can someone clear this up? [Archive] - Wizards Community

can someone clear this up? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zog_Jakome
10-01-06, 02:05 PM why is it that a creature with a challenge rating EQUAL to its hit dice only adds 1 to its challenge rating when you add 4 HD?

according to the "improving monster rules" you need to add 4 HD to a creature with certain types just to add 1 to challenge rating. while true that sometimes when they increase in size it adds another.

for example a spell weaver (mm2 page 187) a monstrous humanoid with 10 HD is a CR 10. to increase to a CR 14 you need to add 12 HD (+1 CR for each 3 HD added) making this thing have 22 HD and able to cast spells as a 24 level sorcerer. (it says they cast spells as a sorcerer two levels higher than their HD)

I'm sorry but when I started to make him into a CR 14 I had to tone him down a bit because that was NOT a CR 14 by any stretch of the imagination. even if I just made him CR 11 he can still cast 8th level spells at least 3 times in three rounds and that seems that it would crush any party of 12th level players.

any clearity on this and I know actual CR's are actually my call but I wanted to throw this into the forums to see what other DM's do when they want to increase the CR's of low level monsters that fit the bill, but are too weak to be included in an adventure for 14th level characters.
Cornbread
10-01-06, 02:16 PM Well in most cases the HD for CR trade is alright. Where it falls apart is a monster with a special ability like the spell weaver one that is tied to HD. For something like that I would consider +1 HD = +1 CR, similar to PC caster classes.
Zog_Jakome
10-01-06, 02:39 PM yeah that is what I did but all monsters have their abilities tied to HD.

BAB, HP, skills, feats, possibly AC, attacks per round, saves, DC's for special attacks all these are tied to HD.

and another CR thing. why is it that a CR 14 creature should be defeated by 4 14th level characters easily but extremely hard for one on one but even worse if it is 1 14th level PC against 4 14th level creatures.

basically what I am asking is what is the difference between 1 PC who is 14th level and a CR 14 creature. when they go head to head it should be an interesting battle but most of the time the creature beats the PC.

to put it yet another way (for clarity)

CR # PC's level # kind of battle
14 1 14 4 normal
14 1 14 1 difficult
14 4 14 1 extremely hard

and don't say it's because we need to treat our PC's as superiors it should all be the same.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zog_Jakome 10-01-06, 02:05 PM	why is it that a creature with a challenge rating EQUAL to its hit dice only adds 1 to its challenge rating when you add 4 HD? according to the "improving monster rules" you need to add 4 HD to a creature with certain types just to add 1 to challenge rating. while true that sometimes when they increase in size it adds another. for example a spell weaver (mm2 page 187) a monstrous humanoid with 10 HD is a CR 10. to increase to a CR 14 you need to add 12 HD (+1 CR for each 3 HD added) making this thing have 22 HD and able to cast spells as a 24 level sorcerer. (it says they cast spells as a sorcerer two levels higher than their HD) I'm sorry but when I started to make him into a CR 14 I had to tone him down a bit because that was NOT a CR 14 by any stretch of the imagination. even if I just made him CR 11 he can still cast 8th level spells at least 3 times in three rounds and that seems that it would crush any party of 12th level players. any clearity on this and I know actual CR's are actually my call but I wanted to throw this into the forums to see what other DM's do when they want to increase the CR's of low level monsters that fit the bill, but are too weak to be included in an adventure for 14th level characters.
Cornbread 10-01-06, 02:16 PM	Well in most cases the HD for CR trade is alright. Where it falls apart is a monster with a special ability like the spell weaver one that is tied to HD. For something like that I would consider +1 HD = +1 CR, similar to PC caster classes.
Zog_Jakome 10-01-06, 02:39 PM	yeah that is what I did but all monsters have their abilities tied to HD. BAB, HP, skills, feats, possibly AC, attacks per round, saves, DC's for special attacks all these are tied to HD. and another CR thing. why is it that a CR 14 creature should be defeated by 4 14th level characters easily but extremely hard for one on one but even worse if it is 1 14th level PC against 4 14th level creatures. basically what I am asking is what is the difference between 1 PC who is 14th level and a CR 14 creature. when they go head to head it should be an interesting battle but most of the time the creature beats the PC. to put it yet another way (for clarity) CR # PC's level # kind of battle 14 1 14 4 normal 14 1 14 1 difficult 14 4 14 1 extremely hard and don't say it's because we need to treat our PC's as superiors it should all be the same.