater Turning (Sun Domain gets another domain ability to be determined). Long Distance travel spells (Teleport, Greater Teleport, Wind Walk, Tree Stride, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds, Shadow Walk, etc.) Feats- Feats specific to other campaign world settings (Forgotten Realms “region” feats) Twin Spell Gift of Grace Nemesis Nymph’s Kiss Vow of Nonviolence Vow of Peace Vow of Poverty Words of Creation Classes- Psionic Classes Dancing Dervish Frenzied Berserker Radiant Servant of Pelor Errata: Items- Unique Items (Such as ‘Celestial Armor’ may have more, but not less, standard enhancements.) Spells- Identify (Uses no spell components.) Feats- Improved Initiative (Requires a Dexterity of 16.) Classes- Mystic Theurge (Spellcasting classes must key off different attributes.) ---- House Rules 1. Characters get at least ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule. 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including that PrC). No multiple characters of the same Prestige Class at the same time. (Exception: A ‘3 level’ PrC may be taken in addition to another PrC, but still counts toward the three class limit). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Ioun Stones will now occupy the head slot (though there is no limit to the number of Ioun stones that may be in place). Establishes a consistent system for possessions. 5. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment. 6. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects. 7. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, and type of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now. 8. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely, and variants on the traditional races in the Monster’s Manual so long as they have no level adjustment. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world. 9. Classes with divine casting levels or gifts must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders. 10. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. The primary effect of perform should not be easily emulated by otherwise more useful skills. 11. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion. 12. Cohorts and NPCs will consume a ½ share of experience (though cohorts will actually gain experience per the standard rules). Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable. 13. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks). Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. 14. Critical fumbles only occur on a creature’s first attack roll for a round, and there is no confirmation roll. A fumble results in the loss of the rest of that turn’s actions (though such a character may still take 5ft steps or free actions). Spells are not subject to critical fumbles or hits. Reduces the unfair possibility a more experienced character will suffer more mishaps than a lower level one. Fumbles do not require a confirmation check because they are only possible on only one attack whereas critical hits are possible on any attack. Spells are no longer at risk of fumble or critical (though other affects, such as ‘sneak attack’, may still be applied).
Cold Napalm 12-01-04, 02:43 AM	I'm sorry, but that slotted system is really getting to me...diablo anyone? Also if you think you can only carry two weapons...I have carried 2 bastard swords, a long bow, quivers, 8 dagger, an axe, a mace and a spear at one time in addition to 2 belt pouches, a drinking mug and various other dood dads. I was very pointy.
General Dorsey 12-01-04, 02:49 AM	Okay, here goes: System for Bringing in New Characters Seems to be fine the way it is. Personally, I think that the 90% starting money being spent on starting gear may be excessive at higher levels. Banned & Errata List Banned: Spells- Greater Turning (Sun Domain gets another domain ability to be determined). You've already made your point on many of these, but I was wondering about the Greater Turning. Turning undead already loses power rapidly after 5th level. By removing this spell, you are making clerics even weaker at turning undead. Feats- Improved Initiative (Requires a Dexterity of 16.) Just in case you missed it earlier (there are some long posts), I think this is going to cause more problems akin to what you are trying to avoid. Remember that this means that anyone with Improved Initiative will have a minimum of +7 to their Initiative scores. Perhaps require some ranks in Tumble instead? 9. Classes with divine casting levels or gifts must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders. The only issue is the tithing of starting cash. I think you should remove this. Otherwise it is fine the way it is. 11. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion. With clerics getting so few skill points, how do you plan on compensating them? They spend 1/2 of what they get for the first 6 levels to be able to cast their spells. This seems a bit excessive. Perhaps you could change this slightly and require them spend some time training at a church. A little expenditure of money might be better. 13. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks). Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. How do you plan on compensating the elf? I think you may want to give them something minor in return like being able to take 10 on searching even when under stress.
Evandelé Morningstar 12-01-04, 04:48 AM	OK I don't need to type everything that has been said before so re-read what Mordmorgan the Mad, Arcen, Green Yawgmoth, and ShadowDragon have said and we will be done with these ridiculous rules. Now for the #1 understatment of the year: The rules...were excessive at points.
Crossover-Chronicler 12-01-04, 11:07 AM	he moment I withold judgment - though I disagree with your previous;-stated logic in the starting wealth rule; if you're keeping that silly "slotting" system then the potential for amassing multiple costly items is already extremely decreases; the ability to buy them is less easily abused.Banned: Spiked ChainI disagree - if the weapon is overpowered, nerf it. But there's style-based fun that can be had with the spiked chain (such as with Exotic Weapon Master).Magic Food Items (Ring of Sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, etc.)Again, I hardly see the point for this.Spells- Greater Turning (Sun Domain gets another domain ability to be determined).Well, aside from not really being a spell, I fail to see the problem with it.Long Distance travel spells (Teleport, Greater Teleport, Wind Walk, Tree Stride, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds, Shadow Walk, etc.)I renew previos objections.Feats specific to other campaign world settings (Forgotten Realms “region” feats)Understandable.Gift of Grace:uh-huh: of the whole list of exalted feats, you decided this was one of the ban-worthy ones?NemesisI suppose I can see this one, if it doesn't jive with your opinion of how Favored Enemy works...Dancing DervishI still don't see it as any more overpowered than your typical Barbarian.Radiant Servant of PelorGiven that it's deity-specific, I suppose I can see this one. But you allow Red Wizard and Purple Dragon Knight?Errata: Improved Initiative (Requires a Dexterity of 16.)You do relaize that Improved Init is more powerful in the hands of high-Dex characters, right?Mystic Theurge (Spellcasting classes must key off different attributes.)Seems kinda pointless to me. With the limited stat-pool you allow the players, it seems that any PC wanting to reach the higher-end spells (and spellcasting is all the Mystic Theurge does) would almost need spells keyed to a single stat; at 20th level a Mystic Theurge can have 9th-level spells in one class and 7th-level spells in another (Wizard 7/Cleric 3/MT 10) or 8th-level spells in both (Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10). This means either a 19 and a 17, or two 18s. Neither seems attainable with advancement points alone. That leaves stat-boosting items (which you've severely restricted) or inherent bonuses from Tomes, which are extremely expensive. Further, they're required to put greater effort into improving their casting stats than a single caster would, drawing attention away from the other glaring weaknesses of the class (like AC, saves, etc). Your item rules tend to make it even harder to improve either. By comparison, the only "same-stat" options I can find are Charisma-based. The maximum spell levels become 8th and 7th (Favored Soul 4/Sorcerer 6/MT 10), 7th/7th (FS 5/Sor 5/MT 10), or even lower using Bard. It stacks up similarly for a Shugenja. Is the loss of max spell levels not enough to compensate for the ease in boosing a single ability score?House Rules 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule.I don't really see the point, other than making combat run longer...3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including that PrC). No multiple characters of the same Prestige Class at the same time. (Exception: A ‘3 level’ PrC may be taken in addition to another PrC, but still counts toward the three class limit). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role.I still disagree. There are Prestige classes designed to work together, and a single-class progression is not always the best way to achieve a Prestige Class. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Ioun Stones will now occupy the head slot (though there is no limit to the number of Ioun stones that may be in place). Establishes a consistent system for possessions.A "consistent system" of this kind is unnecessary, and it's kind opf silly to demand "realism" in one place while taking it away elsewhere.6. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects.Again, many such spells generally didn't penetrate most obstructions anyway...9. Classes with divine casting levels or gifts must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders.IMO, this is silly. Such characters are often on holy missions and are expected to fund themselves. As agents of the church they're effectively on the church payroll, not the benefactor list. Tithing is for lay worshippers, not for those already giving their lives in the service of their deity; it'd be more genuine to require most of their unspent starting gold to return to the church on the assumption that Divine characters get their equipment from the church to begin with. 11. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion.So... Favored soul... which doesn't even have Knowledge(Religion) on the class list, has to have Knowledge(Religion) to use a primary class ability? :uh-huh: What about Druids?13. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks). Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player.Again, do you give anything to the elves, to balance the toy you've taken away? "Balance" isn't always about powering things down, you know...
eudas 12-01-04, 04:03 PM	For saving me time with a good reply, I will relent on the voodoo that forces MasterofMayhem to roll '1s' on important saves in which he can ONLY fail on a 1. :) Not at all offended. I appreciate your review and any like it that just offers an honest opinion without flaming or sugar coating. So, after reading the reviews, it seems the two biggest points of contention are on Improved Initiative and attack rolls on spell placement (rule #40). On the first, perhaps I'll look to allowing it but possibly adding a prerequsite. As I said, all that truly bugs me with it is it seems to come out so universal. On the other, I'm not sure. It just seems so unfair that casters always have precise placement and that there is never, ever, any chance of anything less whereas senior pig sticker certainly has no such luxury. One of you had a suggestion that I look into alternate means of placement rather than the ranged attack roll. Maybe I'll look into some of that, like the rules for thrown "splash" weapons. Most spells either have "SR: Yes" or require an attack roll. Melf's Acid Arrow, for example, is "SR: No" but "You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target." So, if you really have a problem with fireball, you could switch it to SR: No and require a ranged touch attack to hit the target square, with whatever rules you wanted in case of a miss. Personally, though, that's more work than it's really worth, and I'd just leave it at the default. Just use enemies who have Spell Resistance, really good Reflex saves (or both), Evasion, Mettle, or any combination thereof. (A drow rogue/hexblade with really high dex, heh!) There's probably a point at which using fireball is no longer worth it (probably about the same time the damage caps out, CL10) due to how resistant/strong the enemies have become. eudas
Dragonspirit 12-01-04, 04:41 PM	Cold Napalm: I'm sorry, but that slotted system is really getting to me...diablo anyone? Also if you think you can only carry two weapons...I have carried 2 bastard swords, a long bow, quivers, 8 dagger, an axe, a mace and a spear at one time in addition to 2 belt pouches, a drinking mug and various other dood dads. I was very pointy. If you think about it, there already is a slot system built into the game, but WotC (in their infinite wisdom) did not apply it to weapons. Why, other than slotting, are you allowed to only have two rings (especially when you have eight fingers)? One suit of armor? One belt? Essentially, by not putting forth any sort of system for weapons, they have left DMs in the unenviable position of having to say “umm… that sounds good?” and making arbitrary limits on what the players can hold. And without a solid system that is going to vary, and ultimately be unfair. Let me ask you something. How many daggers could I carry before it becomes ridiculous? 4000? 3999? 3998? See where I’m going? General Dorsey: Personally, I think that the 90% starting money being spent on starting gear may be excessive at higher levels. Starting gear includes any wondrous items, wands, rings, etc. You don’t think I meant just armor and weapons, right? You've already made your point on many of these, but I was wondering about the Greater Turning. Turning undead already loses power rapidly after 5th level. By removing this spell, you are making clerics even weaker at turning undead. The greater turning ability doesn’t allow you to turn undead, just destroy them in place of it. And this rule really isn’t to go after attacking “mass amounts” of undead, so much as preventing undead ‘bosses’ (I hate that term, but it gets the point across) from being instantly zapped unless they surround themselves with other undead to absorb the turning. I would like a vampire, lich or some sort of high end undead I design to not be nuked off the bat if I wanted him/her to be a challenge for the party by themselves. Just in case you missed it earlier (there are some long posts), I think this is going to cause more problems akin to what you are trying to avoid. Remember that this means that anyone with Improved Initiative will have a minimum of +7 to their Initiative scores. Perhaps require some ranks in Tumble instead? See, my problem with improved initiative wasn’t that one specific character (most probably the rogue) went first almost all the time, it was that the whole party got to go first if everyone takes it. I DM for a group of five right now, and if only one or two of them has it, it really won’t be a problem. But if they all have it, then it usually means 4/5 of them will go first in every fight, and THAT is when it becomes frustrating. The only issue is the tithing of starting cash. I think you should remove this. Otherwise it is fine the way it is. The thing is though, if I didn’t have that clause, then a Cleric who played from level one to say, ten, would have less money (if treasure is kept to the recommended amounts in the DMs guide) than a new Cleric who had just joined the party. And if anything, I think seniority should be more rewarded in the game, not less. With clerics getting so few skill points, how do you plan on compensating them? They spend 1/2 of what they get for the first 6 levels to be able to cast their spells. This seems a bit excessive. Perhaps you could change this slightly and require them spend some time training at a church. A little expenditure of money might be better. This is one that I’ve been batting about a bit too. I can’t get the mechanics to quite reflect what I think to be a worthy goal – that caster’s be trained in the knowledge of their art. Because I understand, the Cleric and the Sorcerer get nothing for skill points so it comes down much harder on them, then the Wizard or Bard (who will either get a lot of points naturally or via their high intelligence). But to think they can be completely untrained or ignorant of their religion, magic, etc also rubs me the wrong way. How do you plan on compensating the elf? I think you may want to give them something minor in return like being able to take 10 on searching even when under stress. That actually sounds pretty good to me, I think I’ll implement it. A minor ability given for a minor one taken. Crossover-Chronicler: I disagree - if the weapon is overpowered, nerf it. But there's style-based fun that can be had with the spiked chain (such as with Exotic Weapon Master). I can understand someone thematically wanting to play one (like the Japanese girl in ‘Kill Bill’ – that was very cool). And you know, I might browse through the boards and find a revised version of it and eventually allow it in that way. of the whole list of exalted feats, you decided this [Gift of Grace] was one of the ban-worthy ones? This was a mistake, I meant to remove this from my list in Microsoft Word. At first, I did not see that you had to divide up the bonus, and instead thought it gave the Divine Grace ability to everyone in the party. My bad. :) I still don't see it [Dervish] as any more overpowered than your typical Barbarian. Doubling attacks off of two handed fighting can give you FIFTEEN attacks at level 16. Then, using the Dervish’s other ability, you can do that full melee attack even from a long distance. Seems kinda pointless to me. With the limited stat-pool you allow the players, it seems that any PC wanting to reach the higher-end spells (and spellcasting is all the Mystic Theurge does) would almost need spells keyed to a single stat; at 20th level a Mystic Theurge can have 9th-level spells in one class and 7th-level spells in another (Wizard 7/Cleric 3/MT 10) or 8th-level spells in both (Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10). This means either a 19 and a 17, or two 18s. Neither seems attainable with advancement points alone. That leaves stat-boosting items (which you've severely restricted) or inherent bonuses from Tomes, which are extremely expensive. Further, they're required to put greater effort into improving their casting stats than a single caster would, drawing attention away from the other glaring weaknesses of the class (like AC, saves, etc). Your item rules tend to make it even harder to improve either. By comparison, the only "same-stat" options I can find are Charisma-based. The maximum spell levels become 8th and 7th (Favored Soul 4/Sorcerer 6/MT 10), 7th/7th (FS 5/Sor 5/MT 10), or even lower using Bard. It stacks up similarly for a Shugenja. Is the loss of max spell levels not enough to compensate for the ease in boosing a single ability score? You’re still allowed to buy stat boosters in my campaign. You could get a headband of intellect and a periapt of wisdom. Of course, it is a tradeoff because that means you won’t get the Amulet of Health in that spot. But the idea behind the class IMO is just that – you’re trying to get the best of both worlds being a high level mage AND high level cleric. You essentially get both. But if you want both, you have to pay the tradeoff in items and stats. And allowing the Theurge to only have to worry about Charisma essentially bypasses that restriction. Also consider, that the class was made with ‘core classes’ in mind, and there is no way to combine two core classes into the Theurge and have them key off the same ability. It’s only with the new splatbooks that built in control has been rendered mute. IMO, this is silly. Such characters are often on holy missions and are expected to fund themselves. As agents of the church they're effectively on the church payroll, not the benefactor list. Tithing is for lay worshippers, not for those already giving their lives in the service of their deity; it'd be more genuine to require most of their unspent starting gold to return to the church on the assumption that Divine characters get their equipment from the church to begin with. What differentiates say, a fighter, and a cleric in their missions? Both do ‘good’ (or evil, however it may work out) by doing their job and clearing the monsters, etc. But characters that gather their strength through their deity are serving a higher purpose. If it were just about taking out the trash then there would be no logical reason the deity shouldn’t grant his/her powers to those characters as well. But obviously that’s not the case – they are also seeking to promote the church, mosque, etc. And one of the primary means that is accomplished is how any business (no offense to religion) is promoted – money. And tithing is an ancient, and fairly accurate, historical construct as to how that is accomplished. Of course, here we’re getting less into the ‘crunchy’ and more into philosophy. So... Favored soul... which doesn't even have Knowledge(Religion) on the class list, has to have Knowledge(Religion) to use a primary class ability? What about Druids? In the case of the Favored Soul, I might have to modify it to either allow for that knowledge or something else (I am unfamiliar with the class). In the case of the druid, his would be Knowledge: Nature.
Ginyu549 12-01-04, 04:54 PM	In my opion you need to learn the rules of the game more, and how to use them to your advantage. Sounds to me like you are trying to curb power gaming because as a dm you can't say no to your characters. Teleportation and overland fleight and such are part of the game. So are all those magic items. Are you basing your campaign in a place where all that stuff is available? Sounds to me like players in your game can expect to walk into a "shop" and find just about anything they can afford. Build your restraint into the game instead of dumping a bunch of modified rules crap on your players. I see no need at all for any of those rules. Quit being a crybaby dm and take control of your game dude(ett?). Don't forget that its just a game and its supposed to be fun, not just for you, but for the players as well. Banning spiked chain? rediculous! it is an "exotic" weapon. That means they are hard to find, difficult to master, and almost impossible to repair. If you don't want it in the game just don't let any "shops" carry it, or make your pc have to "learn" how to use it from someone that already knows how then thay have to take the time to find that person and meet and develop a relationship with them. It adds to the "realism" of the game. I see most of these rules as cover-ups for the fact that you as a dm don't know how to balance the game without eliminating a bunch of stuff that was play tested by professionals. I have a hard time as dm with certain things from time to time, but I keep my solutions in the story, not by modifying the rules. AND...(like anyone should have to remind you) YOU ARE THE DM! You are GOD! If the players start abusing rules remind them that there really aren't any rules, just guidelines that you as the dm can choose to ignore or enforce on your whim. (then kill the pc with an act of god) If you haven't read it, read some "Knights of the Dinner Table" comics and try to find some where Nitro is DM'ing. That is the proper attitude for a DM.
eudas 12-01-04, 04:54 PM	Well, I'll preface this by saying that I'm being pedantic: "How many daggers could I carry before it becomes ridiculous? 4000? 3999? 3998? See where I’m going?" Dagger 2 gp 1d3 1d4 19–20/x2 10 ft. 1 lb. Piercing or slashing So how many you could carry is really limited by your strength score/maximum encumbrance (see CarryingAndExploration.rtf in the SRD). A character with 10 strength and no other encumbrance could carry 100 daggers, which would give him a Heavy Load. They can lift 2* max load off the ground and stagger around with it, which would let them carry 200 daggers. And they could push/drag 5* max load, which would let them move 500 daggers around (albeit very slowly). :) &Etc. If you enforce Encumbrance rules and don't just let your characters carry everything they want, then *gasp* it actually starts to matter. Wow, you mean i can't carry seven broadswords, three greatswords, two bows, and 100 arrows around *and* my seven weeks' worth of masterwork orc trail rations? Oh, and the sheep I keep in my backpack for setting off traps? Well, dang... I guess I'll just have to carry one bow, two daggers, and a sword then. And, if they go the "we'll just get a pack mule and a cart" route, that just gives you the opportunity to punish them for trying to circumvent your intent. The mule driver gets greedy and drives off with all their extra crap. The mule driver gets mugged by bandits and they take all the extra crap. The cart gets buried in a mudslide in a mountain pass while carrying all their extra crap. If they want to spend all of their extra time carrying around (and protecting) ten tons of junk that they don't need, sure, whatever, but it ain't gonna be easy (or worthwhile). "We hunt the bandits down." 'Ok, half of them fought with the other half, and the survivors split the loot and took off to seven different towns across the realm. Your stuff is probably sold to thirteen dozen different fences by now. Good luck tracking it all down.' "We dig all of our stuff out from the mudslide." 'Ok, it'll take you 6 months of non-stop spellcasting and manual labor to get the three tons of earth off of the cart. I hope that extra suit of full plate +1 that nobody has used since level 5 is worth it. And, since you failed to rescue the princess before she was sacrificed to the Dark Gods by the necromancer Gibbeth Nash, you are no longer welcome in the kingdom of Lorania.' &Etc. eudas
Dragonspirit 12-01-04, 05:14 PM	LOL Eudas :) Touche! So, what if those daggers are mithril. I could carry 1000 on my body? :cool: Ginyu: Don't take this the wrong way, but what house rules I implement has very little to do with my merit as a DM. I think I tell a pretty good story, and am not a bad writer. As for limiting items, I think it a lot better to just upfront tell players this is in or out, rather than allowing them to spend feats, construct a design, etc and then no matter what they do they can't find a shop that sells that item they need. Railroading is a lot more frustrating than a straight up banned list (and I say that as both a DM, player, and gamer in general). Finally, play tested by professionals ... *Checks Website*... *Looks at Magic Cards like Cursed Scroll, Skullclamp, Tolarian Academy...* *Looks at 3.0 Haste* :evillaugh
eudas 12-01-04, 05:34 PM	LOL Eudas :) Touche! So, what if those daggers are mithril. I could carry 1000 on my body? :cool: Ahh, you know the answer to this one already. :) From SpecialMaterials.rtf: "An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. " So, yes, double the numbers due to half the weight per dagger. eudas
Mordmorgan the Mad 12-01-04, 05:35 PM	Why, other than slotting, are you allowed to only have two rings (especially when you have eight fingers)? One suit of armor? One belt? Accident prone, are we? I've still got all 10 of my fingers :D . Ever try wearing two suits of armor? You'd look awful walking around wearing 2 suits of full plate, not to mention weighing so much you could barely move. There's nothing in any of the rules that says you can't wear multiple rings or hats or belts or whatever, but there is something that says only a certain number function at once (i.e. the last two rings you put on, even though you've got on 10 [mmm...thumbs. The mark of a truely evolved creature. Jealous? :D ])
green_yawgmoth 12-01-04, 05:36 PM	I'll just say this, and then leave this thread before I have an aneurism: 1. Seeing as how a backback/pockets have limited space, how about you figure out the volume of a pack, the volume of a dagger, slap them around, and actually figure out how many would fit in there if you're that worried about a master thrower? 2. Actually, the house rules you employ does show what kind of DM you are, and how good you are at DMing. DMing is an art; using a light hand, a gentle touch, and a little practice will always be better than flinging crap at the canvas and hoping it looks good, then yelling at those who call you on it. I say again, that if a DM ever limits me the way you limit your players, I leave. I've done it before, and have never regretted the decision. 3. Magic playtesters and D&D playtesters are like comparing apples to a camera. Two very different games with completely different rules. Your use of that comparison solidifies in my mind that you have absolutely no idea what you're doing. 4. I play 3.0 with a little 3.5 thrown in where I think it sounds better, or makes more sense. I use 3.0 Haste in all of my games, and I've never had any problems with it whatsoever. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
masterofmayhem 12-01-04, 05:50 PM	as a dm you can't say no to your characters. :rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl: Well, aside from not really being a spell, I fail to see the problem with it. Well, the fact that my Radiant Servant of Pelor does (3d6 + 18) x 2 turning damage (I have a +2 on turning checks and an effective cleric level of 16) may have partly swayed his decision . . . Dancing Dervish] I still don't see it as any more overpowered than your typical Barbarian. Dragonspirit does not like how a melee character can get a full attack from a distance with melee damage (which is normally better than ranged damage). If you want to dissuade him, figure out the average damages for barbarians as opposed to dervishes. Of course, that could result in the barbarian being banned. ;) Radiant Servant of Pelor Given that it's deity-specific, I suppose I can see this one. But you allow Red Wizard and Purple Dragon Knight? He probably hasn't read the latter, and the former is banned; it is camapign-specific. House Rules 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule. With rule number one in place, the PCs are more likely to have exceptional HPs (except for me; I always roll minimum ;)). This rule balances that. 6. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects. Again, many such spells generally didn't penetrate most obstructions anyway... Supposedly, (this was before I was playing) the group's sorceress used Detect Magic before every room they went into to sem if the room was even worth going into. Or mayve it was to scout for monster's magic items? Well, it was something like that; I forget. 11. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion. So... Favored soul... which doesn't even have Knowledge(Religion) on the class list, has to have Knowledge(Religion) to use a primary class ability? What about Druids? You use whatever knowledge makes the most sense. Bards, sorcerers, wizards, and the like use Arcana, clerics and paladins use Religion, druids and rangers use Nature, etc.
masterofmayhem 12-01-04, 05:56 PM	Oops, no wonder everything ended suddenly; I didn't notice there was another page. :angel: Accident prone, are we? I've still got all 10 of my fingers :D . 10 digits; 8 fingers, 2 thumbs. ;) but there is something that says only a certain number function at once (i.e. the last two rings you put on, even though you've got on 10 Actually, isn't it the two that are the most powerful?
Aluroon 12-01-04, 06:07 PM	So, basically some changes I've been mulling over. Some I've had in place for awhile and have worked (others have been ditched from this list that didn't work so well), and some are new. I've been DMing for awhile, and these address a lot of the things that I think have needed some work. Thanks in advance for looking these over. So, without further ado: Ok...sure...why not? 1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up.Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. Sure, this is ok, pointless but ok. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule. Alittle pointless but sure. 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role. Ok now here is where I start to break with you. This makes no allowences for 5 level Prcs. I can understand that you want to prevent Min/Maxing with 1 level dips but this is alittle harsh. You might want to change this to any 3 core, and any 2 prestige classes. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Establishes a consistent system for possessions. As has been said, this smells like a video game. I dont like it it at all. I dont understand the reasoning behind it and I don't approve. 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. This point buy system eliminates the randomness of rolls in character creation while providing an incentive against min-maxing of stats Uh, uh. Make it Roll your own or 32 point buy. Don't force someone to live a negitive. What if I don't want my bard to be weak, clumsy, feeble, stupid, annoying, or boring. Your forcing me to either pick on of the 6 or play a character that is suboptimal. Bad form... 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Enforces the cost of death to make surviving matter. Prevents new characters from coming in more powerful than veteran ones due to the fact they are usually more optimized. Sure, why not? 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place. Wow, this is a first. I've seen many feats banned by this is not one of them. If your partys winning initiative then start inculding suprise rounds. If they are wasting feats on a +4 init then good for them, it just means they dont get another abillity that is more useful. 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. Limits characters more thematically toward campaign. Other material might be used after being reviewed by the DM for balance. Well, I'm more partial to Core, Complete Books, and Forgotten Realms Books (because we play in the Realms). Banning Complete Divine and Complete Arcane is stupid. It gives your warriors 30 options and your wizards, cleric, druid, and sorcerers . Ban all the complete books or allow any. 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. Eliminates the loophole toward bypassing this PrC’s inherent disadvantage. Somewhat redundent if your banning both complete divine and complete arcane. Otherwise I still dont like it. Mystic Theurge is enough of a weakness already. Try playing one at level 7, its fun, 2nd level spells while everyone else has 4th. 10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. Overpowered PrCs eliminated for balance. This is foolish of you. Both of these classes have there own short commings, and both are balanced. They only become unbalanced when mixed with 2-3 other prcs that grant similar abillitys. Limit it to 2 prcs and your fine. 11. Permanency is banned. Reduces the “free effect” info (DM being required to remind or remember to give information that a player has not asked for) that many permanent effects grant, in addition to balance. This covers up your own shortcommings as a dm, and is just another nurf on the growing list of nerfs your hitting arcane casters with. 12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). Ioun stones normally cost twice due to being “unslotted”. Otherwise, this is to remain consistent with the slot system of these rules. This is stupid, ban them or allow them, don't do it like this. Rememeber that you control what your players get 90% of the time, just limit the number of Ioun stones you hand out and your fine. 13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Prevents bypassing of slot restrictions. This is foolish. The rules are made in such a way as that a "Duel Qualities" item costs much more then 2 items. Remove this restriction, there are already enough on magic items as it is going by core alone. 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment. I don't have a problum with this, as I think that evil party memebers in a good party destroys a party. 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Keeps characters within a reasonable level range of each other. Didn't you already make a rule about this some while back? 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. As with permanency, prevents “free effect” knowledge. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects. Well they are X-rays and are balanced as such. Live with it. If your so afraid of them make every wall lined with 5 inces of lead. Remember that every spell like this that is prepared takes up a spell slot that would otherwise be used for an offensive spell. 17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. Allows short distance magic movement more readily to offset the effects of banning teleport type spells (see next). 18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). Overland travel is an important aspect of the game often bypassed or minimized by these spells. Rather than a quick spell, the idea of mounts and overland travel will have more meaning and are a greater potential for story arcs and development. No...NO...NO...NO. The the picture, N, O, no to this. It covers up your own problums as a dm and railroads the party. Its just stupid to make a level 20 wizard who can kill a creature with a word, Change reality with a word, and Freeze time walk back and forth from town to town. 19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). Improving standard items by normal means is reasonable. This is just a weird rule. You can already do this. 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Prevents a means for bypassing normal starting wealth restrictions by using item creation feats. This is another nerf on casters by killing there item creation feats. You really don't like magic do you? 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost. I'm fine with this, acually it's the first of your rules I like. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic. BOO! Another nerf on casters. 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now. Can you save video game? I would allow a check to reveal it's name, type, speed (roughly), an size, and maybe a well known or noteable power, but not HD, AC, BaB, or Initiative. I don't like this call. 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Prevents overpowered items from entering the game. Huh? Dude get a grip this is just a stupid rule. Makes Item Creation feats even more nerfed then you have already nerfed them. 25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world. I don't really have a problum with this rule per say, I just much prefer using some of the varient races (grey elves, sun elves, wood elves, wild elves, drow, ect) (and yes I do play elves). 26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). Same as above, except for feats. Well we use reginal, but thats because were playing FR, however I understand what your going for here, no problum. I like the ban on Exalted feats, there overpowered and make little sense. 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. This allows a collective reward, and also prevents downward spiral effects with experience. Didn't your already rule, several time about experance? I'm confused. 28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Players are more thoroughly rewarded for successfully overcoming traps, rather than just surviving them. Huh... 29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). Prevents other characters for being “punished” for others using item creation, being raised, etc in this experience system. Again with the experience. Just alittle bit of a control freak are we? 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders. I hate this rule, mostly for the druid and monks (for which it makes no sense at all), but also for some clerics. The gods don't care about gold for there church, they care about spreading there ideals. Bad call. 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. The primary effect of perform should not be easily emulated by otherwise more useful skills. Omg...this is just you adding on another rule that is not really needed. You make like what 5 gold a day max with perform? Furthermore I could see tumble being a skill you could use with in place of perform. 32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. Balance. Extra damage for using a weapon two-handed when attacking is reasonable, but double damage is excessive. Oh, done with the casters are we? Now its time to make a feat used in 75% of combat prestige classes, and needed to help the fighter stay useful useless? No, this is a bad call. 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion. I can see this with arcane casters, and with druids, but a cleric doesnt need to know how to preach at mass in order to cast spells. 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Items are too universal and bypass basic aspects of the game (food). As I belive has already been said, take out the few items that help reduce the stupidity of your already stupid travel rules, because you think the level 20 wizard should have to carry around 50 days of trail rations while he marchs between towns on his trusty pony. God... 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable. There are already rules regarding this that are much more balanced then yours. 36. Spiked Chain is banned. Overpowered item eliminated for balance. Overpowered according to who? Its only overpowered if you use the miniatures handbook. 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. What’s more, “free effects”(like an elf’s auto check for secret doors) are disallowed (no automatic checks). OMG!!! THE STUPIDITY CONTINUES! Its like the awful movie that just keeps on having sequals! Your taking away the one special abillity of elves, and one of the major abillitys of dwarves so that you can screw your players. If you did this in one of my games you would end up with the party searching every square inch of every room, one search check at a time. We would spend our characters entire lives making sure we didn't miss a single secret door just to spit you. Futhermore a pit overed with leaves is unfindable until your level 5. Add this to your new rules regarding traps CR... You havent thought this out fully have you? Pull back this rule. 38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). Prevents new characters from min maxing advantages that realistically could not be achieved by older characters (“I found these gloves of dexterity +6 when I was level four!”). Yeh this is already a rule smart one. Check out the rules for Prc's. 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Overpowered items eliminated for balance. Ok, we must nerf the caster some more. Apparently it isnt enough to kill Item Creation Feats, Remove transporation spells, Force them to play without Complete Arcane, Remove Ioun Stones, Nerf detection spells, Nerf detection spells again, Nerf detection spells one more time for good measure, oh, and remove permanancy. Jesus Christ! Stop the Hatred of the Caster! Don't Remove an entire set of items because of a single bad experance with one item from the set which you gave out (because your players can't craft any items due to your stupid rules regarding item creation). 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat. This is the final straw... You've let me speachless with dozens of rules that are either already in place regarding core rules, dont make sense, or screw over a single class or two. Ray spells miss you moron, not area spells. I'm sorry if I am just alittle offensive, but spending time looking at these rules and trying to make some sense of them leaves me annoyed. While your at it why don't you just write up your players characters for them, give them a pre-written background, control the character by yourself to ensure that nothing unbalanced come into play, and sit in your living room talking to yourself after your players all revolt against you for being such a CONTROL FREAK! Sorry about that. On the other hand I complement you for exposing yourself to such critisism, something most would never do. Aluroon
eudas 12-01-04, 06:09 PM	That just conjures all sorts of fun in my mind: I picture a character wearing a 'ring of invisibility' and 'ring of sustenance' puts on another new ring he found. A couple of hours later, he feels some very unfamiliar sensations: he is hungry as hell, and he has to take a dump like never before. Heehee. eudas
Kainy 12-01-04, 06:22 PM	Yep, thousand cuts (dervish's double # of attacks ability) sure does outdo barbie rage. I mean, barbie rage at level 20 only lasts 7 + old con mod rounds! And he can only do it what, a few times a day? I can see how that's VASTLY inferior to thousand cuts, which is doable once per day, for ONE ROUND. Fifteen attacks. With scimitars, that's 15d6 + 12x str mod (9 attacks primary hand, 6 off-hand, if I'm figuring right) damage, assuming (and it's a wild assumption) that every single attack hits. Assuming 75% hit (which is pretty crazy, too) that's about 12d6+ 9x str. mod damage. What else can do that much damage? Oh, right, firebrand, a level 5 sorc/wiz spell that can hit up to 75 different targets for 15d6 damage. Difference is, you can do that firebrand EARLIER in level than you can do the thousand cuts. Yep. Freaking cheese, and way overpowered. Next time I run a game, my players have to start with 8 in every stat, and work off a 8000 point experience debt, for the future overpowered actions that I just KNOW they'll take. HEIL DM! SIEG HEIL! :rolleyes:
Dragonspirit 12-01-04, 06:27 PM	Accident prone, are we? I've still got all 10 of my fingers That must be freakish when combined with your thumbs. :clap: [mmm...thumbs. The mark of a truely evolved creature. Jealous?] I really don't know what I'd do with ten fingers and two thumbs, so no, not really. Should I be? 1. Seeing as how a backback/pockets have limited space, how about you figure out the volume of a pack, the volume of a dagger, slap them around, and actually figure out how many would fit in there Or, we could just extend the normal slotting requriements to weapons and just tally the lbs, rather than calculating the cubic volume of each object. 2. Actually, the house rules you employ does show what kind of DM you are, and how good you are at DMing. DMing is an art; using a light hand, a gentle touch, and a little practice will always be better than flinging crap at the canvas and hoping it looks good, then yelling at those who call you on it. I say again, that if a DM ever limits me the way you limit your players, I leave. I've done it before, and have never regretted the decision. I'm not "yelling" at anyone. If you review the posts, I even thank people who offer intelligent analysis of a rule, rather than flinging about "Yer teh lose DM!!1one" And if I had a player so complaint driven as you have indicated yourself to be, you wouldn't be invited to stay in my campaign. So don't think that leaving would always be your choice exclusively - you very well may be kicked out. 3. Magic playtesters and D&D playtesters are like comparing apples to a camera. Two very different games with completely different rules. Your use of that comparison solidifies in my mind that you have absolutely no idea what you're doing. The point is that neither game's rules are handed down by God and ordained by the Pope. In both games, new things come out that are good and that are awful. And unlike in Magic where the game is recorrected every few months once the tournament environment has proven it to be degenerate, in D&D it is up to the DM to fix problems. 4. I play 3.0 with a little 3.5 thrown in where I think it sounds better, or makes more sense. I use 3.0 Haste in all of my games, and I've never had any problems with it whatsoever. So basically you don't even abide by any set rules system yourself. You selectively choose. But if another DM does it the same, it's objectively wrong. :smirk:
Dragonspirit 12-01-04, 06:34 PM	Aluroon: See one of my more recent posts. I adjusted a lot of the rules, so they are different than the opening post now.
Dragonspirit 12-01-04, 06:40 PM	Kainy: You think a 15th level character is only going to have mundane scimitars? I have a 12th level character with a pair of Holy Daggers +1. Giving the dervish in your example just that, increases the damage 30d6 + 15.
eudas 12-01-04, 06:45 PM	daggers do d4 damage... where's the d6 coming from? or do you mean that the dervish in question would have holy scimitars +1? eudas p.s. "So don't think that leaving would always be your choice exclusively - you very well may be kicked out." and this... well... this strikes me as both of you going at each other like "i quit!" 'oh yeah! you can't quit! you're fired!'... *rolls eyes* anyway, we're digressing onto side issues anyway. fun though they are... :) speaking of which, in reference to our earlier Encumbrance conversation: http://www.3rdedition.org/guffaw/index.asp?GuffawID=74 my personal opinion is that i understand what you're trying to do with the eating/travel thing... it does draw down from arcane power some, and you need to account for those changes in how they affect game balance, because the system was balanced for various capabilities of the classes, and when you change the class abilities you are changing the game balance. but it can be cool, there are pros and cons to both sides of it. on the one hand, you have the annoyingness of having to track food and travel distance, plus random encounters, which can be good and central to the plot if handled well and *yawn* if handled badly. on the other hand, you have the annoyingness of players breaking your plot with barely breaking a sweat, which can be cool if handled well in an epic-game sense and bad if not prepared for: http://www.3rdedition.org/guffaw/index.asp?GuffawID=109 http://www.3rdedition.org/guffaw/index.asp?GuffawID=110 so, there are points in favor of each side and points against each side... one story which uses the food/travel limitations quite well is here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3950827 if the characters could just teleport around with rings of sustenance, there'd be hardly anything to the story at all... but OTOH, my character Telamon, for example, wants to buy a ring of sustenance, simply *because* they starved in the pit at the bottom of the Sunless Citadel for days before finally getting out of there. (Characters *can* die of starvation in D&D!) It's not like his central preoccupation or anything, but if it's available, he'd sure like to have it. :) anyway, time for me to go home, so i'll blather on later... eudas
Dragonspirit 12-01-04, 06:52 PM	Holy Scimitars +1.
eudas 12-01-04, 07:03 PM	ok, well note that the 'holy' part of it is only really useful against enemies that have the 'evil' descriptor... so the damage bonus from 'holy' becomes situational, whereas a scimitar +3 is useful against anybody... eudas
green_yawgmoth 12-01-04, 07:04 PM	Or, we could just extend the normal slotting requriements to weapons and just tally the lbs, rather than calculating the cubic volume of each object.Which is petently different from having a "weapons slot". Aces. I'm not "yelling" at anyone. If you review the posts, I even thank people who offer intelligent analysis of a rule, rather than flinging about "Yer teh lose DM!!1one"You're getting pissy that some people find your DM to be a bigger tyranny that anything Hextor himself could come up with. You're also putting words in my mouth, which is just bad form no matter where you are. And if I had a player so complaint driven as you have indicated yourself to be, you wouldn't be invited to stay in my campaign. So don't think that leaving would always be your choice exclusively - you very well may be kicked out. "You can quit because you're fired!" :rolleyes: If I had the misfortune of stepping into the same area as you and somehow sat down to hear your houserules, I would be getting up and driving home before you could finish half of those. So yes, it would be exclusively my decision, since you wouldn't have the opportunity to tell me to get out. The point is that neither game's rules are handed down by God and ordained by the Pope. In both games, new things come out that are good and that are awful. And unlike in Magic where the game is recorrected every few months once the tournament environment has proven it to be degenerate, in D&D it is up to the DM to fix problems.My point still stands that you're comparing a tin can to a bag of marshmallows. MtG gets errata, as does D&D. Maybe you've been skipping over that link that says "errata" on the front page? So basically you don't even abide by any set rules system yourself. You selectively choose. But if another DM does it the same, it's objectively wrong. :smirk:Oh noes! I like 3.5 leadership, and some of the things in the Libris Mortis; that must mean I'm wrong! :rolleyes: I might make a few houserules if I deem them absolutely necessary, but you know what I would most certainly do before instituting any house rule? Ask the players of they are okay with said rule. If any of them, even one player wasn't, I would ask them how to fix it so that i would make sense to them. So a thousand aplolgies for having the players' enjoyment of my game set a little higher in my priorities than some ideal of "balance", which amounts to you forcing your players to play each class the exact same way every game. Don't bother responding to this, I'm putting you on my blocked list since you obviously can't handle someone seeing your houserules as anything but a poor coverup for your own inadequacies as a DM. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Duvanok 12-01-04, 07:43 PM	While I applaud your efforts at rethinking your house rules (it at least shows you are considering the advice you have received thus far), I have to say you are still really off in your thinking on most of these. It's okay that the players who take improved init go first 4 out of 5 times, they took a feat that enables them to do so. And a prerequisite of 16 dex for improved init just makes the already high init character even higher. I just don't understand where you are coming from on this one. . . Anyway, even after your revisions my previous post still stands. It's hard to tell without ever having played with you but it really sounds like you are completely missing the feel and spirit of the game. I wish I could run you through an adventure just so you can see how fun it can be without all the penalties of your house rules. I am sure your players would love it. Perhaps you could try that as a little experiment. Next time you start a new campaign try running the first couple of sessions completely by the book and see how much fun your players have. Remember, it's all about them anyway.
masterofmayhem 12-01-04, 08:35 PM	OK, here's a little something I wrote up. Half-orc barbarian 16 Normal Items Rage S 26 +8 32 +11 38 +14 D 10 0 10 0 C 16 +3 20 +5 I 6 -2 6 -2 W 8 -1 8 -1 C 6 -2 6 -2 Feats: (6) Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Critical, Improved Resiliency, Monkey Grip, Equipment: (257,000gp) +5 holy Large greatsword (98,000), Belt of strength +6 (36,000), Amulet of Con +4 (16,000) Boots of haste (12,000), Glove of storing (10,000), Cloak of resistance +2 (4,000), Manual of strength +2 (55,000) Mithral chain shirt +5 (26,000) Elven Fighter 6, Dervish 10 S 12 +1 16 +3 D 22 +6 28 +9 C 12 +1 14 +2 I 12 +1 14 +2 W 10 0 10 0 C 10 0 10 0 Feats: (10) Weapon finesse, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Improved critical, Two weapon Fighting, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Two weapon fighting, Quickdraw Equipment: (260,000) 2 +4 holy scimitars (196,000), Gloves of dexterity +6 (36,000), Belt of strength +4 (16,000), Amulet of constitution +4 (16,000), Cloak of resistance +2 (4,000), Boots of haste (12,000), Mithral chain shirt +3 (10,000), Ring of deflection +1 (2,000) These two characters encounter a CR 16 monster, with an AC of 31 (assume 15+CR, which was the average I saw in the MM). First Round: Dervish: Dervish Dances, using 1000 cuts: +29/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14 3d6+9 +29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19 3d6+7 So the dervish hits 5 on-hand attacks and 4 offhand attacks, doing an average of 167.5 damage. Barbarian: Rages, charges, power attacking for 10 +29, 5d6+47, or an average of 68.5 damage. Second round: Dervish: Dervish dance: +29/+29/+24/+19/+14/ 3d6+9 +29/+24/+19 3d6+7 So the dervish hits 3 on-hand attacks and 2 offhand attacks, doing an average of 93.5 damage. Barbarian: Power attacking for 8 makes the two have even attack bonuses. +29/+29/+24/+19/+14 5d6 + 47 So the barbarian would hit about 3 attacks, doing an average of 193.5 damage. Allow for each one to get an AoO, so an additional 66.5 damage for the Barbarian, and 19.5 damage for the Dervish Third Round: Dervish: Dervish dance: +29/+29/+24/+19/+14/ 3d6+9 +29/+24/+19 3d6+7 So the dervish hits 3 on-hand attacks and 2 offhand attacks, doing an average of 93.5 damage. Barbarian: Power attacking for 8 makes the two have even attack bonuses. +29/+29/+24/+19/+14 5d6 + 47 So the barbarian would hit about 3 attacks, doing an average of 193.5 damage. Total: Barbarian: 522 damage Dervish: 374 damage That is without critical hits, which would greatly benefit the barbarian. And this is nothing compared to what Dragonspirit's invisible blade can pump out each round.
Kyaran 12-01-04, 09:03 PM	Instead of quoting the whole thing, as everyone else seems to have done, I'll just group these into categories by number (from the first post). Good Idea: 14,19,28,38 No Objection: 8,6,15 (moves 6 up),21,23,25,26,29 Your Choice, but I Wouldn't: 1,2,5,36 Silly: 3,9,10,33,35 You Did WHAT to Your Players?: 4,7,11,12,13,16,17,18,20,22,24,30,31,32, 34,37,39,40 Things that I feel cannot be allowed to go uncommented, as just purely uncalled for: • The new slot system. Just use common sense. You can carry as many daggers as your Str allows. You won't be able to get to all of them quickly, though. • The repeated uber-nerfing of casters (detection, teleportation, item creation, permanency). • The excessively over-done restrictive rules about XP and levels for new characters. Look at the party, average their level, subtract one and move on. With a few exceptions, this list fills me with :raincloud and :tantrum:.
Evandelé Morningstar 12-02-04, 04:13 AM	There's nothing in any of the rules that says you can't wear multiple rings or hats or belts or whatever, but there is something that says only a certain number function at once (i.e. the last two rings you put on, even though you've got on 10 [mmm...thumbs. The mark of a truely evolved creature. Jealous?]) 10 digits; 8 fingers, 2 thumbs. ;)To be more specific:20 digits; 10 fingers, 10 toes.Actually, isn't it the two [rings] that are the most powerful?Actually, NO. Read on... A character can only effectively wear two magic rings. A third magic ring doesn’t work if the wearer is already wearing two magic rings.
danielinthewolvesden 12-02-04, 04:53 AM	[color=red] 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment. 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. 25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world. 26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. These are all fine, although it appears that 6, 15 & 27 contradict each other. They are standard 'this is my campaign" house rules. In fact, in a way, they are more "starting guidelines" than "houserules". Many DM's (I am one) have the "houserule" = "No Evils", and all DM's have to set limits as to what works in their wolrd. I wouldn't expect FR regional feats anywhere except FR. #10 (not copied above) is not nessesary- although saying that FrenBerz is not acceptable as a PC class is normal. Then- you go on and pretty well make so many changes "for game balance" that you have thrown the whole carefully constructed balance of the game off. Why do you think that you know more about "game balance" than the game designers and playtesters at WotC? :rolleyes: Try playing the game will all that stuff for a couple years, then come back and let us know how "unbalanced" it was, OK? However- do note- this forum is for DM's to come and ask for help & advice. There is another forum for Houserules.
Dragonspirit 12-02-04, 12:04 PM	MoM(my): That's not the fairest comparison, because if you lower that AC by just two points, the Dervish is due to hit four more times on just the opening (and quite possibly closing) salvo. Also, I think some min maxing munchkin was telling me something about how wounding was good. :P So, if I'm the Dervish player, I think I'm going for a more offensive build and might try to find a way to get something like that. So, if you are going to do a side by side, don't show it so 'honestly'. Pimp that dervish! Pimp my ride! :) "Dragonspirit's Dervish O'Pain (IE MoM's Dervish with good weapons)" Equipment: (260,000) [2] +1 Vicious Holy scimitars of Wounding (196,000), Gloves of dexterity +6 (36,000), Belt of strength +4 (16,000), Amulet of constitution +4 (16,000), Cloak of resistance +2 (4,000), Boots of haste (12,000), Mithral chain shirt +3 (10,000), Ring of deflection +1 (2,000) Basically, change up his weapons. No time to see if I would change up the feats or try to work a level of rogue in there. +26/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11 5d6+6 +26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16 5d6+4 Against AC 31 = 5 primary/4 offhand = 45d6 + 46 + 9 constitution damage (5 * 16 hit dice for 90 damage) = 293.5 damage Against AC 26 = 7 primary/6 offhand = 65d6 + 66 + 13 constitution damage (7 * 16 hit dice for 122 damage) = 415.5 damage Now, the real fun. If everything hits = 9 primary/6 offhand = 75d6 + 78 + 16 constitution damage (8 * 16 hit dice for 138 damage) = 478.5 damage That, of course, is without critical and average rolling. I could of course get unlucky and miss a little more (hope the Barb doesn't miss his ONE attack this turn). Oh, but wait, vicious would have hurt me. That would mean the Cleric would have something to do other than pick his nose, while the thief cleaned up the pieces of the monster I just cut up. And of course, we hope that the teammates can toss a supporting magic missile or something to finish the creature off if all that madness didn't do it I hope the barbarian, by contrast, likes the full attack coming his way from big nasty while I clean my blades, and I rename myself 'Drizzt Ver 3.14' :)
Dragonspirit 12-02-04, 12:20 PM	To be more specific:20 digits; 10 fingers, 10 toes. Ack! THUMBS PEOPLE THUMBS!!! 10 toes, 8 fingers, 2 THUMBS! GLORIOUS THUMBS!!! :D Duvanok: I know. I put a lot of work into my campaigns, and I know you can really only go off of the rules you see here, but I do put a lot of energy into story and doing my best to ensure the players have a lot of fun too and I think by and large they do. And I do run the rules by the group, and I listen. I don't capitulate on everything of course, but I do give a fair ear to what's being said and I adapt. I mean, the whole point of putting the rules up here in the first place is for the very purpose of getting more feedback, and perspectives. It certainly wasn't vanity (I knew going into it that I would get a mix of limited praise, intelligent criticism, and of course flaming from some). The game and the rules are too big for any one person to have a perfect grasp of (ask MasterofMayhem his opinion of Gary Gygax for that one! :)), and I'm humble enough to realize that. And it feels redeeming that at the least if not everything is well received, many of those giving the critical analysis do see where I'm going with it and what I'm trying to accomplish. It's a fine line of course between sticking to your guns, and letting something go. And I think that's a pretty apt analogy for DMing overall, at least in my experience. :)
General Dorsey 12-02-04, 12:23 PM	I really don't think the slotting is necessary, but do whatever you think is going to work best in your game. On a side note, thumbs are considered fingers by the medical community, they only have two digits on them rather than three. Starting gear includes any wondrous items, wands, rings, etc. You don’t think I meant just armor and weapons, right? If this is the case, then the rule is 90% unnecessary. Anyone who doesn't spend their money on starting gear is a fool and deserves to start a new character up to two levels below the party. The greater turning ability doesn’t allow you to turn undead, just destroy them in place of it. And this rule really isn’t to go after attacking “mass amounts” of undead, so much as preventing undead ‘bosses’ (I hate that term, but it gets the point across) from being instantly zapped unless they surround themselves with other undead to absorb the turning. I would like a vampire, lich or some sort of high end undead I design to not be nuked off the bat if I wanted him/her to be a challenge for the party by themselves. A cleric probably will not be able to turn one of your undead bosses. Note that the CR of most creatures is roughly twice their hit dice. This means that after 5th level, turning undead is almost a pointless ability. If you are really concerned with the PCs wiping out your undead villian that fast, have the villian be more prepared. He should have things that protect him from turning attempts. He should send waves of undead at the party to force the cleric to burn up his turning for the day. I don't think this rule is needed. See, my problem with improved initiative wasn’t that one specific character (most probably the rogue) went first almost all the time, it was that the whole party got to go first if everyone takes it. I DM for a group of five right now, and if only one or two of them has it, it really won’t be a problem. But if they all have it, then it usually means 4/5 of them will go first in every fight, and THAT is when it becomes frustrating. If the players are going through the bad-guys too fast on round one, then you need to rethink how the bad-guys are run. I rarely have any of my creatures killed in a single round unless the party concentrates on one of them or gets a lucky shot or two off. The thing is though, if I didn’t have that clause, then a Cleric who played from level one to say, ten, would have less money (if treasure is kept to the recommended amounts in the DMs guide) than a new Cleric who had just joined the party. And if anything, I think seniority should be more rewarded in the game, not less. While I understand why you are doing this, you could instead subtract how much the cleric would have gotten at first level, then calculate 90% of what is left, then add in the 1st level cash you subtracted. This would simulate tithing at each level. This is one that I’ve been batting about a bit too. I can’t get the mechanics to quite reflect what I think to be a worthy goal – that caster’s be trained in the knowledge of their art. Because I understand, the Cleric and the Sorcerer get nothing for skill points so it comes down much harder on them, then the Wizard or Bard (who will either get a lot of points naturally or via their high intelligence). But to think they can be completely untrained or ignorant of their religion, magic, etc also rubs me the wrong way. I've been thinking about this one. Bards and sorcerers should be excluded because they learn their spells intuitively or through some innate power. Divine casters must already remain in good standing with their gods to be able to cast their spells. You may not need to worry about this one. The tithing may be able to cover this. The divine casters get their spells by the grace of their god, I think this can be overlooked. The wizard (and other arcane casters) already have to spend time and money to research a new spell and place it in their book, so this is already covered in the rules as well. I think you may be able to remove this one and make things a bit easier on the players. That actually sounds pretty good to me, I think I’ll implement it. A minor ability given for a minor one taken. Glad you liked my idea. On another side note, I've been thinking about this more and more, I don't think you have any more house rules than most people posting here. You have written them down and tried to keep them consistant, but that is all. I'll bet if everyone here wrote down all the rulings they've had to make, they'll find that they are right there with you on the number of rules.
Kainy 12-02-04, 03:37 PM	Kainy: You think a 15th level character is only going to have mundane scimitars? I have a 12th level character with a pair of Holy Daggers +1. Giving the dervish in your example just that, increases the damage 30d6 + 15. Since, you know, you never fight opponents where that +2 bonus is useless... i.e. where they're neutral or even good. Lazy DMing leading to "overpowered" characters... go read the thread about those two topics in Regdar's.
PhaedrusXY 12-02-04, 04:21 PM	Just looking at your revised list from post 52, it doesn't look all that horrible to me. It is quite a restrictive type of game, but if you are up front with your players about that before hand, then I don't see it as a big deal. I've played in both games like this and games that were extremely lenient. Both types can be fun if the DM can weave a fun story that everyone can get into and adjucate the rules fairly at the same time. And as you said, I also prefer to have house rules laid out before hand, even if they are restrictive, rather than be railroaded after I've already made my character, to prevent me from doing something the DM percieves as too powerful.
masterofmayhem 12-04-04, 06:00 PM	MoM(my): That's not the fairest comparison, because if you lower that AC by just two points, the Dervish is due to hit four more times on just the opening (and quite possibly closing) salvo. Also, I think some min maxing munchkin was telling me something about how wounding was good. :P So, if I'm the Dervish player, I think I'm going for a more offensive build and might try to find a way to get something like that. So, if you are going to do a side by side, don't show it so 'honestly'. Pimp that dervish! Pimp my ride! :) "Dragonspirit's Dervish O'Pain (IE MoM's Dervish with good weapons)" Equipment: (260,000) [2] +1 Vicious Holy scimitars of Wounding (196,000), Gloves of dexterity +6 (36,000), Belt of strength +4 (16,000), Amulet of constitution +4 (16,000), Cloak of resistance +2 (4,000), Boots of haste (12,000), Mithral chain shirt +3 (10,000), Ring of deflection +1 (2,000) Basically, change up his weapons. No time to see if I would change up the feats or try to work a level of rogue in there. +26/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11 5d6+6 +26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16 5d6+4 Against AC 31 = 5 primary/4 offhand = 45d6 + 46 + 9 constitution damage (5 * 16 hit dice for 90 damage) = 293.5 damage Against AC 26 = 7 primary/6 offhand = 65d6 + 66 + 13 constitution damage (7 * 16 hit dice for 122 damage) = 415.5 damage Now, the real fun. If everything hits = 9 primary/6 offhand = 75d6 + 78 + 16 constitution damage (8 * 16 hit dice for 138 damage) = 478.5 damage That, of course, is without critical and average rolling. I could of course get unlucky and miss a little more (hope the Barb doesn't miss his ONE attack this turn). Oh, but wait, vicious would have hurt me. That would mean the Cleric would have something to do other than pick his nose, while the thief cleaned up the pieces of the monster I just cut up. And of course, we hope that the teammates can toss a supporting magic missile or something to finish the creature off if all that madness didn't do it I hope the barbarian, by contrast, likes the full attack coming his way from big nasty while I clean my blades, and I rename myself 'Drizzt Ver 3.14' :) So it was 293.5 damage the first round, with less on later rounds? That still comes out to less than my barbarian with multiple rounds (remember monsters have 75% more HPs than normal! ;)). And, also, as has been pointed out to me multiple times, you fight something with no constitution score, you lose. Also, assuming it is big, you lose again when it takes one of its attacks to trip you next round. ;)
masterofmayhem 12-04-04, 06:13 PM	A cleric probably will not be able to turn one of your undead bosses. Note that the CR of most creatures is roughly twice their hit dice. This means that after 5th level, turning undead is almost a pointless ability. If you are really concerned with the PCs wiping out your undead villian that fast, have the villian be more prepared. He should have things that protect him from turning attempts. He should send waves of undead at the party to force the cleric to burn up his turning for the day. I don't think this rule is needed. If the boss were a zombie, that would be true. However, a lich would not be able to have many HD due to his rather large level adjustment. The turn resistance does help, but not enough to offset a given cleric's turning (check out my RSoP's turning damage somewhere up there). Since, you know, you never fight opponents where that +2 bonus is useless... i.e. where they're neutral or even good. You're right, you don't. Especially not in Return to Castle Maure. ;)
masterofmayhem 12-04-04, 06:20 PM	Lazy DMing leading to "overpowered" characters... go read the thread about those two topics in Regdar's. 5 Powergamers + 1 Lazy DM = Disaster (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=343222) That one? It didn't seem to have any particular bearing on our situation . . . EDIT: Ah, dangit! I submitted my thread instead of editing and adding it again . . . Oh, nevermind, you must have meant this one. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=170304) My mistake.
monkeywrench 12-04-04, 08:02 PM	System for Bringing in New Characters Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. This is lame. Let them roll 4d6 for it with two re-rolls for bad ones. If you think their rolls are bad in comparison with everyone else, LET THEM ROLL AGAIN! ---- Banned & Errata List Banned: Items- Metamagic Rods Spiked Chain Magic Food Items (Ring of Sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, etc.) Non-standard Items (Those not appearing in published material or within the campaign.) Dual Quality Items (Primarily two or more wondrous items blended into one) Spells- Greater Turning (Sun Domain gets another domain ability to be determined). Long Distance travel spells (Teleport, Greater Teleport, Wind Walk, Tree Stride, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds, Shadow Walk, etc.) Feats- Feats specific to other campaign world settings (Forgotten Realms “region” feats) Twin Spell Gift of Grace Nemesis Nymph’s Kiss Vow of Nonviolence Vow of Peace Vow of Poverty Words of Creation Classes- Psionic Classes Dancing Dervish Frenzied Berserker Radiant Servant of Pelor Oh Lord, where to being with this crap... Metamagic rods aren't overpowered. They have a very hefty price, a level of spell limit, and a limited times per day they can be used. Not to mention sorcerers are still gimped with using them. The spiked chain is also not overpowered, you just don't know how to deal with it. "Oh look, you tripped the enemy spellcaster. Huh, too bad he can still cast while prone. Make a reflex save against that fireball he just lauched at you" There's plenty of ways to nullify a spiked chain's advantages. Try learning them instead of just removing it. The rest of the items are fine, though I don't see why you bothered with the food ones. Seems a little silly Your teleportation spell banning is baffling to me. Why would you want to eliminate this at all? There are plenty of ways to deal with the fact that your players can teleport, many are listed in Complete Arcane. Once again, stop banning stuff to cover up your shortcomings Twin Spell? Why? What POSSIBLE reason could you have for that? Oh, here we go. The DERVISH (not dancing dervish), Frenzied Beserker, and Radiant Servant whining continues. If you can't figure out how to make encounters which appropriately handle those characters, then really man, turn the book over to someone else. Dervishs need a lot of space to fight in. They also don't fare as well against higher numbers of monsters all Full Attacking them. Frenzied Beserkers have horrible Will Saves. Really, go look around these very forums to find out how to generate encounters which challenge these PrCs. Search function is a beautiful thing. Errata: Items- Unique Items (Such as ‘Celestial Armor’ may have more, but not less, standard enhancements.) Spells- Identify (Uses no spell components.) Feats- Improved Initiative (Requires a Dexterity of 16.) Classes- Mystic Theurge (Spellcasting classes must key off different attributes.) ---- Idenfity rule seems fine. Improved Initiative is just dumb. First you outright ban it, then you give it a high dex requirement. Are you just mortally terrified of allowing your PCs to go first in combar? Really, man, come on. And what's the deal with this Mystic Theurge change? It just seems completely arbitrary for you to just nerf it like this. And useless, because almost all divine casters are keyed off Wisdom, while Arcanists are Int or Cha. When has this ever been a problem for you? It seems like it would have to be a VERY specific class combo House Rules 1. Characters get at least ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Lessens the randomness of hit points thereby preventing a character from being hamstrung by a few poor rolls. 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice. To offset the hit point advantage for PCs from the above rule. Seems okay to me, if a bit needless 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including that PrC). No multiple characters of the same Prestige Class at the same time. (Exception: A ‘3 level’ PrC may be taken in addition to another PrC, but still counts toward the three class limit). Limit’s the scope of a character so that it is thematically more consistent. A Prestige Class should be the pinnacle of a character’s theme and role. What about 5-level PrCs? If you include them in the exception, I'll agree with this rule wholeheartedly. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. Ioun Stones will now occupy the head slot (though there is no limit to the number of Ioun stones that may be in place). Establishes a consistent system for possessions. Oh, I see the problem, you want to play Diablo, not DnD! Well, I hope that clears a lot up. 5. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment. Good rules, evil drools. Good rule. 6. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects. Heaven forbid we actually let the Players USE their class features. 7. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, and type of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now. Wait, now I think you're trying to play Final Fantasy. Either way, go pick up a controller or open up your games folder, man. 8. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely, and variants on the traditional races in the Monster’s Manual so long as they have no level adjustment. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world. I disagree with the balance thing, that's what Level Adjustments are for. But if you want to eliminate them because of your campaign world, that's absolutely fine. 9. Classes with divine casting levels or gifts must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders. Why the hell should druids tithe? Honestly, it just sounds like you want to nerf the amount of gold your divine casters have. That's just stupid. 10. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. The primary effect of perform should not be easily emulated by otherwise more useful skills. Perhaps not, but it would make sense to give them a synergy bonus of +2, perhaps, don't you think? 11. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion. I have no problem with this, though it's almost never been a problem. A Wizard without full Knowledge:Arcana ranks is just a poor Wizard, really.
Crossover-Chronicler 12-05-04, 01:42 AM	If you think about it, there already is a slot system built into the game, but WotC (in their infinite wisdom) did not apply it to weapons. Why, other than slotting, are you allowed to only have two rings (especially when you have eight fingers)? One suit of armor? One belt? Essentially, by not putting forth any sort of system for weapons, they have left DMs in the unenviable position of having to say “umm… that sounds good?” and making arbitrary limits on what the players can hold. And without a solid system that is going to vary, and ultimately be unfair. Let me ask you something. How many daggers could I carry before it becomes ridiculous? 4000? 3999? 3998? See where I’m going?There's already a system; that's why item descriptions include weight, and why the encumbrance rules exist; heck, with a little extra work you can further limit possessions by volume. A bag of holding or handy haversack would make the numbers you mentioned a lot more reasonable. The greater turning ability doesn’t allow you to turn undead, just destroy them in place of it. And this rule really isn’t to go after attacking “mass amounts” of undead, so much as preventing undead ‘bosses’ (I hate that term, but it gets the point across) from being instantly zapped unless they surround themselves with other undead to absorb the turning. I would like a vampire, lich or some sort of high end undead I design to not be nuked off the bat if I wanted him/her to be a challenge for the party by themselves.Well, vampires and liches are harder to destroy than that; they tend to come back unless you meet the special conditions for their destruction. Further, many tougher undead have Turn Resistance. Smarter undead will also lair in areas under the protection of desecrate and similar spells. Pulling a Greater Turning on an undead "boss monster" is a long shot at best, and not even completely effective. See, my problem with improved initiative wasn’t that one specific character (most probably the rogue) went first almost all the time, it was that the whole party got to go first if everyone takes it. I DM for a group of five right now, and if only one or two of them has it, it really won’t be a problem. But if they all have it, then it usually means 4/5 of them will go first in every fight, and THAT is when it becomes frustrating.Why? So the players go first; big deal. It's not inherently game-breaking, since feats are there to grant advantages. And any creature designed to present a challenge should be designed to survive the first round. This is one that I’ve been batting about a bit too. I can’t get the mechanics to quite reflect what I think to be a worthy goal – that caster’s be trained in the knowledge of their art. Because I understand, the Cleric and the Sorcerer get nothing for skill points so it comes down much harder on them, then the Wizard or Bard (who will either get a lot of points naturally or via their high intelligence). But to think they can be completely untrained or ignorant of their religion, magic, etc also rubs me the wrong way.Well, in the matter of divine casters there's also the argument that it's more about faith than about intimate knowledge of religious doctrine. Doubling attacks off of two handed fighting can give you FIFTEEN attacks at level 16. Then, using the Dervish’s other ability, you can do that full melee attack even from a long distance.Yeah; you can do that once a day. I see no ability that allows the Dervish to use the ability at range, so I assume you mean the fact that the Dance allows/requires the Dervish to move at least 5ft. between attacks (requiring a character to move at least 35 feet without backtracking to accomplish all 15 attacks). Keep in mind that this is a restriction as well as a benefit. Having played a Dervish, this limitation has thwarted my attempts to maul heavy opponents in the past. By comparison, the Barbarian's Rage grants hit point boosts, has a duration mechanic that can be capitalized on by Constitution-boosting, several feats (from the same book as Dervish) that enhance it, applies its benefit to any melee weapons the character wields (rather than just light slashing weapons), grants a bonus to saves, and has some applications outside of combat (other times the stat boosts/save bonuses would be handy). You’re still allowed to buy stat boosters in my campaign. You could get a headband of intellect and a periapt of wisdom. Of course, it is a tradeoff because that means you won’t get the Amulet of Health in that spot.That's just my point. You make them dependent on items, then you limit their ability to get/use items. Further, you're considtently dropping limiting crap on the Charisma-based casters, who don't have much going for them to begin with. But the idea behind the class IMO is just that – you’re trying to get the best of both worlds being a high level mage AND high level cleric. You essentially get both. But if you want both, you have to pay the tradeoff in items and stats. And allowing the Theurge to only have to worry about Charisma essentially bypasses that restriction.In one sense it does. But it imposes its own restriction by delaying acquisition of the class by 2 levels and cutting off access to the highest level of spells. you're ignoring that limiting aspect in claiming the Charisma-based version is better. It seems to me more like you're trying to ensure that the players don't ever want to play the Mystic Theurge in the first place, in which case I don't see why you don't just ban it and get it over with. Also consider, that the class was made with ‘core classes’ in mind, and there is no way to combine two core classes into the Theurge and have them key off the same ability. It’s only with the new splatbooks that built in control has been rendered mute.No they haven't. See above. Besides which, they didn't seem to think that aspect was an issue when they published the Cerebremancer in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.What differentiates say, a fighter, and a cleric in their missions? Both do ‘good’ (or evil, however it may work out) by doing their job and clearing the monsters, etc. But characters that gather their strength through their deity are serving a higher purpose. If it were just about taking out the trash then there would be no logical reason the deity shouldn’t grant his/her powers to those characters as well.Yes there is. One is a cleric, a sworn servant and a prepared channel for the deity's holy power. The other is a fighter who happens to share the cleric's religion and ethics. If the cleric's power is keyed to knowledge, then it's more than a matter of the deity sending its power; if it's all a matter of who the deity chooses, why are the Knowledge-skill rules in place?But obviously that’s not the case – they are also seeking to promote the church, mosque, etc.No they aren't. They're seeking to serve the will of the deity. If that includes supporting the church, so be it. And one of the primary means that is accomplished is how any business (no offense to religion) is promoted – money. And tithing is an ancient, and fairly accurate, historical construct as to how that is accomplished. Of course, here we’re getting less into the ‘crunchy’ and more into philosophy.Not all priests in a religion were required to tithe, and not all religions demanded tithes of their priests. I certainly don't see this in regard to Druids, and even with Paladins and Clerics of some deities it seems shaky. Holy power is a matter of either a deity's favor, or of priestly training. Neither requires the faithful to continue paying money into the institution. If the god's happy, the church's financial situation is moot. If the god is unhappy, the church's financial situation is moot. Further, D&D is in no way about historical accuracy; if it were, your first duty would be to remove Scimitar from the Druid's weapon list. And of course your second would be to restrict available weapons and armor (and weapon proficiency) based on time period and geography, and probably completely edit out the Barbarian while you're at it, while restricting the Monk to the appropriate regions. Then remove "Common" as a language and replace it with an incomprehensible hodgepodge of dialects and languages. Dragonspirit does not like how a melee character can get a full attack from a distance with melee damage (which is normally better than ranged damage). If you want to dissuade him, figure out the average damages for barbarians as opposed to dervishes. Of course, that could result in the barbarian being banned.Already pointed to some of this. Number of attacks is not the sole arbiter of character power, especially against opponents with high AC (whom the attacks with reduced attack bonus are less likely to hit). Supposedly, (this was before I was playing) the group's sorceress used Detect Magic before every room they went into to sem if the room was even worth going into. Or mayve it was to scout for monster's magic items? Well, it was something like that; I forget.Thicker doors would've fixed that.You use whatever knowledge makes the most sense. Bards, sorcerers, wizards, and the like use Arcana, clerics and paladins use Religion, druids and rangers use Nature, etc.There isn't one for Favored Soul. Favored Soul casts from the Cleric list, but the only Knowledge skill it gets is Arcana. Besides which, the Favored Soul (as the name would imply) is supposed to represent a divine servant whose magic is not tied up in dogma.Or, we could just extend the normal slotting requriements to weapons and just tally the lbs, rather than calculating the cubic volume of each object.OR we could just tally the weight, dispense with silly weapon-slotting rules (a real :censored: with 3.5 damage reduction), and leave slotted the items for which balance is actually an issue.I have a 12th level character with a pair of Holy Daggers +1. Giving the dervish in your example just that, increases the damage 30d6 + 15.Daggers aren't slashing weapons. Holy Scimitars +1.Assuming you convert from dagger to scimitar, my previous comments about the limits on the Dervish's abilities still apply, and your build only works against evil opponents. OK, here's a little something I wrote up.SNIPOne can easily manipulate numbers to say whatever you want. For an example, see below:"Dragonspirit's Dervish O'Pain (IE MoM's Dervish with good weapons)"Oh come ON. First, one sign of an abusive argument ic a constant change in premise - MoM's build was based on your comment on the kewlness of the holy weapon. For a fair comparison, you should "pimp" the Barbarian as well. Second, let's look at this abomonation you've constructed:(260,000) [2] +1 Vicious Holy scimitars of Wounding (196,000), Gloves of dexterity +6 (36,000), Belt of strength +4 (16,000), Amulet of constitution +4 (16,000), Cloak of resistance +2 (4,000), Boots of haste (12,000), Mithral chain shirt +3 (10,000), Ring of deflection +1 (2,000)Right off, I see a problem: your build is designed to land a horrendous number of hits, but takes 1d6 points of damage per hit; while you can belittle that, it's still a greater hardship to the Dervish than the Barbarian, who (by MoM's build) lays out more damage in fewer hits, and who has more hit points to waste on such nonsense. So, with that abusive 15 attacks you're so worried about, your character would be suffering up to 15d6 damage. And I could easily make the argument that all you've really done is show how broken wounding weapons are.
xann 12-05-04, 12:16 PM	Man, i dont wanna be negitive, but you spent too much tyme sayin no, no, no my players would freak if i said you basically have to walk everywhere, and only take crappy items, an the wiz. in my party you suck 1/2 as much...... not very constructive eh?
masterofmayhem 12-05-04, 05:51 PM	And what's the deal with this Mystic Theurge change? It just seems completely arbitrary for you to just nerf it like this. And useless, because almost all divine casters are keyed off Wisdom, while Arcanists are Int or Cha. When has this ever been a problem for you? It seems like it would have to be a VERY specific class combo Well, we had a Sorcerer/Shugenja/Mytic Theurge once, although he wasn’t too terribly effective. In fact, I really don’t remember him doing much of anything, other than what your typical sorcerer might do . . . Yeah; you can do that once a day. I see no ability that allows the Dervish to use the ability at range, so I assume you mean the fact that the Dance allows/requires the Dervish to move at least 5ft. between attacks (requiring a character to move at least 35 feet without backtracking to accomplish all 15 attacks). Keep in mind that this is a restriction as well as a benefit. Having played a Dervish, this limitation has thwarted my attempts to maul heavy opponents in the past. By comparison, the Barbarian's Rage grants hit point boosts, has a duration mechanic that can be capitalized on by Constitution-boosting, several feats (from the same book as Dervish) that enhance it, applies its benefit to any melee weapons the character wields (rather than just light slashing weapons), grants a bonus to saves, and has some applications outside of combat (other times the stat boosts/save bonuses would be handy). Well, we usually only have one or two combats a day. There are not many random encounters, and one or two combats in a place where we’re two levels lower than we should be pretty much exhausts our spells/resources. Well, vampires and liches are harder to destroy than that; they tend to come back unless you meet the special conditions for their destruction. Further, many tougher undead have Turn Resistance. Smarter undead will also lair in areas under the protection of desecrate and similar spells. Pulling a Greater Turning on an undead "boss monster" is a long shot at best, and not even completely effective. But with the right build and items (high charisma, phylactery of undead turning, etc.), it can still be done, and easily enough as well. For example, say you have a 13th level lich (CR 15), which is a good boss for a group of 12th level characters. With a phylactery of undead turning and 20 charisma (from a cloak + 4), you would need to roll only an 8 or better to instantly kill that lich. So better than a 50% chance. If you fail the first roll, just roll again next turn. Why? So the players go first; big deal. It's not inherently game-breaking, since feats are there to grant advantages. And any creature designed to present a challenge should be designed to survive the first round. It’s been seen to be “game-breaking” before, when the sorceress fires a maximized scorching ray for 72 damage (that’s why it’s banned), the cleric flamestrikes for 30 damage, the barbarian charges and deals 30 or so damage, and the rouge sneak attacks for another 30 damage. No they haven't. See above. Besides which, they didn't seem to think that aspect was an issue when they published the Cerebremancer in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Yeah, one of our players is an elan cerebremancer, too. That’s why psionics are banned. Thicker doors would've fixed that. Yeah, well, ‘tis a bit too late now for that ounce of prevention, eh? ;) There isn't one for Favored Soul. Favored Soul casts from the Cleric list, but the only Knowledge skill it gets is Arcana. Besides which, the Favored Soul (as the name would imply) is supposed to represent a divine servant whose magic is not tied up in dogma. What book is favored soul in, anyway? It sounds like ban-material, what with all that power and no restrictions and all. ;) OR we could just tally the weight, dispense with silly weapon-slotting rules (a realwith 3.5 damage reduction), and leave slotted the items for which balance is actually an issue. What about slotting makes DR annoying? The necessity of multiple weapons to bypass the DR? It doesn’t really matter, anyway; we either fight enemies with DR/— or we never can figure out what type of DR the creature has. Which is why Dragonspirit wants to have a consistent system for the knowledge skills, too. Daggers aren't slashing weapons. Daggers are piercing or slashing. Dagger 2 gp 1d3 1d4 19–20/x2 10 ft. 1 lb. Piercing or slashing One can easily manipulate numbers to say whatever you want. For an example, see below: I tried, but I couldn’t do it well enough with a 28 point-buy. :raincloud Heh. I wanted to make a swashbuckler dervish, but I just ran out of points.
Crossover-Chronicler 12-06-04, 12:44 AM	Well, we usually only have one or two combats a day. There are not many random encounters, and one or two combats in a place where we’re two levels lower than we should be pretty much exhausts our spells/resources.And that setup favors any character with powerful abilities limited by use/day.But with the right build and items (high charisma, phylactery of undead turning, etc.), it can still be done, and easily enough as well. For example, say you have a 13th level lich (CR 15), which is a good boss for a group of 12th level characters. With a phylactery of undead turning and 20 charisma (from a cloak + 4), you would need to roll only an 8 or better to instantly kill that lich. So better than a 50% chance. If you fail the first roll, just roll again next turn.But in a day or two the Lich comes back, and he wants you dead. And rolling again is kinda nice, save that you can only perform Greater Turning once a day. Twice with Radiant Servant of Pelor, but it's been banned as well.It’s been seen to be “game-breaking” before, when the sorceress fires a maximized scorching ray for 72 damage (that’s why it’s banned),that maximized scorching ray isn't game-breaking later in the turn?the cleric flamestrikes for 30 damage, the barbarian charges and deals 30 or so damage, and the rouge sneak attacks for another 30 damage.At which point Improved Initiative isn't the problem. The problem has to do with fragile monsters (as the monster hp rule might also indicate).Yeah, one of our players is an elan cerebremancer, too. That’s why psionics are banned.Because overreaction is the word of the day?Yeah, well, ‘tis a bit too late now for that ounce of prevention, eh? ;)But it's not too late to house-rule?What book is favored soul in, anyway? It sounds like ban-material, what with all that power and no restrictions and all. ;)It's from complete divine, the same sourcebook as the 3.5 Shugenja. It does have restrictions: the Favored Soul advances in spells as a Sorcerer (gaining spell levels a level later than Cleric), gets no Domains, no Turning, and must have an alignment identical to the deity's (no godless Favored Souls allowed).What about slotting makes DR annoying? The necessity of multiple weapons to bypass the DR?Yes.It doesn’t really matter, anyway; we either fight enemies with DR/— or we never can figure out what type of DR the creature has.Some general rules that even a low-DC Knowledge(Arcana) check would yield: Demons/Devils-Good, Feys-cold iron, Lycanthropes-silver, Various-Magic, Constructs-Adamantine.Which is why Dragonspirit wants to have a consistent system for the knowledge skills, too.And I don't dispute the Knowledge rule, for all that I believe it's unnecessary.Daggers are piercing or slashing. Dagger 2 gp 1d3 1d4 19–20/x2 10 ft. 1 lb. Piercing or slashingI stand corrected.I tried, but I couldn’t do it well enough with a 28 point-buy. :raincloud Heh. I wanted to make a swashbuckler dervish, but I just ran out of points.What I meant to say is that a set of numbers stacked up next to one another doesn't prove anything when it comes to balance in play. Someone can always come along with a different set of numbers.
evangelion1010 12-06-04, 01:31 AM	Too many rules, many of them short sighted/ inane. You take things that are actually fairly balanced, then decided to arbitarly say some were and weren't balanced, unbalancing the game.... Limits on classes/PrCs - as long as it flows, allow it. I'm going to be a hex 3/urban ranger 2/rogue 2/MtW 5/ IB 5/???3. I'm a streetwise dagger wielder who happens to have training resisting magic. Hexblade 3 fit that, as did imp evasion. I didn't necessairly use the hexblade background, only the abilities, for balance. (not that it matters as i can't make up magic items, and i can't carry more than a few daggers) Limits on 'mundane' magic forms. Is predisgnation(sp) forbidden because its too utilitarian? I can't magically feed myself, but i can stop time, but only carry only a few weapons, etc. you run somethings far too strictly, and others not at all. That unbalances the game. CW and the core books aren' THAT unbalanced.
Dragonspirit 12-06-04, 02:14 AM	General Dorsey: Anyone who doesn't spend their money on starting gear is a fool and deserves to start a new character up to two levels below the party. Problem was (this is the thing that inspired the rule. As a side note, most of my rules are usually not pre-emptive but rather have been the result of me seeing it happen. My players are often too darn smart and think of things like this [though they AREN’T as evil as me, and evil > smart. :)]) a player chose to hang onto a bunch of their loot (per the DMG guidelines for appropriate treasure level) and took item creation feats, then sought to maybe earn a session or two of experience and just survive, and then burn it with all the unspent gold and thus get effectively twice their money’s worth for that level. To put it into numerical terms, at 12th level the DMG recommends a character to have 88,000gps of treasure. Character Joe takes item creation feats, spends 30,000 for whatever, and saves 58,000gps. After a couple sessions, he has a couple thousand-experience points above 12th level. He then goes into item creation mode, and since item creation only costs about half of the sell value, now has (58,000 * 2) + (30,000 original) = 146,000gps worth of treasure. Factor in feats like Magic Artisan (which reduces item creation costs) and you have a character that is well and above the item value of his level (and, due to progressive experience gains due to the CR system, will recoup that experience faster than his slightly higher level party members). Now, of course, there are answers to that I could do. Rust monsters, Black Puddings, Sunder happy Barbarians, Sneaky thieves, etc can quickly even up the treasure stack but we’d have to admit that would effectively be railroading the player for his ingenuity. Not to mention, such solutions could also unfairly punish the other party members. It’s a big mess, you know? I could go to whatever lengths, or I could simply put in this cap that doesn’t really ruin things for a player, but kills the problem and keeps the intent of starting treasure to it’s appropriate level. A cleric probably will not be able to turn one of your undead bosses. Note that the CR of most creatures is roughly twice their hit dice. This means that after 5th level, turning undead is almost a pointless ability. You should read Master of Mayhem’s post for that. It’s ugly how it works, and trust me came as a shock to me how simple and devastating it was. And again, there are answers and I really considered them, but they weren’t satisfying. There are spells, and of course you can always make the underground lair somehow inhibit turning (Altars of ‘I hate Pelor!’ :)). And you can of course send swarms of other undead to absorb the hate. But there are times where you’d like to maybe send an undead (maybe some sort of vampire) out into the over world to challenge the PCs and you don’t want to have to resort to the same answers. And you know, I have no problem with player’s making a character that excels at fighting a certain type. I find the Hunter of the Dead from CW to be perfectly fine. But I had the call here between ‘excel’ and ‘utterly whomp’, and there is just no way to see it as anything but the latter. I've been thinking about this one. Bards and sorcerers should be excluded because they learn their spells intuitively or through some innate power. Divine casters must already remain in good standing with their gods to be able to cast their spells. You may not need to worry about this one. The tithing may be able to cover this. The divine casters get their spells by the grace of their god, I think this can be overlooked. The wizard (and other arcane casters) already have to spend time and money to research a new spell and place it in their book, so this is already covered in the rules as well. I think you may be able to remove this one and make things a bit easier on the players. It can be justified that they don’t have knowledge (I think more so with the ‘intuitive’ casters than the others), but I have to say it bothers me a lot. Any church fundamentally is going to teach their people the precepts of their faith. And whereas some sort of walk in to the church might not quite need it, anyone who hopes to advance to even a youth group leader is going to have to know some things about the religion. And for the wizard, it would be like he’s performing surgery without knowing medicine (Hi everybody! Hi Dr. Nick! Who knew inflammable meant flammable?) :) All that said, it might turn out that the in game mechanic might not merit the rule. It’s one I’ll have to reflect on more I think. On another side note, I've been thinking about this more and more, I don't think you have any more house rules than most people posting here. You have written them down and tried to keep them consistant, but that is all. I'll bet if everyone here wrote down all the rulings they've had to make, they'll find that they are right there with you on the number of rules. Thanks. I think so too, because I really am just the type that likes to get it all in the open up front. And, you know, whereas I might ban a spell or a feat here and there, whatever I don’t exclude is by default included. My game is a lot more open ended than I think some are getting on first impression.
General Dorsey 12-06-04, 02:59 AM	Problem was (this is the thing that inspired the rule. As a side note, most of my rules are usually not pre-emptive but rather have been the result of me seeing it happen. My players are often too darn smart and think of things like this [though they AREN’T as evil as me, and evil > smart. ]) a player chose to hang onto a bunch of their loot (per the DMG guidelines for appropriate treasure level) and took item creation feats, then sought to maybe earn a session or two of experience and just survive, and then burn it with all the unspent gold and thus get effectively twice their money’s worth for that level. This is actually the way it is meant to be done. However, I agree with you on this point. I simply would not allow them the time to create those items. 58,000 gp worth of magic items will take almost 2 months to create and 2320 XP. The feats only change the cost, the base cost never changes. I would ask them to explain, in the background of their character, why they decided to hoard all the money. Now, of course, there are answers to that I could do. There are always things you can do. I understand what you are trying to do here (with all your rules). You don't want to have to play DM vs Players. You want to write a fun story without seeking out to destroy what you have given them. Too many DMs metagame like that. You should read Master of Mayhem’s post for that. It’s ugly how it works, and trust me came as a shock to me how simple and devastating it was. And again, there are answers and I really considered them, but they weren’t satisfying. I read it, but I really don't think that the lich (or any major undead player like that) would be so easily defeated. They are where they are because they anticipate minor inconviences such as clerics. There is a range (60 ft) and limited attempts per day. The lich or vampire should have plenty of minions in the way so that the cleric spends all his attempts before even getting within 60 ft. However, I do see your point as there are ways for the cleric to get close enough and still be able to turn. I have yet to see a cleric's turning useful after the mid levels myself. Any church fundamentally is going to teach their people the precepts of their faith. And whereas some sort of walk in to the church might not quite need it, anyone who hopes to advance to even a youth group leader is going to have to know some things about the religion. You are describing the difference between piety and hierarchy. As has been proven by many religous and polical leaders throughout time, knowledge is not a good indicator of ability to perform.
Dragonspirit 12-06-04, 03:24 AM	Crossover-Chronicler There's already a system; that's why item descriptions include weight, and why the encumbrance rules exist; heck, with a little extra work you can further limit possessions by volume. I do use weight and encumbrance also. And of course, a player can have (and probably should) a HHH or BoH to hold extra items. But this is mostly to measure what a player may have on their body, readily accessible. We’ve been using this one for the most part for quite awhile, and I didn’t really hear much complaint about it. Why? So the players go first; big deal. It's not inherently game-breaking, since feats are there to grant advantages. And any creature designed to present a challenge should be designed to survive the first round. You know, I heard the arguments and I recanted to an extent because you guys had a good point. The feat isn’t game breaking, and it’s not gone. It simply has a requirement now that will limit its universality. I think that’s a fair compromise. I see no ability that allows the Dervish to use the ability at range, so I assume you mean the fact that the Dance allows/requires the Dervish to move at least 5ft. between attacks (requiring a character to move at least 35 feet without backtracking to accomplish all 15 attacks). I don’t have the copy of CW here, but I am almost positive that you are allowed to do a dervish dance from far away. You get a move action, and then you get a full attack provided you move five feet between each attack. Thus, if you were 30ft away you could start the dance, move up the 30 feet to the target, hit, move 5ft, hit, move 5ft, hit… etc in a circle around said target. You make them dependent on items, then you limit their ability to get/use items. They are as dependant on items as most other characters, maybe even less so since there is the option for the 32pt value array, since 28pt buy is usually standard (someone mentioned that Grayhawk RPGA uses it). And their ability to acquire items is no more restricted than anyone else (contract, construct, find, buy, etc). Using them, of course, is but I never denied that. It’s a tradeoff between those Ioun Stones and the Headband of Intellect, or that Amulet of Health and that Periapt of Wisdom. In one sense it does. But it imposes its own restriction by delaying acquisition of the class by 2 levels and cutting off access to the highest level of spells. you're ignoring that limiting aspect in claiming the Charisma-based version is better. It seems to me more like you're trying to ensure that the players don't ever want to play the Mystic Theurge in the first place, in which case I don't see why you don't just ban it and get it over with. If my claim is wrong that a Charisma based (ie one stat) version is better, then why would you say that I am ensuring the players won’t want to play it? It would seem you would have to concede the legitimacy of that claim in order to make yours that I am making the class unviable? In other words, if you play a Theurge in my campaign with different prime stats, then there is no change. It seems almost like you’re claiming that the class is only playable if you are allowed to use the same stat to key both spell progressions. If the cleric's power is keyed to knowledge, then it's more than a matter of the deity sending its power; if it's all a matter of who the deity chooses, why are the Knowledge-skill rules in place? Then which would you say it is? Let me say this. I think a cleric is chosen/accepted/whatever in order to further a Deity’s specific agenda. Now, that deity may be good or evil, but simply advancing goodness and evilness isn’t sufficient because of course ANYONE can do that. The Cleric has to be something special. The deity is loaning those powers out, not as a favor or a price to pay, but to give that Cleric a means to do it’s work and further it’s agenda. You know, build my churches, get me converts, find my artifact, destroy my rival’s churches, kill his converts, steal his artifacts, :) etc in addition to the general purpose goals of promote good, law, chaos, evil, etc. If the god's happy, the church's financial situation is moot. If the god is unhappy, the church's financial situation is moot. Further, D&D is in no way about historical accuracy What if the god is neither ready to smite you, nor is its expectations met? Mr. Cleric is supposed to be going to meet those expectations out of loyalty of worship. As for historical accuracy, of course the game isn’t perfect in that regard. At the same time, we don’t allow spaceships into the game either because we are trying to promote a general consistency in the theme/timeline. And when we can do that, we should. Tithing makes the structure of religious institution, and the expectation of higher purpose, much more readily viewed and tangible. So, with that abusive 15 attacks you're so worried about, your character would be suffering up to 15d6 damage. And I could easily make the argument that all you've really done is show how broken wounding weapons are. My point with dueling MoM (other than our friendly rivalry) on that particular issue wasn’t so much the build itself, but just to demonstrate that the strengths and potential abusiveness of the class should be played to the hilt to best gauge the abusiveness of a given character – in this case, giving other modifiers to those weapons rather than straight +1 enchancements.
Crossover-Chronicler 12-06-04, 01:25 PM	I do use weight and encumbrance also. And of course, a player can have (and probably should) a HHH or BoH to hold extra items. But this is mostly to measure what a player may have on their body, readily accessible. We’ve been using this one for the most part for quite awhile, and I didn’t really hear much complaint about it.Then what's all the hyperbole about 4,000 daggers? A character has daggers, you ask him where he keeps them. It seems kinda simple. I don’t have the copy of CW here, but I am almost positive that you are allowed to do a dervish dance from far away. You get a move action, and then you get a full attack provided you move five feet between each attack. Thus, if you were 30ft away you could start the dance, move up the 30 feet to the target, hit, move 5ft, hit, move 5ft, hit… etc in a circle around said target.No, a Dervish can move total distance up to her speed. If she runs out of movement (or is stopped) she runs out of attacks.They are as dependant on items as most other characters, maybe even less so since there is the option for the 32pt value array, since 28pt buy is usually standard (someone mentioned that Grayhawk RPGA uses it). And their ability to acquire items is no more restricted than anyone else (contract, construct, find, buy, etc). Using them, of course, is but I never denied that. It’s a tradeoff between those Ioun Stones and the Headband of Intellect, or that Amulet of Health and that Periapt of Wisdom.A tradeoff they must make to access their high-level class ability (spells), and must make twice where other spellcasters would only have to make it once.If my claim is wrong that a Charisma based (ie one stat) version is better, then why would you say that I am ensuring the players won’t want to play it?What? What are you asking here? "If you're correct that my logic is plawed, then why would you say I'm acting on flawed logic?"It would seem you would have to concede the legitimacy of that claim in order to make yours that I am making the class unviable?I didn't say the two-stat rule alone made it unviable. I said the two-stat rule combined with your stat-generation rules did. One makes a one-stat Mystic Thurge impossible (it's just plain not allowed) while the other weakens the two-stat Mystic Theurge.In other words, if you play a Theurge in my campaign with different prime stats, then there is no change. It seems almost like you’re claiming that the class is only playable if you are allowed to use the same stat to key both spell progressions.I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that as a campaign using your rules reaches higher levels, the Mystic Theurge will become increasingly less effective.[Quote]Then which would you say it is?That's not my decision to make, but I think it's one you should, for the sake of consistency - but in neither case does it seem that the character's financial dealings would be the primary factor. ("Power has a price. Literally.")Let me say this. I think a cleric is chosen/accepted/whatever in order to further a Deity’s specific agenda. Now, that deity may be good or evil, but simply advancing goodness and evilness isn’t sufficient because of course ANYONE can do that. The Cleric has to be something special.So what's wrong with being an exemplar of the faith, upholding the doctrine, et al (including some vows followed only by the priesthood)? Why does it have to be about money, with regard to every religion (especially the Good ones) in the setting?The deity is loaning those powers out, not as a favor or a price to pay, but to give that Cleric a means to do it’s work and further it’s agenda. You know, build my churches, get me converts, find my artifact, destroy my rival’s churches, kill his converts, steal his artifacts,Fair enough Where in that is "pay 10% of your loot back to the church to make up for the other knuckleheads who aren't doing anything useful"?etc in addition to the general purpose goals of promote good, law, chaos, evil, etc.Well, there's also "promote justice" (for a god of justice), "promote nature" (for a god of nature), etc., and other specifics that a fighter who happens to share an alignment might skimp on.What if the god is neither ready to smite you, nor is its expectations met?Then the cleric gets no spells 'til the god is satisfied.Mr. Cleric is supposed to be going to meet those expectations out of loyalty of worship.That's right. And that means living the faith, not paying money into a terrestrial hierarchy.As for historical accuracy, of course the game isn’t perfect in that regard. At the same time, we don’t allow spaceships into the game either because we are trying to promote a general consistency in the theme/timeline.We don't? Didn't the 3.0 DMG include brief overview on high-tech weapons? What about Spelljammer? And when we can do that, we should. Tithing makes the structure of religious institution, and the expectation of higher purpose, much more readily viewed and tangible.It also makes the divine characters' equipment per level inferior to that of the rest of the party. It seems to me that a better wayto make the expectations and structure of religious institutions "more readily viewed and tangible" would be to apply them - commandments, holy laws, taboos, holy days, feasts, fasts, religious rivalries, edicts and orders handed down from superiors, etc.My point with dueling MoM (other than our friendly rivalry) on that particular issue wasn’t so much the build itself, but just to demonstrate that the strengths and potential abusiveness of the class should be played to the hilt to best gauge the abusiveness of a given character – in this case, giving other modifiers to those weapons rather than straight +1 enchancements.All you've demonstrated is that a charcter optimized to a single value is going to be good when measured solely by that value. The best way I've found to measure "brokenness" of a class is to run it in a few games.
Harmonica 12-06-04, 06:09 PM	I've been reading this thread for the last couple of days now. I think you have hit it off wrong by posting so many house rules. What I gather from your posts is that your players have abused some rules/Prc's/items/powergaming and have perhaps taken advantage of a relaxed DM-style/DM- rule knowledge. What I think you should have done is: ask it here. Instead of noting all the things that you think have imbalanced your game in the past and make house rules to counterbalance, you could have come here and ask other DM's how they deal with it. Almost everything on your list can be dealt with if you have the knack of it, as the many posts above have tried to show. The wonderfull thing of 3.x is that a DM has many more options to use the rules to counterbalance powergaming etc., because you can do it too. Simply create a Frenzied Barb to fight the Frenz-Barb. If all your players have impr. init, have your BBEG/monsters also take the feat (or better yet he rolls a 20 on init. :D). If you want the world to reflect more of how you see it, have the wizard need his K:Arcana for the quests. Have the priest donate money after a disaster, when there are hungry children hanging on his robes... The possibilities are endless (and way better for roleplaying opportunities) and a heck of a lot better than ruling: "You must tithe" or "You must have knowledge". Because you have created all those rules and put a lot of time in them, I think you are unwilling to let them go. Many DM-'s have "House rules" but they are more character creation rules (but never so many and they can wing most of them if they have to). I use the following (some are on your list too): A system dealing with party death and creating a new one at level X, a rolling/point-buy "rule", I dont count item weight because it takes to much time and I (and I alone, rule 0) decide in the end what the PC's can have as class/feat/race etc. (if they plan on a powergame/munchkin character I step in). Creating so many house rules might do your game more harm than good. Again many of the above posts have tried to show you that Wizo's have put great care/time/effort in making the game balanced and your rules upset it quite a lot I think. Your revised set of rules isn't as bad as the starting ones, but I would ditch them. But if the PC's know up front what they get, you can still have a fun game (and you should, why else play D&D ;) ).
bitnine 12-06-04, 07:00 PM	I'm still wondering about one thing. There's a reclusive druid, a defender of nature who lives in the deep woods. She occaisionally fends off orcish ravagers and tends to the area. She is affiliated to no order, in fact, she has no contact with civilization. Who does she give her money to? She follows no god and is a member of no order.
masterofmayhem 12-06-04, 08:13 PM	that maximized scorching ray isn't game-breaking later in the turn? It is. Which is why the rods were also banned . . . But Dragonspirit really hated how we would kill a monster of the appropriate CR before it had a single chance to do anything. This is actually the way it is meant to be done. However, I agree with you on this point. I simply would not allow them the time to create those items. 58,000 gp worth of magic items will take almost 2 months to create and 2320 XP. The feats only change the cost, the base cost never changes. I think it is rather important to note that the character that Dragonspirit is talking about hasn't yet had enough time to create anything, even though the "requisite" number of sessions have already passed. I would ask them to explain, in the background of their character, why they decided to hoard all the money. :heehee: Same reason why we can't make stuff before we came in; we just now came into a wealth of money. See, we find this gigantic inheritance, and, BAM, we're suddenly in the campaign. ;) I read it, but I really don't think that the lich (or any major undead player like that) would be so easily defeated. They are where they are because they anticipate minor inconviences such as clerics. There is a range (60 ft) and limited attempts per day. The lich or vampire should have plenty of minions in the way so that the cleric spends all his attempts before even getting within 60 ft. However, I do see your point as there are ways for the cleric to get close enough and still be able to turn. I have yet to see a cleric's turning useful after the mid levels myself. What do you consider "mid levels"? Last session our 12th level party beat a CR 12 undead creature in one turn, on the first round, because the cleric happened to go first. My point with dueling MoM (other than our friendly rivalry) on that particular issue wasn’t so much the build itself, but just to demonstrate that the strengths and potential abusiveness of the class should be played to the hilt to best gauge the abusiveness of a given character – in this case, giving other modifiers to those weapons rather than straight +1 enchancements. But . . . I like straight +1 enhancements. They're so tasty! :cloud9: :drool: :fight!: I'm still wondering about one thing. There's a reclusive druid, a defender of nature who lives in the deep woods. She occaisionally fends off orcish ravagers and tends to the area. She is affiliated to no order, in fact, she has no contact with civilization. Who does she give her money to? She follows no god and is a member of no order. She gives money to the EDRS (External Druidic Revenue Service), whose members come to her tree every now and then to collect her taxes. :P Actually, all druids are part of an order. At least, they are if you follow the loose background stuff in the PHB.
bitnine 12-06-04, 08:19 PM	Actually, all druids are part of an order. At least, they are if you follow the loose background stuff in the PHB.So you would say that a reclusive nature-follower cannot be a druid? Anyways, follow that selfsame stuff and you'll have clerics devoted to philosophies that need not be part of any order.She gives money to the EDRS (External Druidic Revenue Service), whose members come to her tree every now and then to collect her taxes.Heh, I wanted to have her required to stuff her coinage and pieces of magic items into a hollow tree stump, as mentioned above.
Dragonspirit 12-06-04, 09:03 PM	General Dorsey: You are describing the difference between piety and hierarchy. As has been proven by many religous and polical leaders throughout time, knowledge is not a good indicator of ability to perform. A true point there :) Though I'd probably phrase it that knowledge is not a requisite. CC: Then what's all the hyperbole about 4,000 daggers? Because we were arguing what could be carried directly on one's body, not just carried in general. No, a Dervish can move total distance up to her speed. If she runs out of movement (or is stopped) she runs out of attacks. But that wasn't what I was arguing. I was saying that the Dervish can essentially perform a full attack from a distance. I didn't say the two-stat rule alone made it unviable. I said the two-stat rule combined with your stat-generation rules did. One makes a one-stat Mystic Thurge impossible (it's just plain not allowed) while the other weakens the two-stat Mystic Theurge. Ok, I see what you're saying now, though I still think it would be viable. Using the array, you could put say the 16 in intelligence and the 15 in wisdom. Then, you put each ability point you gain per four levels into intelligence and buy a Periapt of Wisdom +4, and you are set on those stats all the way through 9th level spells by level 12 (at which point you'd have 19s in both stats). So what's wrong with being an exemplar of the faith, upholding the doctrine, et al (including some vows followed only by the priesthood)? Why does it have to be about money, with regard to every religion (especially the Good ones) in the setting? Perhaps my view of history is jaded, but it's always about the money. Money is power. You can't really do much, you can't promote much, without the cash flow. And I think most deities are going to see their servant as a rather necessary means toward that rather significant need. While you can require tithings from the shoe cobblers, that's not going to build the church. Especially where there are vast sums of wealth hiding in the bowels of the earth or under the raunchy belly of a dragon. :) We don't? Didn't the 3.0 DMG include brief overview on high-tech weapons? What about Spelljammer? Well, I suppose you CAN have spaceships or machine guns. Thematically though it would be a rough sale, and could disrupt the medieval fantasy theme. All you've demonstrated is that a charcter optimized to a single value is going to be good when measured solely by that value. The best way I've found to measure "brokenness" of a class is to run it in a few games. Fair enough, but dominance in one single value can sometimes be so great that it dwarfs other aspects. If I can't melee fight, but my arrows always hit and do like 1000 damage each, I'm not balanced because of that weakness in the hand to hand aspect or because I can't cast spells. IOW, for a character to be balanced, it doesn't mean it can't excel of course, but there is a level of excel that can be offset by deficiencies in other areas, and a point where it breaks the barrier. What that barrier is, is of course, relative to who's judging it. To me, the Dervish and those things on my ban/errata list cross that line but you might not agree, and I can respect that. It's like the line between art and pornography, I can't define the difference for you objectively but I can tell you what a given picture strikes me as. Bitnine: A druid that wanted to meet this requirement and maintain his aloofness could entrust that money, some items it acquired, etc to an order. Or, if it was important to be that isolated, could perhaps sacrifice some of it in some ritual to whatever divinity it is that imbues her with strength. MoM: I think it is rather important to note that the character that Dragonspirit is talking about hasn't yet had enough time to create anything, even though the "requisite" number of sessions have already passed. Which is just one of the side benefits of going to the continent of Urnst! However, this rule is needed cause I can't ALWAYS send you guys to Castle Maure can I? (or can I...) :) Same reason why we can't make stuff before we came in; we just now came into a wealth of money. See, we find this gigantic inheritance, and, BAM, we're suddenly in the campaign. That's not what I said. And actually, with the new rules when we start this next campaign, you'll be able to make up to 10% worth of your starting wealth into it since we're going to track spent experience (your effective level will still be whatever the floor was, even if you are technically below it because you spent some on items). But . . . I like straight +1 enhancements. They're so tasty! Tasty? They're bland! Throw in some flavor! (Unless you are indeed the barbarian, who likes his meat raw, his women hairy, and his axe with a straight +5 enhancement so he can power attack most efficiently!) :yuck:
masterofmayhem 12-06-04, 09:42 PM	Which is just one of the side benefits of going to the continent of Urnst! However, this rule is needed cause I can't ALWAYS send you guys to Castle Maure can I? (or can I...) :) Hypothetically speaking, yes, you can . . . Just as it can be said that, hypothetically, of course, you may find it difficult to breathe with my foot in your chest in place of your lungs. ;) That's not what I said. And actually, with the new rules when we start this next campaign, you'll be able to make up to 10% worth of your starting wealth into it since we're going to track spent experience (your effective level will still be whatever the floor was, even if you are technically below it because you spent some on items). Remember? That was what you said (and Mike agreed with you, I believe) when I asked why in the name off all the infinite layers of the Abyss would I wait until I came into the campaign to spend my money. To which you replied that I just recently came into a wealth of money. All this was when I wanted to bring in a character that had already made items (a cleric, remember?), and you didn't want me to. Tasty? They're bland! Throw in some flavor! (Unless you are indeed the barbarian, who likes his meat raw, his women hairy, and his axe with a straight +5 enhancement so he can power attack most efficiently!) :yuck: Nothing tastes better than that +5. +10 hardness. +50 HPs. +5 attack. +5 damage. It's so dependable. Fire resistant? Eat +5ness, evil-doer! Immune to criticals? Eat my +5 sword! Non-evil? Aha! +5 smackage! The only thing that is better is the keen enhancement. Mmmh . . . +5 keen adamantine sword. :drool:
Dragonspirit 12-06-04, 09:56 PM	Hypothetically speaking, yes, you can . . . Just as it can be said that, hypothetically, of course, you may find it difficult to breathe with my foot in your chest in place of your lungs. But Urnst is like the magic land of happiness, where elves hand out candy! But instead of happiness, it's misery. And instead of elves, it's bodaks. And replace candy, with, um... death. Or, if you prefer, an unrequested will save deficit. :D Remember? That was what you said (and Mike agreed with you, I believe) when I asked why in the name off all the infinite layers of the Abyss would I wait until I came into the campaign to spend my money. To which you replied that I just recently came into a wealth of money. All this was when I wanted to bring in a character that had already made items (a cleric, remember?), and you didn't want me to. You asked, IIRC, why that could be. Not that that was the universal declaration for all cases hereto and forthwith (it was always about balance), but that it was a good reason. In any event, it's fixed now so you can get a reasonable benefit off of item creation without essentially doubling up on starting gear. Nothing tastes better than that +5. +10 hardness. +50 HPs. +5 attack. +5 damage. It's so dependable. Fire resistant? Eat +5ness, evil-doer! Immune to criticals? Eat my +5 sword! Non-evil? Aha! +5 smackage! The only thing that is better is the keen enhancement. Mmmh . . . +5 keen adamantine sword. Keen is sweetness off of a Falchion. In fact, when I play a Barb I'm so doing that. When 1/4th of your attack rolls can critical, that's good times. :)
Commander of Chaos 12-06-04, 10:41 PM	In regard to the slot limit for players, I've never had a big problem with it. usually you only have your main weapons onyour body, and I don't use potions very often. But, in the rare instance when i am confronted with the problem of not having enough space, I figure out if it is feasable to carry the item in addition to the others on my own body, adn then fudge. Yeah, its kind of underhanded and deviou, but the standard rules have no mention of slots, so if I can make it work I make it work. ;)
Commander of Chaos 12-06-04, 10:52 PM	Also, as a player in this particular campaign, all these nerfs are extremely annoying. I just want to be able to create a character and have some fun playing it. With all the nerfs we've had throughout the campaign get tedious. First we were restricted with the items we could get( only minor) then we got him to change that, and he hit us with a 5 point drop in the buy, and some of the nerfs mentioned in the post. Finally, we are losing the characters we've built up for almost 1.5 years. The sorceress had died once, and the mission wree on now is to raise her. Its just really annoying. We had a list of about 30 things to accomplish. And we got this far on a plethera of nerfs. Im going crazy with this. But,its the only game in town. So i put up with it and smile. But, now someone else is oing to DM so I get to vent.
danielinthewolvesden 12-06-04, 11:10 PM	Yes, it did seem all those "house rules" really meant a "control phreak DM". :rolleyes: Sad, really.
bitnine 12-06-04, 11:30 PM	Also, as a player in this particular campaign, all these nerfs are extremely annoying.Hey! As long as the players were having a good time, you have no right to complain about - Oh. Right. Well, best of luck to you!
Crossover-Chronicler 12-06-04, 11:56 PM	Because we were arguing what could be carried directly on one's body, not just carried in general.In which case the answer is easily greater than 2. The simplest solution I see is to ask the player to account for the whereabouts of each weapon and stop him when it gets ridicuous. For an example, see the illustration on p.59 of Complete Warrior; since many of those will be thrown away in the course of combat, the idea isn't even that silly.But that wasn't what I was arguing. I was saying that the Dervish can essentially perform a full attack from a distance.No. The Dervish makes melee attacks against adjacent opponents; she just gets the chance to make more opponents adjacent - a kind of beefed up Spring Attack. What you said was:I don’t have the copy of CW here, but I am almost positive that you are allowed to do a dervish dance from far away. You get a move action, and then you get a full attack provided you move five feet between each attack. Thus, if you were 30ft away you could start the dance, move up the 30 feet to the target, hit, move 5ft, hit, move 5ft, hit… etc in a circle around said target.You specified 30ft. There's almost no way to get off all of the Dervish's attacks under those circumstances. By the time the Dervish gets enough enhanced move to make it worthwhile, there are more attacks to consider. You could get a few more off with a lower-level Dervish (who has fewer attacks to fire off) in Boots of Striding and Springing, I suppose. But even then you wouldn't have enough movemenlt left after the initial 30ft to completely circle the opponent and fire off every attack an optimized two-weapon Dervish would likely have. Let's not also forget that moving within/through an enemy's threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity, and that Tumbling reduces your speed. EDIT: Okay, I missed this part earlier...Fair enough, but dominance in one single value can sometimes be so great that it dwarfs other aspects.I have yet to see how the Dervish meets this criteria. As I said, if you're going to measure the optimized Dervish by damage output, then you need to measure it against other classes optimized for damage output. What about a Rogue/Invisible Blade with a weapon similar to what you gave the Dervish?If I can't melee fight, but my arrows always hit and do like 1000 damage each, I'm not balanced because of that weakness in the hand to hand aspect or because I can't cast spells.That's true. But we're not dealing with a 1000hp/arrow archer. We're dealing with a character who doesn't do much more damage/attack than most other melee types, and who can only exceed the normal number of attacks once per day.IOW, for a character to be balanced, it doesn't mean it can't excel of course, but there is a level of excel that can be offset by deficiencies in other areas,And by the limitations in applicability of that excellence.and a point where it breaks the barrier. What that barrier is, is of course, relative to who's judging it. To me, the Dervish and those things on my ban/errata list cross that line but you might not agree, and I can respect that. It's like the line between art and pornography, I can't define the difference for you objectively but I can tell you what a given picture strikes me as.But a reaction isn't the best thing to base policy on. There are several classes I'd thought looked unbalanced - Mystic Theurge, Elocater, and Archmage among them. But I didn't ban them; I allowed them to be played 'til I could see what's what. And in none of the above cases did they wreck my game. I didn't even have to nerf them, though the Elocater required that I make some strange rulings about Trip attacks, Running, etc. /EDITOk, I see what you're saying now, though I still think it would be viable. Using the array, you could put say the 16 in intelligence and the 15 in wisdom. Then, you put each ability point you gain per four levels into intelligence and buy a Periapt of Wisdom +4, and you are set on those stats all the way through 9th level spells by level 12 (at which point you'd have 19s in both stats).I'm through arguing this one. I still think you're wrong, and you've utterly failed to address the arguments that the Charisma-based Mystic Theurge balances itself, but I don't care enough about this one to continue the debate. It's your game; you do what you like. Matter of fact, you can consider that my stance on the Derbish as well. EDIT: And of course you're ignoring the fact that the Charisma-based Divine casters have minimum Wisdom requirements anyway.Perhaps my view of history is jaded, but it's always about the money. Money is power. You can't really do much, you can't promote much, without the cash flow. And I think most deities are going to see their servant as a rather necessary means toward that rather significant need. While you can require tithings from the shoe cobblers, that's not going to build the church. Especially where there are vast sums of wealth hiding in the bowels of the earth or under the raunchy belly of a dragon."Historically" speaking, those priests who tithed to churches were not those who summoned columns of flame from the heavens. This isn't about history. You might be able to make the case that the power of any given historically accurate religious institution originates in money, but that's because the majority of history is a little shy on storms of vengeance, gates, and implosions - divine intervention is a little less common (or ar least less noticeable) in the real world. Besides, who needs money to build a church when you have wall of stone and stone shape? Do it yourself! :D
Kiirnodel 12-07-04, 01:00 AM	1. Characters get ½ hit points minimum per hit dice after 1st level, rounded up. Yeah, I really don't like underpowered PC's. They're supposed to be heroic, not some peasant! 2. Monsters (generally) will get 75% of hit points per hit dice.Hmmmm. That kind of hurts the first rule of giving PCs more hp... why not just advance the monsters? 3. No more than 1 prestige class and 3 different classes total per character (including any PrC). I just make a roleplaying requirement for all classes...if someone took ten years of wizard school, went to train in a fighters academy and then joined a thieves guild? Great he deserves to have all of those...but he can't just decide. Hey. I want a level in this. 4. All items are slotted (four pouch slots, two weapon slots, two back slots, standard slots). A weapon slot may be sacrificed for two pouch slots. Weapons requiring two hands to wield take a back slot. Some traditionally “unslotted” items that provide a continuous affect (like a Luck Stone) would require a pouch slot. ...I use the standard system...whatever flies your airship. Establishes a consistent system for possessions. 5. Array for attributes (16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 9) OR 28 point buy - Player’s choice. This point buy system eliminates the randomness of rolls in character creation while providing an incentive against min-maxing of stats I like stat buy and hate it. It's not random enough but I'm more of a 32 point buy..my PCs roll high...even when I watch and they use my dice. I DO love high powered PCs even though I'm a DM. 6. New characters come in a level below the lowest level character. Enforces the cost of death to make surviving matter. Prevents new characters from coming in more powerful than veteran ones due to the fact they are usually more optimized. I penalize death as well. I take the total EXP of the lowest member and drop it by 50 XP per level of that character...and the person who died starts at that. I don't use this rule if you die before third level. Good idea :D 7. Improved Initiative is banned. Individually isn’t too powerful, but when used widely by a group becomes degenerate. For balance reasons, monsters/NPCs with said feat will receive another feat, ability, or hit points in its place. I usualy give monsters Improved Init, and they usually more feats than a PC...so...;) I really think Improved Initiative is overrated. 8. Classes may be chosen from Core, Complete Warrior, and Unearthed Arcana. Limits characters more thematically toward campaign. Other material might be used after being reviewed by the DM for balance. I allow anything. I always have the player affirm every level up action with me down to the skill point selection! 9. Mystic Theurge’s two spellcasting classes must key off different attributes. Eliminates the loophole toward bypassing this PrC’s inherent disadvantage. Um...I think the mystic theurge is underpowered...even with that...kind of. 10. Dervish and Frenzied Berserker are banned. Overpowered PrCs eliminated for balance. I don't allow the Hulking Hurler. Frenzied Berserker??? Bah, he'll end up killing the party when the lich uses greater invisibility. 11. Permanency is banned. Reduces the “free effect” info (DM being required to remind or remember to give information that a player has not asked for) that many permanent effects grant, in addition to balance. Eh...most of the permanent stuff isn't powerful..so I say cool! Go head and detect magic all you want. You spent the XP! 12. Ioun Stones are half cost. They are slotted to the head slot (only one may be in use at a time). Whatever flies your airship! Ioun stones normally cost twice due to being “unslotted”. Otherwise, this is to remain consistent with the slot system of these rules. 13. Items may not be created or purchased with “dual qualities” (ex- Amulet of Natural Armor and Health). Prevents bypassing of slot restrictions. Yeah, actually you should run a party into the epic levels...they ran out of items so one guy had a Belt of +6 Str, Dex, Con and +5 Natural armor called the Belt of Epic Physical Prowess. He needed it to live :P 14. No evil alignment is allowed. Characters missions will largely be heroic, evil characters are non conducive toward that environment. I do this too. When I allow players to be evil...no doesn't work. 15. New characters come in no lower than two levels below the highest character. Keeps characters within a reasonable level range of each other.I use the same rule mentioned earlier 16. Detection spells are not x-rays. To function the target must be in line of sight. As with permanency, prevents “free effect” knowledge. Balance issues to prevent what would otherwise be low level “scrying” or “trapfinding” like affects.Ok...whatever flies your airship. 17. Dimension Door is now a 3rd level spell. Allows short distance magic movement more readily to offset the effects of banning teleport type spells (see next). Everyone got an item of dimension door after I had so many things with greater teleport as a spell or spell-like and this would only lower the price. 18. Teleport, Wind Walk, Overland Flight, Phantom Steeds and Greater Teleport are banned (as are spells and items of this nature). Overland travel is an important aspect of the game often bypassed or minimized by these spells. Rather than a quick spell, the idea of mounts and overland travel will have more meaning and are a greater potential for story arcs and development.I had the god of Ultimate Evil take control of the astral plane....it was fun for a while. I mean once you get to that level I reward them with mass teleports or use of the teleportation circles of the wizards guild for a fee. I haven't banned any of them. 19. Specific items within the Dungeon Masters guide may be bought with additional, but not less, “standard” enhancements (a Celestial Armor +4 for example). Improving standard items by normal means is reasonable. Yeah, you know I've seen some really powerful items, I mean gawking and drooling...and still the PC's have trouble. I can post a few if you like, but I've seen a +5 Frostbrand :) 20. 90% of starting wealth must be used on starting gear. Prevents a means for bypassing normal starting wealth restrictions by using item creation feats. Yeah, sounds ok. 21. Identify uses no spell components. Identifying equipment is too fundamental to have a prohibitive cost. Identify isn't too useful, though I must agree...wow...its pretty expensive for low levels...but they jsut expiriment with cool looking items. 22. Detection spells and spell craft checks do not radiate schools of magic. Again, prevents “free effect” (in this case mass identify) via detect magic.Right...I um..allow it. 23. Successful knowledge checks will reveal name, size, type, hit dice, initiative, speed, AC, and Base Attack of a creature. Beating the check by five, and each successive five, will reveal one special quality (determined randomly). Knowledge use has a more specific, less arbitrary means of information gathering now. All my players have this memorized anyway :D No really this sounds like Final Fantasy now..which I LOVE...I LOVE Final Fastasy...but some things you leave to the video games. 24. Non-standard items may not be made or purchased. Prevents overpowered items from entering the game. Right, I usually mordenkainen's disjunction stuff like that...booya! :D 25. Races will be standard, though the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana may be used freely. Standard races are not only more balanced, but more accurately reflect the campaign world. Yeah, but PC's aren't meant to be the norm, bloodlines are cool. 26. No “Exalted” feats, or feats specific to other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms ‘region’ feats). Same as above, except for feats. Um, a few are fitting...I actually only have banned Vow of Poverty. 27. Level all characters have achieved (simultaneously, and not through deaths) will be the floor level at which characters at a minimum will come in. This allows a collective reward, and also prevents downward spiral effects with experience. Yeah.... 28. Traps overcome without being unintentionally set off will be treated at their DC for experience purposes. Those triggered but overcome a DC lower. Players are more thoroughly rewarded for successfully overcoming traps, rather than just surviving them. Cool! 29. Experience used for either item creation or being raised will be tracked and factored for purposes of bringing in new characters (other players new characters are not weakened for such things if avoidable). Prevents other characters for being “punished” for others using item creation, being raised, etc in this experience system. Too..complicated... 30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders. I've never had a problem here. 31. Other skills (such as tumble) may not substitute for Perform skills for purposes of revenue earning. The primary effect of perform should not be easily emulated by otherwise more useful skills. Righto, so Perform acrobatics is a new skill and stuff? 32. Power attack’s multiplier is 1.5 instead of 2 when using a weapon two-handed. Balance. Extra damage for using a weapon two-handed when attacking is reasonable, but double damage is excessive. Yeah, but they TAKE much more damage due to an excessively lower AC. 33. Each spell caster must have one rank in their respective knowledge per spell level they wish to cast (Ex- A wizard must have six ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to cast a sixth level spell). Knowledge is an indicator of development, and should be so reflected. It is illogical that a high level cleric would have no knowledge of religion.Why? Some clerics don't focus on the teachings of religion and jsut their own...practices..they have no clue what an Olidimarra is just as long as Erythnul is happy. 34. Ring of sustenance, Sustaining Spoon, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and items of that nature are banned. Items are too universal and bypass basic aspects of the game (food).They seem powerful and then you realize that you forget to make them eat rations in the first place :D 35. Cohorts and NPCs take a ½ share of experience. Will discourage abuse of NPCs and Cohorts while not making them unviable. I think the rules are ok. 36. Spiked Chain is banned. Overpowered item eliminated for balance. Dont use many humanoid opponents. 37. Searching must be asked for (no auto checks), and is limited in potential (Max DCs of Character Lvl + 10) if not specific. Searching can encompass many things, and should be specified by the player. What’s more, “free effects”(like an elf’s auto check for secret doors) are disallowed (no automatic checks).Elf hater??? WHAT??? Just kidding, I think these rules they have are pretty good. 38. New characters may not use items to meet prerequisites for gaining feats. (They may, of course, use them to maintain requirements). Prevents new characters from min maxing advantages that realistically could not be achieved by older characters (“I found these gloves of dexterity +6 when I was level four!”). Whenever a character loses a prerequisite...I make them lose the feat. 39. Metamagic Rods are banned. Overpowered items eliminated for balance. The Wizard that was in my epic party was awesome at horde killing but the melee combatants did more damage to bosses. He used those and stil ldidn't keep up with damage (except the delayed blast fireball time stop trick) 40. Targetting an “area” spell (like fireball) requires a ranged attack roll against AC 10. Each number short randomly moves the target 5ft in one direction. A ‘1’ will result in the spell going off 1d4 x 5 feet in a random direction. A spell will always target at least one square in front of the caster. Logically a spell would not always “explode” precisely, given the chaos of combat. Chaos of combat...sounds fun...but those spells don't need a nerf. Hey! Great ideas and whatever flies your airship :D
Crossover-Chronicler 12-11-04, 01:21 PM	hmm... guess if I wanted any response I should've posted again instead of editing the previous post. Anyway, I've added some stuff I missed or failed to mention earlier. Sorry for the inconvenience.
masterofmayhem 12-11-04, 01:31 PM	I have yet to see how the Dervish meets this criteria. As I said, if you're going to measure the optimized Dervish by damage output, then you need to measure it against other classes optimized for damage output. What about a Rogue/Invisible Blade with a weapon similar to what you gave the Dervish? Ask Dragonspirit what kind of damage his invisible blade does. He makes the rest of us look inferior by comparison. And he’s certainly more powerful than our druid. :rolleyes: ;)
Dragonspirit 12-12-04, 10:03 PM	MoM: Ask Dragonspirit what kind of damage his invisible blade does. He makes the rest of us look inferior by comparison. And he’s certainly more powerful than our druid. Hey.. IIRC when I decided to play the IB I was told "why not play Master Thrower??". :D And the raw damage is based upon three classes, lives or dies off of sneak attack, very specifically built (and near suicidal in the tradeoff off in offense for utility, a will save or defense). He's died once, and had two other near death experiences already. Crossover-Chronicler: In which case the answer is easily greater than 2. The simplest solution I see is to ask the player to account for the whereabouts of each weapon and stop him when it gets ridicuous. But see, that's just the aspect I'd rather get past. I'd like the system to be set so my attention can be better spent on more useful things rather than nitpicking with my players. Also, it eliminates any arbitary rulings based upon how I'm thinking at the time, what another DM ruled, scientific principles of physics (trust me, it WOULD happen - at leat with my group) :) You specified 30ft. There's almost no way to get off all of the Dervish's attacks under those circumstances. By the time the Dervish gets enough enhanced move to make it worthwhile, there are more attacks to consider. You could get a few more off with a lower-level Dervish (who has fewer attacks to fire off) in Boots of Striding and Springing, I suppose. But even then you wouldn't have enough movemenlt left after the initial 30ft to completely circle the opponent and fire off every attack an optimized two-weapon Dervish would likely have. Let's not also forget that moving within/through an enemy's threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity, and that Tumbling reduces your speed. I think we are focusing more on that specified distance than what I really meant (incidentally, with the right build you could greatly enhance your movement to achieve all attacks). My point being that you could launch a doubled melee full attack from a distance. On it's own, either that option or the thousand cuts might not be enough to make it too much for me, but together it's too strong for one class IMO. What's more, it's only one class, even if I'm totally wrong. With all the books and material we have, there's still many other class options. What about a Rogue/Invisible Blade with a weapon similar to what you gave the Dervish? It's a great combination. However, the thing is that it's damage is based almost entirely off the ability to sneak attack, and if the fight is from a distance it's going to have to throw (most likely) masterwork daggers at best. So it's offensive capabilities are much more limited, even if it's damage is comparable in the right circumstances. We're dealing with a character who doesn't do much more damage/attack than most other melee types, and who can only exceed the normal number of attacks once per day. It's overall damage is either only comparable under more preferable circumstances (like a Rogue, IB, alternative fighter), or with a much longer fight of at least two or three rounds (power attacking two handed melee types), and by the time you are playing a Dervish - fights often don't last that long without player casualties. But a reaction isn't the best thing to base policy on. There are several classes I'd thought looked unbalanced - Mystic Theurge, Elocater, and Archmage among them. But I didn't ban them; I allowed them to be played 'til I could see what's what. And in none of the above cases did they wreck my game. I didn't even have to nerf them, though the Elocater required that I make some strange rulings about Trip attacks, Running, etc. I think we have a very different philosophy. The way I see it, if a class looks like it is going to wreck the game, I'm not going to try it first. Because if your wrong, you've "won" one class, but if you lost, your campaign sessions have been, as mentioned, wrecked. If we were limited to only a few classes, I'd be more hesitant. But with all the material out there, you could ban half of it from your game and still have TONS of options. As an aside - have you found any classes or things from your campaign that you houserule or ban? You might be able to make the case that the power of any given historically accurate religious institution originates in money, but that's because the majority of history is a little shy on storms of vengeance, gates, and implosions - divine intervention is a little less common (or ar least less noticeable) in the real world. Besides, who needs money to build a church when you have wall of stone and stone shape? Do it yourself! Well, I still think money would be a force (sadly, I think it's too much a part of our human natures), but being able to cast spells and such would certainly modify the circumstances (or at least, put the construction industry out of work) :)
mastroyo 12-12-04, 11:27 PM	Reading those neverending posts I could only think this: HOW CAN YOU WRITE SUCH LONG REPLYS? HASN'T YOUR WEB BROWSER EVER STOPPED WHEN YOU WHERE FINISHING? AND IF IT DID, ARE YOU THE KIND OF PEOPLE THAT WRITE IT AGAIN? ARE YOU MASOCHISTS THAT LIKE TO BE PUNISHED... :D? OR AM I THE ONLY ASSH.OLE WITH INTERNET EXPLORER... :P Sorry for interupting, but it's all i could think... PS: I disagree with 99% of those House Rules. House Rules are to stay in the House, if you know what I mean, and they need to be aproved by your players (in my opinion), so if the players agree, and you like the rule, why ask?...
Dragonspirit 12-12-04, 11:52 PM	Mastroyo: Heh. I usually type out my longer responses in Microsoft Word. I hate nothing more than losing a big long post because you click 'post', and it doesn't connect to the page, and you backspace and the post is gone. :hoppingma
Crossover-Chronicler 12-22-04, 03:17 PM	Hey.. IIRC when I decided to play the IB I was told "why not play Master Thrower??".The fact that you've managed to prove them wrong in no way diminishes the fact that you proved them wrong.I think we are focusing more on that specified distance than what I really meant (incidentally, with the right build you could greatly enhance your movement to achieve all attacks). My point being that you could launch a doubled melee full attack from a distance. On it's own, either that option or the thousand cuts might not be enough to make it too much for me, but together it's too strong for one class IMO. What's more, it's only one class, even if I'm totally wrong. With all the books and material we have, there's still many other class options.But no others that do what the Dervish does. And I'm not talking about the mechanics of damage output; I'm talking (er... typing) about the concept of the dance itself. You can try something similar with the Duelist, I suppose, but it's a lot harder to pull off and easily comes off weaker in the end (since any attempt to create a two-weapon whirlwind of death negates some of the Duelist's best abilities).It's a great combination. However, the thing is that it's damage is based almost entirely off the ability to sneak attack, and if the fight is from a distance it's going to have to throw (most likely) masterwork daggers at best. So it's offensive capabilities are much more limited, even if it's damage is comparable in the right circumstances.And the Dervish is limited by its ability to perform a full attack and to keep moving. I don't see how you can constantly disregard the limits of one class while citing limiting factors as the "balance" that makes another class valid.It's overall damage is either only comparable under more preferable circumstances (like a Rogue, IB, alternative fighter), or with a much longer fight of at least two or three rounds (power attacking two handed melee types), and by the time you are playing a Dervish - fights often don't last that long without player casualties.In my experience, fights get longer as level increases. Besides which, you've not really addressed the issue of multiple combats within a day.I think we have a very different philosophy. The way I see it, if a class looks like it is going to wreck the game, I'm not going to try it first. Because if your wrong, you've "won" one class, but if you lost, your campaign sessions have been, as mentioned, wrecked. If we were limited to only a few classes, I'd be more hesitant. But with all the material out there, you could ban half of it from your game and still have TONS of options.I disagree. The way I see it, banning options based on nothing but a glance and some theoretical buildcraft is a good way to ensure that any player interested in the class has less fun - not only because the class is banned, but also because there's that seed of resentment of being denied any opportunity to prove otherwise outside some "battle of spreadsheets" that proves little to nothing. I know I've resented it when DMs I've played under banned barious options out of hand based on everything from "It's too powerful" to "It's just plain dumb" to "I like this other option better, so I'm banning various other alternatived to ensure that my pet character type will get more attention." I never liked it, and when I did it (I've been DMing since elementary school, and was quit immature when I started) I know that kind of behavior sparked an adversarial relationship with some players that's endured in some cases to this day (and worse, caused other DMs-in-training to take their cues from that behavior). Better a slightly overpowered character (who I can neutralize, nerf or destroy as necessary) than a continued atmosphere of resentment.As an aside - have you found any classes or things from your campaign that you houserule or ban?I don't keep lists - often it depends on the campaign. In a recent (rather un-genuine) "Asian" campaign I banned Bards, Clerics, Druids, and Wizards; I replaced them with Favored Soul, Hexblade, Samurai, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman, Warlock, Warmage and Wu Jen (had Complete Adventurer been out I probably would've added Ninja to that list) and varous Unearthed Arcana variants, and I required that all the characters be a on the same side (the campaign setting being devided by civil war) regardless of their alignment. But that was to enforce some flavor and make sure the PCs were on the same side so that the weaker players didn't get steamrolled. The next thing I did was break that rule and allow a less experienced player to play a Wizard rather than force him to learn the differences between Wizard and Wu Jen. In my Ravenloft games I house-rule rampantly to make up for the stuff the Ravenloft setting takes away. I once redesigned the Vistani as a psionic race (and half-vistani as result) and altered some Favored Classes to alternative base classes to better reflect particular Domains (such as from Fighter to Swashbuckler in more advanced areas). Check the link in my sig for more details on those variants. In non-D&D games I've barred character options based on the campaign I was running - in Vampire, there are no Sabbat in my Camarilla games, no Cammies in my Sabbat games, though Anarchs tend to pop up everywhere; "independent" bloodlines are rarely played without a decent backstory, and since there are only 7 Salubri I tend to reserve them for NPCs (Vampire is the White Wolf game in which characters most often get restricted, with Werewolf running a close second). Also, I tend to disallow child characters after some unfortunate events regarding one of my players. In my GURPS games, options are based on what exists in the world (no Mages in Cyberpunk, no Supers in a Horror campaign, but Psionics are justifiable almost anywhere with a good backstory). I occasionally try out other systems, in which case I try to stick to basics until we all know what we're doing. Such as Shadowrun or Palladium games. In other campaigns I have limited or house-ruled particular character options, but I generally try to be fair, and my ban list is generally based as much on "policy" as personal likes and dislikes (nothing from a book I don't have; WotC sources only; stick to 3.5 versions; if it's not 3.5 material, I'll review the material and then say no.)Well, I still think money would be a force (sadly, I think it's too much a part of our human natures), but being able to cast spells and such would certainly modify the circumstances (or at least, put the construction industry out of work)This isn't a question of human nature. It's a question of divine nature. The question is why a Paladin would lose his god's favor for failing to tithe, or why a Druid would lose the blessing of nature, not the social consequences of failing to pay one's taxes. Especially since these characters are not necessarily members of any organization any more than a Rogue is necessarily a part of a "thieves' guild," or a Wizard has to pay back tuition and/or alumni donations to a "school of magic."
General_Ridley 12-22-04, 03:38 PM	"30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders." Would a Monk with the vow of poverety have to tithe in addition to his, uhh, chosen poverty? that really hurts them where they chose to be.
masterofmayhem 12-22-04, 04:01 PM	"30. Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins must tithe (including their starting cash unless 1st level) in a reasonably timely manner to retain spells and abilities. These classes of higher nobility or purpose must reflect this by tithing to advance their orders." Would a Monk with the vow of poverety have to tithe in addition to his, uhh, chosen poverty? that really hurts them where they chose to be. :heehee Oh, come on. He bans Overland Flight and Improved Initiative and you think he's going to allow Vow of Poverty??? :rofl: :rofl: I couldn't stop laughing when I was reading that; it's so ridiculously stupid.
spasheridan 12-22-04, 06:46 PM	I don't think the house rules are that oppressive. Let's examine the general layout of them. 1) Limits on multi-class and PrCs. Since all PrCs are optional any limits are fine, because by default there are NONE. And honestly, if you NEED to make a 4 base class PC maybe the DM and you can work out a custum class that fits the bill. 2) Limits on feats and spells and domains. This is all very campaign dependant. Some games the journey is the adventure, sometimes the journey is just filler between action. Apparently on this world no one has figured out a way to supercharge their turning attempts, maybe because undead are stronger, are new, or are less common. 3) Limits on magic items. Again, anything made that isn't already statted out in the DMG is optional. Allowing anything like this is optional, so restricitng it (and letting the PCs what is possible in advance) is a nice way to run things. 4) Stats, HP, new PCs. All games require some choices on how this is done. The specific decision is irrelivent as long as it is made ahead of time and is fair to everyone. I don't see any major nerfs in his choices, nor do I see any buffs. I'm sure if the players look at this list of house rules (most of which are just definitions of which optional rules will be used from WOTC books) and one of them says "But I was planning on playing a super healing pelor cleric" you guys can work something out. I would have fun playing in this game.
Crossover-Chronicler 12-23-04, 01:39 AM	But see, that's just the aspect I'd rather get past. I'd like the system to be set so my attention can be better spent on more useful things rather than nitpicking with my players. Also, it eliminates any arbitary rulings based upon how I'm thinking at the time, what another DM ruled, scientific principles of physics (trust me, it WOULD happen - at leat with my group)It isn't that difficult. And I don't see the value of eliminating arbitrary rulings by making an arbitrary ruling based on what you were thinking when you came up with the rule, and completely ignoring things like physics. I don't see why what other DMs ruled would affect a decision unless you just really respected said DM's opinion. Generally when I look at my PCs' equipment lists, it takes me about two minutes to figure out where all the items are kept (and to ensure the player marks said locations on the sheet - including where he keeps items that aren't carried). And that includes whether or not the ioun stones are currently active. And when I do have problems it rarely seems to be an issue of where all the weapons are stored (I find accessibility of potions, wands, and scrolls to be the tougher calls). I don't think the house rules are that oppressive. Let's examine the general layout of them. snip I don't see any major nerfs in his choices, nor do I see any buffs.You don't? Examine the following: The additional slotting rules. That's nerfs items in general, and several character strategies as a result (such as the thrown-weapon expert, who needs lots of accessible ammo, or any warrior who actually plans on penetrating damage reduction rather than trying to exceed it against every monster he fights). The necessary attack roll for area spells. That nerfs spellcasters, especially battle-mages. Removal of several non-Domain spells (like Teleport) qualifies, I think, as another "nerf" for spellcasters. Mandatory tithes for Clerics, Druids, Monks and Paladins, and Rangers. That reduces the equipment for these characters, which would qualify as a "nerf." In fact, I think a pattern here. The least-nerfed characters on this list seem to be rogue-types. Bards and Rogues are the classes that take the least number of hits, since most of the altered/removed spells aren't on the Bard list, and since "reflexive searches" apply only to Elves and secret doors, it doesn't really reflect on the Rogue's trapfinding ability. Rogues only receive nerfs that everyone else must deal with equally and is genetrally less hurt by them than the warrior (since a Rogue can be less item-dependent). Further weapon-slotting is less painful to the rogue since most creatures with damage reduction are subject to critical hits (allowing the rogue to exceed the opponent's DR with greater ease if he's smart enough to take Improved Feint, or at least to flank). A rogue needs an adamantine weapon to deal with what's left.
Shinryouga 12-23-04, 03:18 AM	I will admit that I read the first and the fifth page of this thread, so I am ignorant of what was said in 2 through 4. As such, my only comments are as follows: In future, define which rules are "house rules" (Rules you use as a DM ALL the time.) and which are "campaign flavor rules" (Rules you use on a campaign specific basis to emphasize certain elements of plot, culture, world, etc.) It is entirely because I am unsure of which type of rules some of these are that I can not accurately give you any constructive criticism on them. This would really help to clarify what choices are made due to issues with game mechanic, and what are for your plans regarding the campaign's plot. Shinryouga