Post/Author/DateTime	Post
digoraccoon 01-29-06, 09:15 PM	Olivia: "How much exp do you spend to make that Ring of Communication?" Efin: "About 80 exp." Nagumo: "Can I pay you in kobolds?" This was a funny little situation that came up when the party wizard was calculating the Experience costs for making a few magic items. The party is always good to pay him for the service and so far his magic item creation feats have not been abused, but the party knows it costs him a good bit of experience points every time he makes an item. Well the party rogue came up with this strange idea. What if the party went out to hunt & capture some fairly dangerous creatures and released them at the wizard for the wizard to fight solo. Would only the wizard gain the experience points and if so would the experience be legal to use for his item creation feats so he wouldn't fall so behind the other players in total experience points? At first I laughed because it sounded absurd, yet I didn't see why it WOULDN'T work. Essentially the wizard is going solo to fight off a creature or two that poses a threat to him so he'd earn all the experience for overcoming the encounter. Then it got really interesting because the players and I came up with this idea that if it worked this way there could be a whole industry in "Monster Wrangling" where wizards bought monsters from merchants to slay for the experience points to use in their item creation feats so they wouldn't fall behind. The cleric then went even father saying she would see the slaying of the monster sorta like a sacrifice to get the experience necessary for the item creation so we have an interesting explination right here for sacrifices in important spells. Ha! It was an interesting conversation. :) The players didn't go through with it because they admit it's a bit silly still, but they asked me to post it here because they want to know what other DMs thought about the idea and at the very least to entertain all the other hardworking DMs out there. I think if the players went through and did wrangle up some monsters I'd make an adventure out of it and let them go for it.
Grier 01-29-06, 09:20 PM	The main problem with that, at least to me, is that the characters wouldn't have any idea that killing monsters makes them stronger. Do you, after making something, go out and kill a mouse to regain the XP you spent making it? No. Other than that, it is an intetresting concept.
Rathis 01-29-06, 09:33 PM	If the creature poses a threat, no one in their right mind would want to fight it solo. They could die. Having the other PC's there as "backup" means that they're contributing to the fight and makes the encounter trivial and worth no xp most likely.
RK)13 01-29-06, 09:34 PM	I can see an interesting houserule in this though... Part of magic item creation takles the sacrifice of live creatures who's XP total equals the amount of XP needed to create the item. Could bring about all new quests... "bring 'em back alive" type things.
Elemental_Elf 01-29-06, 10:07 PM	I think it would work, but the other party members should eitehr vow not to intervene or stand outside the room.
Kadasbrass 01-29-06, 10:15 PM	You do know what more then one person can make an item. In theory you could have a person working with the Wizard who's sole role was to give up XP (IE someone else in the group can give up their own xp for the item). But I agree, if it isn't challenging: no xp. And how would the players get the kobolds to fight the wizard? The first two may try, but once magic is involved with a superior mage and allies (rest of group) the kobolds would most likely flee for their lives (don't got to out run the players, just the another kobold).
ranger danger 01-29-06, 10:18 PM	i usually allow characters to sacrifice monsters (or people) whos xp total would equal or excede required exp, the thing is they usually dont know how much exp a monster gives, so they usually "over pay" quite a bit and it is funny
RK)13 01-29-06, 10:21 PM	i usually allow characters to sacrifice monsters (or people) whos xp total would equal or excede required exp, the thing is they usually dont know how much exp a monster gives, so they usually "over pay" quite a bit and it is funny Well, you know, you've got to cover your bases. "I need to make a wand of cure light wounds..... get me a Balor!"
celtredleg 01-29-06, 10:41 PM	Would not the act of captureing the kobolds in the first place get ther rest of the party XP?? Unless of course you just bought them at a local monster slave market. As for sacrificing monsters to make items, well that sounds like a classic sort of ritual, and also an evil one. To avoid silly work around solutions for things like this, I have dropped the XP cost for magic items. Besides, it seems to me that makeing items should make a wizard know MORE about magic, not make him forget part of it.
VirgilCaine 01-29-06, 10:59 PM	To avoid silly work around solutions for things like this, I have dropped the XP cost for magic items. Besides, it seems to me that makeing items should make a wizard know MORE about magic, not make him forget part of it. I don't remember skill or attack penalties for using XP on items...
illiterate 01-29-06, 11:05 PM	Seems to me that requiring ritual sacrifice for the creation of magical items would make it harder for someone to play a Good spellcaster. Ritual sacrifice of intelligent beings (even Evil ones) is an act of evil.
BadCatMan 01-29-06, 11:16 PM	You could just suck the life-force (aka XP) from the Kobolds and then send the dazed little critters on their way without killing them off. And then someone could start farming them, milking them for XP every now and then. Train them up until they're good and smart, then drain them back down again. This must be the Gnome's dirty little secret in Eberron. :D
Kadasbrass 01-29-06, 11:23 PM	Ya, dirty Gnomes. Need to use Flesh to Stone on them all, and then use Stone Shape to make them all into brinks. Then sell them to a mason's guild. :angelhide
celtredleg 01-29-06, 11:23 PM	I don't remember skill or attack penalties for using XP on items... Depends on what you consider XP to be. If you consider them to be an accumulation of experiences that you learn from, then if you have less than you started with, you have indeed lost knowledge. Because we have to model this with abrupt steps called levels, you cannot model the small losses very well. But it doesnt mean they are not there. It you consider XP to be a measure of some form of lifeforce, then the XP loss make more sense. However, then you are killing things so that you can gain more lifeforce, which seems to be evil. I dont like the implications of either of these choices, so its just easier to dump the XP loss.
kinjojones 01-29-06, 11:55 PM	^ You get the XP for overcoming challenges. It's just that killing monsters is the most common type of challenge in DnD
FriendoftheDork 01-30-06, 01:22 AM	^ You get the XP for overcoming challenges. It's just that killing monsters is the most common type of challenge in DnD Yes- But it this case there is no real challenge as there is no real goal except for a metagame one. If the wizard had to defeat these monsters because otherwise some evil noble would kill some innocent people etc., then I would award full xp. But making a mock fight, just dangerous enough for there to be a theoretical threat against the wizard? No. You don't get xp to start fights you don't need to. Since the wizard can just say "no I don't want to fight them" to overcome them, the xp amoung given is the same. Zero.
BW0222 01-30-06, 01:32 AM	It's a perfectly valid tactic. However, XP for defeating monsters is based on the risk to your PC. A 10th-level wizard killing a bunch of unarmed kobolds would be no challenge and no risk to the wizard. Total XP is 0. The party likely took more of a risk capturing the kobolds from a tribe. You also have alignment issues. Going out, capturing creatures, and then keeping them alive for the sole purpose of murdering them later is definitely an evil act. If you have to kill them on the spot to prevent them from raiding farms, fine. If you are capturing them to put them on trial, fine.
Vaelan 01-30-06, 02:50 AM	You don't get xp to start fights you don't need to. If it is a challenge, you get XP for overcoming it. I don't care if you further qualify this. I doubt anyone here cares if you further qualify this. It is completely irrelevant.
Derren S. 01-30-06, 04:38 AM	What you seek are the sacrificing rules from teh Book of Vile Darkness. With them you can pay with sacrifices for creating (evil) magical items.
YRM 01-30-06, 08:51 AM	The problem is, as some have touched on, that capturing the Kobolds requires defeating the Kobolds. It would be harder for the Rogue to capture and return to the Wizard with live Kobolds than it would be for the Wizard to fireball a room full. So the Rogue would get more EXP than the Wizard for defeating a tougher challenge... or he should, if the DM does it correctly. Also, it's pretty evil to enslave any race of creature just for sport-fighting (which is what the Wizard would be doing). I know that Kobolds are generally evil little buggers, but, unlike other races, Kobolds are more defensive than offensive. They'll generally sit harmlessly in a cave until bothered. So no, this wouldn't work. Here's why Item Creation EXP is not a problem. Let's say that the Wizard finally donates enough EXP that he misses Leveling by 1 EXP and everyone else makes it by 500. It's quite possible, that in the next session, because the Wizard is lower level, the Wizard will gain 800 or 1,000 more EXP than everyone else because he was coming at the challenges from a lower level on the chart. A PC that starts out 2 levels lower than the party will catch up over time and be the same level as the party, even closing the XP gap completely... so a few EXP here and there for items will be quickly recovered.
DarknessEternal 01-30-06, 09:53 AM	The main problem with that, at least to me, is that the characters wouldn't have any idea that killing monsters makes them stronger. Do you, after making something, go out and kill a mouse to regain the XP you spent making it? Don't try to apply logic to item creation in D&D. Normally, when someone makes something, they don't lose experience (the sum of their experiences and knowledge); they gain it. Only in D&D can successfully creating a reality bending item make you stupider than you were before accomplishing such an unlikely task.
Illithid13 01-30-06, 11:12 AM	Since you can share EXP (or rather have someone other than the wizard pay it) just have the wiz take the leadership feat and have a barbarian cohort who's job it is to sacrifice his exp for the making of magic items. then the wizzy just has him recoupe the exp he lost between each item.
Chobemaster 01-30-06, 11:21 AM	Don't try to apply logic to item creation in D&D. Normally, when someone makes something, they don't lose experience (the sum of their experiences and knowledge); they gain it. Only in D&D can successfully creating a reality bending item make you stupider than you were before accomplishing such an unlikely task. Huh, I wasn't aware there were D&D players unfamiliar w/ Morgoth and Sauron.
WhiteRaven810 01-30-06, 11:53 AM	Personally I love it. Reward who ever came up with that idea extra experience points.
The Abominable Darkling 01-30-06, 12:35 PM	The only trouble with this plan is that it's based on metagame logic. People in D&D world would have no way of connecting killing things with item creation. They wouldn't even know their XP totals or how much XP making items costs them. From a strictly mechanical point of view, it would work fine; however, I would strongly discourage this because it would seriously damage the believability of the game world.
Woas 01-30-06, 12:40 PM	It is a cute idea I'll give you that. But like others have said, the entire situation is pure meta-gaming. Characters wouldn't know what "XP" are, or that they are being "spent" to make those magic items. On the other hand: As a DM, I would be open to allow the characters to 'hunt' magical beasts for the purpose of harvesting 'magical bits' from them which the crafting wizard could use to either reduce the total XP crafting cost, or perhaps negate it all together. And by hunting for magical beasts I don't mean getting up on your horses with the hounds running. Could very well be part of an adventure the characters are already on or even lead to other side quests like seeking out an isolated witch who would have the right things or some diplomacy asking a unicorn for a shaving of its horn...
FriendoftheDork 01-30-06, 01:44 PM	If it is a challenge, you get XP for overcoming it. I don't care if you further qualify this. I doubt anyone here cares if you further qualify this. It is completely irrelevant. What? In a CRPG like neverwinter nights I might agree with you, but some of us are actually roleplaying and not playing some hack'n slash feast where the sole purpose of adventuring is killing stuff to get xp and loot. There's a reason why there are DMs in the game, so that they can give ad-hoc xp awards and not be limited to a system of guidelines. In the end it's up to the DM to decide if something is a "challenge" or not. And really - capturing a creature and then kill it shouldn't net any more xp than killing it outright - otherwise you could just capture the same creature multiple times, release it, capture it again and do this until you level up. This is nothing but munchkin tactics, something you could read on a CRPG forum to exploit a game bug ("Cool I can get the xp award again and again!") But then again what makes P&P ultimately superior to CRPGs is exactly that you have a DM that can prevent bugs and loopholes like that.
YRM 01-30-06, 01:50 PM	Personally I love it. Reward who ever came up with that idea extra experience points. I hope you're being sarcastic and I just can't tell... The party goes out and tracks kobolds, makes a plan to capture a bunch of them alive, probably battling through traps to do it. For this actual challenge, no experience is awarded? Then, the Wizard makes an item, losing a tiny bit of EXP that he'll regain in spades if he ever falls a level behind. The party presents the wizard with a few Kobolds. The Wizard quickly kills them all, knowing full well the encounter is coming and the Kobolds are probably scared out of their minds, and the Wizard gets the EXP for the ALREADY DEFEATED KOBOLDS? They were defeated when they were captured... not when they became fish in a barrel. In short, it's an awful idea that should never work for any DM who stops to think about it for less than a minute. The value in the idea, and this original post, is that it's a great line... "Can I pay you in Kobolds?" That is a fantastic line... but after that, it stinks.
Sorbeth 01-30-06, 08:41 PM	Well you could always scout out ahead in a dungeon, find a room with sufficient kobolds in it to present a threat to the poor solo wizard, and then let the mage go in fist and shut the door on him/her. (Listening at the door to tell if the mage really truly needs help/ is done and about to fireball the party's tail is advisable)
YRM 01-30-06, 09:24 PM	Well you could always scout out ahead in a dungeon, find a room with sufficient kobolds in it to present a threat to the poor solo wizard, and then let the mage go in fist and shut the door on him/her. (Listening at the door to tell if the mage really truly needs help/ is done and about to fireball the party's tail is advisable) If you put the mage in an honestly dangerous and challenging situation, it's not really payment. If you put the mage in a safe or protected situation where there is no chance at all of death (and everyone knows it), then it's not worth experience. If the mage falls a level behind because of making items, he can gain as much as THOUSANDS more EXP from the same session as the higher level players. The mage catches and passes them in EXP. The current EXP system does not penalize item creation... it just staggers the leveling a bit.
Loren Pechtel 02-01-06, 01:14 AM	My thoughts: 1) The kobolds out of their natural environment are certainly going to be worth less XP. 2) XP is awarded for overcoming challenges. Unless they pose a reasonable risk to the wizard he won't gain anything from them. 3) I don't think the rest of the party has to stay out of it. It's just if they intervene the wizard has to share the XP. It's still a challenge even without a serious risk of death. 4) It's an evil act. 5) I do think that IC knowledge would say this would work. They wouldn't understand the exact nature of it but the association that you gain in power by winning battles would be known.
Ubernostrum 02-01-06, 01:38 AM	Allowing this is like allowing them to summon and release creatures so they can be killed.
cynical 02-01-06, 02:48 AM	Hmm even though the idea is laughable in practice, its still a great concept that can be expanded on. Now i have to create an artificer prestrige class that powers his item creation by sucking th life force from others. He would have to basically have a drain xp abillity that would only works on helpless opponants. This would allow hime to refill his craft xp pool once per level. He would need to drain the xp at a 500 to one ratio (needs large herds to draw from) This is a great BBEG.
Callista 02-01-06, 05:05 AM	The lost XP spent creating an item represents lost time, not lost skill. When you spend time creating an item rather than adventuring, you don't advance for a while; and it takes you longer to gain your next level. You don't actually lose any skills (i.e., you never lose a level from crafting items); you just take longer to gain skills. Rather than learning new things, you spend time applying what you had already mastered. It's like a college math student spending time writing a program that solves elementary algebra. He doesn't learn any of the calculus he's supposed to be studying; and it takes him longer to finish learning the calculus chapter he's on. But he's created something--the program--that will, in the future, allow him to learn more quickly and efficiently; his overall "power level" has not diminished. (And, of course, crafting XP is needed for game balance, at least if your wizard is doing a lot of crafting.)
IceFractal 02-01-06, 05:52 AM	Slightly OT, but I've got to say it: "People who craft items actually level faster because they get more XP for the encounters" is a myth. Sure, you do get more XP, but it doesn't make up for the amount you spend, except in rare cases. I've played item-crafters a number of times, and while sometimes being lower level nets you a lot of XP, other times it gets you just enough to level, by which time the other players are 1/2 a level higher and you're not even getting more XP. If you craft items judiciously, you'll only end up a small amount behind the rest, but over the course of a game you may not fall further behind but you won't catch up either unless you stop crafting items. Now that doesn't make item crafting a bad choice - you may be behind in levelling, but you'll be ahead in equipment. However, it isn't some easy gravy train, especially if you start crafting stuff for the whole party.
Pavitra 02-07-06, 02:16 AM	There may be a reasonable in-game interpretation of this. I am thinking of the Dragon Ball manga where Goku and Kiririn are training under the Turtle Master. Even if we disregard the actually life-threatening parts of their training, the approach seems to make sense. It is not necessary to actually threaten the character's life; it is sufficient to provide some sort of motivation, some threat that the character would find powerful enough to keep him on top form. For example, the Turtle Master used the threat of missed meals. Missing one or two meals won't kill you, so a player might not see much threat, but the character knows that it won't be pleasant. If you follow some sort of very strict and punitive training regimen, possibly involving kobolds, then you could, plausibly, choose to put yourself in battle for the purpose of developing in power and experience (to gain XP). Teacher: "Rise and shine, it's time for the morning battle." Disciple: "I hate these training fights!" T: "It's for your own good, you know." D: "... I guess. But does it really have to hurt so much? I'm still sore from yesterday." T: "How will you get stronger if I go easy on you?" D: "..." D: "All right, I'm coming." T: *pummel* D: "... ouch ..." T: "Remember, it's for your own good!"