Can I whirlwind the hydra? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can I whirlwind the hydra? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ravenspawn
12-11-05, 10:08 PM I've had a situation where the PC's in my campaign encountered a hydra. Now the MM specifically states that characters w/o the Imp. Sunder feat will find it difficult and dangerous... :pile:
:ahem: ...but what about other feats; would Whirlwind Attack feat be applicable? If you can target each head with the Sundering maneuver, can you think of each head as a seperate foe for purposes of Whirlwind Attack? And then i think of Great Cleave, cut off a head and wack another head? :thinks:
:rolleye2: ...then the wizard of the group asks if he can have his Chain Lighting arc to the heads as secondary targets? I allowed it that once but ruled that secondary arcs must to towards other individual entities.

Can anyone give me some feedback? :help: Thanks!!
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
12-11-05, 11:08 PM If the campaign uses action points, I'd say that if he has Improved Sunder and Whirlwind Attack he could blow an action point and he could do it, but even then he would need to still have Improved Sunder. In the case of Cleave, no problem. Sunder through one and the force carries the blow into another head.

As for Chain Lightning, it wouldn't be particularly game breaking, but it also would lack consistancy. The point is that the lightning would arc to a whole other body. In this case, it wouldn't necessarily arc since the heads are all physically attached to the SAME body. Again, I'd say blow an action point to do it.
Zorminster
12-12-05, 01:46 AM if you want to be really stringent on the rules:

take the hydras largest facing and assume the heads lines up across this facing.
Then, divide by the number of heads. this gives spacing from neck to neck on the best. Now, whats the melee's reach? If its 5 foot, assume he stands on an intersection- he can reach a all adjacent squares with whirlwind- so 3 squares on one face. Take the spacing and divide by 15'. thats how many heads could be whirlwinded at once.

With cleave I would let it work no question, and with chain lightning I would let it arc to non-adjacent heads. thats not game breaking and its still fun for the players.
orionm42
12-12-05, 09:37 AM WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL]
Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

Emphasis mine.

The Hydra is one opponent. IMO, you cannot treat each head of a Hydra like a separate opponent...just like you cannot treat each head of an Ettin (or any other creature with more than one head) as a separate opponent.
DarkWarriorKarg
12-12-05, 10:44 PM Emphasis mine.

The Hydra is one opponent. IMO, you cannot treat each head of a Hydra like a separate opponent...just like you cannot treat each head of an Ettin (or any other creature with more than one head) as a separate opponent.

Actually, the sticking point in this is that the HYdra's heads ARE considered seperate opponents. They can be targeted seperately from the main body. It is the only creature I know of that has this "feature". Ettins do not have that in their writeup.
Thrabar_Freehlem
12-13-05, 12:05 AM For goodness sake, you know that you can actually target individaul areas on every creature. The heads of a hydra ar concidered seperate heads because they are just that, seperate heads, they still all have to act on the same turn, and they are all conected to the same body, counting them together to make a single creature.

Therefore, a chain lightening attack techniqually hits every head to begin with and then shoots to other opponents around it. The sunder is used to cut off a head with a single hit so that way there isn't any time for its fast healing to take hold that round and grow it back. And great cleave and whirl wind don't effect it either, because it is only one monster with multiple heads. Remember, it is one monster, not several sharing the same body!
Arear effects only heart the monster as a whole, not each head seperatley, I know this wasn't discussed, but I thought that I would throw that one in.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
12-13-05, 12:49 AM Think of the logic behind Cleave, though. It's the force of the blow carrying your attack clean through your opponent. When you deal enough damage to sever a head, it's entirely reasonable that your attack could lop it off and have enough force to go after another head.
ravenspawn
12-13-05, 01:07 AM In future encounters with hydras, i will handle like this ;

Whirlwind attack = yes, but you can hit 2-5 heads in a round as they dart in & out of reach, but you provoke AoO, unless you have Imp.Sunder.

Cleave = no, as the hydra itself is still alive & kicking, or biting in this case.

Chain Lightning = only arcs to entirely individual creatures, not parts of their anatomy.
ravenspawn
12-13-05, 01:12 AM Think of the logic behind Cleave, though. It's the force of the blow carrying your attack clean through your opponent. When you deal enough damage to sever a head, it's entirely reasonable that your attack could lop it off and have enough force to go after another head.

I see the sense in that, but just for my campaign, i think there are enough feats that can be used against a hydra as is (Imp Sunder & Whirlwind). Like some one else metioned, no other creature has specific rules about hitting it, not the Ettin or even the chimera.
Terraneaux
12-13-05, 02:10 AM The Hydra's heads are not seperate opponents. Think of them as held items or weapons; that's why improved sunder gives you a benefit to attacking them.
ravenspawn
12-13-05, 10:23 AM The Hydra's heads are not seperate opponents. Think of them as held items or weapons; that's why improved sunder gives you a benefit to attacking them.

That's the best point i've read so far, thanks. So in future encounters with hydras, i will handle like this ;

Whirlwind attack = no, but you can target the heads to sunder them with standard attacks, but you provoke AoO, unless you have Imp.Sunder. :fight!:

Cleave = no, as the hydra itself is still alive & kicking, or biting in this case. (see quote above) :fight!:

Chain Lightning = only arcs to entirely individual creatures, not parts of their anatomy. (again see quote above) :mage:
orionm42
12-13-05, 10:38 AM Actually, the sticking point in this is that the HYdra's heads ARE considered seperate opponents. They can be targeted seperately from the main body. It is the only creature I know of that has this "feature". Ettins do not have that in their writeup.

Where does it say the heads are separate opponents? I must have missed that.

The Hydra's description allows for this special sunder tactic. However, allowing a character to sunder a head does not mean that the heads are separate opponents for the purposes of allowing a whirlwind attack. If the game's designers meant for each head to function as a separate opponent, the monster manual description would say "treat each head as a separate opponent for purposes of cleave, whirlwind, etc."
ravenspawn
12-14-05, 01:27 AM Where does it say the heads are separate opponents? I must have missed that.

The Hydra's description allows for this special sunder tactic. However, allowing a character to sunder a head does not mean that the heads are separate opponents for the purposes of allowing a whirlwind attack. If the game's designers meant for each head to function as a separate opponent, the monster manual description would say "treat each head as a separate opponent for purposes of cleave, whirlwind, etc."

I re-read the Hydra entry in the MM. Nowhere does it state that the heads are actually seperate foes. Plus, if you think about how Sunder works, that maneuver simply allows you to attack an item held/carried by your foe (weapon, shield, wand, amulet, etc) and the hydra entry lets you target the heads as a held item & break it, period.

And the hydra entry even has this quote concerning spells too
"...area effects deal damage to a hydra's body, not it's heads. Targeted magical effects cannot sever a hydra's heads (and must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts"

So, DarkWarriorKarg, the next time Latigo steps up to fight a hydra, I must say "No whirlwind for you" :evillaugh
Besides, if one allows Whirlwind & Cleave on certain body parts, one could target Beholder eyes & Marilith arms, etc.
Draco Strang
12-14-05, 02:04 AM I'm sorry, but the title of this post is about as classic as "I cast Magic Missile.....at the darkness!"

Forever, will it be burned into my mind.
Millennium
12-14-05, 02:21 PM Targeting a hydra's head is basically the same thing as sundering an object held by the hydra. The SRD is unclear as to whether a head should be considered a weapon or an ordinary object (though I think it's safe to assume that a head isn't considered a shield). Also, no hardness is mentioned for hydra heads, though I think it's safe to assume that the hardness is 0.

Ahem. As for your specific questions:
...but what about other feats; would Whirlwind Attack feat be applicable? If you can target each head with the Sundering maneuver, can you think of each head as a seperate foe for purposes of Whirlwind Attack?
Strictly speaking, no, and so using Whirlwind Attack wouldn't be wise: you'd only get to hit the hydra once because there's only one of it. However, you can use a full attack action to make many sunder attempts at a single opponent: as many attempts as you have attacks, if that's what you want. For someone who wanted to sever many heads in a single round, this is what I would advise.

There's only one difference between these two tactics, but that difference has a very real effect. When you use a Whirlwind Attack every attack is at your highest BAB, but when you use a regular full attack, your attack rolls go down the line as usual.
And then i think of Great Cleave, cut off a head and wack another head?
Again, the problem is that there's only one hydra, and you drop one opponent you have to Cleave a different one. So no, technically you couldn't do this.

That said, if you had Great Cleave and a truly absurd damage bonus and you were facing two hydras, you could theoretically "bounce" back and forth between them. You'd be severing heads left and right, as it were.

I admit, however, that this is kind of silly. At the same time, if you decide to allow the character to cleave multiple heads off the same hydra, you'll need a way to figure out how many heads are within reach at any given time.
...then the wizard of the group asks if he can have his Chain Lighting arc to the heads as secondary targets? I allowed it that once but ruled that secondary arcs must to towards other individual entities.
No, but not for the reason you might think. It's not that the heads are part of a single creature, but that Chain Lightning can't target the heads at all!
Targeted magical effects cannot sever a hydra’s heads (and thus must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts.
Chain Lightning doesn't do slashing damage, nor can it be used to sunder. Flavor-wise you might say that it hits the creature's head, but mechanically any hit with this spell would count as a body hit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ravenspawn 12-11-05, 10:08 PM	I've had a situation where the PC's in my campaign encountered a hydra. Now the MM specifically states that characters w/o the Imp. Sunder feat will find it difficult and dangerous... :pile: :ahem: ...but what about other feats; would Whirlwind Attack feat be applicable? If you can target each head with the Sundering maneuver, can you think of each head as a seperate foe for purposes of Whirlwind Attack? And then i think of Great Cleave, cut off a head and wack another head? :thinks: :rolleye2: ...then the wizard of the group asks if he can have his Chain Lighting arc to the heads as secondary targets? I allowed it that once but ruled that secondary arcs must to towards other individual entities. Can anyone give me some feedback? :help: Thanks!!
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 12-11-05, 11:08 PM	If the campaign uses action points, I'd say that if he has Improved Sunder and Whirlwind Attack he could blow an action point and he could do it, but even then he would need to still have Improved Sunder. In the case of Cleave, no problem. Sunder through one and the force carries the blow into another head. As for Chain Lightning, it wouldn't be particularly game breaking, but it also would lack consistancy. The point is that the lightning would arc to a whole other body. In this case, it wouldn't necessarily arc since the heads are all physically attached to the SAME body. Again, I'd say blow an action point to do it.
Zorminster 12-12-05, 01:46 AM	if you want to be really stringent on the rules: take the hydras largest facing and assume the heads lines up across this facing. Then, divide by the number of heads. this gives spacing from neck to neck on the best. Now, whats the melee's reach? If its 5 foot, assume he stands on an intersection- he can reach a all adjacent squares with whirlwind- so 3 squares on one face. Take the spacing and divide by 15'. thats how many heads could be whirlwinded at once. With cleave I would let it work no question, and with chain lightning I would let it arc to non-adjacent heads. thats not game breaking and its still fun for the players.
orionm42 12-12-05, 09:37 AM	WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL] Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Emphasis mine. The Hydra is one opponent. IMO, you cannot treat each head of a Hydra like a separate opponent...just like you cannot treat each head of an Ettin (or any other creature with more than one head) as a separate opponent.
DarkWarriorKarg 12-12-05, 10:44 PM	Emphasis mine. The Hydra is one opponent. IMO, you cannot treat each head of a Hydra like a separate opponent...just like you cannot treat each head of an Ettin (or any other creature with more than one head) as a separate opponent. Actually, the sticking point in this is that the HYdra's heads ARE considered seperate opponents. They can be targeted seperately from the main body. It is the only creature I know of that has this "feature". Ettins do not have that in their writeup.
Thrabar_Freehlem 12-13-05, 12:05 AM	For goodness sake, you know that you can actually target individaul areas on every creature. The heads of a hydra ar concidered seperate heads because they are just that, seperate heads, they still all have to act on the same turn, and they are all conected to the same body, counting them together to make a single creature. Therefore, a chain lightening attack techniqually hits every head to begin with and then shoots to other opponents around it. The sunder is used to cut off a head with a single hit so that way there isn't any time for its fast healing to take hold that round and grow it back. And great cleave and whirl wind don't effect it either, because it is only one monster with multiple heads. Remember, it is one monster, not several sharing the same body! Arear effects only heart the monster as a whole, not each head seperatley, I know this wasn't discussed, but I thought that I would throw that one in.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 12-13-05, 12:49 AM	Think of the logic behind Cleave, though. It's the force of the blow carrying your attack clean through your opponent. When you deal enough damage to sever a head, it's entirely reasonable that your attack could lop it off and have enough force to go after another head.
ravenspawn 12-13-05, 01:07 AM	In future encounters with hydras, i will handle like this ; Whirlwind attack = yes, but you can hit 2-5 heads in a round as they dart in & out of reach, but you provoke AoO, unless you have Imp.Sunder. Cleave = no, as the hydra itself is still alive & kicking, or biting in this case. Chain Lightning = only arcs to entirely individual creatures, not parts of their anatomy.
ravenspawn 12-13-05, 01:12 AM	Think of the logic behind Cleave, though. It's the force of the blow carrying your attack clean through your opponent. When you deal enough damage to sever a head, it's entirely reasonable that your attack could lop it off and have enough force to go after another head. I see the sense in that, but just for my campaign, i think there are enough feats that can be used against a hydra as is (Imp Sunder & Whirlwind). Like some one else metioned, no other creature has specific rules about hitting it, not the Ettin or even the chimera.
Terraneaux 12-13-05, 02:10 AM	The Hydra's heads are not seperate opponents. Think of them as held items or weapons; that's why improved sunder gives you a benefit to attacking them.
ravenspawn 12-13-05, 10:23 AM	The Hydra's heads are not seperate opponents. Think of them as held items or weapons; that's why improved sunder gives you a benefit to attacking them. That's the best point i've read so far, thanks. So in future encounters with hydras, i will handle like this ; Whirlwind attack = no, but you can target the heads to sunder them with standard attacks, but you provoke AoO, unless you have Imp.Sunder. :fight!: Cleave = no, as the hydra itself is still alive & kicking, or biting in this case. (see quote above) :fight!: Chain Lightning = only arcs to entirely individual creatures, not parts of their anatomy. (again see quote above) :mage:
orionm42 12-13-05, 10:38 AM	Actually, the sticking point in this is that the HYdra's heads ARE considered seperate opponents. They can be targeted seperately from the main body. It is the only creature I know of that has this "feature". Ettins do not have that in their writeup. Where does it say the heads are separate opponents? I must have missed that. The Hydra's description allows for this special sunder tactic. However, allowing a character to sunder a head does not mean that the heads are separate opponents for the purposes of allowing a whirlwind attack. If the game's designers meant for each head to function as a separate opponent, the monster manual description would say "treat each head as a separate opponent for purposes of cleave, whirlwind, etc."
ravenspawn 12-14-05, 01:27 AM	Where does it say the heads are separate opponents? I must have missed that. The Hydra's description allows for this special sunder tactic. However, allowing a character to sunder a head does not mean that the heads are separate opponents for the purposes of allowing a whirlwind attack. If the game's designers meant for each head to function as a separate opponent, the monster manual description would say "treat each head as a separate opponent for purposes of cleave, whirlwind, etc." I re-read the Hydra entry in the MM. Nowhere does it state that the heads are actually seperate foes. Plus, if you think about how Sunder works, that maneuver simply allows you to attack an item held/carried by your foe (weapon, shield, wand, amulet, etc) and the hydra entry lets you target the heads as a held item & break it, period. And the hydra entry even has this quote concerning spells too "...area effects deal damage to a hydra's body, not it's heads. Targeted magical effects cannot sever a hydra's heads (and must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts" So, DarkWarriorKarg, the next time Latigo steps up to fight a hydra, I must say "No whirlwind for you" :evillaugh Besides, if one allows Whirlwind & Cleave on certain body parts, one could target Beholder eyes & Marilith arms, etc.
Draco Strang 12-14-05, 02:04 AM	I'm sorry, but the title of this post is about as classic as "I cast Magic Missile.....at the darkness!" Forever, will it be burned into my mind.
Millennium 12-14-05, 02:21 PM	Targeting a hydra's head is basically the same thing as sundering an object held by the hydra. The SRD is unclear as to whether a head should be considered a weapon or an ordinary object (though I think it's safe to assume that a head isn't considered a shield). Also, no hardness is mentioned for hydra heads, though I think it's safe to assume that the hardness is 0. Ahem. As for your specific questions: ...but what about other feats; would Whirlwind Attack feat be applicable? If you can target each head with the Sundering maneuver, can you think of each head as a seperate foe for purposes of Whirlwind Attack? Strictly speaking, no, and so using Whirlwind Attack wouldn't be wise: you'd only get to hit the hydra once because there's only one of it. However, you can use a full attack action to make many sunder attempts at a single opponent: as many attempts as you have attacks, if that's what you want. For someone who wanted to sever many heads in a single round, this is what I would advise. There's only one difference between these two tactics, but that difference has a very real effect. When you use a Whirlwind Attack every attack is at your highest BAB, but when you use a regular full attack, your attack rolls go down the line as usual. And then i think of Great Cleave, cut off a head and wack another head? Again, the problem is that there's only one hydra, and you drop one opponent you have to Cleave a different one. So no, technically you couldn't do this. That said, if you had Great Cleave and a truly absurd damage bonus and you were facing two hydras, you could theoretically "bounce" back and forth between them. You'd be severing heads left and right, as it were. I admit, however, that this is kind of silly. At the same time, if you decide to allow the character to cleave multiple heads off the same hydra, you'll need a way to figure out how many heads are within reach at any given time. ...then the wizard of the group asks if he can have his Chain Lighting arc to the heads as secondary targets? I allowed it that once but ruled that secondary arcs must to towards other individual entities. No, but not for the reason you might think. It's not that the heads are part of a single creature, but that Chain Lightning can't target the heads at all! Targeted magical effects cannot sever a hydra’s heads (and thus must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts. Chain Lightning doesn't do slashing damage, nor can it be used to sunder. Flavor-wise you might say that it hits the creature's head, but mechanically any hit with this spell would count as a body hit.