Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shurdus 01-12-05, 09:55 PM	Hi all! It turned out to be a longer post then I intended and I apologise for that. In campaigns that I run my players always mess up horribly. They have a knack for making themselves horribly unpopular. They are haughty to everybody they meet. That is fine in a bar or something but they are even arrogant to important nobles, calling them names as soon as there's anything they dislike. My problem this. Last session they were captured by the drow and taken to the floating drow citadel - you have to surprise them somehow, right? :) They put up a fight with the drow when their ship was being 'jacked' (for lack of the proper term), they were being rude to the captain of the drow ship, they actually spat on her. hen they were taken to the drow-dungeons it was the same thing. They spat on the guards, called the elf that I had put there to get them out an idiot and refused to talk to him anymore, and when the matron mother stopped by they called her a ****. [Edit:Yes it is that offensive so don't try to get around the filters again. Thanks. TheCheat I must say it really amuses me to no end. :P It is truly funny at the moment they come up with this kind of stuff, but I find it hard to maintain a degree of realism. When they call the matron mother a **** I am inclined to say that she orders the guards to cut their tongues out. All of them. Expect no mercy from a drow. Then again, if I decide to do that my players will be really ****** OOC. This is my dilemma. I'm a way too nice guy. I want no fight's OOC so I let them get away with it, but by doing so I really breach the realism of my game. Help? How should I handle this? Have them slain next time? I already told them at the beginning of the campaign that I would let them die if they would do stupid stuff. That worked for a sdingle session, after that they went insane again. How would you handle this? And would it be ok if I was going to slay them all because they behave like morons? Any opinion is welcome. Thnx for your time.
Mr_Smiley 01-12-05, 10:11 PM	To start off I sugjest you have a permanent Silence cast on them. If they dispel it and continue to harass the drow, then I like the idea of cutting their tongue off. If they Regenerate their tongue and do it again... well... the drow would kill them at that point probably.
alecthemad 01-12-05, 10:15 PM	First thing, have a large force of drow guards come and seperate them into different cells. Have the matron visit the most troublesome one (she brings backup). She tried to question him. When he causes a problem she gouges out his eyes and takes his head from his shoulders. You can let him fight, but with no equipemnt and some prep spells on the part of the drow it should not be a problem. She animates the headless corpse and has it carry the head into the next most troublesome one. When they ask about new characters make them at least three levels lower so that it stings. And so on down the line until they realize two things: 1) You are willing to kill characters who get out of line with important NPC's. 2) You are not afraid to make certain that the character cannot be raised again. (Granted it is not RAW but I play it that animate dead destroys the soul of the being and that is why it is evil) but you could use destruction but you lose the impact of the zombie. If they make trouble out of character let them know that they were being jerks and making your NPC's look like fools. The NPC's will now react as is within their power either hiring persons to do the dirty work, or taking care of business themselves if they can. I have made a guess that characters do not generally die in your game. Or that they do not face the consequences of their actions. In the future you need to make note of the enemies they will make. They will strike back at when it suits them. Maybe at the worst time for the characters. If my suggestion above does not cool them down then repeated attacks certainly will. Between scrying, following, spying, and gather information jerks like your players will be easy to find and attack with summoned monsters and hired help.
astute1 01-12-05, 10:32 PM	Why aren't they dead? Seriously - I'd kill at least one of them just to make an example to the rest. Also, torture - always a viable option. I'm assuming the drow are keeping them alive for some important reason (I dunno, information, host bodies for demons, spider food... something.) Anyway, do they really need their arms for that? I mean, I think a nice idea is to take a evening's gaming and turn it into a torture session where the players have no chance of escape. Here's what I'd do: First, drag them off to some place where they think that they might have a chance of escaping... you know, leave them alone for a while so they can come up with a plan, let the panic set in for a while. While they're planning, just listen to what they say, and come up with the perfect counter-plan to defeat it and humiliate them. Let's say they try to make a break for it. Here's what you do: use sleeping poison on one of them, so that the rest of the party has to make a choice between going back to rescue their friend or escape (they think it's escape, at least.) Anyway, either way, now the pressure is on. If they don't go back for that guy, he gets coup de grace'd by the drow. You know he's going to be p1ssed at his "friends" after that. If they do go back, coup de grace the guy anyway, right in front of them. They'll probably drop a load right in their shorts. At any rate, the escape fails, because you listened to their plans. You can probably be kinda obvious about that - it only adds to the sense of impending doom and unfairness. Anyway, after that, it's off to the torture chambers - make sure you describe the tortures in sickening arm-twisting, bone-cracking, genetalia-skinning detail. Don't torture all of them, though, make sure you leave one person alive and completely unharmed. That person could be the one who's the least munchkinny, or the guy who brought donuts, or just some person you chose at random, it doesn't really matter, because he's going to get killed, too. Anyway, after that, ship them off to their cells to stew for a bit. They should be really upset by this point. Probably at you, but they've also got a scapegoat - the dude who didn't get hurt. Anyway, work that angle a bit more. The drow priestess decides to make him her consort (just for one night, but don't tell him that!) She tells him that he can live if he picks one of the other party members to die. Then she makes him execute that guy. He'll do it, because by now he sees what's happening to the rest of the party, and he's probably hoping to escape (if he refuses, kill him on the spot.) After that, she takes him away for a night in the pleasure chamber. The rest of the party, the maimed ones, are probably pretty upset. Anyway, when that guy comes back, he's pretty tired, so he goes to sleep, only he wakes up a few hours later in a cold sweat. He starts coughing and coughing uncontrollably. Then he's coughing up blood. Then he's coughing up blood and tiny spiders. Spiders burst from his chest, killing him and spraying blood all over the other party members. If you're really vicious (and by now, you should be getting a taste for it) you'll have the maimed party members fight off the spiders in a brutal match to the death. Everyone has a good laugh at Mr. I-didn't-get-tortured, though. Anyway, by now, you're probably down to one or two party members (if not, just get creative.) You'll want to let one escape, but not more than one. You also want to turn them against each other a little more. Have the Matron Mother come back and "inspect" them for quality. A little interview might be fun, too. Interview them one at a time - actually send the other player out of the room. Then, tell them that the other player offered to kill them in exchange for their freedom. Tell them that if they up the ante a bit, get a bit more creative & whatnot, you'll let them kill the other guy. Keep this going on for a while, or until one of the players comes up with something really creative. Then - kill one of them, using the method that person came up with. Ha Ha, joke's on you! Beat the other guy senseless and dump him somewhere. He gets to keep playing with his maimed character (make the maiming pretty good, too - a spellcaster without a tongue, or a peg-legged rogue just screams flavor) Tell the other players to make new characters at some lower level. The maimed fellow gets to stay at whatever high level he was at. A lesson is learned by everyone.
Shurdus 01-12-05, 10:33 PM	I like that, I really do. Having them followed and strike them because of their actions does not sound like it will make me look as if I am unreasonable. They call it upon themselves, right?
Shurdus 01-12-05, 11:18 PM	Btw thanks ppl for your quick replies. Dows anyone else has problems like this in your games? How do you handle it?
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-13-05, 01:36 AM	By the way, don't be afraid to hurt them. I have no problem in the world with arrogant PCs (players, it's another thing). If they want to me smartasses, fine by me. But be prepared to deal with the consequences. Remember, you gotta play your NPCs according to their personnality. If they're helpless, but defiantly (heroïcaly? ) give attitude to their jailer, then torture the hell out of them. If the PLAYERS (not PCs) gets upsets, tell them they have to deal with consequences. If it doesn't work, remind the immatures sobs it's a game.
75RD Drum Clip 01-13-05, 01:53 AM	A long time ago, I had two players who caused nothing but trouble for my and my pals sessions. Our group consisted of 5 people myself included, we all grew up in the same neighborhood and we played together all the time before D&D. Anyways, 2 of the players were nothing but a drag on the game and other ways. One read a Playboy hid in his folder, and the other would whine and Ruleslawyer incessantly. Solving this was more a matter of patience, ignoring it, and as DM, sticking it their characters more often than the others when I needed to "randomly" pick someone for something, usually bad.... :devil:
baric 01-13-05, 02:13 AM	OK he called the matron Mother a **** and he lives? Not in my game. Unless she has some thing even nastier planned for the PCs that would have resulted in an imediate beheading. She is DROW right?
VerinBlod 01-13-05, 04:38 AM	I have to go with Baric on this one. Just showing the faintest form of disrespect to a matron mother will get you killed in horrible ways. So calling her a **** will get you killed instantly. Right there on the spot! No save, no nothing, just insta kill! Concerning your question I would teach them a lesson or two. If they continue to disrespect your npc's they should live with the consequences! Astute1 has some sick but wonderful suggestions :D
Darastin 01-13-05, 07:45 AM	Ask your players the following question: "Imagine you're a king. Some commoners (i.e. non-nobles) come along and insult you. What would you do? Now imagine you were an especially cruel king, the insults were of the worst kind, and the commoners were from an enemy nation. What would you to, then? And now imagine the commoners were a kind of creature that is known to be inferior and worthless, one usually killed on sight. Again, what would you do? So tell me, what do you expect the Matron Mother to do?" Just my two €-cents; Darastin
Kratch 01-13-05, 09:19 AM	I have to go with Baric on this one. Just showing the faintest form of disrespect to a matron mother will get you killed in horrible ways. So calling her a **** will get you killed instantly. Right there on the spot! No save, no nothing, just insta kill! Concerning your question I would teach them a lesson or two. If they continue to disrespect your npc's they should live with the consequences! Astute1 has some sick but wonderful suggestions :D I disagree. It would be a slow, brutally painful death. And grusome to witness for the other players, but they would be forced too. then forced to actually experience it every night themselves through a nightmare spell or something. If they continue to disrespect, they'd get another player killed in an equally grusome and painful, yet different death which they would ALSO experience each night. Aint gonna sleep no more, no more.
nyysjan 01-13-05, 09:26 AM	if you are talking about their characters, don't kill em humiliate them if talking about the players, go ahead (if the cops ask, i didn't say that :P )
Mordmorgan the Mad 01-13-05, 09:28 AM	I'd have thrown the offending PC overboard and tell him to "talk his way outta that one". Drow usually aren't that kind though. Maybe you should turn that character into a Quth-Maren (see FF) and have throw him in the ring with the other PCs. Maybe the drow can place bets on it.
Ut-Napishtim 01-13-05, 09:40 AM	Yeah, I'd say she has a giant spider use them as an egg sack, and then they die horribly when the baby spiders burst from their torso devouring the bodies as their first meal. Then their bones are sold for a few silvers to a low-level Necromancer who wants to animate them for guards. Seriously, I'm playing in a game ATM where the DM doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. At the begining of the game, one of the players refused to bow when we were called in to see the local Lord. Then he bluntly, point-blank said: I'll work with you, but I'm not working for you. (To the Lord!)I was too shocked to say anything, but the DM let it slide like it was no big deal. The best thing to do would be to let them read this. The guy that runs the game I'm in has stumbled onto a couple of threads a couple of times and mentioned it to me. I just tell him: Yeah, that's the same thing I told you to your face last week, but you never freakin' listen to me until twenty people are backing me up online. :confused:
Thoronmir 01-13-05, 10:22 AM	The PCs are clearly jerks. What about the players? It’s time to explain the facts of life to them. Your role as a DM is not to bail them out of whatever roleplaying messes they make for themselves. Sooner or later, alienating everyone they meet will catch up to them. However, unless the PCs had a chance to repel the Drow pirates in the first place, you’ve railroaded them into an encounter they could not win. From your post, it’s not clear whether the hijacking was a precursor to the predetermined result of tossing the PCs into Drow prison. I raise this issue because I’ve heard of players reacting to such railroading by resorting to the same behavior you’ve described … effectively mocking every authority figure in the game … “daring” the DM to do something to them (since harming the PCs might disrupt the DM’s “plan”). It does not excuse the PCs’ behavior, but it might explain it. So, consider how much “free will” the party is allowed to exercise during adventures. Of course, the best thing you can do is talk to the players. Ask them why their PCs behave the way they do. Find out if the players are truly enjoying the game. Make sure they’re not expressing any frustrations with you through their characters. Explain how their conduct is affecting the game. I’d be tempted to give them a narrow window of amnesty and see if things improve. Let them know that if their PCs continue to act as they have, you’ll stop pulling punches when the NPCs react. If the players enjoy making new PCs that much, perhaps you should let them. Any “retaliation” you take to the PCs’ behavior will, at most, address the symptoms of the dysfunction in your group. Until you find out why the players feel compelled to act that way, you’ll never cure the cause. That said, my approach for an in-game solution would be to let them roleplay their imprisonment. Every week, we’d assemble, pull out our dice, and I’d look at them and say, “Okay, you’re all still in your separate cells. What do you do?” After a few hours of that, we’d pack up, go home, and return next week for another episode of “Drow Oz.” To avoid the “railroading” label, you’d need to let them make as many escape attempts as they like. But you’re not expected to make sure the PCs have either the tools or opportunities to escape. Oh yeah, if you want to torture them (the PCs, not the players), that’s okay too. I’d use something that causes Ability Damage … seeing your precious stats dwindle away is very demoralizing.
Joe Khol 01-13-05, 10:27 AM	I must say it really amuses me to no end. :P It is truly funny at the moment they come up with this kind of stuff, but I find it hard to maintain a degree of realism. There's your problem. You're giving your players mixed messages. If you're laughing along with them when they do these silly little things how can you expect them not to keep doing it? You can't go 'that’s soooo funny' one minute and 'stop spoiling my game' the next. If you really want a more realistic game then you have to tell the players that up-front and create the more serious atmosphere. You can still joke and play about - D&D is meant to be fun after all but keep it OOC. Whether you or your players are willing and able to do that is a whole different matter.
Phrennzy 01-13-05, 10:30 AM	Consider the consequences if you were to call your boss a jerk/idiot/****/whatever. What would happen? The PCs are mouthing off - if you want to call them on it, do so. I would let them know before the game that their characters' outbursts will have game effects. You might open the session with them all having been taken seperately out of the cell and beaten to within an inch of their life (okay, within a hit point of their life). Perhaps a permanent scar signifying their imminent sacrifice to Lolth. (The permanency shows that you mean business). Perhaps the loss of an eye or limb. If you feel you need to play out their seperation by hold person/sleep poison/whatever, then do so. Then have the Matron Mother's handmaiden return to explain their upcoming sacrifice. Explain in graphic detail. Anyone popping off is shot by one of the guards and left to bleed to death. (The other PCs can attempt Heal Checks). The exact repercussions are up to you as a DM, and it's up to you to decide/deduce how much enjoyment everyone would get from a campaign where their words/actions have consequences.
Xexyz 01-13-05, 12:07 PM	Quit the game and find a new group of players. Seriously. If they intentionally act like idiots in game and then whine and complain out of game when their characters have to face the consequences of their stupidity then you need to tell them to stop being jerks or stop playing with them. From what you wrote I don't think any amount of in game action is going to stop them from acting the way they are.
Uratoh 01-13-05, 12:24 PM	Sounds like your PCs aren't 'trained' to play properly...I dont mean dictate the way they act, etc, but a little metagaming goes a long way...everyone usually knows out of game that the Drow are a bunch of evil, 'stab your mother to get promoted' types and whenever a PC sees the sadistic looking, black skinned individuals they react in character how someone would likely really react...not looking at them as 'monster X' etc, but as something that's potentially fatal, etc... if I'd been running the drow and they mouthed off to the matron...she'd happily point out, you don't need a tongue to scream...just before she had it removed.
Phrennzy 01-13-05, 02:07 PM	Sounds like your PCs aren't 'trained' to play properly...I dont mean dictate the way they act, etc, but a little metagaming goes a long way...everyone usually knows out of game that the Drow are a bunch of evil, 'stab your mother to get promoted' types and whenever a PC sees the sadistic looking, black skinned individuals they react in character how someone would likely really react...not looking at them as 'monster X' etc, but as something that's potentially fatal, etc... if I'd been running the drow and they mouthed off to the matron...she'd happily point out, you don't need a tongue to scream...just before she had it removed. Yep, a lot of it is training. I mean, my brother mouths off at times about the NPCs, but he never ever means it in game, and it is kept to a minimum when it's the big boy and important moments, because I have asked/told/warned him to keep comments to a minimum at times like that. Drow Matron Mothers are ALWAYS a time like that. Rather than the tongue thing, I would have blasted the most offensive PC with the highest level spell she had - something messy like implosion or something. Not a word from her, just a WHAM! Not even a casting motion - it was silent and stilled. Just a look and maybe a head tilt and SPLOOSH! the PC is inside out and dead a moment later. That would be good for shock value. ANd then she can just walk away. Let the PCs sit and stare at the gooey remains. And after a couple of days when it putrifies, they can start making disease checks. Leave them in prison for a month or two with very little food. Tormented by the guards and sick from disease. Eventually you can toss another NPC in the cell across the way who won't speak to them at first, but they can coax him into talking. If they don't, then allow HIS friends to rescue HIM, leaving the PCs to fend for themselves.
Slider33 01-13-05, 03:06 PM	Sometimes you gotta do what is most realistic at the time. Sounds to me like they are getting quite arrogant, and that can be a result of being "too nice". But...there is a catch. There is a chance that is their style of play, yet they must accept the in-game consequences of their behavior. If they get angry OOC and throw a fit just because you were doing your job, then it's a nasty situation and they should grow up and/or become more respectful to your efforts that you make as a DM. Not every situation that they make arses of themselves needs to be resulted in death, but consequences of disrepecting important NPC's should be dealth with harshly, an equally arrogant noble will have their heads. And I'm guessing a Drow wouldn't hesitate to cut off some heads, torture, maim, cripple etc. etc. Sometimes players need to be taught humility if they step out of line, but on the other hand it's all for fun and if you, and everyone else is enjoying the game then ya pretty much have to just "roll with it". It's up to you really, trust your gut instinct on this one. If you know it's harmless, then it's okay to play along. If it's getting out of hand, start executing some of those methods that were suggested. When PC's are captured they have no business messing with their captors, such things ALWAYS turn out bad for the prisoner. As the saying goes, don't tick off your executioner/torturer because if you do it's just going to be worse for you.
General_Ridley 01-13-05, 03:26 PM	kill them, or use magic to lower all their scores to 3.
VerinBlod 01-13-05, 03:40 PM	I disagree. It would be a slow, brutally painful death. And grusome to witness for the other players, but they would be forced too. then forced to actually experience it every night themselves through a nightmare spell or something. If they continue to disrespect, they'd get another player killed in an equally grusome and painful, yet different death which they would ALSO experience each night. Aint gonna sleep no more, no more. Well sometimes killing the offender quick and dirty gets the message better across: Don't mess with important npc's! Besides in this example I find it more justifying for a matron mother to show to her house that she doesn't tolerate any form of disrespect. Because if she would tolerate this kind of behaviour she'd better watch her back, for one of her daughters might want to take over her house.
Maerdash 01-13-05, 03:51 PM	Give them a warning bafore the game, tell them how you feel about how their action are causing a loss of realism in the game because your trying to be a nice guy and let them off the hook. If that doesnt work and they still want to pretend that their characters are the baddest motha...shut yo mouth SHAFT....errr yeah any way lay waste to the party, slowly and painfully but DONT kill them you are after all a nice guy. Instaed take the rogue and chop his legs off starting with the toes, pull his fingernails off then cut his hand off at the elbow. For the party wizard/sorceror/cleric/druid take out their tongues then for good measurehave the drow open their throats use healing magics to keep them alive while they remove their vocal cords "just to be sure" you understand" heal them so that they dont bleed to death then take large heavy mallets and turn their hands into jelly, take one spell caster aside and simply have the drow surgically remove the bones from his shoulders down then heal him up so he doesnt die from the loss of blood(yuo ARE after all a nice dm and dont want to kill the pc's), for your fighter types, what you want to do is feeblemind them, cut their eyes out and remove their hands for good measure. next you take the party and leave them just outside the gates of the smallest village in the most remote region you can think of in your game, make sure the nearest healer other than a herbalist is WEEKS away. Say to your players: " Gee guys im sorry, but i did warn you.....hey look at it this way your characters are still alive you can still play them if you would like." then go to the bathroom and laugh silently because of the priceless "the dm actually SMASHED us" looks on their faces. If they cant handle it to bad tell one of them they can dm or just find a new group. Of they are still jerks after you ask them not to be they deserve it, but remember always try to talk to your players first you can be surprised sometimes. Sorry for the length of the post but this gets on my nerves and the face that ive had to DO the things i just wrote to pc's annoys me all the more have fun in the world of the imagination everybody
CuttinCurt 01-13-05, 03:52 PM	I have no problems aswering this one. Now mind you that I have been playing this game for over 20 years, and DM'd much of that time too. But this behavior has got to stop. You are not having fun, your players are not acting in character, (if they are, then get rid of them and find some new and more mature players), and you feel like you can not be real without killing them. Here is the answer to all your problems... Kill them. They seem to have deserved it a hundred times already, so you be real. Make them adjust. Tell them that you want them to act in character. And characters that spit on nobles of the realm are killed or thrown in prison. Then make them make new characters. (Id doesnt take a brain surgeon to figure out there are people that you just dont insult...) They will get tired of making new characters. Hopefully. But the main thing is that they pay for thier actions when they are bad. It must be done. Being a nice DM is good, and I am sure your players love that they are not put in position to die often. But, you must be stern when it comes to this bad behavior. If I were to spit on a noble that my dm put in our path then know I would find myself in jail and my reputation destroyed very quickly. Does that mean I would never spit on them... no. If they insulted me or I knew they were evil at heart or some other scenario that showed me this noble was not worthy of respect, then I would consider insulting them if the time was right. But spit on every noble.... not in your life. You must stop this with your dm'ing skills. Tell them that it will not be tolerated. I would quit a gaming group like this and never look back unless I knew the DM would do something about it. It seems like you are like minded with me in that you hate the stupidity. So take care of it. CC
Shadow DM 01-13-05, 04:12 PM	Alright, even though everyone else has chimed in on this one I will add my two cents. I have been playing for about 14 years now and I figure my advice could be usefull. Now the thing about D&D is that it's a game and you are supposed to have fun. It seems like you are using this principle in your game. However to maintain the D&D environment and keep a believable world going, you have to treat the PCs ALMOST exactly how you would treat the NPCs in a similar situation. I assume you are running Forgotten Realms? Well...yes...as someone said calling the Matron Mother of a Drow house a **** without an army behind you will probably find your head hanging from her house wall after a long and fun night of torture. Are the dark elves in your world different? More mercifull than regular dark elves? Need those PCs alive for some reason? Alright, a better question is how long have you been allowing this sort of behavior to go on for and how old is this game? One problem is if you have been letting your PCs get away with this for years, you have established a norm in your game. Once you do that, your players become confortable with that style of game. The longer something is a norm the harder it is to change it and the more resistance and anger you will meet with when you do. My advice...if you don't want this type of behavior to become a norm and you want to do justice to how evil and merciless the drow in your world are. Use one of the suggestions noted above or... Seperate the party members...dominate the whole group minus the most troublesome member(if they are locked in a Cell the mages can keep trying until it works), tell the most troublesome ones that if he can defeat some enemies in an arena match he will be set free else the whole party will be killed. Have the arena match consist of him and all his friends. Have the some of the dominated ones offer a truce against some less-liked party members then have them be betray him later. Then any survivors are tortured for the entire night with their heads hung on the wall in the morning! Just one happy night in Drow land! =D
screwtape 01-13-05, 04:38 PM	would it be ok if I was going to slay them all because they behave like morons? It is your solemn right - NAY - it is your DUTY to slay them. Actions have consequences. or, they should have consequences, anyway. As the DM it is your responsibility to be the reality check for player miscreants. You went out of your way to help them out of a jam of their creation and the ungrateful slugs spat on your lifeline to them. They made their bed. Lay waste.
delroland 01-13-05, 08:06 PM	Are these normal drow, as in the NE type that are arachnophiles who live in underground caverns of doom? Or are these some sort of home-brewed sky pirate drow that aren't necessarily NE? Also, let me make one suggestion. I personally feel that these players are being jerkwads, so in my campaigns I would smack them down. HOWEVER, one of the greatest talents a DM can possess or develop is the ability to adapt to the play style of the players. In this case, I would have the matron be so absolutely stunned that a seemingly totally helpless adventurer would dare insult her to her face, when she can obviously have them slaughtered at any moment. This would intrigue her, and so, just to satisfy her curiosity and boredom, she could give them some epic challenge or task that they would have to complete in order to avoid a painful death by bebelith ingestion. Now, you still want to put the players into their places somewhat, so for the few days it takes for the matron to ponder and digest this rare and strange occurence of the PC's being balsy enough to insult her, her underlings (by no command, just as an automatic response to this outrage) torture the bejeezus out of the PC's. Then, just as the fatal blow is to be delivered, a messenger commands the torturers to stop, clean up the PC's, and bring them to the matron. Remember, fortune favors the bold. If the characters can walk the walk to back up their talk, they will become world-shaking heroes that will be remembered in legend. Odds are, though, that they just need a Player Smart:censored: Smackdown.
danielinthewolvesden 01-13-05, 08:28 PM	In campaigns that I run my players always mess up horribly. They have a knack for making themselves horribly unpopular. My problem this. Last session they were captured by the drow and taken to the floating drow citadel - you have to surprise them somehow, right? :) If it is "always' and with different players- the problem isn't with the players- it is with the DM. If it is the same group of players- then you guys need to sit down and have a nice long talk about the kind of game you want to run; and they want to play in. Listen to them, hear them out- but also explain what you like to run. :teach: Having the PC's captured like that is generally cheesy railroading. IF- and I want to stress that IF- you do that a lot- then the players are just revelling. They have no control, and they are on a railroad ride- and not a "gouda" one at that (that pun likely doesn't work in Dutch). So they do one of the few things they can do to give themselves an illusion they have some choice & control in the game- they mouth off. This doesn't seem like an "in game- in character' problem. Thus, the solution is not to be found by "slaying them".
Gilganarz_the_reporter 01-13-05, 09:32 PM	Pcs mouthing off to a DROW MATRON MOTHER??? teach em their place. Have male Pcs nuetered. With a blunt dagger. Preferably dipped in something pain causing. Female Pcs should be tortured naked on a rack for a few hours and then thrown to the guards for some fun. Once it`s all over, have em enslaved
Sukugaru 01-13-05, 10:35 PM	Most of what I wanted to mention has already been mentioned. So I'll just limit myself to a couple of points: * If you've been letting your players get away with these sorts of things for a while, they're probably taking advantage of that. Unfortunately, yes, some of the blame here lies with you. The solution, of course, is to stop letting them get away with everything. :) * Insulting a matron mother like that would normally end in their death, probably slow, tortured, and agonising. I won't describe how, though - that's up to you. :D Though I like the suggestion of the matron mother being intrigued by this defiance and allowing them to live... for a little longer. Perhaps minus a couple of minor parts, such as ears or littel fingers, to show them who's in charge. (If, however, the PCs continue to mouth off, then I can see the matron mother saying this whole idea was foolish and ordering their deaths.) Also, am I the only one deeply disturbed by some of the torture suggestions in this thread? Especially the suggestion to have any female characters raped by the guards. :headexplo
Gilganarz_the_reporter 01-13-05, 11:23 PM	Blame `Insurrection` Don`t blame me!
ShadowDragon8685 01-13-05, 11:40 PM	<snip> Also, am I the only one deeply disturbed by some of the torture suggestions in this thread? Especially the suggestion to have any female characters raped by the guards. :headexplo No, not really. That's what Drow would do.
evilgenius 01-13-05, 11:57 PM	If you want to punish them, killing PCs and having them roll up new ones is only marginally effective (even if it's after a session of torture). This does three negative things; 1. The Players sit there for a session of Torture getting a solid "us vs the DM" attitude on which will probably translate to their next characters after the current crop of insolent PCs are killed... 2. The Players create new characters, and after that one night of "punishment" they have fresh, perfectly new characters - effectively no ramification of their earlier insolense remains. 3. As with any Total Party Kill (TPK) or near-TPK, your story is shot. Back to the Drawing Boards amigo. How's about this instead? Strip them, remove all gear, brand them and maim them. KEEP THEIR CHARACTERS ALIVE. Don't go into a long session describing torture, it will just draw itself out and they will lose interest if they (logically) conclude that they're just going to die anyways at the end of it. Step 1: Seperate the party - remove or kill the characters capable of healing Blindness, amputation, scarring, muting, deafening, disease and other permanent mutilations. Maybe kill the LEAST insolent character (he gets a merciful death) Let his character be near the party's power level, since it's a reward, not a punishment really. Step 2: Give the party members selected blindness, amputation, scarring, muting, deafening, disease and other permanent mutilations. Each character should be rendered useless for his specialization. Step 3: Geas them to not commit suicide (to prevent "new characters"). Step 4: Release the party into the underdark. Now run a two to four session campaign of them groping their way back to the surface world. Don't let them all die - perhaps Lolth has something special for them, or there's a Drow tracking party looking after them and keeping other underdark denizens from finishing them off. When they get to the surface, the exit is VERY close to or inside the lands of one of the surface nobles they were insolent to, who will agree to heal them if they grovel, snivel and beg. Step 5: The party should bear PERMANENT penalties for this ordeal, and they should manifest as NUMBERS ON THE CHARACTER SHEETS. That way Players don't forget they have these disadvantages, and why they have them. That's what I would do. L8er evilgenius
Mordin 01-14-05, 12:00 AM	:OMG! :uh-huh: They call a matron a ****, easy they die. :plotting: Tie them up and desintegrate them one at a time then make them print there own stat sheets and make bran new level 1 PC's. Continue doing this untill they realize that PC's decome epic because they are smart not because they have arrogent :censored:
danielinthewolvesden 01-14-05, 03:42 AM	If you want to punish them, killing PCs and having them roll up new ones is only marginally effective (even if it's after a session of torture). This does three negative things; 1. The Players sit there for a session of Torture getting a solid "us vs the DM" attitude on which will probably translate to their next characters after the current crop of insolent PCs are killed... 2. The Players create new characters, and after that one night of "punishment" they have fresh, perfectly new characters - effectively no ramification of their earlier insolense remains. 3. As with any Total Party Kill (TPK) or near-TPK, your story is shot. Back to the Drawing Boards amigo. How's about this instead? Strip them, remove all gear, brand them and maim them. KEEP THEIR CHARACTERS ALIVE. Don't go into a long session describing torture, it will just draw itself out and they will lose interest if they (logically) conclude that they're just going to die anyways at the end of it. Step 1: Seperate the party - remove or kill the characters capable of healing Blindness, amputation, scarring, muting, deafening, disease and other permanent mutilations. Maybe kill the LEAST insolent character (he gets a merciful death) Let his character be near the party's power level, since it's a reward, not a punishment really. Step 2: Give the party members selected blindness, amputation, scarring, muting, deafening, disease and other permanent mutilations. Each character should be rendered useless for his specialization. Step 3: Geas them to not commit suicide (to prevent "new characters"). Step 4: Release the party into the underdark. Now run a two to four session campaign of them groping their way back to the surface world. Don't let them all die - perhaps Lolth has something special for them, or there's a Drow tracking party looking after them and keeping other underdark denizens from finishing them off. When they get to the surface, the exit is VERY close to or inside the lands of one of the surface nobles they were insolent to, who will agree to heal them if they grovel, snivel and beg. Step 5: The party should bear PERMANENT penalties for this ordeal, and they should manifest as NUMBERS ON THE CHARACTER SHEETS. That way Players don't forget they have these disadvantages, and why they have them. That's what I would do. L8er evilgenius And then they walk out in a body, and find another DM. That's what I would do. :nonono: :noway:
Sukugaru 01-14-05, 08:49 AM	No, not really. That's what Drow would do. Of *course* the Drow would torture them horribly until they die slow, agonising, screaming deaths. (And that's just the dwarven barbarian. You don't want to know what sort of noises the pansy elf wizard was making when he went.) I'm still disturbed by the torture ideas this thread has been generating. :ahem: Also, as Danielinthewolvesden has shown, a long session of nothing but gruesomely described torture that effectively completely cripples the characters is going to feel like not-fun railroading and completely alienate the players. What the OP needs is a firm but fair resolution to the fact that they've gone too far this time. I see two possibilities: 1) Insta-kill. "For the terrible insult to the drow, you are all sentenced to die slowly and horribly. Over the next few weeks you are all in constant pain and agony until you finally, blessedly, die. Create new characters, please, and don't be so silly next time." That's it. Short, simple, and to the point. Which is extreme. So therefore there is option 2: 2) A second chance, as described by delroland. The DM also discusses their PC's actions and explains beforehand that the players have to be careful, or their characters will end up dead. Without such a warning the characters might just insult the matron mother again and continue being arrogant and rude jerks. So anyway. That's my five cents.
Shurdus 01-14-05, 09:26 AM	They have no control, and they are on a railroad ride- and not a "gouda" one at that (that pun likely doesn't work in Dutch). Gouda is a city in Holland where a lot of the Dutch cheese comes from. Unless that's what you meant the punt does indeed not work in Dutch :D I value all of your inputs ppl! I now realize that I probably was railroading them too much. I'm not that experienced as a DM. Also my party messes up a lot and they do stuff they know I did not anticipate just to see what will happen. So if I want to tell them a story it it REALLY hard for me to get them where I need them. So I railroaded them for a session or so. I guess that's what was the cause of their extreme reaction to the matron mother. I also feel reinforced in my instincts as a DM. I'm glad to see that a lot of ppl would have slain them for insulting the drow. It makes me feel as if I'm not a bad dm out to get them, but instead I'm in my right and I do not have to be a nice guy all the time. As was mentioned somewhere in this thread, it's not my job to bail them out every time they mess up. Let the TPKing commence! :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :devil:
danielinthewolvesden 01-14-05, 11:17 AM	Gouda is a city in Holland where a lot of the Dutch cheese comes from. Unless that's what you meant the punt does indeed not work in Dutch :D I value all of your inputs ppl! I now realize that I probably was railroading them too much. I'm not that experienced as a DM. Also my party messes up a lot and they do stuff they know I did not anticipate just to see what will happen. So if I want to tell them a story it it REALLY hard for me to get them where I need them. So I railroaded them for a session or so. I guess that's what was the cause of their extreme reaction to the matron mother. I also feel reinforced in my instincts as a DM. I'm glad to see that a lot of ppl would have slain them for insulting the drow. It makes me feel as if I'm not a bad dm out to get them, but instead I'm in my right and I do not have to be a nice guy all the time. As was mentioned somewhere in this thread, it's not my job to bail them out every time they mess up. Let the TPKing commence! :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :devil: Well, you see "gouda' here is a cheese, and sounds like "good' so it was a pun/play on words to say "it's not a good railroad ride, it's cheesy". Indeed- if they had gotten themselves in that mess to start with - a TPK could be the right thing. However- you put them there. Indeed "it's not you job to bail them out every time they mess up"- but it is you job to put them into survivable situations- which in general- insults or no- being captured by the drow isn't. But they are going to look upon this as a "railroad ride to death" if you do punish them. Let the drow laugh at them instead. Or, if you must- say "the drow kill you"... "Now, for my next campaign, I'd like some more input from you guys." Really, this isn't an IC problem. It's a OOC prblem. We have an inexperiened DM who railroads too much, and a group of sullen players who use their characters to rebel for them. You're one game away from disintigrating. Sit down and talk with them.
Uratoh 01-14-05, 11:19 AM	I'm not gonna say what you should do to em, but the insulting of a drow matron that doesnt involve instant death on your part means one of two things: 1: She's got something WORSE in mind. 2: her daughter/cousin/rival house is going to kill her because she's weak, then execute you/something worse before executing you to prove theyre not as weak as she was. That's just a brief glimpse into Drow Society for you. Of course, if you really want to keep the PCs alive, perhaps #2 could be a rival house, and they can somehow escape during the turmoil...but I honestly dont recomend it @_@.
Nichos 01-15-05, 03:47 AM	I occasionly have problems with my players who tend to do, what to me (ie. the DM,) are very stupid things. Because of that I set in place a system of XP penalty. Depending on the severity of their stupiness I would give them punishment, in the form of a loss of XP. They learnt very quickly that some of their stupid actions, have repercusions for them. Another system I have used before is reputation, both fame and infamy. Both of these sytems have pro's and con's, but as a Dm you will lose the flow if you allow the players to walk over you. Physical repercusions also do work, (such as the cutting out the tongues.) One memorable time when i was a player, was another member whose character simply thought women were useless, spat on them, hit them etc. After one time the player went a little too far, the Dm had the characters hand cut off, and cast a form of permamenancy overlaid on a dispel magic on the stump, all regenerating efforts were unsuccessful. He suddenly became a lot more respectful.
angryman 01-15-05, 10:52 AM	Well, as a (repeated) PC victim of railroading DM kidnappings, let me tell you, it's damned frustrating to be captured IF it feels contrived. If it feels reasonable, then I don't mind it. As a PC I've spat on guards etc, but I also know that if my paladin spits on the Half-Fiendish blackguard, he's going to die. I EXPECT it, but if that's what my character would do, so be it. Also punishing a character for being like that is a little harsh- unless it's just the player who is always obnoxious. So, use your best judgement here, nobody likes a railroad, and nobody likes their character being mutilated.
Donraj 01-15-05, 01:35 PM	No, not really. That's what Drow would do. Actually, no, its not. From the books I've read on the drow rape is considered a major taboo, a crime that is rarely crossed even in their society. Course, this applies to matriarchial, Lolth-worshipping drow, but given that we are talking about a matron mother here it seems pretty clear that this is a traditional drow culture we're talking about. Although I'm not sure if that prohibition extends to non-drow races.
CyberDoc 01-16-05, 12:58 AM	Nuke the tards. They obviously are too stupid to live. That or have a few eye of gruumsh's show em some orc lovin up close and personal.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-17-05, 12:03 AM	Well, as a (repeated) PC victim of railroading DM kidnappings, let me tell you, it's damned frustrating to be captured IF it feels contrived. If it feels reasonable, then I don't mind it. As a PC I've spat on guards etc, but I also know that if my paladin spits on the Half-Fiendish blackguard, he's going to die. I EXPECT it, but if that's what my character would do, so be it. Also punishing a character for being like that is a little harsh- unless it's just the player who is always obnoxious. So, use your best judgement here, nobody likes a railroad, and nobody likes their character being mutilated. True, a railroading DM is a pain in the ass. so are players who don't like dealing with the consequences. In real life, if you insult/threaten somebody, be prepared to deal with the consequences or don't do it. Same goes in a game. Do try to speak with them first, though. Maybe they'll understand. If not, statistical penalties is the only way to make them learn. As for the torture ideas, didn't you know that most D&D players are deeply disturbed satanists? :P
Shadow DM 01-17-05, 01:27 AM	DMs don't railroad, that's a myth. You just happen to always take the path we have best planned! :D Anyway, why is this thread still going...the answer has been given a hundred times. Torture and/or kill and/or slavery. Mix and match, have some fun, whatever order makes you happy. (And yes death can come first, kill, re-animate, torture and slavery...recipe for the perfect punishment served a la drow!)
spasheridan 01-17-05, 04:36 AM	**snipped to just highlight the good parts** Let's say they try to make a break for it. Here's what you do: use sleeping poison on one of them, so that the rest of the party has to make a choice between going back to rescue their friend or escape (they think it's escape, at least.) Anyway, either way, now the pressure is on. If they don't go back for that guy, he gets coup de grace'd by the drow. You know he's going to be p1ssed at his "friends" after that. If they do go back, coup de grace the guy anyway, right in front of them. They'll probably drop a load right in their shorts. At any rate, the escape fails, because you listened to their plans. You can probably be kinda obvious about that - it only adds to the sense of impending doom and unfairness. Anyway, after that, it's off to the torture chambers - make sure you describe the tortures in sickening arm-twisting, bone-cracking, genetalia-skinning detail. Don't torture all of them, though, make sure you leave one person alive and completely unharmed. That person could be the one who's the least munchkinny, or the guy who brought donuts, or just some person you chose at random, it doesn't really matter, because he's going to get killed, too. Anyway, after that, ship them off to their cells to stew for a bit. They should be really upset by this point. Probably at you, but they've also got a scapegoat - the dude who didn't get hurt. Anyway, work that angle a bit more. The drow priestess decides to make him her consort (just for one night, but don't tell him that!) She tells him that he can live if he picks one of the other party members to die. Then she makes him execute that guy. He'll do it, because by now he sees what's happening to the rest of the party, and he's probably hoping to escape (if he refuses, kill him on the spot.) After that, she takes him away for a night in the pleasure chamber. The rest of the party, the maimed ones, are probably pretty upset. Anyway, when that guy comes back, he's pretty tired, so he goes to sleep, only he wakes up a few hours later in a cold sweat. He starts coughing and coughing uncontrollably. Then he's coughing up blood. Then he's coughing up blood and tiny spiders. Spiders burst from his chest, killing him and spraying blood all over the other party members. If you're really vicious (and by now, you should be getting a taste for it) you'll have the maimed party members fight off the spiders in a brutal match to the death. Everyone has a good laugh at Mr. I-didn't-get-tortured, though. You're my hero
Tevish Szat 01-17-05, 04:40 AM	they insulted a drow matron mother two her face. they are so doomed, it isn't even funny. Maybe some will have the mercy of death. others may be polymorpled into food for spiders, still others not only slain but raised as the undead, mindless workers to serve thr drow (theoretically) forever. torture them all first. I will not address the railroading nad lacked info points, but rather stick to cause/effect.
angryman 01-17-05, 09:24 AM	Well, using my example, if my paladin character was kidnapped by a Drow matron, I'd just ignore her- I wouldn't bother to insult her, as that's really just venting, but she'd get nothing out of me. If he did decide to mouth off and spit on her, I'd expect whatever happened...
Shurdus 01-17-05, 09:45 AM	Actually, no, its not. From the books I've read on the drow rape is considered a major taboo, a crime that is rarely crossed even in their society. Course, this applies to matriarchial, Lolth-worshipping drow, but given that we are talking about a matron mother here it seems pretty clear that this is a traditional drow culture we're talking about. Although I'm not sure if that prohibition extends to non-drow races.No, they were actually exiles from the traditional drow culture. imc the drow were exiled from the elves because of their devotion to pegan gods - Lloth and her entourage. Because Lloth was already quite paranoid - being cast out of the normal pantheon before - she allowed no worshipping except of worshipping dircted to her. Some of he drow dared not defy he other gods, fearing they might anger them. So they were devoted to Ghaunadaur. They were discovered and exiled from the drow. So they resurfaced. The elven gods decided to ive them another chance and be merciful on them. They - the elven gods that is - created a floating citadel where they could live, isolated from the other races so they would not be slaughtered. So actually they are Ghaunadaur worshippers. Other from that they were normal drow. :)
Annaylli 01-17-05, 12:29 PM	I'll go against the grain here and give a few alternatives: 1. As said earlier, players may be trying to de-rail the railroad you are running. In response, railroad less and give them a 'take back'. If they test your resolve than kill them/etc. 2. If they are consistently de-railing every role-play encounter you give them (even if they are the dominant party), they probably don't actually want to role-play. Switch to a more hack 'n slash/high action format. Nothing wrong with HnS, it's just not 'high drama role-play'. 3. If they only mess up your encounters where they are in the inferior position (they must kow tow), then don't put them in those kind of encounters, or play them out in 3rd person (summarize and then start the encounter at a point where they actually can do something they enjoy). They may not find it particularly fun to suck up to, or otherwise play the inferior role. They may not enjoy role-playing when they have only one possible choice of action (other than death).
ForgottenCode 01-17-05, 05:37 PM	Shurdus: I don't really have anything to add, only I've very curious how this turns out, whatever you decide to do.
Shurdus 01-17-05, 06:45 PM	I decided to let them escape the drow city... :weep: The matron mother wiped the spit from her face and said she was going to decide what horrors to bestow upon them. She then left. She decided to sacrifice them all to Ghaunadaur. So preparations were made and finally the PCs were taken from their cells. They decided to beat up the guards - they were only lvl 3... - and they magically succeeded - did I mention I was too nice for a dm? Anyway, once away from their cellblock they went to the armory along with the NPC that I had put in prison just to provide some way of escaping. With only a few hundred yards left to the armory they were discovered and all hell broke loose. they rushe to the top of the tower where the armory was located, bullrushing the guards off the edge. With a terifying scream they fell to their deaths. All the time arrows wer shot at the party. They ricochetted (sp?) off the walls all around them. They entered the armory and barricaded it from the inside. They found the gem in which a wish spell was stored. Then they took all the scrolls and valuables they could carry and set the rest of the scrolls on fire. Then the drow succeeded in forcing the door. At that very moment the NPC teleported the party to the underwater Elf city. the PC's were all heroes after that, having survived what only few have survived before. End of my campaign. :P Now one of the others will take it from here. And I'm glad. One out of the four players is a ruleslawyer, always wanting me to change the rules so he will have the advantage and always talking ooc... I love dming for the other three players, and for othe groups as well, just not for that single guy. He annoys me to no end. Anyway, the end. :)